Please advise on my updated Diet and Starting Strength training program

blsw

ive revised my goal going on advice on the other thread

ive finished novice phase in starting strength. I train 3 days per week weights with 1-2days skipping rope exercise for recovery.

My lifts are
deadlift 90kg/5 rep
Squat 77.5kg/5 rep
Bench 75kg/5 rep
Shoulder press 55kg/5rep

Im not sure if i use my lean bodyweight or total bodyweight when using the strength standards table. My squat is very poor going by rippetoes strength standards table using my total bodyweight.

ideally i would like to weigh 12st 7lb with 15% body fat. currently i am 12st 6lb with 25% body fat.

that means i am at 131.25lbs muscle 43.75fat
and i need to get to 148.75lbs muscle 26.25fat

My corrected calcs on fitdayare below

breakfast
80g porridge with 1 glass low fat milk,25g flaxseed,47g raisins, 20 almonds,3 poached eggs,1 toast, 125g yoghurt, 2 mandarin oranges
lunch
2 138g potatoes or 100g of pasta, 4oz salmon, 2 cups broccoli and spinach, 1 glass low fat milk
dinner
2 138g potatoes or 100g of pasta, 4oz beef or chicken, 2 cups carrots and cabbage, 1 glass low fat milk, sometimes chocolate or desert
bedtime
200g low fat cottage cheese,1 50g scoop peanut buter, 1 glass low fat milk, 25g flaxseed

Non Training Day
cals 4095
carbs 364g
protein 233g
fat 186g

Training day( above diet with with pwo whey and 50g dextrose)
cals 4667
carbs 408g
protein 257g
fat 187g

Should i be using a pre workout shake and whey shake during the training session?

I understand that for me at 12st 7lb to
gain weight I multiply bodyweight by 25cals per pound = 4375
maintain its multiply bodyweight by 18cals per pound = 3150
lose its multiply bodyeweight by 15cals per pound = 2625

I am eating between 4095-4667cls now but the weight im gaining isnt muscle , its fat. Im concerned that if I keep to the diet above ill just get fatter and if i cut cals ill end up losing what little muscle i have.

what approach would you take if you were in the same boat to get bodyfat down while staying at 12st 7lb and what adjustments would you make to the diet above?

Apologies for all the changes in diet info. i made some mistakes inputing the figures earlier

thanks for the replies earlier

Parsley

blsw wrote: »

ive finished novice phase in starting strength. I train 3 days per week weights with 1-2days skipping rope exercise for recovery.

My lifts are
deadlift 90kg/5 rep
Squat 77.5kg/5 rep
Bench 75kg/5 rep
Shoulder press 55kg/5rep

ahhh just from reading this far i'd say no, no you haven't finished the novice phase.

ray jay

You won't lose muscle if you keep training while cutting fat. Frankly I doubt you should eat more than 2000 cals/day if you want to lose the weight in a reasonable time frame. If you want 15% body fat, that means dieting down to 11 stone from what you weigh now, which is going to take a few months even with a decent deficit (e.g. one resulting in a >1lb loss/week).

blsw

To Parsley
Ive done 2 resets and am missing reps again. Rippetoe says when that happens you need to change to the intermediate program.

d'Oracle

blsw wrote: »

To Parsley
Ive done 2 resets and am missing reps again. Rippetoe says when that happens you need to change to the intermediate program.

Just curious, where are you getting this?

TimeToShine

blsw wrote: »

To Parsley
Ive done 2 resets and am missing reps again. Rippetoe says when that happens you need to change to the intermediate program.

yeah but you're dieting which makes this invalid because you were bound to plateau sooner than someone doing SS like it was intended (bulking)

Did you read practical programming? it lets you add assistance work to the SS template and help you break past plateaus.

Mellor

blsw wrote: »

My lifts are
deadlift 90kg/5 rep
Squat 77.5kg/5 rep
Bench 75kg/5 rep
Shoulder press 55kg/5rep

Im not sure if i use my lean bodyweight or total bodyweight when using the strength standards table. My squat is very poor going by rippetoes strength standards table using my total bodyweight.

