Iarnród Éireann Refund for delayed train

NedNew2

I was delayed by over and hour and 15 minutes last week on a train en route to Portlaoise from Heuston. I was understandably annoyed and decided to request whatever refund was due to me. I had thought I heard somewhere that if the service is delayed by more than an hour you get a refund of 50%.

My monthly ticket costs €200. Today I received my refund, a whopping €2.45.

Iarnrod Eireann stated that as I had a monthly ticket they divide that by days of the month and refund a percentage of that.

Hardly fair I thought, if a person has bought a single ticket they would have got 50% back.

But then I wouldn't expect Iarnrod Eireann to have any sensible policy.

So much for their customer charter. Do ye think this is fair/realistic?

LEIN

You didn't purchase a single ticket though.

NedNew2

Damo9090 wrote: »

You didn't purchase a single ticket though.

Yes Damo, as I mentioned I bought a monthly ticket. My issue is whether this is a fair or idiotic method of refunding customers? Why should a person paying €200 a month get €2.50 refund when a person who has paid only €15 gets €7.50.

I'm trying to get some genuine opinions here Damo, so please, let's have some constructive dialog.

Le Meas.

LEIN

I have a yearly ticket that's worth over €1k and i would probably receive less again. As it works out at way less than a normal single ticket i would not expect a full single refund if it where required.

Hilly Bill

I think the chap has a valid point no matter if it was a monthly ticket or not. There should only be a difference if the ticket being used is a consession like student or child or OAP etc.

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I think the chap has a valid point no matter if it was a monthly ticket or not. There should only be a difference if the ticket being used is a consession like student or child or OAP etc.

...so if someone's delayed twice in an entire year they should get the full annual price back? Ridiculous suggestion.

The OP got about as much of a refund as I'd expect. You could be expected to do 40 trips a month on a 200 ticket, fiver a trip, half a fiver = 2.50.

Hilly Bill

Im not suggesting that they get the full annual price back.

If someone with a monthly or annual adult ticket gets delayed on the same train as someone who paid the single journey adult fare then they should get back the same value as what the single journey gets back. If the single fare gets for example €7.50 back from that journey then so should the monthly and annual ticket holders.

NedNew2

Exactly, they should all get the same refund, i.e. €7.50.

I think it is a very poor and unfair system.

LXFlyer

NedNew2 wrote: »

Exactly, they should all get the same refund, i.e. €7.50.

I think it is a very poor and unfair system.

Why exactly?

The person with the prepaid ticket is effectively paying far less for the individual journeys than the person who has bought a single ticket. This is particularly true if it were bought through the taxsaver scheme.

Hence they get a reduced refund.

L1011

NedNew2 wrote: »

Exactly, they should all get the same refund, i.e. €7.50.

I think it is a very poor and unfair system.

How on earth is it unfair that you'd get refunded significantly more than you actually paid for that journey?

You're paying a third of the single fare, hence you get a third of the refund.

Do you think they should be giving people who've paid childrens fares the adult refunds too then?

corktina

youve paid about a fiver for that journey, but you are expecting 7.50 as a refund!

Hilly Bill

€7.50 was just for example and not an exact amount.

LXFlyer

The point remains that someone who has a monthly/annual ticket will have paid significantly less for the journey than someone who has bought a single.

Therefore they get a smaller refund.

Dermo

Imagine 2 people bought tickets for a flight to London and person A paid €50 on a special deal and person B paid €100 for a single like most people on the flight.
The flight is delayed by an hour and the airline say they will refund 50%.
Person A gets €25 and person B gets €50.

Should A complain that he didn't get a better refund because his flight cost less?

Your train ticket cost approximately €5 (as explained above for an average of 40 trips per monthly ticket and you got a refund of €2.50.
The single train ticket costs (for example) €15 and people who bought that get a refund of €7.50.

Why do you deserve to get a better refund? You can only get a refund for what you actually pay.

LEIN

It seems some people want money for free.

Hilly Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

The point remains that someone who has a monthly/annual ticket will have paid significantly less for the journey than someone who has bought a single.

Therefore they get a smaller refund.

Thats fair enough so. I was basing it on the value of the monthly/annual ticket being the same as a multi of the single ticket.

