Touring Bike

godihatedehills

I don't want to hijack the touring thread but wanted to find out a bit of up to date info about touring bikes. I'm looking at my options for buying/putting one together.

My questions are, what touring frames (besides van nicholas) can you buy without buying an entire bike?

AND does anyone have any recommendations for full touring bikes available atm?

I'd be looking for something that could double as a winter training bike, other than that I'm open to all suggestions.

Thanks

Lumen

Surly Long Haul Trucker Road Frame 2011

edit: hmmm, top tube might be a bit long for drops, unless you get a 26" wheeled version. What sort of handlebars do you want?

mfdc

I am in the same boat considering building a touring bike. From what I've read the LHT is well regarded but only takes 9spd hubs, there's also the Surly Crosscheck which takes 10spd but loses a few brazeons. The Bob Jackson World Tour has been recommended a few times here too.

Coronal

I'm in a similar boat myself and was going to ask the question myself

There's the Obligatory Planet X option of the Uncle John or Kaffenback frames. Other than that, I was also looking at the Kinesis Crosslight 5 T. I'm not sure what else is out there, though.

godihatedehills

Lumen wrote: »

Surly Long Haul Trucker Road Frame 2011

edit: hmmm, top tube might be a bit long for drops, unless you get a 26" wheeled version. What sort of handlebars do you want?

drops deffo, I'm hoping it'll double jobby as a winter bike.

godihatedehills

Coronal wrote: »

I'm in a similar boat myself and was going to ask the question myself

I did trawl the search function and there's not much there, so I reckoned a new thread was justified (and it might lure blorg out of wherever he is....)

feck sake lads

thorn sherpa 600 wheels can buy frame from sjs cycles.
or the thorn club tour 700 wheels size.
both top end touring bikes.
and very well priced great service from sjs cycles .

ednwireland

is there anywhere in ireland i can get a decent handbuilt rear wheel ?

i have a kaffenback i built up from a frame would like a tiagra hub 36 spoke on a decent touring rim (mavic a719 ?)



currently have a tiagra on mavic open sport and its not really upto having my weight and panniers on it


OP sorry for thread hijack)

Lumen

feck sake lads wrote: »

thorn sherpa 600 wheels can buy frame from sjs cycles.

There's a fully built Thorn Sherpa for £1000.

The Modulo Morphus shifters are interesting.

Lumen

FWIW, I've used a Planet-X Uncle John cyclocross bike as a winter trainer, and whilst it did the job OK, it really didn't feel as nice to ride fast as a proper road bike. This was particularly noticable out of the saddle. The canti brakes were really quite crap in the wet, and whilst that could probably have been fixed with better pads and proper setup, I think cantis are always going to be a bit spongy when set up for powerful braking with drop bar levers.

I therefore think that a full tourer might be a bit hateful as a training bike, having even less racy geometry than a CX bike.

I guess it depends how weighty your touring gear is going to be, and what tyres you intend to run. If you can get away wuth a proper audaxy road bike with long drop caliper brakes, I'd go with that.

edit: and as far as long-reach calipers are concerned, the last time I researched this the best ones were reported to be the Grand Crus, available from Velo Orange and elsewhere. Presumably you need a frame designed with these in mind.

godihatedehills

Lumen wrote: »

FWIW, I've used a Planet-X Uncle John cyclocross bike as a winter trainer, and whilst it did the job OK, it really didn't feel as nice to ride fast as a proper road bike. This was particularly noticable out of the saddle. The canti brakes were really quite crap in the wet, and whilst that could probably have been fixed with better pads and proper setup, I think cantis are always going to be a bit spongy when set up for powerful braking with drop bar levers.

I therefore think that a full tourer might be a bit hateful as a training bike, having even less racy geometry than a CX bike.

I guess it depends how weighty your touring gear is going to be, and what tyres you intend to run. If you can get away wuth a proper audaxy road bike with long drop caliper brakes, I'd go with that.

Well, are there any frames that would be reasonable winter frames that would also take a carrier, touring wheels and cantilever brakes?

If so, then when I got home I could change the brakes and wheels back to normal and take off the carrier....ta dah, winter bike!

