Is it any wonder our country is haemorrhaging money

danniemcq

FAS staff get 70 days' leave 'to ease into retirement'
By Anne-Marie Walsh Industry Correspondent


Wednesday August 03 2011

FAS staff can take 70 days' annual paid leave and holidays in each of the two years before they retire -- and are now battling to cling on to the perk.

The controversial scheme was designed to allow staff to "acclimatise" to impending retirement.

The Irish Independent has learned of the special leave allowance after management at the defunct body was forced to yield to union pressure when they tried to end the practice last month.

The failed state-training agency is being re-branded as Solas.

The impasse represents another thorn in the side of Education Minister Ruairi Quinn, whose training-sector reforms involve the transfer of hundreds of FAS staff to the new agency.

But hundreds of staff who will move to Solas are now battling to hold on to their leave/holiday entitlements.

The 1,500 staff moving to the Department of Social Protection and Vocational Education Committees are also resisting any change.

It is understood there is no scheme in existence in the rest of the public sector comparable with the generous provisions on offer at FAS.

Correspondence

Even union sources admit the scheme is "generous" while private sector employers said it would be completely alien to most workers.

Under the "pre-retirement leave" scheme, employees at FAS can apply for an extra 44 days off a year on top of their regular 26 days' annual leave.

This entitlement is valid for a period of two years before retirement -- meaning departing staff can enjoy a total of 140 days, or almost five months of paid leave.

Internal correspondence obtained by the Irish Independent reveals efforts were made last month by FAS management to scrap the scheme.

However, management were forced to reinstate it just weeks later. Unions took the issue to the Labour Relations Commission and have since sought a hearing at the Labour Court.

Emails from FAS's human resources department informed staff last month that no further applications for pre-retirement leave would be accepted.

It said this meant no further leave would be granted except to those approved before May 19 this year.

But it reversed this the following month. in a message on July 12, FAS said the previous instruction had been "rescinded" following a Labour Relations Commission meeting.

The row over the perk is already a stumbling block to redeployment under the Croke Park deal.

Under the €85bn bailout deal, the Government has committed to implementing a wide-ranging programme of reforms to make major savings -- including moving surplus staff to busy parts of the public sector.

The IMF and EU will be looking for proof of those savings when they return in September to monitor progress.

Employer agency IBEC last night said it was time for these types of archaic practices to be abolished.

"Schemes of this order don't exist in the private sector," said director Brendan McGinty.

"There may be instances where employers may provide support for pre-retirement courses, but generally speaking they are of very short duration.

"I don't even know what those 44 days are supposed to be for. These sort of practices do not help to inspire public confidence in the Croke Park deal to deliver the kind of changes that are necessary."

FAS said its board made a decision early this year to discontinue pre-retirement leave.

"This decision is currently the subject of a Labour Court Hearing and Fas is therefore not in a position to comment," said a spokeswoman.

SIPTU FAS branch organiser Brendan O'Brien said that the union was open to a "buyout" of the pre-retirement entitlements.

But he said the offer FAS had put on the table -- a one-off "buyout" of up to three extra days off over three years -- was not good enough.

"We're prepared to deal with the issue but if the board wants a buyout it must make a reasonable offer," he said.

- Anne-Marie Walsh Industry Correspondent

Irish Independent

tldr version if you work in FAS you get 140 extra paid days (70 extra a year) off in the last 2 years of work to "ease" into retirement...

The majority do F-all anyway so surely they should be used to sitting around

FatherLen

rabble rabble rabble....

Guill

Why didn't you complain during the boom?

Mint Sauce

Nod. Smile politely. Slowly back away.

danniemcq

Guill wrote: »

Why didn't you complain during the boom?

quite simply i didn't know!

heard it on the radio this morning and didn't believe it (thought i had to have misheard it!)

Fratton Fred

How is it a stumbling block to the rebranding?

Like it, lump it or **** off is the obvious solution.

Yahew

70 a year is a bit excessive.

mikemac

Good for them, I wish I had those conditions

But hundreds of staff who will move to Solas are now battling to hold on to their leave/holiday entitlements.

Is there anyone here who wouldn't try to hold onto their entitlements?

listermint

Guill wrote: »

Why didn't you complain during the boom?

