Myth? or maybe Ireland is really changing

I was reading something and the got me thinking.

There is a belief in some quarters that the middle aged and older pulled up the ladder and closed off any opportunity for you younger people.

For example entry to the public services is closed off

Restrictive practices in the profession are being closed off ( Doctors, Dentists, solicitors, ) meaning that in the future the professions wont make you wealthy in the way they did in the past,

There are lots of examples like the above.

But the way I see it is that in the future the only way of making money in the Irish economy will be by starting a business and creating your own wealth and that is the way it should be , yet somehow that is seen as somehow closing off opportunity for young people,

Comments.

Poly

Starting a business in Ireland is not a way to become wealthy, a business in this economy is only a stick for the govt. to beat you with.

Nijmegen

I don't think it was a grand conspiracy. Ireland just reverting to form: Educate and then export the young.

It's a really sad national weakness of ours that we keep allowing that to happen. Short term thinkers when things were good, short term thinkers when things are bad.

Permabear

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RedXIV

I'd disagree about the middle aged and older pulling the ladder up in certain sectors. My dad retired from the guards at 50 and wanted to do something in IT which he'd be more than capable of but he can't get in anywhere. Noone is willing to take on someone and train them at 50.

I definitely agree that starting a company in the country is horrendously difficult. I tried after college and we flopped as we had very little help when we went to the enterprise boards and similar bodies

tara73

Poly wrote: »

Starting a business in Ireland is not a way to become wealthy, a business in this economy is only a stick for the govt. to beat you with.

as a solace, it's not only ireland where they give you lots of hassle... most of the time it's never easy to create 'the big money' opening up your own business, no matter in which part of the world you are.

it always comes back to many circumstances I don't have the time at the mo to list.
if it would be easy, everybody would have their own business and would be a millionaire wouldn't it?:)

Sleepy

TBH, RedXIV, your father shouldn't be working. He's retired, presumably on a good pension as a former guard and the envy of most getting to retire so young. Any job he got would be at the expense to society of keeping one more person on welfare and, arguably, since he wouldn't need to live off his salary, contributing to lowering salaries in a healthy section of the labour market.

RedXIV

Sleepy wrote: »

TBH, RedXIV, your father shouldn't be working. He's retired, presumably on a good pension as a former guard and the envy of most getting to retire so young. Any job he got would be at the expense to society of keeping one more person on welfare and, arguably, since he wouldn't need to live off his salary, contributing to lowering salaries in a healthy section of the labour market.

I can see where you're coming from but I'm not about to tell him that. He's been retired for 6 months and is going crazy from not working. He's done some odd jobs here and there for guy in IT who simply couldn't hire someone but could use the occasional help. You're right though, my dad doesn't NEED the money, and as such, he's not looking for a highly paid job, minimum wage would be more than enough. He just doesn't want to sit at home and petrify. Surely we can't deny him that?

Permabear

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Morag

RedXIV there is plenty of volunteer work he can take on.

RedXIV

Permabear wrote: »

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Thats fair enough but that's not why he took the job in the first place. He took the job because it was the ONLY job he could get when he was my age in the 80s. We never went hungry in my house but we never had a lavish lifestyle either. He spent 30 years doing a job he disliked to provide for his family. If he wants to go into IT now, I'll do nothing but support him.

Permabear

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RedXIV

Sharrow wrote: »

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Permabear wrote: »

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He's done a bit already, he's been teaching computer courses and fixing computers for years. He's on the lookout for a paying job because more money will make his life more comfortable. Not alot but its the difference from him making do, to him treating himself once in a while.

Debtocracy

mariaalice wrote: »

But the way I see it is that in the future the only way of making money in the Irish economy will be by starting a business and creating your own wealth and that is the way it should be , yet somehow that is seen as somehow closing off opportunity for young people,

Comments.

Naivety. In these conditions, what idiot would risk setting up a business and becoming a debt slave to the banks. If you want to create your own wealth, take up the less riskier option of online poker.

And yes, too much wealth is distributed towards the older generations who will gain less value from the money - because they are infertile, less intelligent and of poorer health.

PhatPiggins

Debtocracy wrote: »

Naivety. In these conditions, what idiot would risk setting up a business and becoming a debt slave to the banks. If you want to create your own wealth, take up the less riskier option of online poker.

And yes, too much wealth is distributed towards the older generations who will gain less value from the money - because they are infertile, less intelligent and of poorer health.

