Is it right for obesity to become socially acceptable?

hardy_buck

Hi guys, I noticed a thread there in after hours in which people were debating whether Obesity should become socially accpetable (to sugar coat the AH title for the thread ) and that set me thinking, is it ok? Personally I really don't like how people use political correctness to justify a lack of self discipline. I feel it's really upholding lies for the sake of expediency but hey maybe thats just me. What are your views on this??

RandolphEsq

Well it's socially acceptable like smoking is. I frown on both fat people and smokers for being weak but I accept that there are weak people in society.

gargleblaster

Obesity is an interesting issue, because it's something that obese people can't hide. They don't just get obese a few nights a week, and suck up a disproportionate amount of social services based on some binge activity. They're not like people with extreme hobbies, who only engage in those risky activities in certain places and at certain times. That's what makes them particularly susceptible to this type of unfair critique.

No matter who you are, there is something that someone else could demonize you for. For some reason people seize on obesity - and the reason IMO is the shameful level of superficiality that has for whatever reason already been deemed acceptable. It's very rare to find people who instinctively look below the surface anymore. And I don't just mean superficiality about physical appearance. I mean about everything. Most people form an opinion about something and then if they even bother to try to learn about the issue, they seek out only the information that reinforces their chosen view.

Standman

At the core of this issue is how accepting should society at large be to people who may cost the taxpayer in the future, i.e. at what value do we put personal freedom over cost to the taxpayer. I'm not sure what the answer is to that.

silverharp

I dont see that it fits the idea. Being Fat does does not affect other people , its more akin to thinking somebody is ugly yet one wouldnt dream of considering it social/anti social.
The health issue is a canard in this case. There are any number of sub groups in society that may cause a drain on society at one time or another yet most people wouldnt dream of labelling the people concerned as anti social, the focus would be more on the system that invites moral hazard.

Standman

Whether someone is ugly or not is entirely subjective, is of no fault of the person, and has no relation to this issue. Obesity can and does cause health problems for people and is something that they have complete control over.

silverharp

Standman wrote: »

Whether someone is ugly or not is entirely subjective, is of no fault of the person, and has no relation to this issue. Obesity can and does cause health problems for people and is something that they have complete control over.

so people who dont do sports nor exercise are not socially acceptable?

Corsendonk

Standman wrote: »

At the core of this issue is how accepting should society at large be to people who may cost the taxpayer in the future, i.e. at what value do we put personal freedom over cost to the taxpayer. I'm not sure what the answer is to that.

Well just look at the cabinet. Obesity seems socially acceptable in men in there 50s-60s if the cabinet is a reflection of Ireland.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny'
Tánaiste and Foreign Affairs and Trade: Eamon Gilmore Overweight
Finance: Michael Noonan Overweight
Health: James Reilly Overweight
Agriculture, Marine and Food: Simon Coveney
Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs: Jimmy Deenihan
Children: Frances Fitzgerald
Communications, Energy and Natural Resources : Pat Rabbitte Overweight
Education and Skills : Ruairí Quinn Overweight
Enterprise, Jobs and Innovation: Richard Bruton
Environment, Community and Local Government: Phil Hogan Overweight
Justice, Equality and Defence: Alan Shatter
Public Expenditure and Reform: Brendan Howlin Overweight
Social Protection: Joan Burton
Transport, Tourism and Sport: Leo Varadkar Overweight
Chief Whip: Paul Kehoe
Attorney General: Máire Whelan
‘Super junior’ at Department of the Environment: Willie Penrose Overweight

Its not just about over eating or going to the gym but also including exercice in daily life, take the stairs instead of the lift, walk tothe train station etc. The obesity levels in the US and France are worse in the countryside than the cities because people drive everywhere in the countryside.

Standman

silverharp wrote: »

so people who dont do sports nor exercise are not socially acceptable?

We are talking about obesity here, not unfitness. Personally I think people should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit, so long as it is not at the expense of other people. If obesity were to rise significantly it would end up creating a much bigger cost to society, which may be a reason to view it as unacceptable.

silverharp

Standman wrote: »

We are talking about obesity here, not unfitness. Personally I think people should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit, so long as it is not at the expense of other people. If obesity were to rise significantly it would end up creating a much bigger cost to society, which may be a reason to view it as unacceptable.

Indeed I would wish to avoid paying for other peoples mistakes, in this case its the fact that we dont have an insurance system that prices in obesity. but smokers , alcoholics , single mothers , reckless borrowers, the list is endless all cost society in one form or another however I dont see the point of demonising the behaviour, it wouldnt change anything.

CerebralCortex

Standman wrote: »

We are talking about obesity here, not unfitness. Personally I think people should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit, so long as it is not at the expense of other people. If obesity were to rise significantly it would end up creating a much bigger cost to society, which may be a reason to view it as unacceptable.