Because no one knew about it ???


All these idiotic statements.... rabble rabble rabble???



Like FFS we're being taken for a bloody ride. Im glad all this stuff is being exposed its clear as day how ridiculous now some of our services are.

Everyone was being kept in the dark to this stuff when the money was around. And it was just as unacceptable back then as it is now. What planet are these people living on!

FatherLen

listermint wrote: »

Because no one knew about it ???


All these idiotic statements.... rabble rabble rabble???



Like FFS we're being taken for a bloody ride. Im glad all this stuff is being exposed its clear as day how ridiculous now some of our services are.

Everyone was being kept in the dark to this stuff when the money was around. And it was just as unacceptable back then as it is now. What planet are these people living on!

yeah rabble rabble rabble what dont you get???

Fago!

mikemac wrote: »

Good for them, I wish I had those conditions



Is there anyone here who wouldn't try to hold onto their entitlements?

Most people who complain about perks like these, are those who don't have them. Hell yeah I'd try keep the perks, 70 days off a year would be sweet. Fair play to them.

Sleepy

More importantly: why is FÁS being re-branded?

Given the levels of corruption and incompetence within the organisation were utterly endemic, surely it'd make far more sense to have scrapped it, made all staff redundant and started again with a white sheet of paper?

listermint

mikemac wrote: »

Good for them, I wish I had those conditions



Is there anyone here who wouldn't try to hold onto their entitlements?

These people are making Zero improvements in the departments. The rebranding is a bloody farce. The whole thing should be shut down, let alone 'holding onto their holiday entitlements'.

They should be more concerned with making the improvements that were asked of them. What people cant see and its plain as day this sh&%e is unsustainable and its all going to come crashing right down..... We'll see where their poxy holiday entitlements are then wont we.

listermint

FatherLen wrote: »

yeah rabble rabble rabble what dont you get???

Well I get the fact that your statement is idiotic. is that fair ?

listermint

Fago! wrote: »

Most people who complain about perks like these, are those who don't have them. Hell yeah I'd try keep the perks, 70 days off a year would be sweet. Fair play to them.

NO mate, most people who complain about perks like these are the Stupid idiots paying for them. Why is my money being poured into this black hole? that is FAS or rebranded lightbulb manufacturer....... It should be going to front line services not this sh**e. When was the last time you were in an A&E ??


Your just making the usual 'cool' comments as this is after hours...

FatherLen

listermint wrote: »

Well I get the fact that your statement is idiotic. is that fair ?

it is actually a joke taken from south park that when a large amount of people talk about the same thing at once, that they sound like "rabble rabble rabble". i was just joining in on you folks talking about the recession. I though it made as much sense as most of the posts about the recession, so i stand by it. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.

listermint

FatherLen wrote: »

it is actually a joke taken from south park that when a large amount of people talk about the same thing at once, that they sound like "rabble rabble rabble". i was just joining in on you folks talking about the recession. I though it made as much sense as most of the posts about the recession, so i stand by it. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.

Ive watched South Park since its inception.... I do have a concept of what the joke is about but it still makes your comments nonsense to the discussion.


Why do you think this practice as directed to in the first post is acceptable? or do you ? discuss......


Cool answer ?? rabble rabble rabble... arrrghh im sooo coooll yaaarrrrrrr

danniemcq

Fago! wrote: »

Most people who complain about perks like these, are those who don't have them. Hell yeah I'd try keep the perks, 70 days off a year would be sweet. Fair play to them.

so far this year at work i've lost paid sick leave for the first 3 days we had off, yeah we complained but you know what we accepted it because we were the exception and hell if its whats needed to keep costs down and keep me in a job then fine.

we've also been hit with extra tax and crap meaning less take home pay AND had a pay freeze for 2 years.

we accepted it (with complaints yes) but again if it means i stay in work then so be it.

bijapos

First of all, its 44 days, the other 26 are statutory holidays, so 88 in total. Even 1 day would be a disgrace.

Internal correspondence obtained by the Irish Independent reveals efforts were made last month by FAS management to scrap the scheme.

However, management were forced to reinstate it just weeks later. Unions took the issue to the Labour Relations Commission and have since sought a hearing at the Labour Court............................................SIPTU FAS branch organiser Brendan O'Brien said that the union was open to a "buyout" of the pre-retirement entitlements.