You use total body weight when using the strength standards.
I agree with your assessment, your squat is disproportionately low compared to your other lifts.

ideally i would like to weigh 12st 7lb with 15% body fat. currently i am 12st 6lb with 25% body fat.

that means i am at 131.25lbs muscle 43.75fat
and i need to get to 148.75lbs muscle 26.25fat

Gaining 20lbs of muscle and losing 20 lbs of fat can't be done at the same time. I think I already said this to you in your last thread.

I understand that for me at 12st 7lb to
gain weight I multiply bodyweight by 25cals per pound = 4375
maintain its multiply bodyweight by 18cals per pound = 3150
lose its multiply bodyeweight by 15cals per pound = 2625

I think you are over estimating. You don't need to eat 4300 cals to prevent muscle loss. At 25% bf and given they your lifts aren't that high yet, you won't be burning the huge amounts of energy suggested above. You are less that 80kg, your maintenance isn't 3150.
Where did you get the figures of 25/18/15?
I'd say 20/16/12 is much more accurate.

TimeToShine wrote: »

yeah but you're dieting which makes this invalid because you were bound to plateau sooner than someone doing SS like it was intended (bulking)

He is eating 4300 cals, he is defo bulking.

blsw wrote: »

To Parsley
Ive done 2 resets and am missing reps again. Rippetoe says when that happens you need to change to the intermediate program.

I think Rippetoe was using that as a very rough guide. IMO you've defo stalled early. no longer being a novice is much more subjective than stalling twice.

I'd have to echo Parsley's initial thoughts and say given your numbers, you are still a novice. The problem with stalling could be down to bad form. Fix your form, lift more, get stronger.

You mentioned rippetoes strength standards, he includes ranges for novice, intermediate there. I'd say they are more accurate than stalling twice. but still by no means infallible.

Antisocialiser

Mellor wrote: »

The problem with stalling could be down to bad form.

+1

blsw

d'Oracle wrote: »

Just curious, where are you getting this?

practical programming page 163. towards the end of the novice chapter

For Mellor
I got my 25 for gaining/18 for maintaining /15 for losing weight from Tudor Bompas book Serious Strength Training. Everybody seems to have a different way of calculating calories required so its hard to know whos right and whos wrong.

One thing he advised is the The Metabolic Diet by Mauro Pasquale which has high fat high protein low carbs during the week and high carbs on weekdays which seems more like whats being advised here.

To be honest Im getting more bewildered the more Qs I ask.

Rippetoes advises on diet here on Starting Strength Forums

Im not sure what to do now.

Parsley

blsw wrote: »

To be honest Im getting more bewildered the more Qs I ask.
Im not sure what to do now.

i'd say stop worrying about this crap, and work harder in the gym. how long have you been doing SS?

blsw

7 months. I do work hard. I was hoping to get my lifts up higher but if you stall twice what option do you have

Not sure if you got this as I was editing when you posted.

Rippetoe advises on diet here http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/index.php? on Starting Strength Forums

Parsley

blsw wrote: »

7 months. I do work hard. I was hoping to get my lifts up higher but if you stall twice what option do you have

Not sure if you got this as I was editing when you posted.

Rippetoe advises on diet here http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/index.php? on Starting Strength Forums

there's something you're not doing right if you're 7 months in with those numbers, well on the squat anyway. i'd think. maybe i'm being harsh!

blsw

i know theres something im not doing right but what is it.

i use the high bar squat position rather than the low bar because it ends up resting on my shoulder blades in that position and doesnt feel too secure.

other than that my form is good for deads, shoulder press and bench.

rippetoe says dont use assistance exs until intermediate stage but maybe thats an option.

i find he give a lot of contradictory advice tbh. hes talking up isolation exercises like the triceps extension now but he was against these in his starting strength books.

he rowed back on the use of a gallon of milk a day also http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/index.php? while in his books its gospel to take it

ray jay

Keep in mind that the typical subject used in the books is pretty young. A gallon of milk per day is what he recommends because it's very easy for a teenager to drink extra calories. Often they won't have enough control over their diet to follow more involved diets.