Being unfit and obese cause a strain on health services especially at older ages, I think it ignorant that people expect taxes to be spent on healthcare when many of their problems are self inflicted.

Standman

silverharp wrote: »

Indeed I would wish to avoid paying for other peoples mistakes, in this case its the fact that we dont have an insurance system that prices in obesity. but smokers , alcoholics , single mothers , reckless borrowers, the list is endless all cost society in one form or another however I dont see the point of demonising the behaviour, it wouldnt change anything.

Yes and I would wager that most of those things on your list would be deemed as socially unacceptable to varying degrees, with the exception of single mothers (although not all single parents are mothers). Reckless behaviour in general is not something that should be viewed as a virtue. Having said that I agree that demonising people and their behaviours is not a productive way to address a problem.

annascott

When you ask if obesity should be socially acceptable, are you suggesting that obese people should be segragated and not allowed in public places?

digme

hardy_buck wrote: »

Hi guys, I noticed a thread there in after hours in which people were debating whether Obesity should become socially accpetable (to sugar coat the AH title for the thread ) and that set me thinking, is it ok? Personally I really don't like how people use political correctness to justify a lack of self discipline. I feel it's really upholding lies for the sake of expediency but hey maybe thats just me. What are your views on this??

You create your own reality. You said the word personally,what else is there?

Standman

annascott wrote: »

When you ask if obesity should be socially acceptable, are you suggesting that obese people should be segragated and not allowed in public places?

I very much doubt it. Socially unacceptable means more that the behavior is generally frowned upon by society.

silverharp

As cost to the taxpayer has been brought up, what is the total cost to the state of an obese person versus a non obese person? from a quick google, it appears that very obese people have a shortened life of about 13 years, that means less state pensions and less nursing home care as they are unlikey to make it to old age. If it turns out they cost the state less, should they now get a round of applause for being less of a liability to the state?

Ray Palmer

I guess it comes down to what you thing socially acceptable means.

Do we purposely cater for them so they are more comfortable. Like large seats, doorways, toilets etc ...?

Change the layout of their work areas and treat them as disabled etc...?

Catering for people and not making fun of them comes down to socially acceptable. I personally don't think it should be socially acceptable and actively discouraged.

As for a negative impact cost I doubt this is a reality as the increased general medical care and new equipment needed to cater for them has a cost . Even with pension savings the amount of resources they use probably outstrips that. Obese people constantly have more sick days from what I read before

Smokers are certainly more than paying for the cost of their care with the taxes taken from them on each pack of fags.

silverharp

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Catering for people and not making fun of them comes down to socially acceptable. I personally don't think it should be socially acceptable and actively discouraged.

youd suggest that fat people are fair game for verbal abuse, that's just being rude no?


Rather then running for the pitchforks it would be more useful for the government and medical establisment and food processing industry to accept that their nutrition adivce has been wrong for decades. The standard advice is to eat a low fat, high carbohydrate diet. This diet can cause obesity in a lot of people because most people are hard wired to store carbs as fat and to make a person constantly hungry.
I'd argue that many people that ar fat are not choosing to be so, in the same way that a smoker doesnt choose to smoke the next cig. Its an addiction where the advice is crap.

Ray Palmer

silverharp wrote: »

youd suggest that fat people are fair game for verbal abuse, that's just being rude no?

Never mentioned fat people once the subject is obese people. It is more than rude to make jokes about peoples' health issues


There is enough information about for people to make their own minds up. Obesity is more similar to being an alcoholic which is not socially acceptable. Obesity should remain the same in my eyes. I don't think the government should legislate for ever personal choice

I also think the BMI is overly used and a flawed system.

While working in the UK I saw a row of counters for staff to address the public. One both was made up of two booths(you could see where the booths were joined). This was to cater for an obese person. I think that is a bad idea.

Saw a program where a guy was defending obese people suggesting a larger toilet become the new standard to cater for larger people. Again I think this is a bad idea. There are very few medical problems that actually cause people to be like this. Too many people are trying to defend an idea that this should be acceptable and take advantage of rules and regulations for people who are truly disabled. Obesity is a disability but the solution is not to cater for it so to make it be unacceptable social should be a tool to discourage it not make it acceptable to allow it get worse.

When I went to school there was one fat kid in the class I now see that the kids going to school and the majority seem to be overweight. A bad trend coming up.

Ddad

I'm overweight,Having said that I exercise regularly and eat well; too well sometimes hence I'm overweight. I get a slagging off some of my fitter and lighter friends about being a lardarse and I accept that and laugh along because being overweight IS a problem. I battle to maintain and lose weight but I do it because the alternative isn't acceptable to me. I was 10kgs heavier and utterly unfiit three years ago. I never accepted it, I always thought it was wrong. Any time I looked at my children and wife I realised the pain that I could bring on them through premature death or serious illness through a lack of self control.

I'm carrying approx 10kgs too much weight for my height and build but I can exercise without difficulty. I can play football with my children and shop for clothing without difficulty; and I'm getting fitter and continuing to slowly lose weight.