The thing is that I can get all the normal parts off a bike that has a cracked frame, and I can 'borrow' touring wheels, big brakes and a carrier from an unemployed tourer in the shed.

and edit....no camping gear, just light touring

Coronal

How suitable would an audax bike be for, say, extended touring. Something like a round the world. I've nothing planned, but I would like the option to be there should it ever come to pass.

If it works, then there are a myriad of other options. Top of my list would be

Van Nicholas Yukon - I love the slightly bowed seat stays on this bike.
Bob Jackson End to End.

In my case, weight wouldn't really be that much of an issue, so would i get away with 28 mm tyres?

mfdc

ednwireland wrote: »

is there anywhere in ireland i can get a decent handbuilt rear wheel ?

i have a kaffenback i built up from a frame would like a tiagra hub 36 spoke on a decent touring rim (mavic a719 ?)

I don't know about getting one in Ireland, but Parker will build you a 36 hole rear on a Tiagra hub w/ an A319 rim for about €85. I'd be interested to know if there's anywhere local that would build a pair up on A719s - that's what I originally was planning on getting until I found Parker's listing

Vélo

Dawes also do framesets.

The Ultra Galaxy with 853 steel tubing is £650.

Lumen

godihatedehills wrote: »

Well, are there any frames that would be reasonable winter frames that would also take a carrier, touring wheels and cantilever brakes?

If so, then when I got home I could change the brakes and wheels back to normal and take off the carrier....ta dah, winter bike!

Cantilever brakes attach to studs on the frame:



Calipers bolt through to a hole at the top:



If you're looking for a frame that will take either, that would be quite unusual.

godihatedehills

now we're getting places....

Jawgap

I was thinking about a tourer as well, and also a winter mount and something for potentially doing some audaxes.

Having had a good look around and carefully considering what type of touring I'd be interested in doing (credit card stuff mostly), I went with a Panet X Uncle John, which should hopefully be here next month.

I went with it because of cost and the fact that my "touring" is never likely to fall into the epic expedition category or see me bringing a tent. I wanted something with a bit of resilience and utility, that would take chunky tyres, mudguards and paniers as necessary.

The main complaint I've read about them relates to the brakes so I've gone for an upgrade there, but other than that they seem like a decent useful bike - a bit like a Swiss Army knife.

Who knows, I might even use it for cyclocross:)

ednwireland

the kaffenback only has canti mounts (i had em lying around anyway ) they stop me quick enough and only squeal when i dont keep and eye on them

theres no rear cable stop so i got one that clamps to the seatclamp or you could use v's

also for standard cantis the cable run through the rack is v tight on mine (but works)

Lumen

<treading water until Blorg arrives>

Here's pictures of his touring bike and his touring non-tourer.

You can see the difference in the brakes. He's using what look like v-brakes on the Van Nicholas, these attach to the canti studs.

There are various mechanical solutions for getting around the relative crapness of drop brake levers with cantis/v-brakes, including "travel agents". I would be inclined to consider v-brake specific levers and bar-end shifters, described here.

petethedrummer

ednwireland wrote: »

currently have a tiagra on mavic open sport and its not really upto having my weight and panniers on it

I have 36h ultergra hubs with open sport rims and I really like them. The only damage has been self inflicted (sprinting with panniers on, bag catches the spokes. I've done this twice now :rolleyes:).

They do the job for me and I'm convinced they roll way better than my aksiums, but have no way to measure. Are you looking to fit wider tyres? The Open sport is rated up to 32mm.

Back on topic. I like this LHT, even if it does look like a early 90's mountain bike.
http://www.cheekymonkey.com.au/Bikes.htm

Jawgap

I also had a look at Thorn and Sabbath, but found them too expensive and too much towards the "tourer" end of the spectrum.

Spa Cycles in Harrogate also do their own frames and bikes - http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b0s21p0

Enigma - http://www.enigmabikes.com/bike-list.html

Cost was the main issue why I didn't go with these.

ednwireland

petethedrummer wrote: »

I have 36h ultergra hubs with open sport rims and I really like them. The only damage has been self inflicted (sprinting with panniers on, bag catches the spokes. I've done this twice now :rolleyes:).

They do the job for me and I'm convinced they roll way better than my aksiums, but have no way to measure. Are you looking to fit wider tyres? The Open sport is rated up to 32mm.

