GEM loan refused :(

ciara84

So I got a 72 in my GAMSAT last year in london, I have a first class degree in Bachelor of Commerce from UCC and a MBA from Smurfit Business school UCD.... got offered RCSI in round zero..... why did I get refused? because I took out a loan to finance my MBA (which costs 30,000 euro), and it isnt fully paid back (still owe 20k)... this is utter crap, anyone have any ideas as to what I should do?.... I recently came back to Ireland after quitting my job which was at one time my dream job as a financial analyst at the United States Federal Reserve of Boston in America just so I could study medicine and pursue my new found dream of helping people after I graduate, and now I get smacked in the face with this.... bank that refused me was AIB westmoreland street by the way, and my previous loan is also with AIB..., they said they wouldn't absorb it into the 100k alloted for the GEM because in one year I can only withdraw 25k....... any ideas anyone? i feel like my life has crashed and burned.

Mack_1111

Try the other banks! I know BOI give loans to UCC GEM students and Ulster bank to UL. They might give you a loan.

Have you tried looking for a routine student loan, I think most banks give a lot of credit to med students, (a lot more than to any other students), it won't be as big as the GEM loans but it might get you through! Talk to your local branch about it!

ciara84

hey! thanks for the quick reply.... I just rang AIB belfield which is my own branch, and they do the UCD GEM fees etc so they know all about it too, they said I already have way too much student loan on my hands and they wouldn't give me any more money until my MBA loan is paid back especially since I dont have a job anymore....... i was about to scream at her "how the F am I supposed to have a full time job and study medicine at the same time" but I held back.... I think I might apply to the UK for next year, my GAMSAT score is still valid and I believe they still have free fees? can anyone confirm?.... otherwise finding a job isn't going to be easy especially since I dont have a great explaination for why I left my last job.... *sigh*

pollypigwash

That's ****ty! Have you considered bringing a case to them for limiting the amount you can take out to 20,000 a year? The total comes out the same for the bank. It would obviously mean working an extra bit during uni and getting a financial job in the summers to make some cash. There are funds in place for students under severe financial pressure in all uni's too. It wouldnt be easy but iif you know what you want to do, I guess it's an option worth exploring.

Mack_1111

I'm sure the fees are a lot cheaper in the UK, I got into RCSI last year as a mature student, (did crap in the GAMSAT so 5 years for me), so am still familiar with it all.

GAMSAT results are valid for 2 years but in the UK they only get you to an interview stage, there's still a selection procedure after that so use your year to 'box tick'. Also not all the UK universities use GAMSAT, some of them have an exam called: MCAT, UKCAT (I think that's what the're called, a quick google search will clarify it) consider taking these to improve your chances!

The're crying out for doctors in Australia so they might have some offers!!

Best of luck

ciara84

thanks for the replies again guys! polly, I wasnt intending on taking out any more than the fees anyway, and I explained this to them as I would have been sharing with my sister and my parents would have been happy to chip in for some of the living cost but I dont think they'd ever be able to pay the 15-16,000 fees at such short notice... Mack, I didnt think I would be eligable for the undergrad course or the mature entry since I have a first class degree... can anyone confirm if you can apply with a GAMSAT score to undergraduate courses? i.e. in UCD/trinity/RCSI? & I used to be a cadet leader in the order of malta back in my college and secondary school years... (about 10 years in total as a cadet/cadet leader) would this be decent experience for the UK entry?

imported_guy

i'm starting to believe GEM is only for the rich now

if you only wanted the money for the fees then it wouldnt have to be much more than 50-60k! dont give up! you can try other countries not just UK if you're hell bent on doing it!

Sid_Justice

I'm not sure if these are honest approaches:

1. Get a loan credit union / other bank / friends / family for 20k and clear your MBA loan
2. Go back to AIB or a different bank (perhaps don't disclose original loan)

Your options are fully open in UK, it's much cheap (wtih NHS subsidies). You'd breeze into St Georges, you'd get a good chance at loads of others (but depends on your interview).

You can apply to undergraduate courses, e.g. TCD as a mature student. Gamsat isn't a requirement, they may look favourably on it because it's a very good score. You can apply to an undergraduate course as a undergraduate but would require you doing Leaving cert and HPAT.