My siblings are a different story. I have a younger sister and and older brother; that are both very overweight; at least 30kgs each over an ideal bodyweight. It is a very sensitive subject with them both but they do precious little to deal with it. They don't moderate their diet and exercise regimens to any great extent when putting on a push to lose weight and then bemoan their lack of progress. I hate to see them like this as. At 40 years of age the health implications are starting to catch up with my brother. As a single man I can only foresee a future of decreased mobility and mounting health problems for him yet he refuses to take his problem in hand citing other health issues he has as impediments to him tackiling his problems. I have cajoled and warned but the simple truth is that his time is rapidly running out to modify his behaviours and turn his life around. And it is his life not mine.

In a way my brother is a parable for society as a whole where the problem is ignored and twisted this way and that with fad diets and product promotions fro light and diet products. His fridge is filled with diet and light versions of this and that.

I think society is weak when it allows people to make poor choices and then frowns upon those that condemn those choices. I hate the term big beautiful woman not because big women can't be beautiful; I hate it because it is more often than not a prop to a person who's esteem has been damaged by their own self image. They think they're ugly because they're fat, so tell them they're beautiful because they're fat! I know, I know that isn't always the application but it frequently is.

I think it is right to condemn obesity, but right to help the obese. I'm not particularly worried about the economic cost of obesity; having seen the human cost first hand that is what really concerns me.

Ray Palmer

Ddad wrote: »

I think society is weak when it allows people to make poor choices and then frowns upon those that condemn those choices.

I have a major issue with the concept anybody can blame society for allowing a choice. Personal responsibility remains personal. It's just excuses to blame society

Anybody who thinks diet and "light" food will solve the problem of 30kg is at fault. They can educate themselves and should not require somebody to gift wrap and present them the information.

Instead of light mayonnaise try no mayonnaise

Emme

silverharp wrote: »

Being Fat does does not affect other people...

It actually does. Obese people take up more space in trains, planes and in public spaces. They also tend to move more slowly and hold other people up. I find nothing more irritating than being stuck behind one or more slow-moving obese people on a crowded footpath. A few weeks ago I saw a very overweight couple on a Dublin street waddling along at a snails pace with no consideration for anyone. People had to step off the footpath and brave oncoming rush hour traffic to get past this pair. A skinny Eastern European girl actually muttered "some people take up too much space" as she passed them - you should have seen the fat pair's faces!

I don't think there's as much tolerance towards obesity in Eastern European countries. Their health service is geared towards keeping people fit rather than treating illnesses that result from being unfit.

Obese people cost the health service more (like alcoholics and smokers) and this results in raised taxes for everyone.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Instead of light mayonnaise try no mayonnaise

Or a little real mayonnaise instead of a huge dollop. Discipline and moderation is the key.

silverharp

Emme wrote: »

It actually does. Obese people take up more space in trains, planes and in public spaces. They also tend to move more slowly and hold other people up. I find nothing more irritating than being stuck behind one or more slow-moving obese people on a crowded footpath. A few weeks ago I saw a very overweight couple on a Dublin street waddling along at a snails pace with no consideration for anyone. People had to step off the footpath and brave oncoming rush hour traffic to get past this pair. A skinny Eastern European girl actually muttered "some people take up too much space" as she passed them - you should have seen the fat pair's faces!

and those old and disabled people shouldnt be allowed out, always holding up queues they are.................

Ive no problem with obese people being charged for 2 seats on planes etc. it would be the airlines fault if I wasnt comfortable in my seat, no?

Emme

silverharp wrote: »

and those old and disabled people shouldnt be allowed out, always holding up queues they are.................?

Disabled people didn't choose their disability and should be treated with due respect. Also old people who are incapacitated due to age related issues.

Obesity is mostly self-inflicted and is in my opinion different from the above. If people are lazy and can't control their eating I believe they don't have the right to impose the result of this on everybody else. As I said before, there is nothing more annoying than fat people taking up too much space in crowded shops, waddling two abreast on a narrow footpath and impeding the progress of other people. Not everybody wants to move as slowly as fat lazy people.

What really annoys me is the fat people (usually women) who go around with a "poor me" complex and make out that the world is persecuting them because they are fat. That isn't the case but if it were and motivated them to lose weight it would be a good thing. Unfortunately these people would rather stuff their faces and feel sorry for themselves rather than get off their backsides and do something about their weight. I speak as a former fat child who was bullied something rotten in school for my weight. I didn't sit around snivelling about people giving me a hard time, I lost the weight and it wasn't easy. But it was worth it.

silverharp wrote: »

Ive no problem with obese people being charged for 2 seats on planes etc. it would be the airlines fault if I wasnt comfortable in my seat, no?