Back on topic. I like this LHT, even if it does look like a early 90's mountain bike.
http://www.cheekymonkey.com.au/Bikes.htm

32mm is pretty much what the kaffenback will take on the rear (with a mudguard just after 3 years of abuse its going out of true a little too regularly so need a new wheel but just looking for a tougher alternative

godihatedehills

could you buy a normal aluminium frame and build it up with bigger than usual tyres and extra long drop calliper brakes and a carrier for your panniers?

It wouldn't be a touring bike per say, but it should get you across the camino or do for a few weekends away.

Coronal

For small trips, I'd even use a normal road bike. I toured in France and Switzerland with my SL Pro Carbon and a seatpost mounted rack. 25mm tyres and the only flat I got in 800 km was with a one inch nail. This was very light packing, though.

Lumen

godihatedehills wrote: »

could you buy a normal aluminium frame and build it up with bigger than usual tyres and extra long drop calliper brakes and a carrier for your panniers?

It wouldn't be a touring bike per say, but it should get you across the camino or do for a few weekends away.

A given frame will be built with a given amount of brake drop in mind. Sticking long-drop calipers on a race frame will just mean the brake pads miss the rim.

The purpose of using long-drop brakes is to reach over the big frame clearance that is required for larger tyres.

There are basically two variables to consider:

1. Tyre size and mudguard requirements.
2. How much weight you're going to carry.

Chips Lovell

If it's only light touring, then are mega tyres needed? Would it be possible to get away with the biggest tyres you could use for caliper brakes?

Lumen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If it's only light touring, then are mega tyres needed? Would it be possible to get away with the biggest tyres you could use for caliper brakes?

I think Tektro Bigmouth 57s will allow use of 35mm tyres, though probably not with full mudguards. They open wider than the Grand Crus which means you don't have to deflate the tyre to get the wheel out.

From here:



(not sure what tyre size that is)

edit: There are also Bigmouth 73s.

Caroline_ie

What about something like this? You can also just buy the frame.

petethedrummer

ednwireland wrote: »

32mm is pretty much what the kaffenback will take on the rear (with a mudguard just after 3 years of abuse its going out of true a little too regularly so need a new wheel but just looking for a tougher alternative

Maybe you just need to get the wheels overhauled. Dunno where you'd get that done in Donegal.

godihatedehills wrote: »

could you buy a normal aluminium frame and build it up with bigger than usual tyres and extra long drop calliper brakes and a carrier for your panniers?

A second hand Giant SCR. They are common as muck and have clearance for 32mm touring tyres. And rack mounts.

Or one of those On-one frames on planet-x they seem to have all sorts of crazy geometries and clearances and are dirt cheap.

Coronal

Presumably once you go above 25/28 mm tyres, you're getting back into the longer chainstays and higher fork clearance of CX/touring bikes anyway, negating the nice handling of a road bike anyway, no?

godihatedehills

google search wrote: »

Most bikes have braze-on mounts to accept the bolts that attach a rear rack. If your bike does not have these, you can still mount a rack using metal C clips that are included with the mounting hardware. These clips wrap around your bike's frame tubes and accept the lower mounting bolt.

Would a regular aluminum frame take a carrier and 2 panniers? (light load, 5kg each side say)

Lumen

Coronal wrote: »

Presumably once you go above 25/28 mm tyres, you're getting back into the longer chainstays and higher fork clearance of CX/touring bikes anyway, negating the nice handling of a road bike anyway, no?

I think it depends how the frame is designed. There are basically four aspects:

- seat tube angle and handlebar height (how much you are rotated back over the bottom bracket)
- steering trail
- chainstay length
- wheelbase

I think that of these, chainstay length and wheelbase are the least important, at least for "normal" amounts of tyre clearance. I reckon steering trail makes a big difference to the perceived handling.

I got 5mm or so added to the chainstays of my Enigma to allow use of a rear mudguard, and it still descends wonderfully and feels great out of the saddle.

Coronal

Custom, you say, eh? Oh dear, this is opening a whole new can of worms..