You could try adding some core work on your skipping days, that's a frequent source of weakness for deadlifts and squats. Take a look at this article for some ideas (skip to the end for a short list of good exercises).

blsw

thanks for that link ray jay.

i was thinking of doing sit ups and back extensions on the skipping days but i thught it would interfere with recovery

i had considered doing some calisthenic circuits as well for conditioning but didnt for the same reason

TimeToShine

Why are you bulking if you're at 25% bodyfat?

Also, I don't see how you could be doing SS for 7 months. I think you may have misunderstood the book. It says to add 5lbs to your military press and bench and 10lbs to your squat and deadlift every workout. Normally the linear progression phase at this rate will last around 8-12 weeks, i dont see how you're going for 7 months unless you've deloaded like 10 times.

marathonic

blsw wrote: »

thanks for that link ray jay.

i was thinking of doing sit ups and back extensions on the skipping days but i thught it would interfere with recovery

i had considered doing some calisthenic circuits as well for conditioning but didnt for the same reason

I read a similar thread somewhere (think it was another forum) and the advice was to drop the Starting Strength to a 2-day program and add the conditioning and/or assistance excercises to the day that would have been your third day.

I think the idea behind it was that, in the event that your failed sets are the result of slow recovery, adding any additional work whilst continuing the 3-day program is only going to make this worse.

I'm not sure whether it works or not but, if you're at Starting Strength for 7 months and are repeatedly failing, I suppose there'd be no harm in trying it for a month. You could then to a reset on Starting Strength and see if there's any improvement.

blsw

TimeToShine wrote: »

Why are you bulking if you're at 25% bodyfat?

Also, I don't see how you could be doing SS for 7 months. I think you may have misunderstood the book. It says to add 5lbs to your military press and bench and 10lbs to your squat and deadlift every workout. Normally the linear progression phase at this rate will last around 8-12 weeks, i dont see how you're going for 7 months unless you've deloaded like 10 times.

From Practical Programming
So, for young males who weigh between 150 and 200 pounds, deadlifts can likely move up 15 to 20 pounds per workout , and squats 10 to 15 pounds , with continued steady progress for three to four weeks before slowing down to half that rate. Bench presses, presses, and cleans can move up 5 to 10 pounds per workout ,with progress on these exercises slowing down to 2.5 to 5 pounds per workout after only two to three weeks

Can someone tell me how to gauge correct squat depth. Im going well below parallell assuming parallell is the position of the thigh when sitting on a standard chair.

TimeToShine

blsw wrote: »

From Practical Programming
So, for young males who weigh between 150 and 200 pounds, deadlifts can likely move up 15 to 20 pounds per workout , and squats 10 to 15 pounds , with continued steady progress for three to four weeks before slowing down to half that rate. Bench presses, presses, and cleans can move up 5 to 10 pounds per workout ,with progress on these exercises slowing down to 2.5 to 5 pounds per workout after only two to three weeks

Can someone tell me how to gauge correct squat depth. Im going well below parallell assuming parallell is the position of the thigh when sitting on a standard chair.

notsureifsrs

There is some SERIOUS misinterpretation going on here, I mean holy crap.

As progress slows down you don't stop adding weight, you just add LESS weight. Are you saying you added the weight for 3-4 weeks and then stopped completely?

i dont mean to be condescending or a prick btw

Parsley

blsw wrote: »

currently i am 12st 6lb with 25% body fat.

not sure if accurate. this seems... very odd. that'd make you what, 9st and a bit lean body mass?? i don't think starting strength is for you. or bulking. i'd say try cycling, or rowing, or crossfit, and maybe some type of vaguely paleo-ish diet.

if you want some body recomposition, try getting the fat off, your fitness up, and then come back to strength-building/bulking.

what weight/bodyfat % were you BEFORE you started the programme?

blsw

Parsley wrote: »

not sure if accurate. this seems... very odd. that'd make you what, 9st and a bit lean body mass?? i don't think starting strength is for you. or bulking. i'd say try cycling, or rowing, or crossfit, and maybe some type of vaguely paleo-ish diet.

if you want some body recomposition, try getting the fat off, your fitness up, and then come back to strength-building/bulking.

what weight/bodyfat % were you BEFORE you started the programme?