For health and safety reasons morbidly obese people should be charged for two seats on planes. And they should be made board last. Certain airlines already discriminate against the disabled whose condition isn't their fault. As I said above obesity is mostly self-inflicted. Obese people on planes compromise the ability of those around them to get out in case of an emergency and also make the journey very unpleasant for those sitting next to them.

The Scientician

Emme wrote: »

Obesity is mostly self-inflicted and is in my opinion different from the above. If people are lazy and can't control their eating I believe they don't have the right to impose the result of this on everybody else.

So, what's the solution? Segregation? Legally mandated dieting? How about people who do the myriad of other (as another poster pointed out) less visible things to harm themselves that end up costing society money, how will you eliminate them from the equation?

catch me if you can

As I said above obesity is mostly self-inflicted

So is alcholism, drug addiction , gambling etc. should we segregate all of the people in society who do not conform to the norm.
There was a man who agreed with you Emme, his name was Adolph. I think you two would have made a cute couple.

As for obesity, obese people, overweight people, skinny people, anorexics , none of them bother me. live and let live. I know plenty of overweight people who are working away, are not lazy and pay their vhi.
Im normal weight myself but after I had my child i was carrying an extra 2 stone that i shifted myself.
I would be appalled to see an obese person being ridiculed or singled out. And i wouldnt be a sheep either and watch it happen.
Just because your thin does not mean your actually attractive, or even an interesting person. There are plenty of dog ugly thin women out there, and men. and they have toxic opinions and personalitites as is evident by certain peoples views on here.

Emme

The Scientician wrote: »

So, what's the solution? Segregation? Legally mandated dieting? How about people who do the myriad of other (as another poster pointed out) less visible things to harm themselves that end up costing society money, how will you eliminate them from the equation?

A more simple solution would be to increase the cost of health insurance for people who put their health at risk through poor diet, drug abuse etc. That's obese people and addicts to start with.

catch me if you can wrote: »

So is alcholism, drug addiction , gambling etc. should we segregate all of the people in society who do not conform to the norm.
There was a man who agreed with you Emme, his name was Adolph. I think you two would have made a cute couple.

What has genocide on the grounds of ethnicity got in common with putting policies in place to encourage people to eat sensibly, exercise and get to a healthy weight? A healthy society is cheaper to run and the money that isn't spent on dealing with obesity related health problems could be spent on public sports/health facilities which would enable us to prevent the problem. Unfortunately it's a bit late for that here.

catch me if you can wrote: »

As for obesity, obese people, overweight people, skinny people, anorexics , none of them bother me. live and let live. I know plenty of overweight people who are working away, are not lazy and pay their vhi. Im normal weight myself but after I had my child i was carrying an extra 2 stone that i shifted myself.

Well done because some people wouldn't bother, in fact they'd use it as an excuse to allow themselves to eat unhealthily.

Considering the fact that something like 50% of Irish people are overweight, a good few of them are bound to be working and paying VHI.

catch me if you can wrote: »

I would be appalled to see an obese person being ridiculed or singled out. And i wouldnt be a sheep either and watch it happen.

That doesn't happen in this country because too many people are obese - something like 50% of the population are overweight. Many of them don't want to face up to it - remember the reaction to the recent Safefood campaign with the measuring tapes?

catch me if you can wrote: »

Just because your thin does not mean your actually attractive, or even an interesting person. There are plenty of dog ugly thin women out there, and men. and they have toxic opinions and personalitites as is evident by certain peoples views on here.

I'm not equating being a healthy weight with being attractive (but it does sometimes help). I'm equating a healthy weight with being healthy, being too thin isn't always healthy either.

By the reactions to my posts here it is clear that obesity is already socially acceptable in Ireland and it isn't socially acceptable to question this or encourage obese people to try to lose weight for the sake of their health.

Adaptions will have to be made to the environment to facilitate these overweight people - stronger public seating, bigger toilets, larger seats in buses and bigger aisles in shops. Some footpaths may have to be made wider. There will be a growing market for plus size clothing for both adults and children.

We will have to look to certain parts of the USA for guidance on how to adopt to a growing number of obese people in Ireland.

silverharp

Emme wrote: »

Disabled people didn't choose their disability and should be treated with due respect. Also old people who are incapacitated due to age related issues.

Obesity is mostly self-inflicted and is in my opinion different from the above. If people are lazy and can't control their eating I believe they don't have the right to impose the result of this on everybody else. As I said before, there is nothing more annoying than fat people taking up too much space in crowded shops, waddling two abreast on a narrow footpath and impeding the progress of other people. Not everybody wants to move as slowly as fat lazy people.

What really annoys me is the fat people (usually women) who go around with a "poor me" complex and make out that the world is persecuting them because they are fat. That isn't the case but if it were and motivated them to lose weight it would be a good thing. Unfortunately these people would rather stuff their faces and feel sorry for themselves rather than get off their backsides and do something about their weight. I speak as a former fat child who was bullied something rotten in school for my weight. I didn't sit around snivelling about people giving me a hard time, I lost the weight and it wasn't easy. But it was worth it.