An this is why from being an active member of a trade union in Germany that I have come to despise the unions here. The unions were one of the few groups that could have organised mass protests against government corruption and incompetence over the past few years but they decide to do **** all about that but at the same time believe that a sytem like the above is worth retaining. Wasters the lot of them.

Fago! wrote: »

Most people who complain about perks like these, are those who don't have them. Hell yeah I'd try keep the perks, 70 days off a year would be sweet. Fair play to them.

Yeah sure, fair play to any cnut in this country who makes things more difficult for the taxpayer :rolleyes:. If you think your taxes are well spent on giving soemone 44 extra days off for sitting on their arse then you've no right ever complaining about how the government spends our taxes or indeed how our taxes are raised.

Plazaman

I blame Anglo Irish Bank and Fianna Fail who drove this country into the ground and greedy developers who allowed the 70 day FAS leave to continue whilst Bertie looked on. And I blame that politician with the beard, Ming..... no the other one....Joan Burton, she has a lot to answer for.

FatherLen

listermint wrote: »

Ive watched South Park since its inception.... I do have a concept of what the joke is about but it still makes your comments nonsense to the discussion.


Why do you think this practice as directed to in the first post is acceptable? or do you ? discuss......


Cool answer ?? rabble rabble rabble... arrrghh im sooo coooll yaaarrrrrrr

i am so so sorry you feel this way.
i will leave you in peace to your doom and gloom.

super_furry

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Fago!

listermint wrote: »

NO mate, most people who complain about perks like these are the Stupid idiots paying for them. Why is my money being poured into this black hole? that is FAS or rebranded lightbulb manufacturer....... It should be going to front line services not this sh**e. When was the last time you were in an A&E ??


Your just making the usual 'cool' comments as this is after hours...

No I'm not. Don't put words in my mouth boy.

People are more jealous than they are outraged by things like this. I am anyway. Not saying they're not outraged, but if the tables were turned they'd sing a different tune. Can you honestly say you wouldn't try hang onto those perks if you were them, or blame them for trying to hold onto their annual days off?

Fair enough fas is useless, but if I was a fas employee, I'd do the exact same.

listermint

FatherLen wrote: »

i am so so sorry you feel this way.
i will leave you in peace to your doom and gloom.

I live a highly happy life, Im employed, i have friends, I enjoy it to the max.

this leaves me with the spare time to look in destain as my money is wasted down into a deep abyss of incompetence instead of providing the actual services that i would expect from this state.

bamboozle

Guill wrote: »

Why didn't you complain during the boom?

was this info public during the boom? NO
was this perk justifiable during the boom? NO

another legacy of Bertie's shambles

listermint

Fago! wrote: »

No I'm not. Don't put words in my mouth boy.

People are more jealous than they are outraged by things like this. I am anyway. Not saying they're not outraged, but if the tables were turned they'd sing a different tune. Can you honestly say you wouldn't try hang onto those perks if you were them, or blame them for trying to hold onto their annual days off?

Fair enough fas is useless, but if I was a fas employee, I'd do the exact same.

Where are you getting that crap from?? Im not jealous in the slightest. Im bloody well angry that my money is not being spent correctly. You still didnt answer my A&E question?

Why the hell in are we paying some tool administrator money to bed into his fat pension when there are over crowded A&E departments 25 beds deep every night? Why? When was the last time you were in Tallaght Hospital? Never ?


And dont call me boy! are you being racist or are you pretending to be from cork?

can someone put up the link

listermint

bluewolf wrote: »

can someone put up the link

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fas-staff-get-70-days-leave-to-ease-into-retirement-2837818.html

Fago!

listermint wrote: »

Where are you getting that crap from?? Im not jealous in the slightest. Im bloody well angry that my money is not being spent correctly. You still didnt answer my A&E question?

Why the hell in are we paying some tool administrator money to bed into his fat pension when there are over crowded A&E departments 25 beds deep every night? Why? When was the last time you were in Tallaght Hospital? Never ?


And dont call me boy! are you being racist or are you pretending to be from cork?