That's a forum classic well done

irishh_bob

RedXIV wrote: »

I'd disagree about the middle aged and older pulling the ladder up in certain sectors. My dad retired from the guards at 50 and wanted to do something in IT which he'd be more than capable of but he can't get in anywhere. Noone is willing to take on someone and train them at 50.

I definitely agree that starting a company in the country is horrendously difficult. I tried after college and we flopped as we had very little help when we went to the enterprise boards and similar bodies

what does your father want taking a job which a younger person could so do with , hasnt he enough on those hefty garda pensions , my uncle is retired from the guards a few years now , he volunteers for four hours each day in st vincents hospital to pass the time

mattjack

RedXIV wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from but I'm not about to tell him that. He's been retired for 6 months and is going crazy from not working. He's done some odd jobs here and there for guy in IT who simply couldn't hire someone but could use the occasional help. You're right though, my dad doesn't NEED the money, and as such, he's not looking for a highly paid job, minimum wage would be more than enough. He just doesn't want to sit at home and petrify. Surely we can't deny him that?

fair play to him in trying to find work...how about he sets himself up as self employed and see if he can get some work himself...a lot of voluntary organisations would appreciate his skills, maybe if he priced his work reasonably he might some free lance work.

RedXIV

irishh_bob wrote: »

what does your father want taking a job which a younger person could so do with , hasnt he enough on those hefty garda pensions , my uncle is retired from the guards a few years now , he volunteers for four hours each day in st vincents hospital to pass the time

He's still paying for my sister's college tuition for the next 3 years so I'm guessing that that would be taking a chunk out of his pension. And as I said before, he's not able to get a job (yet) as people are hiring younger people so its pretty safe to assume if he does get one, he'll probably be the youngest/only candidate going for it.

mattjack wrote: »

fair play to him in trying to find work...how about he sets himself up as self employed and see if he can get some work himself...a lot of voluntary organisations would appreciate his skills, maybe if he priced his work reasonably he might some free lance work.

He's thought about going self employed but after the colossal mess up I had with the business side of it, he's nervous about anything to do with the tax side of things. I'll mention it to him though cheers!

Drumpot

Permabear wrote: »

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I do agree with your sentiments towards some of the more lavish, ridiculous perks enjoyed by certain public servants but my view is blame the system, not the player . .

My problem is with TDs, Unions and militant public servants who are prepared to push this country into even further turmoil to line their own pockets. We need a government that doesnt ask what changes or cuts it can make and one that doesnt give ridiculous , unjustified payoffs to everybody who is let go in the public service. .

I dont blame that garda taking his pension and doing another job. Might not agree with it for the points you highlighted, but if he was my dad (who is still working in his 70s - long story) I would support him.

Never ceases to amaze me how morally outraged people get about things that they know they would do if they were in the position of the person whom they focus their anger on . .

Permabear

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RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

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An that, is one of the greatest follies of humanity .

Drumpot

I still think its ridiculous that the same failed people in the department of Finance are still giving "impartial", "professional" advice to our new government . . Theres one bunch of public servants who I think we would benefit from giving 300+ holidays a year!

20Cent

RichardAnd wrote: »

An that, is one of the greatest follies of humanity .

Who doesn't look out for themselves?

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

I still think its ridiculous that the same failed people in the department of Finance are still giving "impartial", "professional" advice to our new government . . Theres one bunch of public servants who I think we would benefit from giving 300+ holidays a year!

Didn't it come out recently that Cowen and Bertie ignored repeated warnings from the department and even outside consultants. Not their fault then.

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

Who doesn't look out for themselves?

If theres one thing worse then people who look out for themselves at the expense of others, its people who look out for themselves at the expense of others and get upset when the self vested folly of their logic is highlighted . . There is a differance. .

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

Didn't it come out recently that Cowen and Bertie ignored repeated warnings from the department and even outside consultants. Not their fault then.

Who advised the government to give the banks a blanket guarantee despite all the contrary professional advice being given?

Who constantly got their forecasts wrong ?

We shouldnt be surprised considering how few economists are in the department of finance . .

RichardAnd

20Cent wrote: »

Who doesn't look out for themselves?

I look out for myself but I don't do things that will have ill affects on others for the sake of my own benifit. For example, if I met a woman towards whom I had a strong attraction, I would only pursue her if I was certain she was single as to do otherwise would be an attempt to gain from another's loss.

