Adult Caution Undeserved!

josteed

Hi folks,
I’ll be very brief. I was recently attacked but I managed to shake off my aggressor on a few occasions without resorting to violent behaviour or profane language on my own behalf. I did everything by the book, reporting it to the guards and I’ve a witness. To make a long story short the guards are treating us in equal measure with an Adult Caution. And this guy is known to the guards. Do you have to get yourself beaten to a pulp by the aggressor to win your case or what? I never needed the law before and feel very let down by the system.

If you’re to accept an Adult caution you’ve to sign a form accepting you broke the law with is ridiculous when you know you did nothing wrong i.e. I never hit anyone nor did I use threatening language. The alternative is to reject it and run the risk of getting a criminal conviction in court. Which is pretty frightening for a normal law abiding citizen. Has anyone else suffered this injustice?

BaronVon

Same happened my little brother. He got jumped on and they both got the Adult Caution.

I argued with the guard, but he didn't want to know.

It's a very flawed system.

Only thing I could say is contact a solicitor

source

I think there's more to this than the op is letting on, in a situation where 2 people are fighting, then they will normally both be prosecuted. But when one is clearly not engaging with the other and the other is clearly the aggressor then it is the aggressor who gets prosecuted.

OP there wasn't by any chance alcohol and a public order arrest involved in this incident was there? I ask because what you describe sounds like Section 2 assault and there's no power of arrest for Section 2 assault. So normally when 2 people are drunk and a fight breaks out between them both are arrested under public order offences. It doesn't matter who started it, if both are engaged in the fight then both are arrested for public order offences, and if one wants to make a complaint of assault against the other they can once they've sobered up.

I would imagine your caution is for offences under Section 4 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 and Section 6 Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994. Basically intoxication in a public place (S4) and Threatening, abusive and insulting words and behaviour (S6). In other words, drunk and fighting.

Also I really don't understand what your worry is about going to court, If you were in the right and have witness to prove that then take the charge and get a solicitor. Go to court and fight it. If you're right you have nothing to worry about. If you're in the wrong however you just gave up your chance of an official caution. Nobody is forcing you to sign the adult caution form. The option is there for you to refuse it.

BaronVon

source wrote: »

there's no power of arrest for Section 2 assault.

OP never said anything about anyone getting arrested.

He said he made a complaint, matter was investigated, and both parties are being held culpable.

Marcusm

For what purported offence s it being suggested you accept the caution? If you genuinely believe you have not committed such an offence and that the Gardai have no evidence of such an offence then it is possible that no proceedings would follow if you declined to accept the caution. However, if it is the type of offence (such as the public order offences mentioned above) in respect of which Garda witness evidence is accepted as proof, you may be cutting off your nose not to accept it. If you feel the particular Garda is not treating you fairly, you have access to the relevant review and complaints procedure.

source

infacteh wrote: »

source wrote: »

there's no power of arrest for Section 2 assault.

OP never said anything about anyone getting arrested.

He said he made a complaint, matter was investigated, and both parties are being held culpable.

As i said theres more to this than the op is sharing. I then generalised about what will happen in certain scenarios.

At no point did i say he got arrested.

Bosco boy

Don't accept the adult caution, let it go to court and take your chances, you might regret it!

ieoinu

There's three sides to every story as they say. You make a complaint of assault and if it's a minor matter it will be investigated as a sec 2 assault. Basically the other party will be invited to make a cautioned statement in relation to the matter. If they were to allege that you assaulted them then you too could find yourself being investigated for assault. In the absence of an independent 3rd party witness, cctv other evidence the normal procedure is that both parties would be brought to court and give their own account and the Judge would decide on culpability. This decision is not up the guard as discretion would not be used here. The likely hood here is that a counter allegation has been made and the complaints/assaults are of a minor nature and may be best dealt with by cautioning the parties. If this matter was to go to court and the judge decided that both parties were to blame you could find yourself with a conviction or bound to the peace.

Reloc8

You can't be forced to take an adult caution.

If you feel this strongly about it, don't accept it.

Fight your case in court.

But stop complaining that you're suffering an injustice. You've been the subject of a criminal complaint. Times past, you'd just be summonsed to court. Now, you're being given an opportunity to deal with it, if you think you have a problem.

If you don't, don't accept it.

/thread

josteed

Of course there is more to the story, but I'm hardly going divulge all delicate information on a public website. But for the purposes of this thread one can assume that my situation is genuine. There wasn’t any alcohol involved. The individual who did this is being brought to court also for another offence in relation to the same incident. My point is why should you be frightened into accepting an adult caution because your too afraid that the courts might twist things like on TV & you’d end up worse than ever. There is also evidence of follow up verbal treats. But the Guards don’t seem to be bothered as long as the situation is off their desk and give both parties a slap on the back of the hand.

