The Pale - boundaries?

eas

Hi all,

Please excuse the ignorance, maybe there isn't a simple answer to this, but can anyone confirm one way or the other if Wicklow was in or out of the Pale? Specifically as south as Wicklow Town. Seems the boundaries vary depending on sources.

Fratton Fred

Where was the ditch and is it still visible?

MarchDub

eas wrote: »

Hi all,

Please excuse the ignorance, maybe there isn't a simple answer to this, but can anyone confirm one way or the other if Wicklow was in or out of the Pale? Specifically as south as Wicklow Town. Seems the boundaries vary depending on sources.

The Pale did change in early days but the official boundaries of the Pale were outlined by Statute in 1488. The residents of the outer boundary were required to build a ditch and six foot bank. Years ago when I was in school I remember going to see what remained of it someplace.

I have a number of maps that relate to the period in various history books so you should be able to find the boundaries in history maps.

The reason for the high bank was to repel the native Irish from raiding the Pale.

slowburner

Good link here
It is worth a read through, especially for an idea of where the physical boundary lay (:o, yet again :rolleyes:)
It seems that Wicklow town and indeed anywhere south of the Dodder was outside the pale, in 1488 anyway.

eas

excellent link, thanks. That seems more conclusive than anything I've found.

It seems there is confusion between the physical pale (ditch & wall) and a more figurative pale that may lie outside the ditch/wall boundaries but still be under English rule. Maybe this is why there is such a variance.

thank again

MarchDub

eas wrote: »

It seems there is confusion between the physical pale (ditch & wall) and a more figurative pale that may lie outside the ditch/wall boundaries but still be under English rule. Maybe this is why there is such a variance.

The confusion comes from what was within English control and what still lay outside - and this changed as control expanded. Central to this at the time was the developing county system - the shirring of Ireland as it is called. As English law was extended the county boundaries developed and were named by the authorities. During the 1530s a new county Westmeath was outlined just beyond the Pale boundary and Sheriffs were appointed to the Wicklow area thus extending English control. But Wicklow I think has the distinction of being the last county in Ireland to be shirred - in late Elizabethan times? - because of the rebellious Irish septs there.



Margaret MacCurtain has done some good work on the shirring. It's not something that's well covered in many publications though.

woodsy2

MarchDub wrote: »

But Wicklow I think has the distinction of being the last county in Ireland to be shirred - in late Elizabethan times? - because of the rebellious Irish septs there.

Yup, it was shired in 1606. I took part, men in tights style, in a 400th year reenactment. There was already a lord of somesort and sherrifs in the castle (now massiveley ruined) on the hill in newcastle, and when the county was shired they moved down to wicklow town.

I was always confused about the extent of the pale. I've heard that the outer reaches went as far as the medieval settlement of rathdown, on the southern slopes of bray head, and that there are the remains of a pale ditch in someone's back garden in newcastle (that last one's a bit of a stretch methinks )