For health and safety reasons morbidly obese people should be charged for two seats on planes. And they should be made board last. Certain airlines already discriminate against the disabled whose condition isn't their fault. As I said above obesity is mostly self-inflicted. Obese people on planes compromise the ability of those around them to get out in case of an emergency and also make the journey very unpleasant for those sitting next to them.

you need to focus your arguments, because you find a certain group visually annoying and may cause you some minor inconvenience at times , its hard to take you seriously on your economic or monetary arguments. it sounds like the latter is inspired by the former.
if you have a consistant set of beliefs that costs should not be socialised, i'd probably agree with you, but you do come across as having a bee in you bonnet wrt to obesity.
the state makes it "awkward" to smoke , drink and take drugs in this country , its hard to say that it makes much difference so why would adding obesity to the list make any difference? even if its combined with some good old fashioned shunning?

Emme

silverharp wrote: »

you need to focus your arguments, because you find a certain group visually annoying and may cause you some minor inconvenience at times , its hard to take you seriously on your economic or monetary arguments. it sounds like the latter is inspired by the former.
if you have a consistant set of beliefs that costs should not be socialised, i'd probably agree with you, but you do come across as having a bee in you bonnet wrt to obesity.
the state makes it "awkward" to smoke , drink and take drugs in this country , its hard to say that it makes much difference so why would adding obesity to the list make any difference? even if its combined with some good old fashioned shunning?

Somebody said earlier that obese people don't affect others and I disagreed. They do affect others. They make small spaces more crowded. They are less healthy and like smokers, drinkers etc. use more healthcare resources.

Anyway, it looks like you will all defend obesity till the cows come home and if that makes you happy then good luck to you. The responses I'm getting here aren't surprising considering how people responded to the Safefood campaign with the measuring tapes and recommended maximum waist sizes for men and women.

catch me if you can

Emme wrote: »

Somebody said earlier that obese people don't affect others and I disagreed. They do affect others. They make small spaces more crowded. They are less healthy and like smokers, drinkers etc. use more healthcare resources.

Anyway, it looks like you will defend obesity till the cows come home and if that makes you happy then fine.

They make small spaces more crowded,

do you realise how ridiculous your argument sounds? I find the most irritating people in small spaces are misbehaving children and crying babies myself. But even then im generally a happy person and i dont allow my head to be filled with such negative and bigoted thoughts.
If an overweight person pays their own doctor bills and has health insurance then they are entitled to avail of it.
Im a taxpayer and a mother , never claimed any assistance in my life. I work full time , i look after my own, and as for poking my nose into other peoples weight i have absolutely no interest. Time, and too much of it on your hands Emme, springs to mind.

Emme

catch me if you can wrote: »

do you realise how ridiculous your argument sounds? I find the most irritating people in small spaces are misbehaving children and crying babies myself. But even then im generally a happy person and i dont allow my head to be filled with such negative and bigoted thoughts.

Really, I'd never have thought so.

catch me if you can wrote: »

If an overweight person pays their own doctor bills and has health insurance then they are entitled to avail of it.

You're right, it's their money, and if they choose to ignore the doctor's advice to lose weight then that's their problem.

catch me if you can wrote: »

Im a taxpayer and a mother , never claimed any assistance in my life. I work full time , i look after my own, and as for poking my nose into other peoples weight i have absolutely no interest. Time, and too much of it on your hands Emme, springs to mind.

Do you think that being a taxpayer and a mother makes you better than other people? You're lucky you never had to claim assistance, thankfully the one time I did wasn't for very long. But I don't look down my nose at people who genuinely need to claim assistance. The way it is these days, any of us could be in that position.

Oh, if you have such little interest why bother posting here?

silverharp

Emme wrote: »

Somebody said earlier that obese people don't affect others and I disagreed. They do affect others. They make small spaces more crowded. They are less healthy and like smokers, drinkers etc. use more healthcare resources.

Anyway, it looks like you will all defend obesity till the cows come home and if that makes you happy then good luck to you. The responses I'm getting here aren't surprising considering how people responded to the Safefood campaign with the measuring tapes and recommended maximum waist sizes for men and women.

I'm not defending obesity , I'm questioning what you want or expect to be done about it. it is probably one of the biggest health issues for this generation. Its a complicated issue thats all, there is more to it then telling obese people to cop on.

catch me if you can

Emme wrote: »

Really, I'd never have thought so.



You're right, it's their money, and if they choose to ignore the doctor's advice to lose weight then that's their problem.



Do you think that being a taxpayer and a mother makes you better than other people? You're lucky you never had to claim assistance, thankfully the one time I did wasn't for very long. But I don't look down my nose at people who genuinely need to claim assistance. The way it is these days, any of us could be in that position.

Oh, if you have such little interest why bother posting here?