Thanks for all the replies!

Zambia

In the original thread you said you are both getting equal measure. Now you state he is going to court and you are getting a caution. That's not equal.

With respect the Garda has to weigh up what happened he/she clearly has decided you are not without fault here. Your eventual guilt is decided by the courts not the Garda.

You are indeed correct the Garda wants it of their desk. Chances are more crimes are piling on their desk as we speak. However if he is going to court and you have been offered a caution sounds to me like he is on top of things.

The Garda has offered you a caution if you don't accept it well then I can assume its court. Unless their is some evidence you did wrong I dont see why the Garda would bother bringing you to court.

Zambia

In the original thread you said you are both getting equal measure. Now you state he is going to court and you are getting a caution. That's not equal.

With respect the Garda has to weigh up what happened he/she clearly has decided you are not without fault here. Your eventual guilt is decided by the courts not the Garda.

Unless their is some evidence you did wrong I dont see why the Garda would bother bringing you to court.

josteed

I open this thread with the intension of trying not to confuse people, as I just wanted to focus on the assault part as it is taken entirely separate in the eyes of the law. The second part that I mentioned (but won’t go into) in relation to him being called to court is something else he also did, but is separate from assault but occurred in the same incident. So therefore, in relation to assault we are both given the same medicine. It would be obvious that the Guard is meeting mid-way in the statements and thus gives both parties an Adult Caution, job done and that’s his side of it legally covered..I’m thinking..

I’ll give you an example; imagine you’re walking down the road with a wheelbarrow and you meet someone. The person you meet throws your wheelbarrow over a bridge & and then tries to assault you thereafter. The aggressor maybe fined by the courts for the wheelbarrow(but you don’t necessarily get paid for it) & you both get a caution for assault even though you were walking down the road not breaking the law against anyone! You don’t get paid for your wheelbarrow & on top of it you get an adult caution!!! Assuming you did nothing wrong to deserve this..it’s definitely not a situation you’d want.
Based on the limited info that I can give.. thanks for the responses. Of course in time I’ll be able to follow up on this thread to fill in the gaps.

TouchingVirus

If you can't talk about the full facts here, how are we meant to opine correctly? IMO if you were so sure you weren't going to get a conviction you'd have flat out refused the adult caution.

Talk to a solicitor - surely €50-€100 for a consultation from a legal professional who has experience in these sort of cases is worth it for peace of mind?

Reloc8

josteed wrote: »

I’ll give you an example; imagine you’re walking down the road with a wheelbarrow and you meet someone. The person you meet throws your wheelbarrow over a bridge & and then tries to assault you thereafter. The aggressor maybe fined by the courts for the wheelbarrow(but you don’t necessarily get paid for it) & you both get a caution for assault even though you were walking down the road not breaking the law against anyone! You don’t get paid for your wheelbarrow & on top of it you get an adult caution!!! Assuming you did nothing wrong to deserve this..it’s definitely not a situation you’d want.

Should I imagine that I'm mouldy drunk, as I take my empty wheelbarrow for a walk down the road ? Just to make it more eh realistic ?

Or just that I over-reacted to the other fellow throwing my wheelbarrow over the bridge by thumping him in the head ?

Or that there is some history between me and the other fella which is sort of known or known of by the gardai ?

Hypothetically of course.

josteed

Thanks for the advice all...I got it sorted...

Bosco boy

josteed wrote: »

I open this thread with the intension of trying not to confuse people, as I just wanted to focus on the assault part as it is taken entirely separate in the eyes of the law. The second part that I mentioned (but won’t go into) in relation to him being called to court is something else he also did, but is separate from assault but occurred in the same incident. So therefore, in relation to assault we are both given the same medicine. It would be obvious that the Guard is meeting mid-way in the statements and thus gives both parties an Adult Caution, job done and that’s his side of it legally covered..I’m thinking..

I’ll give you an example; imagine you’re walking down the road with a wheelbarrow and you meet someone. The person you meet throws your wheelbarrow over a bridge & and then tries to assault you thereafter. The aggressor maybe fined by the courts for the wheelbarrow(but you don’t necessarily get paid for it) & you both get a caution for assault even though you were walking down the road not breaking the law against anyone! You don’t get paid for your wheelbarrow & on top of it you get an adult caution!!! Assuming you did nothing wrong to deserve this..it’s definitely not a situation you’d want.
Based on the limited info that I can give.. thanks for the responses. Of course in time I’ll be able to follow up on this thread to fill in the gaps.

I'd say a juvenile caution would be appropiate