Why would anyone pretend to be from cork :pac:

sorry, I was in a&e bout 3 or 4 weeks ago for a knee injury.

Fair enough there are far better things to spend the money on .e.g. hospitals and nurses etc. i'm not in anyway disagreeing with ya there dude, but my point is that these fas ****ers couldn't care who pays for these things. and if i was them, i wouldn't either.

Sofiztikated

listermint wrote: »

Where are you getting that crap from?? Im not jealous in the slightest. Im bloody well angry that my money is not being spent correctly. You still didnt answer my A&E question?

Why the hell in are we paying some tool administrator money to bed into his fat pension when there are over crowded A&E departments 25 beds deep every night? Why? When was the last time you were in Tallaght Hospital? Never ?


And dont call me boy! are you being racist or are you pretending to be from cork?

Completely off topic, but how is calling someone boy racist? Did I miss a memo, or something?

listermint

Fago! wrote: »

Why would anyone pretend to be from cork :pac:

sorry, I was in a&e bout 3 or 4 weeks ago for a knee injury.

Fair enough there are far better things to spend the money on .e.g. hospitals and nurses etc. i'm not in anyway disagreeing with ya there dude, but my point is that these fas ****ers couldn't care who pays for these things. and if i was them, i wouldn't either.

And thats my point, They couldnt care less. The fact that they are allowed to have that attitude in the first place is a problem.

If i waltzed around my job with that attitude id be gone before you could say 'Listermint i need to see you in my office'


This agency needs to be closed - permanently.

Fago!

listermint wrote: »

And thats my point, They couldnt care less. The fact that they are allowed to have that attitude in the first place is a problem.

If i waltzed around my job with that attitude id be gone before you could say 'Listermint i need to see you in my office'


This agency needs to be closed - permanently.

Sad but true my friend, but that's the world we live in unfortunately. They do it because they can, and they won't get those kinda benefits anywhere else, so they're trying to cling onto them for dear life.

Question - has anyone: 1) a good word to say about fas?.... 2) been helped by them?

Fago!

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Completely off topic, but how is calling someone boy racist? Did I miss a memo, or something?

Something to do with black people being slaves many moons ago, I guess.

mikemac

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Completely off topic, but how is calling someone boy racist?

It isn't at all

Fago!

mikemac wrote: »

It isn't at all

Crackers used to call black slaves "boy"

up for anything

Fago! wrote: »

Most people who complain about perks like these, are those who don't have them. Hell yeah I'd try keep the perks, 70 days off a year would be sweet. Fair play to them.

I'm glad you feel that way especially if you are working because you're paying for them.

Standard Toaster

I'll tell you what helps "acclimatise" one to retirement: redundancy.

Tip o' the iceberg tbh. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Fago!

up for anything wrote: »

I'm glad you feel that way especially if you are working because you're paying for them.

I do feel like that. I am paying for it, I'm not happy about it, but there's nothing I, or anyone, can do about it bar complain. Same way I can't do anything about paying the licence fee to pay Ryan Tubridy's small fortune of a wage, but I can still say fair play to them, because if I was earning that much with those benefits, I certainly wouldn't care where they came from.

danniemcq

Fago! wrote: »

I do feel like that. I am paying for it, I'm not happy about it, but there's nothing I, or anyone, can do about it bar complain. Same way I can't do anything about paying the licence fee to pay Ryan Tubridy's small fortune of a wage, but I can still say fair play to them, because if I was earning that much with those benefits, I certainly wouldn't care where they came from.

Don't pay your TV licence, that makes me feel better.

Much in the same way i won't be paying the property tax or water charges

Fago!

danniemcq wrote: »

Don't pay your TV licence, that makes me feel better

Tried it. Ended up in court and feeling guilty. Bastards have a cuddly face you just can't say no to. :pac:

p.s. you'll have the telly licence guy banging your door down for mentioning that here ha. Cunning gits them. Adorable, but cunning - like hamsters.

quaalude

Guill wrote: »

Why didn't you complain during the boom?

How do you know they didn't?

danniemcq

Fago! wrote: »

Tried it. Ended up in court and feeling guilty. Bastards have a cuddly face you just can't say no to. :pac:

p.s. you'll have the telly licence guy banging your door down for mentioning that here ha. Cunning gits them. Adorable, but cunning - like hamsters.