ArmaniJeanss

If you've only used the ticket once that month (say through illness) will they refund €100?

xOxSinéadxOx

Well it kinda doesn't make sense cos how do they know how much you use the ticket? I'd say most people don't actually use theirs 7 days a week anyway. Probably Mon-Fri

LXFlyer

How often the person actually uses is irrelevant - they have the right to use it as much as they like over the 31 days of the Month.

If they choose not to that's really their decision.

LEIN

lxflyer wrote: »

How often the person actually uses is irrelevant - they have the right to use it as much as they like over the 31 days of the Month.

If they choose not to that's really their decision.

Agreed. I can sit on trains from the first train till the last train for a year with my ticket if i wish.

NedNew2

Hi Guys, thats good debate there - clearly there are two distinct opinions on this.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with those who claim I should only receive a fraction of he refund that other receive.

In my opinion every passenger should receive the same amount, based on their destination, e.g. all passengers to Portlaoise would receive 7.50€.

Whether they have paid €15 or €200 (like me should not matter).

Also I think it's irrelevent to point out that the journey cost me €5... the ticket cost me €200, so whether I make one journey or 40 journeys the fact is that I paid €200.

Damo, yes, some people want money for free, some people would like fair and just treatment.

-Chris-

If every single train you travelled on for a month was similarly delayed, would you expect to have a €100 refund on your €200 ticket, or what value would you put on it?

L1011

NedNew2 wrote: »

Damo, yes, some people want money for free, some people would like fair and just treatment.

You got fair and just treatment. You want money for free

Its quite clear in the Irish Rail T&Cs as to how refunds are calculated. You got every cent you're entitled to and now you want more.

ongarboy

NedNew2 wrote: »

In my opinion every passenger should receive the same amount, based on their destination, e.g. all passengers to Portlaoise would receive 7.50€.

Whether they have paid €15 or €200 (like me should not matter).

Also I think it's irrelevent to point out that the journey cost me €5... the ticket cost me €200, so whether I make one journey or 40 journeys the fact is that I paid €200.

But why should everyone receive the same refund amount based on same destination when people can pay varying amounts to travel to that same destination? For example I can book online offpeak and get a 10 euro one way to Cork. Someone else may pay for a ticket costing 36 euro to Cork (same destination). Your flawed argument of everyone getting the same refund based on same destination implies both I and the other passenger get 5 euro (unfair to the other person) or we both get 18 euro (I end up getting a 13 euro profit...i.e....money for nothing which is not very fair either!)

Dermo

-Chris- wrote: »

If every single train you travelled on for a month was similarly delayed, would you expect to have a €100 refund on your €200 ticket, or what value would you put on it?

From his arguments above, he would be expecting €300 back (based on example average refund of €7.50) from a €200 ticket

LXFlyer

NedNew2 wrote: »

Hi Guys, thats good debate there - clearly there are two distinct opinions on this.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with those who claim I should only receive a fraction of he refund that other receive.

In my opinion every passenger should receive the same amount, based on their destination, e.g. all passengers to Portlaoise would receive 7.50€.

Whether they have paid €15 or €200 (like me should not matter).

Also I think it's irrelevent to point out that the journey cost me €5... the ticket cost me €200, so whether I make one journey or 40 journeys the fact is that I paid €200.

Damo, yes, some people want money for free, some people would like fair and just treatment.

Of course it matters what you paid for the ticket - what you are looking for is free cash.

You purchased a right to travel unlimited between Portlaoise and Dublin for 1 month. One trip during that period was delayed - you received a refund proportionate to the cost of that trip to you.

Anything more frankly is naked greed on your part.

Genghis

Dermo wrote: »

Imagine 2 people bought tickets for a flight to London and person A paid €50 on a special deal and person B paid €100 for a single like most people on the flight.
The flight is delayed by an hour and the airline say they will refund 50%.
Person A gets €25 and person B gets €50.

Should A complain that he didn't get a better refund because his flight cost less?

Not a great example Under EU legislation, where the delay is caused by the airline, there is a fixed compensation payable to all delayed passengers. What an individual paid for the flight, or what the person sitting beside her paid for the flight is irrelevant.

http://www.aviationreg.ie/Delay/Default.210.html

IE are compensating for the cost of the ticket - which is not equal. As far as how they do this, I don't think they are incorrect.

However, if a train is delayed, isn't everyone on board inconvenienced equally? On this basis I think there should be a set table as per the airlines.

Sounds to me that it suits IE to pay a financial compensation, whereas with more consideration for the customer, they would compensate on inconvenience. In that scenario all claimants get the same treatment.

