Organic Farming

Tipp Man

Any organic farmers on here?

Is so what enterprise and how do you get on?

anybody know what kind of money organically reared cattle are making for slaughter?

JohnBoy

I've been doing some thinking on this recently, looking into it in more detail.

I had long wondered if there was the potential for a better return in organic farming on the basis that while your output would be lower that could be offset by lower costs too.


The way I see it the only way to really make organic farming work is to run a traditional mixed farm.

Organic feeds for cattle are very expensive, organic weed control in grassland can be expensive/time consuming too.

The way I see it you need some organic tillage to produce the feed to winter your cattle, and some sheep to keep the paddocks clean. Grass in your tillage rotation will also help with weed control and soil condition.


I havent done any solid research into it, but I do think it's the only way that makes sense, it also spreads your risk of being dependant on one single product for sale.


the flipside is that it is much more labour intensive.

Birdnuts

JohnBoy wrote: »

I've been doing some thinking on this recently, looking into it in more detail.

I had long wondered if there was the potential for a better return in organic farming on the basis that while your output would be lower that could be offset by lower costs too.


The way I see it the only way to really make organic farming work is to run a traditional mixed farm.

Organic feeds for cattle are very expensive, organic weed control in grassland can be expensive/time consuming too.

The way I see it you need some organic tillage to produce the feed to winter your cattle, and some sheep to keep the paddocks clean. Grass in your tillage rotation will also help with weed control and soil condition.


I havent done any solid research into it, but I do think it's the only way that makes sense, it also spreads your risk of being dependant on one single product for sale.


the flipside is that it is much more labour intensive.

Which suggests that its the type of farming we had only a few decades ago - before we joined the EU.

PS: The sad thing is if you look at the way farming has gone post 73' its been mostly negative in terms of farmer numbers, primary producer prices and various rural environmental problems over the years(some of which have thankfully been addressed by the likes of REPS etc. in recent years):( etc.

JohnBoy

yeah, it was basically organic farming, I'm just not sure you can apply modern single system farming principles to organic farming. things were done that way for a reason, we only moved away from doing things that way because chemicals allowed us to.


(note I'm not some organic, sackcloth wearing lefty)

Grecco

Tipp Man wrote: »

anybody know what kind of money organically reared cattle are making for slaughter?

Most of the Organic cattle end up been sold as commercial cattle

moy83

Grecco wrote: »

Most of the Organic cattle end up been sold as commercial cattle

Is there no market for them ? I thought i heard that the cattle didnt make much more c/kg but surely there would be enough of a market for the few organic cattle in the country

Birdnuts

JohnBoy wrote: »

yeah, it was basically organic farming, I'm just not sure you can apply modern single system farming principles to organic farming. things were done that way for a reason, we only moved away from doing things that way because chemicals allowed us to.


(note I'm not some organic, sackcloth wearing lefty)

Well I suppose someone going down this route could certainly learn alot from old-timers who were farming pre-73. Plus theres alot of books and online resources to help now too. Increasing numbers of people are already doing it on a small scale as allotments, keeping hens, goats and general self sufficiency becomes ever more popular.

PS: I hate terms like sackcloth, treehugger etc. too!! - terms like thats always spoil debates on so many relevant topics

holidaygirl

I'm a part time organic farmer. All mine all go to slaughter mainly to Good Herdsmen in Cahir http://www.goodherdsmen.com/main.html

To be honest they don't make much more than conventional per kg. But I'm doing ok with them.

Tipp Man

holidaygirl wrote: »

I'm a part time organic farmer. All mine all go to slaughter mainly to Good Herdsmen in Cahir http://www.goodherdsmen.com/main.html

To be honest they don't make much more than conventional per kg. But I'm doing ok with them.

Yeah i'm not far from Cahir- only 5-6 miles from Ballybrado

so what kind of money per kg would you be getting at slaughter? do you have a contract with goodherdsmen or do you just sell to them on spec? whats the market like for organic beef?

JohnBoy

holidaygirl wrote: »

I'm a part time organic farmer. All mine all go to slaughter mainly to Good Herdsmen in Cahir http://www.goodherdsmen.com/main.html

To be honest they don't make much more than conventional per kg. But I'm doing ok with them.

tell us more!!!!