Of course, I am fully aware that there would be a string of men who would not lend me the same courtesy were our situiation's reversed but no one ever said being honest an upright would be easy. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right.

eyescreamcone

If the retired Garda wants to get a job then he should go for it!!!
Anybody that says he should not can go to hell!!!

It's a free market - let the best qualified get the jobs.
Nobody should be made feel that they have to give up a job for anybody!!!
If he wants to work until he's 90 then good for him.

Feck the begrudgers!!!

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

If theres one thing worse then people who look out for themselves at the expense of others, its people who look out for themselves at the expense of others and get upset when the self vested folly of their logic is highlighted . . There is a differance. .

Not hearing all this upset.

The PS are doing everything asked of them, no strikes, no big problems.
Maybe a few phonecalls to Joe Duffy and the odd Jack O'Connor rant besides that its been smooth sailing. The electorate voted in FG who back the CPA, the IMF seem fine with it also. Whats the problem?

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

Not hearing all this upset.

The PS are doing everything asked of them, no strikes, no big problems.
Maybe a few phonecalls to Joe Duffy and the odd Jack O'Connor rant besides that its been smooth sailing. The electorate voted in FG who back the CPA, the IMF seem fine with it also. Whats the problem?

The public service are doing everything that they agreed to, not everything that needs to be done, theres a differance.

With the Croke Park agreement, they prob couldnt believe their luck . .

They have been convinced by concurrent governments that they have an entitlement to so many things that are unjustifiable to the average Joe . .

Not sure what the electorate voting in FG has to do with what should be done . . Just because this and the last government refused to properly tackle the public service, doesnt make it right or ok ! !

Happyzebra

RedxIV fair dues to your dad for being smart enough to secure a job that would allow him to retire at 50. I wish him well on establishing a new career in IT.

The trouble with most people is that they hate to see others get on in life...I am sick of people moaning just because they weren't clever enough to spot and take advantage of an opportunity. In hindsight I wish I had the smarts to apply for the guards years ago so that I could enjoy early retirement on a nice pension but you know that's my bad!

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

The public service are doing everything that they agreed to, not everything that needs to be done, theres a differance.

With the Croke Park agreement, they prob couldnt believe their luck . .

They have been convinced by concurrent governments that they have an entitlement to so many things that are unjustifiable to the average Joe . .

Not sure what the electorate voting in FG has to do with what should be done . . Just because this and the last government refused to properly tackle the public service, doesnt make it right or ok ! !

The average joe voted for FG and labour who support the cpa so they must be for it. Where is the party or campaign for it to be scrapped? All the evidence seems to show that average joe is for it really.

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

The average joe voted for FG and labour who support the cpa so they must be for it. Where is the party or campaign for it to be scrapped? All the evidence seems to show that average joe is for it really.

People didnt vote for FG or Labour because they support the croke park agreement . . Dont be ridiculous . .

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

People didnt vote for FG or Labour because they support the croke park agreement . . Dont be ridiculous . .

I said "who support" not "because".
Where is this evidence that the average Joe is against the CPA?

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

I said "who support" not "because".
Where is this evidence that the average Joe is against the CPA?

You were implying that FG/Lab got into power because people supported Croke Park Agreement . .

Why else mention that they were voted into power ?. .

By that logic I could say that Bertie was kept in power by the very same people who benefited from Benchmarking . .

Permabear

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20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

You were implying that FG/Lab got into power because people supported Croke Park Agreement . .

Why else mention that they were voted into power ?. .

By that logic I could say that Bertie was kept in power by the very same people who benefited from Benchmarking . .

Maybe it looked that way.
Just asking where the proof is that the average joe is against the cpa?

Drumpot

20Cent wrote: »

Maybe it looked that way.
Just asking where the proof is that the average joe is against the cpa?

Forgive me for being a cynic in thinking you were just trying to take the debate into a cul de sac that stops any meaningful debate. .

Your quote was :

The average joe voted for FG and labour who support the cpa so they must be for it.

The average Joe must be for it . . Hmmmm . .

But Permebear confirmed that the average Joe voted for an FG government that promised to go further then the Croke park agreement, that did in fact not support it! . .

I think its safe to say that on the balance of what we are trying to gauge in terms of public opinion, there is more evidence to suggest that more people are against, then with the croke park agreement . .

