Under 25s Questioning Faith

TravelJunkie

It seems clear from recent posts that there are a lot of young people questioning their faith recently. Specifically, people from Catholic backgrounds, who might have no idea where to go for help.

Is there any places that we can specifically list, ie. youth groups, christian centres, for under 25's that are inter-denominational, that will welcome christians from Catholic backgrounds as a place where they can learn the bible?

Fanny Cradock

Good idea. I think it is great that they are beginning to ask question regarding their faith. The alternative might have been unrealised apathy - also know as functional atheism. Perhaps we can compile a list of useful links and put it in the resources thread?

JimiTime

The problem with the resource thread, is that its a jack of all topics. A concise and clearly marked sticky I'd say would be better?

homer911

Scripture Union is interdenominational (not aligned to any church)

The oldest non-family age they cater for is 19, with a RAW camp starting on August 21st (and various other camps later in the year)

http://www.scriptureunion.ie/holidays/camptype/2

You might want to narrow down the age group a bit - you probably wont find much other than Christian Unions for those 20+

Monty.

TravelJunkie wrote: »

It seems clear from recent posts that there are a lot of young people questioning their faith recently. Specifically, people from Catholic backgrounds, who might have no idea where to go for help.

Is there any places that we can specifically list, ie. youth groups, christian centres, for under 25's that are inter-denominational, that will welcome christians from Catholic backgrounds as a place where they can learn the bible?

Good observation. In the case of Catholics, in my opinion, it's down to the complete failure of Irish Catholic Bishops ensure young adult Catholics properly understand their catechism, and where it comes from. These days, for young Catholics to advance on from what they learned up to the age of 12, they effectively have to become self taught via the tinternet. This has it owns risks, as there is so much rubbish out there.


Catholic sites that I find useful, informative, intresting and reliable are :


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/


http://www.catholic.com/library/faith_tracts.asp


http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm


http://www.drumcreeparish.com/content/category/6/14/158/


http://www.catholicireland.net/


http://irishcatholics.proboards.com/index.cgi


http://www.newadvent.org/


http://www.fssp.org/en/index.htm


http://www.ewtn.com/

.

PDN

Young people questioning their faith is a very positive thing that should be encouraged. Some will drop away (which is no worse than blind unthinking adherence to dogma) but others will come to a more thoughtful and reasoned faith.

jophsie

Spending time with Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament, going to Mass and receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, and going to Confession is first and foremost the best thing you can do to strengthen your spiritual life.

Finding retreats in your area for young adults is also a good thing. Also joining youth groups is good. Listening to good spiritual tapes, and reading Catholic books is also very good to enrich your spiritual life.

Banbh

I suspect that the young people who are leaving the Catholic Church are also repudiating the whole notion of the supernatural. In this case they won't need any alternative guidance other than their own common sense.

Fanny Cradock

Banbh wrote: »

I suspect that the young people who are leaving the Catholic Church are also repudiating the whole notion of the supernatural. In this case they won't need any alternative guidance other than their own common sense.

That's a whole bag of assumptions there.

Banbh

Well it's based on the statistic of all the Christian religions declining and no-religion increasing.

Fanny Cradock

Banbh wrote: »

Well it's based on the statistic of all the Christian religions declining and no-religion increasing.

That's not quite true. Select denominations within Ireland are growing. Take a look at Pentecostalism by way of example. They recently had a special event in Dublin that attracted 1000's. This was unthinkable 15 years ago. But you are correct. The overall trend in the west is that Christianity is in decline, which goes against the massive growth seen in other pars of the world (Asia, Africa, South America.)

However, the decision to leave a particular religion or a denomination doesn't automatically mean that the supernatural is rejected. Far form it. My own anecdotal experience has revealed that people often retain some vague spiritual notions (love is granted near supernatural powers, tarot readings, horoscopes, the vast catalogue of mind/ body/ spirit titles being written and read etc.) or some fuzzy notion of a type of deistic God knocking about the place who suddenly becomes important during times of tragedy.

I also find it strange that "common sense" is held up as the answer to getting by. Removing the religious aspect from the discussion for a moment, people don't always get by on their common sense. It's not a panacea to all life's problems. Indeed, seemingly "common sense" decisions can be the cause of much trouble.

Monty.

You'll find that common sense is not that common anymore.

Banbh

It seems to be increasingly popular with the under-25s, according to the original post.