However all of the above would be cheaper than GEM-ireland route, would still cost 10s of 10,000s.

kermicrzy

With scores like that you would make the cuttoff for University of Sydney and Queensland if you were interested in moving to Oz. Although I assume you want to stay in Ireland. But with a score like that you'll get places where GAMSAT is used

Best of luck

ciara84

Sid, I wont be able to get another loan simply because I dont have a job, and AIB have started hounding me since I quit my last job as well, but repaying the MBA loan isnt a problem and they've bought the idea so far.... but lying to them just wont work because they asked for my previous bank statements from here and over in the states.... and kermicrzy, I'd say the fees in australia are equally as absurd?

chanste

Wow just seen this and am pretty shocked that they are willing to give the €100k but not absorb your loan. 2 years ago AIB absorbed about €18k of my previous loans and credit cards etc. It made living without work tough but not impossible.

I wouldn't lose heart just yet though, you seem to have a strong enough background that you wouldn't be a bad bet for any financial institution. Perhaps a parent or someone will allow you to put your existing loans in their name (which will have its own probs but I'd imagine if your parents have a house they shouldn't have too many problems). I know that would be a big ask, but it would only necessarily be in their name, with the money from AIBs €100k that you were expecting to pay off the existing loan with, you should easily be able to manage repayments from same albeit to the loans which would then be in your parents name.

Best of luck

spagboll

Suggest to AIB that you have a structured repayment of the 20k (MBA) per year while you study med from the 100K (GEM Loan) over the 4years, this means that you'd only owe AIB 100k+interest at the end however, you'd have only about 19k for fees and living expenses, a part time job or help from parents or whatever would be required.

Mack_1111

Hey, RCSI will consider you as a mature student even if you qualify for the GEM programme, I don't think UCC & UCD will though. Unfortunately the fees for mature students are similar to the GEM fees and are for 5 years as opposed to 4 so I'm not sure if that's any better.

One other thought, a friend of mine got into Glasgow university as an undergrad 3 years ago, he just needed to sit Chem & biol in the leaving cert, his fees are 100% free

Send me a PM if you have any more Q's

HeadPig

Don't take this personally, but if I were a bank manager I would not offer a new loan to somebody with 20k outstanding debt.

imported_guy

HeadPig wrote: »

Don't take this personally, but if I were a bank manager I would not offer a new loan to somebody with 20k outstanding debt.

lol thats not how banking works, you have to look at the risk of default, someone having previously worked at a HUGE bank and having had an MBA from the top irish business school isn't likely to default on miniscule loan like 20k, and I'm sure the OP is more familiar with banking than any of us posting in this thread and wont have a problem finding a job and paying atleast the MBA loan back. Besides, other people posting ITT have had their loans absorbed into the 100k... wonder why the OP got refused that.

OP, you should deffo check out the eastern europe sticky on the forum, there may be schools in hungary etc willing to take you on.

Mack_1111

I looked at the schools in Hungary, the're approx €15K a year so a hefty loan is still required. With a GAMSAT of 72 the UK is the best bet.

hattie

You can apply to Trinity, UCG, UCC and RSCI as a mature student with a 2.1 or greater degree (but not UCD). However some have their own entry requirements (based on science subjects) so you should check if you are aligible-although you could go and sit one this year if you that is an issue and then you would be eligible. You will have to pay for undergraduate fees and course is 5 years. If you are applying to the UK work experience is considered fairly important and would suggest that you would need to get stronger work experience in place in the cmoing months. Some universities however focus on academic strenghts rather than work experience so given your high GAMSAT score and MBA you should look in to this and perhaps also consider taking the MCAT which will mean that more UK universities will be open to you. Certainly cheaper in UK but cost of living needs to be considered. Good luck!

MicraBoy

I'd make an appointment and go and see Georgina in AIB in Belfield. A sit down face to face and rational discussion about what you require might have more effect than a phone call. If that fails I'd be looking to see the bank manager too. You are definitely someone who has a large earning potential in the future no matter what happens, use that as leverage.

Best of luck!

ciara84

hey guys so I have an update... I really didnt want it to come to this but... well my Dad has decided to fund me for the first year of medicine... such a sweetheart!! so I guess I wont be needing the loan for the first year... on a side note... I saw somewhere that the minimum you can borrow somewhere is like 50k or something... is this true? so If i only need the fees for the last 3 years (and have my MBA loan paid), can I not just borrow that amount? there has been some great advice here! thanks guys! I wish I didnt have to ask my parents for money at this age... *sigh*

Biologic

Hi Ciara,

Really glad you got that sorted, I'd say the past few days were nightmarish.
Unless the terms of the loan have changed with AIB Westmoreland St for RCSI, you can borrow as little or as much as you want up to 25k per year. There was no minimum amount for us, and given the problems with credit lately I can't see them imposing a minimum amount of debt on anyone.
On a side note, I've posted a comprehensive breakdown of what GEP1 in RCSI will entail. It should be in the a few posts back on my post history if you want a look. There's a facebook page set up for your incoming class too. Most of your North American classmates will have recieved their offers a while back, so they've been posting on it for a while. Search for "RCSI GEP 2015" and you should find it.