I have no problem with people on social welfare Emme.
My point was that as a taxpayer I do not mind my tax going on the costs of healthcare for obese people. Or anyone with an addiction or a disease for that matter. I dont agree with singling people out and labelling them as different or a freak.
And it would make me sick to see obese people being forced to board a plane last so the socially acceptable thin people can sit first.
Yes obesity is a problem, but your ideas of shaming people pubically are going to help no one.
And i posted here because it saddens me that perhaps an overweight person might stumble across your posts and think you are the norm. and you most certainly are not. people get overweight for many reasons, some are lazy but some have deep seethed issues.

prinz

Being unhealthily underweight is socially acceptable, and not only that but is actually promoted as an ideal at times through advertising, modelling, obsession with dieting, what celebrity has lost weight etc etc.

The problems caused by this and other mental/eating disorders and costs on the health system are also massive. When people put as much effort and concern into raising that issue I'd be more willing to hear them on the obesity issue.

CerebralCortex

prinz wrote: »

Being unhealthily underweight is socially acceptable, and not only that but is actually promoted as an ideal at times through advertising, modelling, obsession with dieting, what celebrity has lost weight etc etc.

The problems caused by this and other mental/eating disorders and costs on the health system are also massive. When people put as much effort and concern into raising that issue I'd be more willing to hear them on the obesity issue.

Spare us you sanctimonious Christian nonsense! There are far more overweight/obese people in society than underweight, this is obvious. While I agree the western diet has a long way to go before I would consider it healthy regardless of weight, obesity is the issue of the day!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

prinz

CerebralCortex wrote: »

There are far more overweight/obese people in society than underweight, this is obvious. While I agree the western diet has a long way to go before I would consider it healthy regardless of weight, obesity is the issue of the day!

My point was more in relation to the reaction to both. Comments from the original thread included gems like obese people should be refused large portions, obese people should be taxed extra etc. To me that's as ridiculous as a restaurant refusing to serve an underweight customer a salad.

Body image is a massive issue in this and other western countries.

For example, 40 per cent of 1st, 2nd or 3rd grade girls want to be thinner. And 80 per cent of 10 year olds are worried in case they become fat. In another survey, 70 percent of 6th grade girls surveyed said that their concern about their weight, shape and diet started when they were aged 9-11.

In one American survey, 81% of ten-year-old girls had already dieted at least once. A recent Swedish study found that 25% of 7 year old girls had dieted to lose weight – they were already suffering from 'body-image distortion', estimating themselves to be larger than they really were. Similar studies in Japan have found that 41% of elementary school girls (some as young as 6) thought they were too fat. Even normal-weight and underweight girls want to lose weight.

A Harvard University study showed that up to two thirds of underweight 12-year-old girls considered themselves to be too fat

http://www.sirc.org/publik/mirror.html

We have something similar in a survey published yesterday, which suggest that 47 per cent - nearly half - of five- to seven-year-olds want to be slimmer than they are

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3615409/Women-may-come-to-hate-their-bodies-but-five-year-old-girls.html

A fifth of the girls were overweight, but three-fifths of them thought they needed to lose weight and 64 per cent of under-13s had already been on a diet.....She said it was "tragic" that even girls of a normal weight wanted to be skinnier.

http://www.rense.com/general47/unhap.htm

Last week's study by the University of Ulster surveyed 400 girls aged between 13 and 17. It found that three quarters were dissatisfied with their current body shape. The report also found that this body dissatisfaction increased with age, while 80 per cent of the girls surveyed said it was important for them to be slim.
Elaine Mooney, the University of Ulster doctoral student who carried out the research, says that girls as young as 13 are aware of the size zero craze and some are striving to attain the dangerous measurements.
"The number one feature that they all wanted to change was their weight. They wanted to be thinner. That was the first thing they all set their sights on. They weren't into curves, they were into the stick-thin look and they were big into the double zero phenomenon," she said.

http://www.independent.ie/health/diet-fitness/gastricband-surgery-is-the-latest-step-for-girls-who-long-to-be-thinner-892553.html

Obesity is a major issue, but body image in general is the bigger issue IMO. In not one of the sources above was the concern with weight put down to good health factors. It was image. Looks. Celebrities. Add in the fact that anorexia has the highest death rate of any psychiatric disorder. Now you can focus on obesity all you want but it's only targetting a percentage of the problem and could actually be increasing the problems at the other extreme. The focus should be on healthy eating, and healthy weight for all. The Supersize v. Superskinny TV programme is a good highlight of this. Unfortunately our society/media etc is so hung up on the idea of obesity, the other side of the healthy weight coin is often ignored and actually encouraged.

Is it right for obesity to become socially acceptable? No. Is it right for unhealthily low sizes to become socially acceptable? Oops, boat has already kind of sailed on that one.