To Parsley
Whats odd about it. Its what the scales says. why wouldnt SS be for me. Rippetoe constanly promotes it for skinny people. it makes me 130.5lbs lean mass and 43.4% fat.

If I was lean mass of 130.5 with 15% body fat my total weight would be 150Lb which is 10st 10lb. I consider 10st 10lb light for my height which is why i wanted to gain muscle and cut fat from my current weight of 12st 6lb 25% fat.

To Time to shine
Theres no misinterpretation going on. I know as progress slows down you dont stop adding weight, you just add less.

Heres what I was doing
I was adding 5kg per workout for squat and deadlift until i missed reps
then I added 2.5kg until i missed reps
then i added 1kg until missed rep
then i added .5kg until missed rep.
then i did 2 resets

I was adding 2.5kg per workout for bench and sh press until i missed rep
then i added 1kg until i missed reps
then i added .5kg until i misseds
then i did 2 resets

this all took about 7months with about 3-4 wks missed in between due to flu and travel etc

marathonic

Would you consider giving the body a break from Starting Strength for a month?

You could reduce the calories to 500 below maintenance (maintenance isn't 3,150 btw) for this time. Make sure all your calories are from good sources and you're getting your 200g+ of protein so as to maintain muscle mass.

Then add 3,500 calories worth of cardio per week - I like the rower because it burns the calories and works the legs (primarily), back and arms. You may prefer the bike, cross trainer or some other machine.

The 500 calorie below maintenance will burn 3,500 calories per week which equates to a pound of fat. The 3,500 calories worth of cardio will do the same.

After a month, you should have dropped 8lbs of fat if you're strict about it (no alcohol either). Then, you can up the calories, start back at Starting Strength and not worry about your bodyfat levels putting you into the clinically obese category (which, according to this wiki page is 25%+).

You never know, after the months break, you could end up breaking that plataeu - and have the added advantage of 8lbs less fat.

TimeToShine

blsw wrote: »

To Parsley
Whats odd about it. Its what the scales says. why wouldnt SS be for me. Rippetoe constanly promotes it for skinny people. it makes me 130.5lbs lean mass and 43.4% fat.

If I was lean mass of 130.5 with 15% body fat my total weight would be 150Lb which is 10st 10lb. I consider 10st 10lb light for my height which is why i wanted to gain muscle and cut fat from my current weight of 12st 6lb 25% fat.

To Time to shine
Theres no misinterpretation going on. I know as progress slows down you dont stop adding weight, you just add less.

Heres what I was doing
I was adding 5kg per workout for squat and deadlift until i missed reps
then I added 2.5kg until i missed reps
then i added 1kg until missed rep
then i added .5kg until missed rep.
then i did 2 resets

I was adding 2.5kg per workout for bench and sh press until i missed rep
then i added 1kg until i missed reps
then i added .5kg until i misseds
then i did 2 resets

this all took about 7months with about 3-4 wks missed in between due to flu and travel etc

6 months of SS is 24 weeks or 72 workouts, and since you squat every workout even if you only added 1kg per workout rather than 5kg your squat should still be at around 100kg, not 77.5kg.

regardless, i agree with marathonic that you should maybe take a break for a week or so and try and adjust your diet so you drop the body fat.

good luck

blsw

marathonic wrote: »

Would you consider giving the body a break from Starting Strength for a month?

You could reduce the calories to 500 below maintenance (maintenance isn't 3,150 btw) for this time. Make sure all your calories are from good sources and you're getting your 200g+ of protein so as to maintain muscle mass.

Then add 3,500 calories worth of cardio per week - I like the rower because it burns the calories and works the legs (primarily), back and arms. You may prefer the bike, cross trainer or some other machine.

The 500 calorie below maintenance will burn 3,500 calories per week which equates to a pound of fat. The 3,500 calories worth of cardio will do the same.

After a month, you should have dropped 8lbs of fat if you're strict about it (no alcohol either). Then, you can up the calories, start back at Starting Strength and not worry about your bodyfat levels putting you into the clinically obese category (which, according to this wiki page is 25%+).