Jessibelle

I'm not under 25, more just over 30, but would love to know if there was somewhere I could go/a thread that I could use to discuss things faith related.

To expand a bit on my own reasons, as I posted here before, I was raised Catholic, and while always respectful of the religion, had a parting of the ways with it at a very young age. I would have described myself as agnostic more than anything but never thought much about it.

Recently I've started secretly praying again, and, whether it's because my life is a bit tumultuous, as is the case with so many others, and I feel this is giving me a source to ask to to help change things, or whether this is a genuinely real return to religion for me, I'm not sure. I've been through rougher times than the ones I'm in at the moment, and didn't resort to prayer or belief, so that too adds somewhat to the confusion.

I know I'm not ready to return to a church, I still have too many issues with the institutions themselves, but I have found myself in several multi-denominational "quiet rooms" recently offering up thanks and prayers to God or the Lifeforce or the something I think I believe exists, and I do have to admit, saying the words of the prayers I learnt as a child have given me a peace and calmness I haven't had for awhile. Again, I'm not entirely sure if that indicates a reconnection, or more a reassurance from something I was familiar with.

I'd love to be able to discuss this in depth with someone more in the know than I am that could steer me towards things to read on both sides of the argument, while not citing chapter and verse at me.

I'm having a read through a few of the links above, but would be appreciative if anyone else possibly had any other sources of information they could direct me to?

Fanny Cradock

You might find this thread of interest. I still recommend any of the talks I mentioned in my post. Additionally, I would recommend Simply Christian by Tom Wright (audio/video talk here covering some of the same themes - talk, Q&A) or, for a lighter touch, Mere Christianity and Letters from a skeptic.

georgieporgy

Jessibelle wrote: »

I'm not under 25, more just over 30, but would love to know if there was somewhere I could go/a threort to prayer or belief, so that too adds somewhat to the confusion.


I'd love to be able to discuss this in depth with someone more in the know than I am that could steer me towards things to read on both sides of the argument, while not citing chapter and verse at me.

I'm having a read through a few of the links above, but would be appreciative if anyone else possibly had any other sources of information they could direct me to?

this is a good source:
http://www.fultonsheen.com/Fulton-Sheen-MP3.cfm

mulciber

Ok, look. I'm 16 years old and I'm atheist. I was born and raised a Catholic, I'm baptised, have received communion and I've had my confirmation. I see you all blaming the internet and bishops and such but I believe that the main reason why "Under 25s" (but I believe it's not just under 25s) are diverting away from Catholicism is because we're becoming more educated.

Years ago, Ireland was basically run by the Catholic church because people were afraid to not obey the it. Now, people are a lot more educated and know that they aren't going to harmed. For example: If a priest threatened excommunication 40 years ago that person would be scared stiff. Now, if you were threatened with excommunication the person would probably just laugh, I know I would.

So, blame what you want but we just don't buy the stuff that you are spewing at us nowadays. Young people are starting to understand that there is more to life than religion and that it doesn't have to be part of their daily lives.

This is coming from a young ex-Christian that has actually converted a few Catholic people to become atheist because they have the common sense to not follow the Christian church.

Thank you for reading this and please don't take any offence to this because it wasn't intended to offend anyone, I'm just stating the facts.

~Mulciber

P.S. Don't try and convert me. Many have tried and failed spectacularly. I've even converted somebody to atheism who was trying to convert me to Christianity, haha.

georgieporgy

mulciber wrote: »

Years ago, Ireland was basically run by the Catholic church because people were afraid to not obey the it. Now, people are a lot more educated and know that they aren't going to harmed. For example: If a priest threatened excommunication 40 years ago that person would be scared stiff. Now, if you were threatened with excommunication the person would probably just laugh, I know I would.


I'm just stating the facts.

~Mulciber

P.S. Don't try and convert me. Many have tried and failed spectacularly. I've even converted somebody to atheism who was trying to convert me to Christianity, haha.

Do you not know that years ago Ireland was run by England in a very anti catholic manner? Despite ones level of education, one could hardly say the catholic church was in charge.
But if you mean 40 years ago ,when I was 16, I can assure you there were many people just as educated as you spoofing all sorts of stuff.

TravelJunkie

I found out that for those south side of Dublin there is a Bible Study Group for 20 - 30 yr olds run by the Grosvenor Road Baptist Church. Access to this can be organised through the office, numbers on their website.
That church also seems to have social fellowship christian activities for students, which is nice.