Coronal

Lumen wrote: »

I think it depends how the frame is designed. There are basically four aspects:

- seat tube angle and handlebar height (how much you are rotated back over the bottom bracket)
- steering trail
- chainstay length
- wheelbase

I think that of these, chainstay length and wheelbase are the least important, at least for "normal" amounts of tyre clearance. I reckon steering trail makes a big difference to the perceived handling.

But surely you can change the BB rotation factor reasonably easily. I mean, changing the seat tube angle by a degree isn't that hard, it's approximately 15 mm (assumung 80 cm from BB to saddle), which is within the capabilities of a zero setback post and shoving the saddle forward. And a CX bike should be reasonably fast feeling, right?

Sorry for the hikack and twenty questions. I'll go look at some more frame geometries

petethedrummer

godihatedehills wrote: »

Would a regular aluminum frame take a carrier and 2 panniers? (light load, 5kg each side say)

Those p-Clips are fine as a substitute for the upper seatstay mounts but not good as a substitute for the lower mounts. Too wobbly.
You'd need this: http://biketouringnews.com/carrying-stuff/racks/tubus-quick-release-adapter/

Also this is a handy page: http://www.thetouringstore.com/TUBUS/Fit%20Solutions/FIT%20SOLUTIONS%20PAGE.htm

Lumen

Coronal wrote: »

Custom, you say, eh? Oh dear, this is opening a whole new can of worms..

A chat with a decent framebuilder might be illuminating. That Bob Jackson crowd, for instance.

godihatedehills

What I would envisage after this chat would be something like a canyon alu frame (just to be different) built up with a normal triple groupset,

wider brakes:

Lumen wrote: »

I think Tektro Bigmouth 57s will allow use of 35mm tyres, though probably not with full mudguards. They open wider than the Grand Crus which means you don't have to deflate the tyre to get the wheel out

and stronger wheels + fatter tyres borrowed from an old tourer

and a rack:

petethedrummer wrote: »

Those p-Clips are fine as a substitute for the upper seatstay mounts but not good as a substitute for the lower mounts. Too wobbly.
You'd need this: http://biketouringnews.com/carrying-stuff/racks/tubus-quick-release-adapter/

(....awaiting advice on what bit of this won't work)

Coronal

godihatedehills wrote: »

What I would envisage after this chat would be something like a canyon alu frame (just to be different)

godihatedehills wrote: »

wider brakes:

This bit. It's not just brake clearance you need to worry about, it's also the frame itself. I doubt the Canyons will take more than a 28 mm tyre, if even that. Also, gigantic brakes may also not go high enough to reach the rims...

EDIT: what Lumen said

Lumen

...

Lumen wrote: »

A given frame will be built with a given amount of brake drop in mind. Sticking long-drop calipers on a race frame will just mean the brake pads miss the rim.

The purpose of using long-drop brakes is to reach over the big frame clearance that is required for larger tyres.

godihatedehills

Lumen wrote: »

...

Maybe I will just drive.....

Lumen

godihatedehills wrote: »

Maybe I will just drive.....

If you want an easy life, don't try and get a bike that does everything. It will be expensive and compromised.

Just focus on the touring requirement (light or heavy) and if the end result turns out to be useful as a winter trainer then all the better.

godihatedehills

Lumen wrote: »

If you want an easy life, don't try and get a bike that does everything. It will be expensive and compromised.

Just focus on the touring requirement (light or heavy) and if the end result turns out to be useful as a winter trainer then all the better.

ORRR buy a winter training bike and pack reeeaalll light???

Chips Lovell

godihatedehills wrote: »

ORRR buy a winter training bike and pack reeeaalll light???

Bikini and flip flops.

Lumen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Bikini and flip flops.

And a .38

blorg

There are many different types of tourers and certainly no one size fits all. A titanium audax bike like the Van Nicholas Yukon is a million miles away from a Thorn Sherpa. Then, you can do things with the Sherpa you can't do with the Yukon (and vice versa.)

A tourer will never be as nippy feeling as a road bike. My tourer, a Van Nicholas Amazon, is extremely light for a full tourer, but the difference is very noticeable between it and a road bike; it is more sluggish. Having said that, to an extent if you don't ride something else for a while you will get used to it. I rode it unloaded up six major cols in the Pyrenees and it felt fine, when I didn’t have something immediately beside it to compare with. Winter training is training, not racing, and I have used it on club spins in winter, although I have found it noticeably more difficult to keep up compared to my road bike. But that's training, right?

