What is the Irish nation?

ninjasurfer1

Apologies for the long post.

I was reading the Irish constitution earlier and noticed that Article 2 (along with the Nineteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland) states that:

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland."

While it is the right of any and all citizens of the island of Ireland to be part of the "Irish Nation", what does this really entail?

For example, someone from the 6 counties may be an irish (or dual) citizen, but (correct me if i'm wrong) are not bound by any irish laws, but rather are covered under British laws.

Question: With Irish citizenship, are they deemed under the constitution to be part of the irish nation?

If so, whats the point of having irish citizenship if they are not covered under Irish state laws? i.e. How can people be part of the same "nation" but be subject to different laws?

The World Book Dictionary defines nation as “the people occupying the same country, united under the same government, and usually speaking the same language”.

Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government”

Given these descriptions of nationhood, it would appear that there are currently two nations inhabiting this island regardless of citizenship.

The constitution (article 3) states that :

"It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island".

Does this actually mean "it is the firm will of the 26 county irish state"?

I'm confused with the whole thing. Should the constitution be changed to refer to an irish state rather than an aspirational (and fuzzy) "nation".

If anyone can shed some light on the actual meaning of the "irish nation" in the constitution i'd appreciate it.

note: i put the bold emphasis on the "irish nation" quotes from the constitution.

adam500

Its a valid argument with a very good point. I don't have the answers but I do belive its not very well defined, the definition of this nation, Ireland.

murrayp4

In constitutional law the 'nation' refers to the people while the 'state' refers to the territory i.e. the 26 counties.
Irish people or those part of the Irish nation are not subject to Irish laws (with some extraterritorial exceptions) while they are in another jurisdiction e.g. the North.

ninjasurfer1

murrayp4 wrote: »

In constitutional law the 'nation' refers to the people while the 'state' refers to the territory i.e. the 26 counties.
Irish people or those part of the Irish nation are not subject to Irish laws (with some extraterritorial exceptions) while they are in another jurisdiction e.g. the North.

Given that it is the people that make up the "nation", once they go outside of the state and under another countries laws (such as N. Ireland), do they then cease to be part of the nation"?

edit: Also, if the people make up the nation, is it then a case of automatically inferring "nation" status on anyone born on the island of ireland?

FTA69

I'd say a nation is a people sharing a sense of origin from one country, in our own case I would believe the Irish nation consists of the people of Ireland and would definitely include Unionists in that. I would reject the notion that it has to do with being united under one government. For over a hundred years Ireland wasn't a separate state at all, rather it was an integral part of the United Kingdom; however I don't think anyone would seriously contend that as a result of this there was no such place as Ireland, and no such thing as an Irish people.

You could also use the example of the Kurds, which could be considered a nation despite them being spread out between five odd diverse states.

OhNoYouDidn't

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Given that it is the people that make up the "nation", once they go outside of the state and under another countries laws (such as N. Ireland), do they then cease to be part of the nation"?

No. The opposite.

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

edit: Also, if the people make up the nation, is it then a case of automatically inferring "nation" status on anyone born on the island of ireland?

I would like to think so, but McDowall's referendum changed that.

KeithAFC

Does this actually mean "it is the firm will of the 26 county irish state"?

Yes. That is what the ROI is for.

KeithAFC

edit: Also, if the people make up the nation, is it then a case of automatically inferring "nation" status on anyone born on the island of ireland?

No. It can't be. The Irish nation is not the island.

ninjasurfer1

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes. That is what the ROI is for.

Thats the thing though. Its the Constitution of Ireland , not the constitution of the Republic of Ireland (the term ROI came in in 1948, the constitution is there since 1937).
As such, it would appear to cover everyone on the island?

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. It can't be. The Irish nation is not the island.

We think it does, our constitution says it does, and our President is from a part of the Irish nation that is under British occupation.

KeithAFC

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Thats the thing though. Its the Constitution of Ireland , not the constitution of the Republic of Ireland (the term ROI came in in 1948, the constitution is there since 1937).
As such, it would appear to cover everyone on the island?

The constituion is a bit messed up then.

OhNoYouDidn't

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Thats the thing though. Its the Constitution of Ireland , not the constitution of the Republic of Ireland (the term ROI came in in 1948, the constitution is there since 1937).
As such, it would appear to cover everyone on the island?

Yes, and it is very deliberately written to do so.

As a state, we claim the whole nation / island. This cannot be news to you

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

The constituion is a bit messed up then.

Not really. Its a robust document that was very radical when written and has served us very well.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes, and it is very deliberately written to do so.

As a state, we claim the whole nation / island. This cannot be news to you

You can't claim the whole island.