Dermo

Genghis wrote: »

Not a great example Under EU legislation, where the delay is caused by the airline, there is a fixed compensation payable to all delayed passengers. What an individual paid for the flight, or what the person sitting beside her paid for the flight is irrelevant.

http://www.aviationreg.ie/Delay/Default.210.html

IE are compensating for the cost of the ticket - which is not equal. As far as how they do this, I don't think they are incorrect.

I had no idea they worked that way, but my example still holds (sort of ).
Technically my example was for a plane delayed by 1 hour and the airline say (out of the goodness of their black hearts) that they will refund 50% to all passengers. Nothing to do with regulations. Technically, an airline doesn't have to refund anything if it out of their control and even then they only have to pay if the delay is longer than 2 hours.

Genghis wrote: »

However, if a train is delayed, isn't everyone on board inconvenienced equally? On this basis I think there should be a set table as per the airlines.

Everyone isn't inconvenienced equally. Maybe in relation to time they are, but not in relation to money. Monetarily they are all inconvenienced in different ways.


edit: oh, and if IE were going to have a flat rate scale of compensation you can bet it will work out for them as they would prefer to pay €2.50 to every passenger rather than €2.50 to some and €7.50 to others.

corktina

If you could buy an item in Tesco for €5 and they had a BOGOF special offer ,if you had to return one of them, do you think they'd give you all your money back? or half of it?

(i suspect they'd replace the item but lets ignore that)

You are getting good treatment anyway as, as far as I can see, they base their figures on a likely 20 return journeys per month, where they COULD have based it on 31.

Genghis

Dermo, I am getting no end of entertainment from you! LOL

Dermo wrote: »

I had no idea they worked that way, but my example still holds (sort of ).
Technically my example was for a plane delayed by 1 hour and the airline say (out of the goodness of their black hearts) that they will refund 50% to all passengers. Nothing to do with regulations. Technically, an airline doesn't have to refund anything if it out of their control and even then they only have to pay if the delay is longer than 2 hours.

So, what you are saying is ignore actual reality and replace with a hypothetical scenario that you have made up, and then use that to support your argument No airline offers any compensation to all passengers unless they have to under regulations. If the airline makes a gesture, it is generally for free food / accomodaation vouchers etc. These would be given out per passenger, and not be related to the fare paid.

Dermo wrote: »

Everyone isn't inconvenienced equally. Maybe in relation to time they are, but not in relation to money. Monetarily they are all inconvenienced in different ways.

We are making the same point. Not sure you read all my post, the jist of it was if you think people should be compensated on financial loss, then you are happy with the current arrangements. If, like me, you believe people should be compensated for inconvenience, then the current system is wrong.

Dermo wrote: »

edit: oh, and if IE were going to have a flat rate scale of compensation you can bet it will work out for them as they would prefer to pay €2.50 to every passenger rather than €2.50 to some and €7.50 to others.

Where did you get €2.50 from? You have just picked a low amount to suit your argument.

Dermo

Genghis wrote: »

Dermo, I am getting no end of entertainment from you! LOL



So, what you are saying is ignore actual reality and replace with a hypothetical scenario that you have made up, and then use that to support your argument No airline offers any compensation to all passengers unless they have to under regulations. If the airline makes a gesture, it is generally for free food / accomodaation vouchers etc. These would be given out per passenger, and not be related to the fare paid.



We are making the same point. Not sure you read all my post, the jist of it was if you think people should be compensated on financial loss, then you are happy with the current arrangements. If, like me, you believe people should be compensated for inconvenience, then the current system is wrong.

I was never talking about reality in the airline situation, it was clearly hypothetical. It isn't my fault if you couldn't understand that.

Genghis wrote: »

Where did you get €2.50 from? You have just picked a low amount to suit your argument.

I said €2.50 by accident. What I actually meant was €2.45 which the OP said he received in the first post. Maybe you should be reading other posts too.


The OP's argument is that he should receive the same amount of financial compensation as somebody who paid more for their ticket. Simple as that.
You are saying he should be compensated for the inconvenience, well could you please tell me how much that should be?

Victor

Can people be a little less sharp with each other?

---

Damo9090 wrote: »

It seems some people want money for free.

What people really want is for the trains to run on time.

Dermo wrote: »

From his arguments above, he would be expecting €300 back (based on example average refund of €7.50) from a €200 ticket

Well, if one was delayed 75 minutes on a 60 minute journey, for 20 days in the month, thats 25 hours that the user has been delayed.