Bio

Mack_1111

Hi Ciara, good news all the same. Best of luck

Annaroberts22

Hey guys,

I'm just wondering, how does this affect someone from the UK who has had a student loan there to do their BSc. Does this affect getting a loan from somewhere like AIB for GEM for Ireland or is that a different kind of loan compared to a direct bank loan such as the MBA loan Ciara was talking about.

Marcusm

imported_guy wrote: »

lol thats not how banking works, you have to look at the risk of default, someone having previously worked at a HUGE bank and having had an MBA from the top irish business school isn't likely to default on miniscule loan like 20k, and I'm sure the OP is more familiar with banking than any of us posting in this thread and wont have a problem finding a job and paying atleast the MBA loan back. Besides, other people posting ITT have had their loans absorbed into the 100k... wonder why the OP got refused that.

OP, you should deffo check out the eastern europe sticky on the forum, there may be schools in hungary etc willing to take you on.

Indeed that's not how banking works but I don't think you have a particularly good idea either. The Fed in Boston is effectively part of the regional civil service with similar levels of remuneration and is not a huge bank. 20k of debt for someone who followed up a primary degree with an MBA but who then abandons their job (overseas) without sorting out the financing for their next career path which will involve 4 years of no earning followed by 5-10 years of relatively low earning if in Ireland is not a risk I'd particualry be interested in financing.

ciara84

Annaroberts22 wrote: »

Hey guys, I'm just wondering, how does this affect someone from the UK who has had a student loan there to do their BSc. Does this affect getting a loan from somewhere like AIB for GEM for Ireland or is that a different kind of loan compared to a direct bank loan such as the MBA loan Ciara was talking about.

hey! just saw your reply..... My original loan was for about 30,000 + interest, I paid back alot of it as I was working with a great pay etc for a few years (about three times as much as an intern doctor when i first started lol), and if i had continued on I would have paid it back within the next two years. The loan had my dad as a guarantor incase something happens. But I got into my first choice of medical school so I'm happy out.

crazy dude

I'd say the thing to do is defer your entrance for a year and work hard to pay back your original loan for the MBA.
You'll get all sorts of advice about avoiding biting the bullet but in the end you need to deal with one part of your life at a time. Remember, it's outrageous money to do the GEP courses and the loan will be something you'll have for life I suspect. Docs start at something like 30,000 /year and I believe it's not much better in USA
...you could just about earn 25,000 a year and pay back AIB their money...then you'd be free to get next loan.

RobFowl

@ crazy dude You do realise you're replying to a year old thread and the the OP has got sorted?

crazy dude

RobFowl wrote: »

@ crazy dude You do realise you're replying to a year old thread and the the OP has got sorted?

Yes, but still it's crazy money and crazy debt to be getting into, wouldn't you agree? And at the end of the day is the AIB wise to be loading debt on students which may never be repayed in some cases except by the taxpayer ultimately? The taxpayer simply wants a health system that works and is value for money

Jammyc

crazy dude wrote: »

Yes, but still it's crazy money and crazy debt to be getting into, wouldn't you agree? And at the end of the day is the AIB wise to be loading debt on students which may never be repayed in some cases except by the taxpayer ultimately? The taxpayer simply wants a health system that works and is value for money

Can you please elaborate on how the taxpayer will ultimately pay for a GEM loan? I'm confused on that point.