You never know, after the months break, you could end up breaking that plataeu - and have the added advantage of 8lbs less fat.

i would definetly consider it. It feels like giving up on SS though.

Id need help designing the diet. Thats what made me post initally as I felt that was the reason given the effort i was putting in for little return

Would this work for the Cardio?
Mon = 1hr of weight/bodyweight circuits using 8-12reps per ex
Tue = 1hr running or skipping
Wed = 1hr of weight/bodyweight circuits using 15-20reps per ex
Thu = 1hr running or skipping
Fri = 1hr of weight/bodyweight circuits using 25-50reps per ex
Sat = 1hr running or skipping
Sun = 1hr running or skipping

marathonic

blsw wrote: »

i would definetly consider it. It feels like giving up on SS though.

Id need help designing the diet. Thats what made me post initally as I felt that was the reason given the effort i was putting in for little return

Would this work for the Cardio?
Mon = 1hr of weight/bodyweight circuits using 8-12reps per ex
Tue = 1hr running or skipping
Wed = 1hr of weight/bodyweight circuits using 15-20reps per ex
Thu = 1hr running or skipping
Fri = 1hr of weight/bodyweight circuits using 25-50reps per ex
Sat = 1hr running or skipping
Sun = 1hr running or skipping

As you're only doing it for a month, you could keep it simple for now and then decide on healthy subtitutes as time goes on. Use this to figure out your calories needs (I'd say the result will be very different to the current figure you have).

Then have you're diet as follows:

Breakfast:
Porrige with semi-skimmed milk (base the portion size on your calorie requirements. Some people don't like porrige - I like it uncooked but not heated. If you can't eat it either way, have eggs - boiled, poached, scrambled, omelettes, etc. Add nuts or seeds to either option for a good source of fat (but watch the portions).

Snack:
One piece of fruit, a yoghurt, some nuts or some cottage cheese (if you can eat this - which a lot of people can't)

Lunch:
Depends on the options available to you to cook. It can be leftovers from the night befores dinner or some other healthy option. I usually alternate between tuna and chicken (you can buy the packets of chicken/turkey pieces) and have either those frozen steamed vegetables that you microwave or some salad that you buy mixed in the bags.

Snack:
As above

Dinner:
Again, lean meat or fish (neither should be the breaded type) and plenty of veg. Try to avoid potatoes, rice and pasta but, if you must have them, keep the portions very small - as in, no more than one scoop (the size of an icecream scoop)

Snack:
If you need to snack again, you could consider a protein shake with semi-skimmed milk before bed. The milk will help it absorb slower throughout the night helping 'feed the muscles'



This thread contains a lot of good advice but may overwhelm you when getting started.

Regarding cardio, anything should do as long as it burns calories. I'd probably tend to steer clear of the Starting Strength excercises if your intention is to take a break from it in the hope of breaking that plateau.

blsw

thanks for all the help Marathonic. will re-calculate my calorie requirements and give that a go. ill get back to you in a month. will be interesting to see how many pounds i can drop and whether it kick starts the starting strength program.

on the exercises.
what would you substitute for bench, deadlift, squat and press when doing the circuits.

those lifts use a lot of muscles and burn lots of cals so thought they would be good to include.

blsw

TimeToShine wrote: »

6 months of SS is 24 weeks or 72 workouts, and since you squat every workout even if you only added 1kg per workout rather than 5kg your squat should still be at around 100kg, not 77.5kg.

regardless, i agree with marathonic that you should maybe take a break for a week or so and try and adjust your diet so you drop the body fat.

good luck

yes but the weeks i had the flu and travelled knocked me back a bit so I had to regain. im going to give marathronics advice a go and then restart SS. hopefully it will work out. thanks for the help also

sorry lads forgot to ask if Im cutting cals do I still take dextrose with whey after training?

TimeToShine

whey is a calorie efficient source of protein so id recommend it on a cut.

marathonic

TimeToShine wrote: »

whey is a calorie efficient source of protein so id recommend it on a cut.

Agreed.... I'd take the whey and maybe half the dextrose serving (or omit it completely - it's unnecessary on a cut).

On the excercises, you could try a lot of the assistance/accessory excercises to Starting Strength as well as general cardio.