Birdnuts

moy83 wrote: »

Is there no market for them ? I thought i heard that the cattle didnt make much more c/kg but surely there would be enough of a market for the few organic cattle in the country

There are a number of specialist butchers that sell it, along with farmers that have contracts with certain high end restuarants and resorts. Alot is sold via farmers markets too.. In the UK were the industry is much more developed, the likes M & S etc. have their own organic brands.

johngalway

Friend of mine went Organic to produce "aged lamb" to turn into burgers. Was talking to him one day and he reckoned Organic bagged ration was €17 a bag. It's good we were hill walking at the time, as the two sticks I was walking with helped with the weakness I had after that shock.

Tipp Man

johngalway wrote: »

Friend of mine went Organic to produce "aged lamb" to turn into burgers. Was talking to him one day and he reckoned Organic bagged ration was €17 a bag. It's good we were hill walking at the time, as the two sticks I was walking with helped with the weakness I had after that shock.

Yeah apparently the tillage side of it is underdeveloped so things like bagged ration cost a fortune - which is why as JohnBoy said most organic farmers seem to have a bit of tillage as well for their own stock

This wouldn't be a problem for us

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

Friend of mine went Organic to produce "aged lamb" to turn into burgers. Was talking to him one day and he reckoned Organic bagged ration was €17 a bag. It's good we were hill walking at the time, as the two sticks I was walking with helped with the weakness I had after that shock.

I suppose thats were the old style "mixed" farming comes in - back in the day farmers would have produced their own oats/barley to feed to the animals without having to buy in anything.

reilig

Birdnuts wrote: »

Indeed these are very serious allegation which have the making of something that needs to be brought to the attention of the authorities!!

TBH

To be honest, it has been brought to the authorities on numerous occasions and by numerous people. There has been no action against this farmer. To us, looking across the ditch, it appears that Organic farming is an excuse for him to be able to treat his animals so badly.

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

I suppose thats were the old style "mixed" farming comes in - back in the day farmers would have produced their own oats/barley to feed to the animals without having to buy in anything.

Well, see, that's grand - if you can. My mate can't. Thought I don't believe he feeds anyway. Most of his land is North facing rough grazing in Connemara in an area of very highrailfall. Hard to grow crops on that Cattle would likely need sheds, and there'd be issues with poaching as most of it would be blanket bog.

Mixing one sheep with another is about as mixy as it can get for him

holidaygirl

Tipp Man wrote: »

Yeah i'm not far from Cahir- only 5-6 miles from Ballybrado

so what kind of money per kg would you be getting at slaughter? do you have a contract with goodherdsmen or do you just sell to them on spec? whats the market like for organic beef?

At the moment and for the last while it's 0.40 c/kg more, it used to be as good as 0.80 c/kg. No contract with them but they can take as many as I can supply.

F.D

I think everyone would like to farm a bit more in an organic fashion but what has driven people into one line of production be it beef or dairy tillage is if you run a mixed system you cant make enough out of all of them to make a living, but by focusing on one you can get the output and number up to hopefully achieve this
I think a report was done in the UK a few year back that the only organic systems that were profitable were the ones with large acreages to do the mixed farming, grow your own setup, otherwise an off farm job or some form of diversification was needed, i could be wrong on this but i'm sure i read some article on it somewhere

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

Well, see, that's grand - if you can. My mate can't. Thought I don't believe he feeds anyway. Most of his land is North facing rough grazing in Connemara in an area of very highrailfall. Hard to grow crops on that

I'm well aware there are parts of the country were growing even the likes of oats and cabbages can be a challenge. Though I have seen them grow quiet well in places like coastal North Mayo and Donegal. In any case over the vast bullk of the country such crops have been grown in the past and still do today in many cases.

Birdnuts

F.D wrote: »

I think everyone would like to farm a bit more in an organic fashion but what has driven people into one line of production be it beef or dairy tillage ere

Indeed and as I mentioned earlier I don't think is has been to the benefit of the averge Farmer. Another drawback of this style of production since the 70's is that is has massively increased the power of the middle-men ie. processors, big multiples etc. at the expense of both farmer and consumer. We all know were the real money is being made in Irish Farming:(

blue5000

Tipp Man wrote: »

Any organic farmers on here?