Valmont

20Cent wrote: »

Who doesn't look out for themselves?

The far-left apparently. To do so would undoubtedly involve the exploitation of someone, somewhere.

Happyzebra wrote: »

The trouble with most people is that they hate to see others get on in life...I am sick of people moaning just because they weren't clever enough to spot and take advantage of an opportunity. In hindsight I wish I had the smarts to apply for the guards years ago so that I could enjoy early retirement on a nice pension but you know that's my bad!

I agree, we all should have married Greek people fifteen years ago. I could really do with a thirteenth month of the year pay cheque.

Drumpot

Yeh, the old "begruders" argument.

Its funny , I would of thought that Balancing our financial deficit should be based on what we could afford/fund, not based on who thinks something is fair or not . .

Have to laugh when these arguments turn into - "ah sure your just a begrudger" . .

Yes, I begrudge the fact that people expect me, the taxpayer to subsidise nearly one third drop in state revenue, to maintain a certain living standard thats expected by a small section of society . .

Oops, I shouldnt forget that they are "entitled" to it so all "trivial" discussions of economic crisis is irrelevant!

20Cent

Drumpot wrote: »

Forgive me for being a cynic in thinking you were just trying to take the debate into a cul de sac that stops any meaningful debate. .

Your quote was :



The average Joe must be for it . . Hmmmm . .

But Permebear confirmed that the average Joe voted for an FG government that promised to go further then the Croke park agreement, that did in fact not support it! . .

I think its safe to say that on the balance of what we are trying to gauge in terms of public opinion, there is more evidence to suggest that more people are against, then with the croke park agreement . .

Fine Gael Manifesto:
http://www.finegael.ie/upload/docs/Manifesto.pdf
Croke Park Agreement: Pending a built-in review of its implementation, Fine Gael remains committed to honouring the pay elements of the Croke Park Agreement. Fine Gael has always indicated its commitment to go beyond the Croke Park Agreement in terms of the reform agenda needed to get Ireland working again. The planned reduction in public sector numbers will be achieved through voluntary mechanisms.

What evidence is this your talking about?

Name some politicians or commentators coming out against it. Eoghan Harris and Mark Coleman, actually just the Sindo "journalists" is all I can think of.

mattjack

irishh_bob wrote: »

what does your father want taking a job which a younger person could so do with , hasnt he enough on those hefty garda pensions , my uncle is retired from the guards a few years now , he volunteers for four hours each day in st vincents hospital to pass the time

bizarre statement ..would ya have a preference for an immigrant worker or Irish worker...I,m 42 would you employ me or a 22 year old...I,ve a CIF pension I cant activate yet..does that preclude me from seeking work..financially I,m ok , so should a poorer person get preference over me..

Degsy

Permabear wrote: »

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Says the Eternal Student..what are you doing in college? Who's paying for it? You do know that subsidised third level education is bleeding the country white?

People who are milking the PS for all its worth,NOT working themselves and are contributing nothing to the economy have all the answers.

thebman

20Cent wrote: »

Fine Gael Manifesto:
http://www.finegael.ie/upload/docs/Manifesto.pdf
Croke Park Agreement: Pending a built-in review of its implementation, Fine Gael remains committed to honouring the pay elements of the Croke Park Agreement. Fine Gael has always indicated its commitment to go beyond the Croke Park Agreement in terms of the reform agenda needed to get Ireland working again. The planned reduction in public sector numbers will be achieved through voluntary mechanisms.

What evidence is this your talking about?

Name some politicians or commentators coming out against it. Eoghan Harris and Mark Coleman, actually just the Sindo "journalists" is all I can think of.

Doesn't the Croke Park Agreement have a clause for exceptional circumstances?

20Cent

thebman wrote: »

Doesn't the Croke Park Agreement have a clause for exceptional circumstances?

Yep agreed to that to and some are still moaning.
Besides committing mass Hari Kari on O'Connell St what are the PS expected to do.

whydoibother?

irishh_bob wrote: »

what does your father want taking a job which a younger person could so do with , hasnt he enough on those hefty garda pensions , my uncle is retired from the guards a few years now , he volunteers for four hours each day in st vincents hospital to pass the time

This is equally as ageist as closing off the civil service to young people. It should be a fair competition for all workers who are interested in working. Even as a young person myself, I certainly don't expect an older person to move over and give me their job. I just want to be able to compete on equal terms for the job if it becomes vacant.