Dun

OP, Irish citizenship is open to anybody whose parent or grandparent was/is an Irish citizenship. Are you proposing that they shouldn't be allowed to take citizenship either, or are you just aiming it at people in the six counties? Just because the plantation was heaviest in those counties, does that mean that the people who were in that area and were therefore "left behind" during partition are no longer Irish? What if that county happened to be yours and you were now part of an "Eastern Ireland" or "Southern Ireland" or wherever you happen to be. Do you feel that would make you not Irish?


Articles 2 and 3 were deliberately rewritten to be less inflammatory, for want of a better word, to unionists as part of the Good Friday agreement, so that's the reason for referring to the people rather than the boundaries of the State.

FTA69

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. It can't be. The Irish nation is not the island.

Nobody said it's an island, it is the people who inhabit this island and that includes yourself. Unionists are as much a part of the Irish nation as anyone else, I'm not denying the fact they also have a British identity, but they're still Irish considered themselves that for hundreds of years.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

You can't claim the whole island.

We can and we have.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We can and we have.

Why though? You can't just throw a tri colour around us and expect us to be in your Irish nation unless the majority of people in that country you claim to say is yours want to be apart of the Republic.

ninjasurfer1

Dun wrote: »

OP, Irish citizenship is open to anybody whose parent or grandparent was/is an Irish citizenship. Are you proposing that they shouldn't be allowed to take citizenship either, or are you just aiming it at people in the six counties? Just because the plantation was heaviest in those counties, does that mean that the people who were in that area and were therefore "left behind" during partition are no longer Irish? What if that county happened to be yours and you were now part of an "Eastern Ireland" or "Southern Ireland" or wherever you happen to be. Do you feel that would make you not Irish?


Articles 2 and 3 were deliberately rewritten to be less inflammatory, for want of a better word, to unionists as part of the Good Friday agreement, so that's the reason for referring to the people rather than the boundaries of the State.

Hi, I fully agree that anyone from the island of ireland should have the right to claim irish citizenship if they so choose.

My question was what defines the irish nation. Is it citizenship (with the possibility of not being bound by any of the laws, etc) that defines the irish nation, or is it being part of the state, and laws, etc, that make up the nation?

The constitution seems (to me at least) to be a bit vague on this.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why though? You can't just throw a tri colour around us and expect us to be in your Irish nation unless the majority of people in that country you claim to say is yours want to be apart of the Republic.

Put another way

me, 800 years ago wrote: »

Why though? You can't just throw a union flag around us and expect us to be in your British nation unless the majority of people in that country you claim to say is yours want to be apart of the UK.

OhNoYouDidn't

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Hi, I fully agree that anyone from the island of ireland should have the right to claim irish citizenship if they so choose.

My question was what defines the irish nation. Is it citizenship (with the possibility of not being bound by any of the laws, etc) that defines the irish nation, or is it being part of the state, and laws, etc, that make up the nation?

The constitution seems (to me at least) to be a bit vague on this.

The constitution was explicit in that it offered legal protection to the hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women living under foreign rule. You may consider it vague, but it was very, very deliberate in what it set out to achieve.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Put another way

Your constituion is vague and sounds like a lot of nonsense in all honesty. It should be re written.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

Your constituion is vague and sounds like a lot of nonsense in all honesty. It should be re written.

This from a subject of a country without one?

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

This from a subject of a country without one?

We are in the UK. That is good enough for us. We don't need to be told we belong to some Irish nation or want to be ruled from Dublin.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

We are in the UK. That is good enough for us. We don't need to be told we belong to some Irish nation or want to be ruled from Dublin.

And what happens to the 50% of the population who don't want to be ruled by the 'UK'?

Tough?

KeithAFC

When did that happen?

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

When did that happen?

The 48%. Who cares. Answer the question

ninjasurfer1

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The constitution was explicit in that it offered legal protection to the hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women living under foreign rule. You may consider it vague, but it was very, very deliberate in what it set out to achieve.

Hi OhNoYouDidn't,
Do you know what legal protection it gave to the irish men and women up north?
Was it even recognised as they would be considered to be british and/or subject to british rule up north?

OhNoYouDidn't

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Hi OhNoYouDidn't,
Do you know what legal protection it gave to the irish men and women up north?
Was it even recognised as they would be considered to be british and/or subject to british rule up north?

It was of course limited. Citizenship and high level representation when their rights were abused, for all it did. It was symbolic, but symbols matter in the 6 counties.

maxxie

KeithAFC wrote: »

You can't claim the whole island.

You cant come from another island and claim apart of someone elses

KeithAFC

maxxie wrote: »

You cant come from another island and claim apart of someone elses

It wasn't yours.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The 48%. Who cares. Answer the question

What 48%?

StupidLikeAFox

KeithAFC wrote: »

You can't claim the whole island.

The current constitution doesnt. The Good Friday Agreement changed this, the original constitution stated:
The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.