Is so what enterprise and how do you get on?

anybody know what kind of money organically reared cattle are making for slaughter?

I was talking to an organic farmer last week, he got 4e/kg for 2 and a half yr old angus bullocks off grass. The price of the organic grain as already said makes it uneconomic to feed it to cattle. So how can year round supply of fresh organic beef be done? Answer-import it from Argentina.

I reckon average farm size here is too small to provide a living for the amount of work involved. At one stage in Denmark there was so much organic milk being produced that there was no premium over conventional milk to be got.

Don't know who said it first;

'The best way to make a living out of organic farming is to write a book about it':pac:

johngalway

blue5000 wrote: »

'The best way to make a living out of organic farming is to write a book about it':pac:

:pac: Stands true for most things.

Birdnuts

blue5000 wrote: »

I was talking to an organic farmer last week, he got 4e/kg for 2 and a half yr old angus bullocks off grass. The price of the organic grain as already said makes it uneconomic to feed it to cattle. So how can year round supply of fresh organic beef be done? Answer-import it from Argentina.

I reckon average farm size here is too small to provide a living for the amount of work involved. At one stage in Denmark there was so much organic milk being produced that there was no premium over conventional milk to be got.

Don't know who said it first;

'The best way to make a living out of organic farming is to write a book about it':pac:

I think theres a danger of getting hung-up about strict definations of organic/part organic etc. At the end of the end of the day its in a farmers interest to reduce inputs to a minimum and sell his product at the highest premium he can get. The averge informed consumer wants top quality produce thats locally produced, as natural as possible in production and has the least exposure to chemical residues. Much livestock production in this country is already produced in a manner approaching this and I beleive its in both the farmers and consumers interest that farming is made as "sustaineable" as possible in this regard.The main obstacle to further progress in this area is the middle link in the chain ie. the processors and multiples who have simply become too powerfull to the detriment of farmers and consumer alike. Its no suprise that the fastest growing hobby ATM is stuff like private allotments, back garden chicken coops and the like. Increasing numbers of consumers simply are not satisfied with the current state of affairs.


PS: And this is not just a Western issue eithier - various food scandals in China have massivly boosted the market for more sustaineable produce there too.

johngalway

Thread open, some comments have been removed. Please keep on topic, thanks.

darman28

We are thinking of turning organic.Does anybody have any links to throw me please about government schemes, grants, how to convert, the steps to take, Time it takes etc, even afew links on mixed farm would be handy too.Been Trying to google info put can't seem to find much, I am not looking for options or hear say just looking for the facts please.Thanks:D

agcons

darman28 wrote: »

We are thinking of turning organic.Does anybody have any links to throw me please about government schemes, grants, how to convert, the steps to take, Time it takes etc, even afew links on mixed farm would be handy too.Been Trying to google info put can't seem to find much, I am not looking for options or hear say just looking for the facts please.Thanks:D

Lots of info at http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmingsectors/organicfarming/ re the schemes. www.organic-trust.org and www.iofga.org are the two organisations who look after the licensing and inspection process.
At the organic sale in Birr yesterday weanling heifers made up to €520 over and the bulls up to €450 over. Plenty of buyers. My personal experience of it, running a single suckler herd selling weanlings is that the big saving is no fertiliser bill, the extra income is the grant plus some years (like this one) a premium price for the stock. Extra costs are meal for the weanlings (paid 1650 for 3 ton of weanling ration delivered from Hi Peake, have to say it was worth it) and buying straw, plus the c500 annual registration fee. At it 9 years now and every year it has been more profitable than if we had stayed conventional.

Justjens

Been at organic beef production, suckler to beef, for nigh on 15 years, seen a lot of variation in price, some good some not so good.

There are plenty of pros and cons, straw bedding can be expensive, but that's your fertiliser. Stocking density for winter housing is the bane of any organic farmer, coupled with the unexpected phone call from the organic inspector in the middle of January ''are you home?''!!