There is also an excellent Youth at Trinity Church (Lucan, City Centre, Clare Hall) called axcess. they also have a website trinity.ie


Sometimes it's nice to be able to go to places that are welcoming and where there are other young people. At least it's worth a try.

mulciber

georgieporgy wrote: »

Do you not know that years ago Ireland was run by England in a very anti catholic manner? Despite ones level of education, one could hardly say the catholic church was in charge.
But if you mean 40 years ago ,when I was 16, I can assure you there were many people just as educated as you spoofing all sorts of stuff.

You know full well what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the period when Ireland became a republic and when Catholic was declared our national religion. Yes, the Church had a MASSIVE influence on the lives of Irish people back then. Even when the Irish laws were written up in was included that Ireland would favour no religion BUT yet the Catholic church and God is mentioned numerous times within many laws. So don't try and say that people weren't afraid of the Catholic church because they were. The Catholic church had so much power that they actually stopped people in Ireland from using contraception by manipulating the law.

Excuse me but what do you mean "spoofing all sorts of stuff"? Do you actually mean that they were voicing their opinions about the Church? That people were actually starting to realise that it was corrupt and was controlling people's lives? Please choose your words more carefully and actually elaborate on what you are trying to say.

Monty.

mulciber wrote: »

I believe that the main reason why "Under 25s" (but I believe it's not just under 25s) are diverting away from Catholicism is because we're becoming more educated.

Can you provide us with some proof of your claim about how more educated you all are, because foreign employers in Ireland, en masse, are saying different, and that standards have in fact plummeted.

Also, never confuse a qualification with being educated. I've met many very well qualified Irish people, who in fact turned out to be very poorly educated. Recent graduates in particular.

mulciber

Monty. wrote: »

Can you provide us with some proof of your claim about how more educated you all are, because foreign employers in Ireland, en masse, are saying different, and that standards have in fact plummeted.

Also, never confuse a qualification with being educated. I've met many very well qualified Irish people, who in fact turned out to be very poorly educated. Recent graduates in particular.

Point 1: http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0825/education.html

"Leaving Certificate students are getting better results every year."

point 2: Definition of education: 1. The process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, esp. at a school or university: "a new system of public education"

I would see that as what schools/universities do and schools/universities give qualifications.

That's both of your points nullified and you still haven't responded directly to what I have said.

Also, just because you've encountered a few people that you deem to be uneducated doesn't mean that the majority of people that have received qualifications are uneducated. Learn to differentiate personal experiences from actual statistical facts.

~Mulciber

Monty.

mulciber wrote: »

Point 1: http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0825/education.html

"Leaving Certificate students are getting better results every year."

point 2: Definition of education: 1. The process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, esp. at a school or university: "a new system of public education"

I would see that as what schools/universities do and schools/universities give qualifications.

That's both of your points nullified and you still haven't responded directly to what I have said.

Also, just because you've encountered a few people that you deem to be uneducated doesn't mean that the majority of people that have received qualifications are uneducated. Learn to differentiate personal experiences from actual statistical facts.

~Mulciber

I'm afraid that proves nothing, higher grades can also equal lower standards. As for the rest I can tell it's gone over your head.

Perhaps instead you can prove to us how Christian/Catholic beliefs and PhD's are mutually exclusive ?

mulciber

Monty. wrote: »

I'm afraid that proves nothing, higher grades can also equal lower standards. As for the rest I can tell it's gone over your head.

Perhaps instead you can prove to us how Christian/Catholic beliefs and PhD's are mutually exclusive ?

"higher grades can also equal lower standards"? Go buy a leaving cert past papers book for any subject and look at the questions from year to year. Every year the exams are kept to the same standard of difficulty as the year before them as this is only fair. So no, it doesn't mean that standards are lowering, it means that people are becoming more educated. Don't try and poke holes in an argument that aren't valid.

The rest has gone over my head? Please elaborate on that as I believe that you are saying that because you can't think of a good way to refute against my argument.

I'm not saying that all people with PhD's and such don't believe in the Catholic faith. I'm saying that people nowadays have been educated enough to make their own decision about their religious beliefs. Some people may choose to follow the Catholic faith and some people my decide to turn against it as I have done but the reason of the "Under 25s questioning faith" is because they are educated enough to do so. It's healthy to question your faith. If you didn't question your faith and just followed it blindly it would be the same as picking a career choice without researching it because someone has told you that it's the best career ever even though it may not be to your tastes. Anyway, why are you so disapproving of people questioning their faith?