Coronal wrote: »

How suitable would an audax bike be for, say, extended touring. Something like a round the world. I've nothing planned, but I would like the option to be there should it ever come to pass.

Utterly, utterly unsuitable. I am doing an extended tour at the moment (14 months in, currently in Tibet) on 700x35c and frankly that isn’t enough for some of the road (and non-road) surfaces I have come up against. I manage, as it is what I have, but I would like wider- for comfort, safety (grip on bad surfaces), and durability (shock avoidance.)

If you are buying a bike to tour outside Europe/N America/Australasia you really want something with 26” tyres and wider tyres. You can get 26” spares anywhere in the world; 700c are very difficult to find in Asia, particularly the wider touring sizes (700x23 stuff is more readily available, but only in major centres, 26” almost any small town will have spares.) You can manage with almost anything, but 26” wide tyres are optimal if you don’t already have the bike. No 700c touring parts between Austria and Dubai, and again none until Kathmandu, where I was fortunate enough to get a few tubes (no tyres until China at least.)

For extended touring 10 speed is also more difficult to find parts for. This is manageable if you plan ahead, maintain your chain, and always carry at least one spare chain. 9 speed is fine for touring though and I suspect in many ways it would be more optimal- it is less finicky and easier to find replacement chains (in many countries high-end MTB is quite popular but not road cycling.)

On an around the world tour you must carry camping equipment. No way around this. So you will have more weight, and need the wider tyres. I am travelling pretty light for an extended tour at around 15kg luggage. If I didn’t carry a laptop and lots of electronic gadgets I could probably shave around 3-4kg off that.

Gearing is another consideration. I have a road triple 52-39-30 with an 11-28 cassette. I often find this inadaquate on the hills and very rarely use the 52. For any sort of extended touring, get MTB gearing. For short tours, credit card tours and audax type stuff, you may be happier with something closer to road gearing, although I think few people would be spinning out with say 48-12 as a high gear.

Audax with 700x28c would be fine for around Western Europe lightly packed and staying on tarmac. It is possible for Europe in general although not optimal (I rode to Istanbul on 700x28c tyres but wished I had wider in Eastern Europe.) I have also toured in Western Europe on 700x25c but again, not optimal.

I have also done credit card type stuff on my road bike, 800km around Ireland and the Raid Pyreneen; I used 700x23c for this but if I was doing it again I’d use 700x25c. Kept the saddlebag weight to 3.5kg, <1kg in a bar bag.

It is a tradeoff; the sort of bike that is optimal for off-road touring in Africa (something like the Sherpa) is not going to be the sort of bike that is fun to use as an unloaded road bike (something like the Yukon.) So you have to weigh up your priorities and decide. I do think my own Van Nicholas Amazon is a lovely bike and very versatile. It is not entirely optimal for cycling around the world, but it will do the job. It also does quite well unloaded for road riding up mountains, winter training and so on, if not as nicely as an audax bike.

If you can get multiple bikes I would do that, as any attempt at a 'one bike for everything' will result in a compromise. If you can only have one bike, I would lean towards something like the Yukon for general road riding and light touring around Western Europe, or something like the Amazon if you want to do general road riding and also go further/more heavily loaded. If you specifically want to cycle around the world, or for extended touring outside Europe (if it is a month or less you can cope on anything) then get something that will take wide 26” wheels.

Lumen

Blorg, what's your opinion/experience of mudguards for touring?

Coronal

Thanks for the fantastic reply, Blorg. The kit and bikes required for the various kinds of trips interests me a lot (it's an additional hobby for me), but I've found it hard to come by information on them.

Your thoughts on the Yukon vs. the Amazon were along the same lines as what I had in mind originally, but I wasn't sure how much I could get away with using the Yukon. That's been very nicely cleared up now

I got quite a bit caught up the "niceness" of a certain bike, and kinda forgot about the hardcore functionality in some cases. Either way, I still need to decide what kind of touring I want to do over the next while. So far, it's just small hops around Western Europe, but more options are always good.

Cheers!

ednwireland

petethedrummer wrote: »

Maybe you just need to get the wheels overhauled. Dunno where you'd get that done in Donegal.

theres my problem;)

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Blorg, what's your opinion/experience of mudguards for touring?