Price for beef has been going up and down more regularly than conventional, €4.50/kg in May, then Tesco UK puled the contract from Slaney meats, sourcing from Uruguay now, price took a tumble and has stayed at €4/kg since. Not the first time organic prices have taken a tumble, at one stage it was close on 40% ahead until the consumer voted with their shopping basket. I have a U grade bullock at the moment and if the conventional price keeps rising guess where he'll be going!

Most of the beef produced goes abroad, AIBP sends their's to the UK, Good Herdsman the continent. So far AIBP are still paying a flat price, unsure of GH.

At Kilmallock organic sale the best weanlings did not stay in the organic system, one buyer bought all the top stock, it would be impossible to compete for a €900 weanling, feed it organic ration and expect to make a few quid. Breeding your own is the only answer, as locating stock is the problem. It takes two years for the stock to convert and then anything born on the farm is full symbol.

Taking the good with the bad, and availing of the organic subs which are no longer tied to REPS/AEOS, it's not a bad bet PROVIDING you have a sale for your product. I've been supplying AIBP since I started and do not usually have trouble getting cattle killed with plenty of forward notice, and I finish a few over the winter. It's possible to find organic grain that's not prohibitive, have a source for €375/t barley/wheat mix, pm me if you want details!

Veterinary treatment can be a problem, only one treatment per 12 months before it's excluded form symbol status, but with reduced stocking rates animals are less stressed and so less susceptible to disease. And the best part is not having to spend a fortune on fertiliser, I haven't a clue how much it costs at the moment, and I couldn't care!!

Certification cost has been rising and is based on acreage (used to be turnover!) and means another load of paper work, but then again what doesn't!!

tilting tim

I see in New Zealand that Fonterra are cutting their organic milk collection by half over the next few years, seems the problem is (like here with beef) that ordinary farming methods have become more sustainable and more consumer acceptable, so people are not willing to pay a premium price for organic.
Seems like farmers markets and direct selling could be the only way for it to work out worth the extra effort.

Birdnuts

tilting tim wrote: »

, seems the problem is (like here with beef) that ordinary farming methods have become more sustainable and more consumer acceptable, so people are not willing to pay a premium price for organic.
Seems like farmers markets and direct selling could be the only way for it to work out worth the extra effort.

Not so sure - the organic market continues to grow in most countries. I see in the US that spending on such products by people earning higher incomes has remainded robust and they are still endulging themselves on some of the finer things in life. Also the market for organics is growing rapidly in the new economic powerhouses like China and Malaysia - in the former due to various food contamination scandals in recent years. Indeed I was chatting with a Chinese business men while doing some work abroad recently and he told me that of his 3 businesses - clothing, property and importing organic products the fastest growth was in the fine food area which he got into since the big scandal over there involving contaminated baby food.

tilting tim

Didn't mean to sound negative about it, there definitely are consumers out there willing to pay a premium and the number of them will grow with population anyway, was just pointing out that if Fonterra are stepping back their organic production you can be sure it's because demand has dropped and margins are getting smaller.

k mac

How does the one vet treatment every 12 months work ? Say you had a calf that got a cold when young and had to be injected, then picks up a virus when weaned you can t treat her ? Or does it mean you can treat her but she loses the organic status

Justjens

k mac wrote: »

How does the one vet treatment every 12 months work ? Say you had a calf that got a cold when young and had to be injected, then picks up a virus when weaned you can t treat her ? Or does it mean you can treat her but she loses the organic status

There is no restriction on treating animals, their welfare comes first. If you do have to treat an animal twice in 12 months then that animal is ineligible to be killed as organic as she has lost her full organic status, or you could keep her for breeding!!!

Once a farm is fully organic it is accepted practice to be allowed to increase your breeding stock with conventional stock, without prior notice, to a max of 10%, and their progeny is considered fully organic as long as the cow/heifer does not calve within two or three months (unsure which it is!) of movement.