~Mulciber

Monty.

mulciber wrote: »

Anyway, why are you so disapproving of people questioning their faith?

Point out where I make that claim ? The reason I remain a Catholic is precisely because I questioned every aspect of it. Christians have been "questioning their faith" for 2000 years. Many things in the course of their life will cause people to question their faith in whatever they believe. Claiming the reason young people in particular question it today it is because they are "better educated" does not cut the mustard i'm afraid.

alex73

TravelJunkie wrote: »

It seems clear from recent posts that there are a lot of young people questioning their faith recently. Specifically, people from Catholic backgrounds, who might have no idea where to go for help.

Is there any places that we can specifically list, ie. youth groups, christian centres, for under 25's that are inter-denominational, that will welcome christians from Catholic backgrounds as a place where they can learn the bible?

I was with a million plus young People in Madrid this week. and lOts from Ireland. why not speak to some of them On their experience

georgieporgy

mulciber wrote: »

You know full well what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the period when Ireland became a republic and when Catholic was declared our national religion. Yes, the Church had a MASSIVE influence on the lives of Irish people back then. Even when the Irish laws were written up in was included that Ireland would favour no religion BUT yet the Catholic church and God is mentioned numerous times within many laws. So don't try and say that people weren't afraid of the Catholic church because they were. The Catholic church had so much power that they actually stopped people in Ireland from using contraception by manipulating the law.

Excuse me but what do you mean "spoofing all sorts of stuff"? Do you actually mean that they were voicing their opinions about the Church? That people were actually starting to realise that it was corrupt and was controlling people's lives? Please choose your words more carefully and actually elaborate on what you are trying to say.

Let's try looking at it a different way. The following scriptural passage shows how the church was rejected by many even at the very outset. Acceptance or rejection is an affair of the heart.

First Letter to the Thessalonians 2:1-8. For you yourselves know, brothers, that our reception among you was not without effect.
Rather, after we had suffered and been insolently treated, as you know, in Philippi, we drew courage through our God to speak to you the gospel of God with much struggle.
Our exhortation was not from delusion or impure motives, nor did it work through deception.
But as we were judged worthy by God to be entrusted with the gospel, that is how we speak, not as trying to please human beings,but rather God, who judges our hearts.
Nor, indeed, did we ever appear with flattering speech, as you know, or with a pretext for greed--God is witness--
nor did we seek praise from human beings, either from you or from others,
although we were able to impose our weight as apostles of Christ. Rather, we were gentle among you, as a nursing mother cares for her children.
With such affection for you, we were determined to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our very selves as well, so dearly beloved had you become to us.

owenc

Well I'm not catholic but my mother is and I've been to a few church services... Personally I believe children as already stated are more educated and are starting to see through the catholic church And Are thoroughly thinking out their beliefs... I've been to the catholic church And I font think they are very welcoming and I don't think they are doing enough for their children they don't have Sunday school etc aswell as that all they seem to be interested in is Money the lat time I went they passed round three different charities and I quarntee they get a percentage of that money I never ever seem this in Protestant churches! The catholic church is far to old fashioned for teenagers aswell the stuff they do Is a bit nuts to say the least I think they need to get into a dose of reality quick and fast Before they collapse in the uk and Ireland altogether.. Even my nutter grandmother said that! Another thing I can't stand is the whole myths that they have etc such as once a catholic always a catholic oh please.. Also the whole thing about priests not being married and woman not Benny priests is pathetic that is discrimination and it needs to be sorted out soon!

owenc

And the people angry about people questioning peoples faith I think you need to get a life and leave kids alone I'm sick of this and thoroughly tired of religion in this island if somebody dosnt want to be catholic tough that's their choice drop trying to force them to because that will only make it worse and take them further away from the catholic church..

Zombrex

Monty. wrote: »

Point out where I make that claim ? The reason I remain a Catholic is precisely because I questioned every aspect of it. Christians have been "questioning their faith" for 2000 years. Many things in the course of their life will cause people to question their faith in whatever they believe. Claiming the reason young people in particular question it today it is because they are "better educated" does not cut the mustard i'm afraid.

Course it does, we know far more about areas such as history, biology, other religions etc than we knew in the past.