In the UK, as an example, monthly / annual users are allowed a discount (10%) on their next ticket if targets aren't met.

corktina wrote: »

If you could buy an item in Tesco for €5 and they had a BOGOF special offer ,if you had to return one of them, do you think they'd give you all your money back? or half of it?

(i suspect they'd replace the item but lets ignore that)

I would expect the full amount of money back. That they gave you two for the price of one was an incentive for you to spend in the shop. The BOGOF offer may have been more expensive than the ordinary price in another supermarket.

corktina

Victor wrote: »

.

I would expect the full amount of money back. That they gave you two for the price of one was an incentive for you to spend in the shop. The BOGOF offer may have been more expensive than the ordinary price in another supermarket.

what you expect and what you are entitled to (and would get) are two different things. Yes, you can probably pressurise Tesco into doing more than you are entitled to, but that doesnt make it right to get back more.

LEIN

Victor wrote: »

What people really want is for the trains to run on time.

Not here its not! I would love to agree with you but it seems this thread is about the amount of money to be made rather than the punctuality of a service.

L1011

Victor wrote: »

In the UK, as an example, monthly / annual users are allowed a discount (10%) on their next ticket if targets aren't met.

Quite likely the OP wouldn't have got a cent off in this scenario, seeing as IR seem to meet most targets due to overly large recovery times and so on...

foggy_lad

MYOB wrote: »

Quite likely the OP wouldn't have got a cent off in this scenario, seeing as IR seem to meet most targets due to overly large recovery times and so on...

They slap on an extra 10 or 20 minutes onto timetables to allow for the normal day to day late running of so many trains. And even then wnnt declare a train late unless it is over 10 minutes behind at the very last stop. The department of transport needs to step up and take this companynin hand and issue fines for every minute each train is late or early at all stops not just the first and last! This money could then go towards passenger refunds.

As for where the fines will be got, staff bonuses and overtime first then reducing salaries for the management and then cut back on staff, it sometimes feels like there are more station gardeners than railway staff in Irish rail.

Genghis

A train delayed by an hour or more is not without any small consequence for most people.

Being delayed for over an hour, for example, could well result in a direct loss of income (if you are paid or charge by the hour), it could mean that on arrival you need to jump in a taxi instead of onto a bus to recover time. Maybe you are holding a meeting, and you have to let others down. On your commute home, you could easily spoil a dinner or miss seeing your kids before they go to bed. Maybe you have no kids, but because the train is late you miss your 5-a-side or a gym session.

There are loads of scenarios where people are inconvenienced, and very few where a one hour delay has absolutely no consequence.

I guess I am surprised at how many people think that a compensation of less than €2.50 is adequate, and characterising the OP as being out to make a buck.

For my money a standard payment relating to the level of inconvenience should be claimable by all passengers with a valid ticket. Something like €10 per hour delay after the first hour delay would be appropriate (i.e. no payment for delays up to an hour, €10 per hour thereafter).

Important note:
1. IE Charter, which they wrote themselves, targets better than 90% punctuality on commuter routes as measured by 'no later than 10 mins late' (Link to Charter)
2. Although they don't appear to be published anywhere online, each month IE update their information boards in Heuston and Connolly detailing punctuality and reliability stats for their services in the previous calendar month. Based on the measurement in the customer charter, these stats are typically 99-100% - hence a 1-hour delay is a rare enough occurence.
3. I commute a similar distance to the OP, making 10 trips a week. I would estimate the incidence of a one hour plus delay to be maybe once every 3 months, or 1-in-250 journeys.

Victor

Genghis wrote: »

2. Although they don't appear to be published anywhere online, each month IE update their information boards in Heuston and Connolly detailing punctuality and reliability stats for their services in the previous calendar month. Based on the measurement in the customer charter, these stats are typically 99-100% - hence a 1-hour delay is a rare enough occurence.

There are three measurements:

1. Percentage of Scheduled Services Operated - did the train run as scheduled? The target and results tend to be in the 98-100% bracket.

2. Punctuality - was the train on time (within 5-10 minutes)? The target tends to be in the 87-90% bracket. The results tend to be in the 70-95% bracket.

3. Passenger Service Annual Train Kilometres / Timetabled Kilometres Delivered.

n97 mini

The standard refund should be half an ordinary single fare.