Keep any treated heifers for replacements as their calves will be organic, it does not matter about the status of the cow as there is no market for organic cull cows.

agcons

To accommodate people who cannot access Teagasc training during the working week National Organic Training Skillnet (www.nots.ie) are planning a 25 hour course running over the first two weekends in Dec in Kilcormac, Offaly.
To book or enquire Tel Network Manager Sean Mc Gloin at 0861728442 or tutor Eveline Gill at 086 3824042

BattyJoe

Anyone here in Organic Farming - with a Dairy Herd ?

If so , id love to hear from you - and how your getting on?

Im milking, and also have beef , and use very little fertilizer at moment, with no slatted shed.

Thinking of getting into Organic

Bodacious

Organic Farmer - beef Same as battyjoe except is there Anyone here in Organic Farming - with a beef Herd ?

If so , id love to hear from you - and how your getting on?



im in suckler beef but considering organic as im told it would suit those that have lower stocking rates to Ha and commonage would put me in this bracket.. chatting to neighbour and he reckoned don't bother your barney travelling to these specialist organic mart sales.. flog weanlings through conventional channels without a premium and get E220-E250 per hectare as a premium on top of DAS, SFP .. can it be done?

Justjens

Bodacious wrote: »

im in suckler beef but considering organic as im told it would suit those that have lower stocking rates to Ha and commonage would put me in this bracket.. chatting to neighbour and he reckoned don't bother your barney travelling to these specialist organic mart sales.. flog weanlings through conventional channels without a premium and get E220-E250 per hectare as a premium on top of DAS, SFP .. can it be done?

Most organic weanling producers sell at a conventional mart or direct from their yard, there is very little restriction on where you sell, advertise on the IOFGA website, you may not get any calls and then off to the mart!!

Probably the biggest stumbling block to organics is the winter housing, straw bed is the preferred but cubicles may be allowed, slats only is a big no no.

FarmerDougal

Bodacious wrote: »

Organic Farmer - beef Same as battyjoe except is there Anyone here in Organic Farming - with a beef Herd ?

If so , id love to hear from you - and how your getting on?

Did the course recently just out of curiosity. 250 per ha for 2 years only while in conversion then reduces to 150. Org beef price hit and miss and cattle often travel long distances to get slaughtered.
Org payments very grey area on commonage AFAIK. All farmers involved must adhere to standards I think.

Strict inspections and mountains of paperwork a given from what I seen.

I'm sure someone with tillage/beef could have a nice rotation going and increase there overall profit though.

Bodacious

FarmerDougal wrote: »

Bodacious wrote: »

Organic Farmer - beef Same as battyjoe except is there Anyone here in Organic Farming - with a beef Herd ?

If so , id love to hear from you - and how your getting on?

Did the course recently just out of curiosity. 250 per ha for 2 years only while in conversion then reduces to 150. Org beef price hit and miss and cattle often travel long distances to get slaughtered.
Org payments very grey area on commonage AFAIK. All farmers involved must adhere to standards I think.

Strict inspections and mountains of paperwork a given from what I seen.

I'm sure someone with tillage/beef could have a nice rotation going and increase there overall profit though.

Would you mind me asking what is the cost / duration of course? Any limit on hectares ? Will have to look into commonage and rented ground

Bodacious

Justjens wrote: »

Most organic weanling producers sell at a conventional mart or direct from their yard, there is very little restriction on where you sell, advertise on the IOFGA website, you may not get any calls and then off to the mart!!

Probably the biggest stumbling block to organics is the winter housing, straw bed is the preferred but cubicles may be allowed, slats only is a big no no.

I out winter and have no bother doing so .. Only thing is I'd need more housing to generate enough dung to replace compound NPK

FarmerDougal

Bodacious wrote: »

FarmerDougal wrote: »

Would you mind me asking what is the cost / duration of course? Any limit on hectares ? Will have to look into commonage and rented ground

220e org trust
50ha limit for per ha payments
Ground must be owned or leased for at least 5 years from year after year of application for org licence

lalababa

I would of though that getting basically just grass as feed , not spreading manmade fertiliser, and keeping the medicines to a minimum would be enough for organic. What does it matter if they are on slats? Good christ they'll be wanting pillows next. The world is mad , mad I tell you.:eek:

Deano7

lalababa wrote: »

I would of though that getting basically just grass as feed , not spreading manmade fertiliser, and keeping the medicines to a minimum would be enough for organic. What does it matter if they are on slats? Good christ they'll be wanting pillows next. The world is mad , mad I tell you.:eek:

I think their problem is with the slurry from slats.