Young people today are exposed to a lot more information than even 20 years ago (pre-internet)

If you want to find out why you don't need God to produce a human being you can pop onto any number scientific websites and read about evolutionary biology.

If you want to see countless examples of cults and other manipulative religious practices, you can watch any number of documentaries about this on TV or again on the Internet.

If you want to be exposed to critical thinking skills and other logical debating skills you can join any number of internet forums were all they do is discuss this.

If you want to read about the lack of historical support for Biblical events you can find any number of example of this on TV or online.

Young people to day are over loaded with information and access to information. You don't even need to suppose they are better "educated" since this is a some what fuzzy term, simply having this information on tap 24/7 will cause a significant shift in the acceptance of religious doctrine and dogma.

The greatest problem the various churches are facing in this day and age is that they no longer control the information. And in a free market place of information religions tend to fair poorly.

TravelJunkie

alex73 wrote: »

I was with a million plus young People in Madrid this week. and lOts from Ireland. why not speak to some of them On their experience

Would be lovely. But they probably wouldn't post on this thread... it's gone way off topic.

mulciber

Wicknight wrote: »

Course it does, we know far more about areas such as history, biology, other religions etc than we knew in the past.

Young people today are exposed to a lot more information than even 20 years ago (pre-internet)

If you want to find out why you don't need God to produce a human being you can pop onto any number scientific websites and read about evolutionary biology.

If you want to see countless examples of cults and other manipulative religious practices, you can watch any number of documentaries about this on TV or again on the Internet.

If you want to be exposed to critical thinking skills and other logical debating skills you can join any number of internet forums were all they do is discuss this.

If you want to read about the lack of historical support for Biblical events you can find any number of example of this on TV or online.

Young people to day are over loaded with information and access to information. You don't even need to suppose they are better "educated" since this is a some what fuzzy term, simply having this information on tap 24/7 will cause a significant shift in the acceptance of religious doctrine and dogma.

The greatest problem the various churches are facing in this day and age is that they no longer control the information. And in a free market place of information religions tend to fair poorly.

I couldn't of said it better myself.

~Mulciber

georgieporgy

Ah I got it now. Stick the kids in front of the TV and they'll get educated in no time at all. Add in a few hours on the net and bob's your uncle.

And to think of all the money I wasted sending my children to fancy private schools. I could have bought a few more condos instead. You guys are probably right, maybe I am stupid.

georgieporgy

mulciber wrote: »

I couldn't of have said it better myself.

~Mulciber

is that what you meant?:rolleyes:

Zombrex

georgieporgy wrote: »

Ah I got it now. Stick the kids in front of the TV and they'll get educated in no time at all. Add in a few hours on the net and bob's your uncle.

And to think of all the money I wasted sending my children to fancy private schools. I could have bought a few more condos instead. You guys are probably right, maybe I am stupid.

Were they fancy private religious schools by any chance?

Like I said the biggest issue the various Christian churches are facing is that they no longer control the information. That is either a good thing or a terrible thing, depending on one's perspective.

georgieporgy

Wicknight wrote: »

Were they fancy private religious schools by any chance?
nope. my wife is an ex catholic athiest so it was strictly fancy private (without TV)

Like I said the biggest issue the various Christian churches are facing is that they no longer control the information.
I don't think its ever been an issue of the Church controlling information. They did after all invent (for want of a better word) universities, and say that ignorance is the enemy of mankind.
That is either a good thing or a terrible thing, depending on one's perspective.

I'm always perplexed why seemingly good ,intellegent people have an inability to grasp basic facts when it comes to religion. Something else is at work here

Banbh

Something else is at work here

Common sense.

Roger Hassenforder

georgieporgy wrote: »

I'm always perplexed why seemingly good ,intellegent people have an inability to grasp basic facts when it comes to religion. Something else is at work here

I'm curious, what is a religious "fact"?
I suspect the "something else" is reason; possibly something you have a deficit of.

Zombrex

georgieporgy wrote: »

I'm always perplexed why seemingly good ,intellegent people have an inability to grasp basic facts when it comes to religion. Something else is at work here

Which facts?

mulciber

georgieporgy wrote: »

I'm always perplexed why seemingly good ,intellegent people have an inability to grasp basic facts when it comes to religion. Something else is at work here

Ok, if we're being grammar Nazis here:
I'm always perplexed why seemingly good, (Comma out of place) intellegent people have an inability to grasp basic facts when it comes to religion. Something else is at work here(You didn't put in a full stop) :rolleyes:

mulciber

georgieporgy wrote: »

I'm always perplexed why seemingly good ,intellegent people have an inability to grasp basic facts when it comes to religion. Something else is at work here

There is a very minuscule amount of facts when it comes to religion. While science and education is pure fact.