CerebralCortex

prinz wrote: »

My point was more in relation to the reaction to both. Comments from the original thread included gems like obese people should be refused large portions, obese people should be taxed extra etc. To me that's as ridiculous as a restaurant refusing to serve an underweight customer a salad.

Body image is a massive issue in this and other western countries.

http://www.sirc.org/publik/mirror.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3615409/Women-may-come-to-hate-their-bodies-but-five-year-old-girls.html

http://www.rense.com/general47/unhap.htm



http://www.independent.ie/health/diet-fitness/gastricband-surgery-is-the-latest-step-for-girls-who-long-to-be-thinner-892553.html

I completely agree. This article characterises my views on the subject.

prinz wrote: »

Obesity is a major issue, but body image in general is the bigger issue IMO.

In terms of physical health and the burden on wider society, I'd completely disagree. In fact ever heard of calorie restriction optimal nutrition? I'm not suggesting anybody should do it but being thin doesn't create huge health care bills comparable to obesity.

prinz wrote: »

In not one of the sources above was the concern with weight put down to good health factors. It was image. Looks. Celebrities. Add in the fact that anorexia has the highest death rate of any psychiatric disorder. Now you can focus on obesity all you want but it's only targetting a percentage of the problem and could actually be increasing the problems at the other extreme. The focus should be on healthy eating, and healthy weight for all. The Supersize v. Superskinny TV programme is a good highlight of this. Unfortunately our society/media etc is so hung up on the idea of obesity, the other side of the healthy weight coin is often ignored and actually encouraged.

Is it right for obesity to become socially acceptable? No. Is it right for unhealthily low sizes to become socially acceptable? Oops, boat has already kind of sailed on that one.

Again I agree with the point that some women have distorted view of what a healthy woman looks like and what they think an attractive woman looks like, causing all kinds of psychological problems, but obesity is almost an epidemic. Too many calories and too much of the wrong type of food (essentially grass[bread], due to FDA insistence on the importance of grains).

Anecdotally there are very few single chins where I work.

prinz

CerebralCortex wrote: »

In terms of physical health and the burden on wider society, I'd completely disagree. In fact ever heard of calorie restriction optimal nutrition? I'm not suggesting anybody should do it but being thin doesn't create huge health care bills comparable to obesity..

Being healthily 'thin' i.e. within the healthy weight range doesn't. Is obesity having a bigger cost to the state, yes. But it should also be noted that for adolescents admitted to psychiatric care in Ireland, eating disorders is the second most prevalent reason, and that an estimated 200,000 Irish people are estimated to suffer from various forms of eating disorder..

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfojojsnojql/rss2/

Like I said, the focus should be on health, healthy weight ranges, healthy eating, and promoting a more active lifestyle as opposed to simply focusing on obesity and leaving the media/fashion/celebrity world to idealise the other unhealthy extreme.

CerebralCortex

prinz wrote: »

Being healthily 'thin' i.e. within the healthy weight range doesn't. Is obesity having a bigger cost to the state, yes. But it should also be noted that for adolescents admitted to psychiatric care in Ireland, eating disorders is the second most prevalent reason, and that an estimated 200,000 Irish people are estimated to suffer from various forms of eating disorder..

No dispute there.

prinz wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfojojsnojql/rss2/

The jury is still out for me on orthorexia, considering most people haven't a clue what healthy eating is to begin with I don't think it's as big a worry as anorexia or bulimia or for that matter obesity.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/orthorexia-nervosa/

prinz wrote: »

Like I said, the focus should be on health, healthy weight ranges, healthy eating, and promoting a more active lifestyle as opposed to simply focusing on obesity and leaving the media/fashion/celebrity world to idealise the other unhealthy extreme.

Unfortunately the large agricultural and pharmaceutical lobby will always be in the way of that but that's for another discussion.

Lanaier

catch me if you can wrote: »

So is alcholism, drug addiction , gambling etc. should we segregate all of the people in society who do not conform to the norm.
There was a man who agreed with you Emme, his name was Adolph. I think you two would have made a cute couple.

lol you always know an argument is weak when they go straight for the Hitler approach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

There's a crazy amount of prejudices coming into how people look at obesity. On the one hand there's not judging people by how they look, on the other there's the huge disdain people have for greed or a lack of self control (especially when *gasp* it makes you look ugly). There's nature vs. nurture. There's the whole western capitalist glee about self-indulgence and the "I'm worth it" attitude, and then there's "people are starving in the world". There's the fact that most people know what it's like to pig out, and a lot of people know what it's like to have a guilt ridden relationship with food, so nearly everyone can on some level relate to obese people. And you have to eat. It's not like being a smoker or a binge drinker where you can just give it up.

I don't know. 99% of the time when people say they're obese because of genetics I call bull****. I don't think it's okay for it to be socially acceptable to be obese, but that's because it's a perfect example of the decadence and unearned privilege of the first world lifestyle (yes says she sitting on her laptop with her fridge full of food, I realise it's hypocritical). Individual obese people don't bother me, I don't think it necessarily is a good indicator of anything else about their personality, having never been overweight myself I don't feel I'm in a position to judge them, and I use the roads, hospitals and emergency services in this country (and I smoke and I'm unemployed) so I'm not going to go off on one about them wasting tax money.