These refunds are as much about incentivising IE to buck up.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

The standard refund should be half an ordinary single fare.

These refunds are as much about incentivising IE to buck up.

If Network Rail in the UK mess up or have some problem with the rail lines they get fined £800 for every minute that every train on that stretch of track is delayed, this is a good incentive for them to do repairs quickly and to keep the track bridges and crossings etc in good condition.

Maybe Irish Rail should be subject to similar fines for delays and the money used to refund passengers? would this be an incentive to improve the rail network?

LEIN

foggy_lad wrote: »

If Network Rail in the UK mess up or have some problem with the rail lines they get fined £800 for every minute that every train on that stretch of track is delayed, this is a good incentive for them to do repairs quickly and to keep the track bridges and crossings etc in good condition.

Maybe Irish Rail should be subject to similar fines for delays and the money used to refund passengers? would this be an incentive to improve the rail network?

Good idea but it will never happen while they are a semi state company.

n97 mini

Maybe it's a clever way to fine IE to death and finally be rid of them?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

If Network Rail in the UK mess up or have some problem with the rail lines they get fined £800 for every minute that every train on that stretch of track is delayed, this is a good incentive for them to do repairs quickly and to keep the track bridges and crossings etc in good condition.

Maybe Irish Rail should be subject to similar fines for delays and the money used to refund passengers? would this be an incentive to improve the rail network?

€800 for every minute late? If that happened there would be threads on here complaining about trains not waiting on passengers and passengers stranded on platforms. Fines for delays is a fair point but €800 for every minute is a bit silly and would open the door to those that have a grudge against Irish Rail to go out and delay the trains in some way.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe it's a clever way to fine IE to death and finally be rid of them?

And then what?

-Chris-

Ultimately that €800 would come out of the taxpayers' pockets.

If IE want to create efficiencies, they'll do it with or without fines.
If they don't, then the deficit they run will just get deeper with a fining system.

IMHO, anyway.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

And then what?

We can build a new, proper transport system, not overstaffed with unionised dinosaurs on defined benefit pensions.

-Chris- wrote:

If IE want to create efficiencies, they'll do it with or without fines.

DB's subvention was limited and we're led to believe that there were redundancies as they needed to cut costs. Either the same would apply to IE, or someone is telling lies.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

We can build a new, proper transport system, not overstaffed with unionised dinosaurs on defined benefit pensions.


DB's subvention was limited and we're led to believe that there were redundancies as they needed to cut costs. Either the same would apply to IE, or someone is telling lies.

I don't know if you know anybody who works in Irish Rail but of the few I do know, my brother in law (depotman) was offered redundancy a few months ago, a friend (electrician) has two of his collegues who were offered and took while as late as 1999, my Dad (a Superintendant) was offered and took early, as did two other of his workmates in the training school. The introduction of the 22000 railcars has led to the virtual eliminaton of train guards on the network; this and the sub contracting out of much infrastructural, trackwork, signaling and construction projects has seen thousands of staff let go over the last few years.

In short, Irish Rail are forver shedding staff numbers, many through through reformed work practices and possibly at a faster rate than Dublin Bus.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I don't know if you know anybody who works in Irish Rail

I do. And one of them says he's turned black from all the tea he's drank since he started 3 or 4 years ago.

Joking aside my favourite ex-IE employee is Brendan Ogle.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

I do. And one of them says he's turned black from all the tea he's drank since he started 3 or 4 years ago.

Joking aside my favourite ex-IE employee is Brendan Ogle.

I shall take that as a no, you don't or else you'd know about the amount they release yearly

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I shall take that as a no, you don't or else you'd know about the amount they release yearly

n97 mini wrote:

I do. And one of them says he's turned black from all the tea he's drank since he started 3 or 4 years ago.

The joke was he hasn't really turned black.

One would hope that for everyone that has been released, the numbers employed are falling at exactly the same rate, but one would suspect this not to be the case.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

We can build a new, proper transport system, not overstaffed with unionised dinosaurs on defined benefit pensions.


DB's subvention was limited and we're led to believe that there were redundancies as they needed to cut costs. Either the same would apply to IE, or someone is telling lies.

This is real life we are talking about not some sims game on the internet.
Know much about building a new transport system do you?
From what i can see, all you want is for hundreds of people to lose their jobs just so that you can feel good about yourself.
How do you know its overstaffed and what do you know about the pensions?
Little or nothing i would say.