"Something else is at work here"? Ohhh, is it the devil maybe? :rolleyes: No, people are just beginning to wise up about the actual resolve of the
church. The church has always been about power and profit, nothing else. I don't see why people don't see this. Something else is at work here... haha. :L

gimmebroadband

mulciber wrote: »

There is a very minuscule amount of facts when it comes to religion. While science and education is pure fact.

"Something else is at work here"? Ohhh, is it the devil maybe? :rolleyes: No, people are just beginning to wise up about the actual resolve of the
church. The church has always been about power and profit, nothing else. I don't see why people don't see this. Something else is at work here... haha. :L

Maybe this 'enlightened' athiest might give you some food for thought! He died and found himself before God and upon returning back to his body changed his whole life around.....why not look at the 10 testemonial video sequences?!

http://www.youtube.com/user/GoldenLightD

mulciber

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Maybe this 'enlightened' athiest might give you some food for thought! He died and found himself before God and upon returning back to his body changed his whole life around.....why not look at the 10 testemonial video sequences?!

http://www.youtube.com/user/GoldenLightD

I watched 4 of them and got bored. He was just going on and on and on about almost dying and how he heard voices and how he saw his mother praying and such. There was toxic poisons in his bloodstream when he had the vision (or hallucination) of seeing his mother praying for him. He even said himself that he could feel the toxins going into his head when he saw the vision. I doubt the credibility of his story.

I then stumbled upon this little gem on the channel that just denies all credibility to the channel for me.

"Yu-Gi-Oh! - Children programmed into sorcery, egyptian gods, demonic summoning and freemasonry."
http://youtu.be/R8KK4Y4zEiU

A channel that posts this type of stuff has obviously got not credibility at all. Cartoons "programming" things into children, utter nonsense. If you're going to try and convert me and make me see "the errors of my ways" or whatever, please send me a credible link, if there is a credible thing to be found about Christianity.

~Mulciber

Banbh

I'd stop being an old athiest if anyone could give me a shred of proof that a god exists - any god.

PDN

Banbh wrote: »

I'd stop being an old athiest if anyone could give me a shred of proof that a god exists - any god.

Moderating Instruction:
There is an Atheist/Christian Debate thread. If you want to discuss that then take it there please.

Zombrex

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Maybe this 'enlightened' athiest might give you some food for thought! He died and found himself before God and upon returning back to his body changed his whole life around.....why not look at the 10 testemonial video sequences?!

http://www.youtube.com/user/GoldenLightD

How are you defining 'enlightened' here, as this guy seems to know little about near death experiences and the natural causes of them.

You might as well say that the hippie who took an over dose of LSD "found himself before God". It is easy to say someone found got if you just ignore the fact that they were wildly hallucinating

Banbh

I was engaged in a conversation here but if you can't handle it - no thanks.

PDN

Banbh wrote: »

I was engaged in a conversation here but if you can't handle it - no thanks.

It's not a question of what I can handle. It's a question of keeping threads on topic and in line with the Forum Charter.

If you can't handle that then you are free to leave.

If you want to discuss moderating instructions or actions then please do so via PM rather than inthread.

TravelJunkie

PDN, this thread hasn't been on topic since the end of the first page.

Some atheists think they understand Christians and apparently know everything about us. they also know the bible apparently. Well, they too were welcome to post about Christian places for under 25's they went to, even if it wasn't for them and they didn't go back.

Well, for all the insight provided, it's hardly useful to the OP.

PDN

TravelJunkie wrote: »

PDN, this thread hasn't been on topic since the end of the first page.

I agree. That has largely occurred because both mods have been away with limited internet access.

I am pulling it back on topic and encouraging posters to post in relevant threads. And, as usual, that will provoke the odd hissy fit here or there.

gimmebroadband

Wicknight wrote: »

How are you defining 'enlightened' here, as this guy seems to know little about near death experiences and the natural causes of them.

You might as well say that the hippie who took an over dose of LSD "found himself before God". It is easy to say someone found got if you just ignore the fact that they were wildly hallucinating

I hope that when your time comes, that your "hallucinations' are favourable!