FarmerDougal

Deano7 wrote: »

I think their problem is with the slurry from slats.

No problem with slurry. Can be imported from other farms as well. Its more of an animal welfare issue.

farm14

I read an article today on agriland & it said organic beef is €4.70/kg?

Midlandsman80

farm14 wrote: »

I read an article today on agriland & it said organic beef is €4.70/kg?

I had a pint watching the game last Sunday with a fella that farms a lot of organic cattle and also transports a lot of organic stock the factory and he showed me a price update on his phone of €4.85 per kg, didn't read what grades etc that was for..
A lot of extensive farmers and almost 90% of the way there so it's easy make a case for giving it a go.
Could you go mad reseeding and spraying etc (funds permitting) and start transition once done...

Deano7

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

I had a pint watching the game last Sunday with a fella that farms a lot of organic cattle and also transports a lot of organic stock the factory and he showed me a price update on his phone of €4.85 per kg, didn't read what grades etc that was for..
A lot of extensive farmers and almost 90% of the way there so it's easy make a case for giving it a go.
Could you go mad reseeding and spraying etc (funds permitting) and start transition once done...

What do ya do when u need a bottle of betamox?

FarmerDougal

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

I had a pint watching the game last Sunday with a fella that farms a lot of organic cattle and also transports a lot of organic stock the factory and he showed me a price update on his phone of €4.85 per kg, didn't read what grades etc that was for..
A lot of extensive farmers and almost 90% of the way there so it's easy make a case for giving it a go.
Could you go mad reseeding and spraying etc (funds permitting) and start transition once done...

Yes you can reseed spray and spread heap of bag manure the year before you start but you must stay in or production for at least 5 years or all payments up until then are pulled back

FarmerDougal

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

I had a pint watching the game last Sunday with a fella that farms a lot of organic cattle and also transports a lot of organic stock the factory and he showed me a price update on his phone of €4.85 per kg, didn't read what grades etc that was for..
A lot of extensive farmers and almost 90% of the way there so it's easy make a case for giving it a go.
Could you go mad reseeding and spraying etc (funds permitting) and start transition once done...

Yes you can reseed spray and spread heap of bag manure the year before you start but you must stay in or production for at least 5 years or all payments up until then are pulled back

Midlandsman80

Deano7 wrote: »

What do ya do when u need a bottle of betamox?

I thought most meds were allowed just longer withdrawal?
I am sure there are thousands of cattle per week getting killed here that have only grazed ground that was not fertilised in years and never seen a shot of betamox but these sellers are getting over 1/4 less than organic lads, I know it is not that simple but lads are not getting paid for a seriously product and the prospect of getting 1/4 more can't be ignored.
It won't suit everyone may not be as profitable per acre than the top 10% but for the large numbers of extensive farmers it's an obvious choice...

5live

Midlandsman80 wrote: »

I thought most meds were allowed just longer withdrawal?
I am sure there are thousands of cattle per week getting killed here that have only grazed ground that was not fertilised in years and never seen a shot of betamox but these sellers are getting over 1/4 less than organic lads, I know it is not that simple but lads are not getting paid for a seriously product and the prospect of getting 1/4 more can't be ignored.
It won't suit everyone may not be as profitable per acre than the top 10% but for the large numbers of extensive farmers it's an obvious choice...

Iirc, once 2 antibiotic treatments are given, the animal has to be sold as conventional beef/dairy animal.

I assume that is over the animals lifetime and not per year.

Also, you cannot vaccinate against a disease unless it has shown up in the herd.

Midlandsman80

5live wrote: »

Iirc, once 2 antibiotic treatments are given, the animal has to be sold as conventional beef/dairy animal.

I assume that is over the animals lifetime and not per year.

Also, you cannot vaccinate against a disease unless it has shown up in the herd.

Again not being smart but what % of cattle/farms have a vaccination programme other than for fluke etc