Dudess

Of course it's not right - it's a serious health problem. At the same time though, I don't understand dislike of obese people for being obese - their lifestyle generally doesn't affect others (strangers especially) apart from others not liking how they look, which says more about them than the obese person. I don't think it looks attractive, but I wouldn't feel resentment towards the person for not being hot enough.

hardy_buck wrote: »

Personally I really don't like how people use political correctness to justify a lack of self discipline.

Who does that?

Zen65

I think the question put by OP was whether or not obesity should be considered socially acceptable?

My own thoughts on the matter are that obesity reflect an illness in society; that a person can continually eat more than they need while so many people in the country go hungry. It is a poor use of our limited natural resources, and it inflicts ill-health on the obese person which may require the support of the tax-payer to effect a remedy.

Let me not appear greater-than-thou. My own weight is above the ideal and I regularly take steps to prevent it from becoming a health issue for me. I try to be moderate in my eating habits, but it is only because of my regular exercise that I remain a stable weight (which is at the upper limit of "norm" for my height). As I age I find it harder to maintain a healthy weight because I tend to be less active (outside of the dojo).

My feelings on obese people relates primarily to the way they treat their own children. Where an obese person takes extra care to ensure their children do not over-eat I admire them for facing up to their responsibilities, learning from the mistakes of their own past. Both of my parents were smokers yet neither I nor any of my siblings ever smoked, due in part to the fact that they were careful enough to point out to us how wrong the habit was. Added to which it killed my father at a very young age, which was a suitable discouragement.

Conversely where I see parents feeding warm lard to their already-overweight children it raises my blood pressure just a bit. Today I was in a restaurant eating the kind of comfort-food I only occasionally feed to my children (who are all normal weight) and I saw three of four families where both parents and children were clearly overweight. At the table beside me the eldest child was a boy of (I guess) 12 or 13, yet he had such an obese torso that it wobbled as he moved and clearly interfered with his hips as he walked. I have to wonder why his parents were feeding him such high-fat food, when the consequences of his diet were so evident to anyone who looked on.

For adults, well there's always free will and if your body shape isn't perfectly "ideal" then that's OK with me, but if your weight (high or low) is causing you health problems then I think it's right for society to expect you to sort this out yourself before healthcare services need to get involved. I don't mean to suggest that it's easy to do so, but it's sometimes not easy to do what needs to be done, and the proper role for society is to apply peer pressure so that the right thing gets done. That's how streets stay litter-free, taxes get paid, animals get cared for, and children are protected.

I'm ranting a little, apologies.

Short version: A healthy society should apply pressure for people to behave in a manner that prolongs the life and health of its members, and if this means making it clear that smoking, drink-driving, obesity and stealing are frowned upon then that's a good thing.


Be at peace,

Z

laoch na mona

it should be discouraged purely from a health point of view
that said I would not look down on some one because of their weight

LandL84

Obesity first of all is the gate to many different health issues. I think everyone is responsible (or should be) for themselves. Everyone is the master of their own body, so we all decide oursevles what and how much to eat, exercise or not, etc. But the worst thing is when obese parents overfeed their children and give them unhealthy food options. If they want to be obese and feel ok with that it's their choice, however at least they could try to keep their kids from the same lifestyle, because kids can't choose, they usually don't have much understanding about it, so it's parents responsibility to raise healty children if they care about their health and their future.

scriba

To return to the original topic, everyone really has the right to live as they see fit. But to say that obesity should be socially acceptable is really to bury one's head in the sand. To be obese is one thing: no-one should be mistreated or ostracised for being as they are. But neither should obesity be regarded as a valid life choice or dressed up as such. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but to actively support an unhealthy state, particularly in children, seems wrong to me. Parents have a responsibility to ensure that their children are in the best possible health. This means proper diet, exercise and a basic awareness of the relationship between health, exercise and nutrition. Ignorance of such details should not be an excuse.

It is difficult to lose weight, especially with regards to motivation, awareness, and self-esteem (I know this first hand). We should acknowledge and respect that, and tackle it accordingly. But we should not accept obesity itself, in our friends, family or society in general. I would not (and have not in the past) sit idly by as someone I know or love gains weight to an unhealthy level, just as I would have loved someone to step in when I started gaining weight. An obese person knows that they are obese, as does the friend or family member who sees an obese person. Do all parties then just accept that they are obese and move on?

DeleveleD

What I enjoy most about this topic is, that it is so current. There once was a time where it would not have been socially acceptable for a common person to be overweigt. That was a privilege left for the higher classes.
Only poor people were skinny.

mari2222

Fat chance of anyone agreeing on an answer here!