But the referendum we had substituted this in its place:
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

Which I think means that if your born on the island you are entitled to be part of the Republic if you so wish

View

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

I'm confused with the whole thing. Should the constitution be changed to refer to an irish state rather than an aspirational (and fuzzy) "nation".

It is intended to be vague and confusing as it involved taking a step away from the old Articles 2 & 3. Let another 100 years or so go by and the issue will be irrelevant as no one will care about it one way or another.

ninjasurfer1

View wrote: »

It is intended to be vague and confusing as it involved taking a step away from the old Articles 2 & 3. Let another 100 years or so go by and the issue will be irrelevant as no one will care about it one way or another.

Thats what i thought!!

Hopefully you're right about the last piece about it not mattering down the line!!

maxxie

KeithAFC wrote: »

It wasn't yours.

It was occupied by native Irish. A tornado didn't just drop a load of your lot down with the rain one day.

maxxie

KeithAFC wrote: »

What 48%?

I have asked this question so many times, why do you come on here. All you do is look for arguement's.

Surely there is a nationalist school near you that you can go up to and throw stones at the children!

KeithAFC

maxxie wrote: »

It was occupied by native Irish. A tornado didn't just drop a load of your lot down with the rain one day.

What do you mean by native Irish and which period are you talking about? Before or after the Ulster plantation?

junder

maxxie wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

You can't claim the whole island.

You cant come from another island and claim apart of someone elses

What island was that, last time I checked I was born and reared in northern ireland

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

It wasn't yours.

What wasn't? The north eastern corner was an unpopualted wasteland when your tribe rocked up and decided to move in?

maxxie

junder wrote: »

What island was that, last time I checked I was born and reared in northern ireland

You were born and reared in the North of IRELAND. An area of our country which was taken and settled by people loyal to your royal family.

Say what you want but they are the basic facts.

charlemont

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. It can't be. The Irish nation is not the island.

It works both ways though, Irish citizens by law are treated the same as British citizens in the U.K.

dlofnep

The Irish nation includes the entire Island of Ireland, along with surrounding lesser islands. The Irish nation did not end with partition. Nations can and often do transcend borders. Korea for example is politically divided, but the Koreas make up a Korean nation.

Naturally our resident Boards.ie unionists will express shock at such an idea of an Irish nation. They believe that somehow in a post 1922-Ireland, the idea of an Irish nation was completely wiped from history. Convenient for them, but unfortunately not in tune with reality.

We are not a nation to them, but yet have many All-Ireland sporting teams and events, island-wide festivals and celebrations, shared culture, history and language. If there was ever a case for a politically divided area being a single nation - it is Ireland. And not even Ian Paisley himself would dispute that.

junder

maxxie wrote: »

junder wrote: »

What island was that, last time I checked I was born and reared in northern ireland

You were born and reared in the North of IRELAND. An area of our country which was taken and settled by people loyal to your royal family.

Say what you want but they are the basic facts.

That's what I said, I was born north of Ireland in a wee country called northern Ireland which is a sepperate enity from your so called Irish nation. And while you may try and claim our land you cannot claim our souls, I for one reject your claim over me, I am not Irish.

OhNoYouDidn't

junder wrote: »

That's what I said, I was born north of Ireland in a wee country called northern Ireland which is a sepperate enity from your so called Irish nation. And while you may try and claim our land you cannot claim our souls, I for one reject your claim over me, I am not Irish.

What are you then?

maxxie

junder wrote: »

That's what I said, I was born north of Ireland in a wee country called northern Ireland which is a sepperate enity from your so called Irish nation. And while you may try and claim our land you cannot claim our souls, I for one reject your claim over me, I am not Irish.

:pac:

junder

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

junder wrote: »

That's what I said, I was born north of Ireland in a wee country called northern Ireland which is a sepperate enity from your so called Irish nation. And while you may try and claim our land you cannot claim our souls, I for one reject your claim over me, I am not Irish.

What are you then?

I am many things

Richard

KeithAFC wrote: »

You can't claim the whole island.

Well they could. I mean they used to. Sort of. But they don't any more.

Richard

To be honest, the whole concept of nationhood expressed in the Irish constitution is vague enough to satisfy most people.

But, to be honest, the whole concept of a homogenous Irish nation (or British nation, for that matter) either today or especially 800 years ago is a bit unrealistic.

nordydan

junder wrote: »

That's what I said, I was born north of Ireland...... I am not Irish.

Congratulations for defining what you are not.

Maybe you'd like to tell the class wharf you are? A Venn diagram may be useful!

junder

nordydan wrote: »

junder wrote: »

That's what I said, I was born north of Ireland...... I am not Irish.

Congratulations for defining what you are not.

Maybe you'd like to tell the class wharf you are? A Venn diagram may be useful!

I am he who is x, y and zee
I carry no card, my life is cheap
Have no worries, I do not fret
Some may have what I'm yet to get