RobFowl

crazy dude wrote: »

Yes, but still it's crazy money and crazy debt to be getting into, wouldn't you agree? And at the end of the day is the AIB wise to be loading debt on students which may never be repayed in some cases except by the taxpayer ultimately? The taxpayer simply wants a health system that works and is value for money

It is crazy money especially with the recent cutbacks. You're looking at a debt of about 100k on graduation with a starting salary of 30k going up to 60k over about 8 years (with a fair bit of mandatory overtime though).
I can't see there being a high risk of defaulting on the loans though so the taxpayer wouldn't be paying them off...

j.mcdrmd

QUOTE=crazy dude;80307710]I'd say the thing to do is defer your entrance for a year and work hard to pay back your original loan for the MBA.
You'll get all sorts of advice about avoiding biting the bullet but in the end you need to deal with one part of your life at a time. Remember, it's outrageous money to do the GEP courses and the loan will be something you'll have for life I suspect. Docs start at something like 30,000 /year and I believe it's not much better in USA
...you could just about earn 25,000 a year and pay back AIB their money...then you'd be free to get next loan.[/QUOTE]

This makes perfect sense to me. People need to realise that contracts for doctors are not honoured, therefore, it is impossible to budget for loan repayments.

Where are the Gems who have graduated already?

It is never too late to to tell the truth.

Jammyc wrote: »

Can you please elaborate on how the taxpayer will ultimately pay for a GEM loan? I'm confused on that point.

The HSE do not pay doctors. They bully them into working for 36 hour plus shifts, but they don't write it down on paper so as they don't have to pay for their hours. If they do not pay the doctors, the doctors cannot repay the loans, so the tax payer will have to.


This wouldn't bother me at all, except for I might get sick.

crazy dude

Well, same as a mortgage- if the student defaults who will ultimately pay only those who bail out crazy schemes and crazy prices...the taxpayer.
Is it really value for money? The lecturers, be they consultants or SpRs tell us they lecture for nothing quite often. By and large so far our clinical training involves taking histories...one pen and one notebook is all it costs. So what exactly costs 16 K plus?
Surely, if our future work involves unpaid hours then this should be factored into our fee structure by the HSE and thus give an incentive to stay in Ireland for training and give the HSE a more solid staffing to work from?
The problem in the medical profession is everyone is career focused and its obvious no one complains or seeks to bring about changes or come to anyone's attention whereas other HSE workers seem to be union focused and make sure they get everything they can off the HSE.

j.mcdrmd

crazy dude wrote: »

Well, same as a mortgage- if the student defaults who will ultimately pay only those who bail out crazy schemes and crazy prices...the taxpayer.
Is it really value for money? The lecturers, be they consultants or SpRs tell us they lecture for nothing quite often. By and large so far our clinical training involves taking histories...one pen and one notebook is all it costs. So what exactly costs 16 K plus?
Surely, if our future work involves unpaid hours then this should be factored into our fee structure by the HSE and thus give an incentive to stay in Ireland for training and give the HSE a more solid staffing to work from?
The problem in the medical profession is everyone is career focused and its obvious no one complains or seeks to bring about changes or come to anyone's attention whereas other HSE workers seem to be union focused and make sure they get everything they can off the HSE.

The first point I agree with, crazy schemes etc. sure how can a poor student pay for that?

The last point is wrong though, the problem is that everyone who is serious about medicine is patient focused, the HSE are not.

crazy dude

HSE not patient focused? Yes. It's really an employer of office staff and run by the likes of IMPACT and its importance is in maintaining people in employment ....fulfilling the health needs of the Public is secondary.

But the system of medical training diverts from patient focus ultimately or more precisely it diverts the people who are the frontline of the health system from ever changing the system logically because they are applying the bandaid and stretching themselves to fill in the gaps in the system rather than assuming control of the system.
Ciara88 has an MBA for example. How many GEPS have incredible qualifications in business or engineering. Its a huge potential resource available to the medical profession to lead change in the HSE in a positive patient focused way rather than the type of change IMPACT brings about.

About the cost of GEP medicine? The real danger is that with a noose around your neck you become money focused as you grow into the profession. Its potentially a big noose.
Universities "Not for profit businesses"? There are plenty of small businesses who never seem to declare a profit because every Tom, Dick and Harry in their family is "on the books" being paid a wage to reduce profit and hence tax liability. Think for a minute. If you are funded by SFI as a researcher, then the University employs you as a lecturer, maybe even a Professor on 109,000 year, then maybe you are an external examiner for another university or a visiting Professor you can easily see how fees get diverted into staff wages in the same way the little corner shop diverts profits into "wages" for family members. What if you are also a consultant? You then have your practice wages.
I'd love to see transparency as to why our fees are so high or why a north american needs to pay 55k? Especially when there appears to be a whole host of junior docs who give lectures for free and training for free to us.
In a country where wages are being cut why are fees not being cut? It doesn't make sense unless university staff are exempt from wage cuts and in fact are demanding more when everyone has less?