You want them, certainly. Full-length guards like SKS Chromoplastics go on once and never need adjustment. They work great if you are cycling on tarmac (of whatever quality) in the rain. The problem arises if you are cycling in mud- it will tend to jam between the mudguard and the tyre and stop the wheel entirely. I haven't had this problem yet as although I have been on plenty of unsealed roads it has been dry when I have been on them, or at least not monsoon. When it has been wet I have been on tarmac.

I am starting back on the bike Thursday from Litang in Sichuan. Last stop on the bike was Kathmandu in Nepal. I wanted to ride across Tibet but that is not possible at the moment due to Chinese government restrictions. Litang is a Tibetan town basically just over the border of the Tibetan Autonomous Region to the east so I start again from here. (Tibet is substantially larger than the TAR.) Litang has actually just been closed to foreigners, the police went around yesterday and told us all to leave immediately; we all got a personal interview. Our guesthouse proprietor says we can just ignore them; they generally don't physically kick people out, just stop them coming in. Some Americans got uppity and got their consulate to call the police; they were told they could stay on the condition they remained in town and under no circumstances went out of town to the (illegal) Litang Horse Festival. So we went straight out there today and it was fantastic, we were the only foreigners there! They shoot at targets off galloping horses (rifles, handguns, bow and arrow) and slide down the side of the horse to pick stuff off the ground.

First up is a 400km ride to Shangri-La in Yunnan (it is named after the book, not the other way around.) I have met a few cyclists who have ridden the road; I am told it is unsurfaced and bad from half way. It is rainy season and has been píssing down almost every day, so mud mud mud. I have several passes over 4,700m, lost my good raincoat, and a single-shell tent. So I guess I'll learn a lot more about touring in the next few days.

My general conclusion would be you want them for general touring. If you are specifically going to tour in the mud, then maybe leave them at home and use MTB-style things further from the wheel that don't do as good a job but won't get clogged.

Vélo

blorg wrote: »

They shoot at targets off galloping horses (rifles, handguns, bow and arrow) and slide down the side of the horse to pick stuff off the ground.

There was no reason to cycle to the other side of the world to see that, they do that in certain parts of Dublin also.

blorg

@Colonel- do you have a road bike? Nothing comes close to a nice light road machine for unloaded day riding. If you have a road bike, get a proper tourer that will take cantis and wider tyres like the Amazon for the flexibility (you can use the road bike for unloaded day rides and even multi-day ultra-light touring.) An audax bike would just be too similar to your road bike, if you have one.

If you don’t have a road bike and can only have one bike for unloaded riding and light touring around Europe, then I would unquestionably get an audax bike like the Yukon. But two bikes are always a better option than one, with less compromise. You will never feel that something like an Amazon is too heavy when actually touring; you may feel an audax bike is sluggish compared to a proper road bike.

If you don’t intend cycling around the world and tend to pack light a light 700c tourer is nicer than a heavier one. A light tourer is fine for cycling around the world too, just 26” wheels and wider tyres would be better.

As to some of the wide-tyre canti options mentioned:

I have a Kinesis CrossLight Evo 3 which is very light, rides absolutely beautifully, and is very nippy on the road as well as off. This is a full on race frame with no bottle bosses never mind rack mounts, but if the Crosslight 5 T rides in any way similarly it would be a very nice bike. Incomparably nicer to a cross bike like the Tricross which is a tank. My VN Amazon is also sold as a cross frame; I do think a cross bike can potentially make a good tourer, and can be a lighter option than a steel touring frame.

I have met lots of people on the road with Long Haul Truckers. It is almost always a tank of a bike, very very heavy. I did meet one girl who had built hers up with quite bling lightweight components and it wasn’t quite as crazy heavy as the others, but if looking for something that will double as a winter trainer this probably isn’t the bike for you. Very much a long distance touring bike and one that is very good for that application. If you are thinking of extended touring the LHT is a much better choice than the Cross Check, as you can get it in a 26” wheel version.

Something like a Bob Jackson looks like a beautiful bike for not that much more (in the scheme of a full bike) over the likes of a LHT. If I was going for steel, I know which one I’d pick.