They can come to the door as often as they like, i just won't answer the door, they can't do anything about it then, Plus the fact i don't actually have a tv helps (go computer with TV card)!

bnt

The reason the FAS leave allowance is in the news is because management there realised it was nonsense, and tried to stop it, but were prevented from doing so by the unions.

There was a report in one of the papers yesterday that people taking voluntary redundancy from RTE would get ten years' salary, and I was expecting this thread to be about that. It was bad information, though: redundancy payments will be capped at €60,000. :rolleyes:

Biggins

Sleepy wrote: »

More importantly: why is FÁS being re-branded?

Given the levels of corruption and incompetence within the organisation were utterly endemic, surely it'd make far more sense to have scrapped it, made all staff redundant and started again with a white sheet of paper?

Aaa... here - your thinking sense, we can't be having that!

Sure we need the re-branded org and a PR exercise so that jobs for the boys we want to still keep happy, can keep some sort of well paid job and see out their time to get their full massive pensions.

...I'm only joking. Of course its not like I just said above.
Our masters are always doing the right thing by us.
I have to go now and pray for our lord and saviour Enda...

Baaa... baaa.... baaa...

speedboatchase

The solution to do is really, really simple and it's been the nearly catch-all antidode to every PS debacle I've seen for the past few years:

Just make it illegal for the public sector to go on strike.

Do it. Ronald Reagan had the balls to do it to the air traffic controllers in the 1980s and we need the balls to implement it right now. Don't like the abolition of your perks, or the fact that jobs need to be shed? There are 450,000 that are ready to step up and you won't be able to potentially the country to ransom with widespread strikes.

bamboozle

Fago! wrote: »

Sad but true my friend, but that's the world we live in unfortunately. They do it because they can, and they won't get those kinda benefits anywhere else, so they're trying to cling onto them for dear life.

Question - has anyone: 1) a good word to say about fas?.... 2) been helped by them?

sure hasnt FAS sent over of brightest and best to Florida to train as astronauts....

Ray Palmer

People certainly like to be outraged.

They are angry with Fas management because they didn't keep proper tabs on the money in the company. They tried to stop this perk but they still are useless.:p

People are angry at the people who work there because they managed to keep a perk. One that they have a had a long time and only avail of when they have worked there 20 odd years.:rolleyes:

How much money does it actually cost?

If I had it I'd want to keep it and if it doesn't effect productivity I could care less. Rather have healthy people retired than have to pay for people who have ill health.

7sr2z3fely84g5

speedboatchase wrote: »

The solution to do is really, really simple and it's been the nearly catch-all antidode to every PS debacle I've seen for the past few years:

Just make it illegal for the public sector to go on strike.

Do it. Ronald Reagan had the balls to do it to the air traffic controllers in the 1980s and we need the balls to implement it right now. Don't like the abolition of your perks, or the fact that jobs need to be shed? There are 450,000 that are ready to step up and you won't be able to potentially the country to ransom with widespread strikes.

Correct,but this shower in goverment and last shower are mostly made up from former civil servants such as teachers etc,so they probably where delighted when croke park agreement was invented.

its nice to see some people in the sector still live in cloudcuckooland and expect the sector to work in the bertie ahern era.

speedboatchase

Ray Palmer wrote: »

People certainly like to be outraged.

They are angry with Fas management because they didn't keep proper tabs on the money in the company. They tried to stop this perk but they still are useless.:p

People are angry at the people who work there because they managed to keep a perk. One that they have a had a long time and only avail of when they have worked there 20 odd years.:rolleyes:

How much money does it actually cost?

If I had it I'd want to keep it and if it doesn't effect productivity I could care less. Rather have healthy people retired than have to pay for people who have ill health.

But you don't have this perk. And yet you're paying for it, for people to 'acclimatise' for 70 paid days out of work - are you alright with that?

Ray Palmer

speedboatchase wrote: »

But you don't have this perk. And yet you're paying for it, for people to 'acclimatise' for 70 paid days out of work - are you alright with that?

Yes I am OK with it. I think it probably doesn't cost that much money. How much money are you feeling outraged by?

So how much would be enough to anger you? Out of all the staff in fas how many are at this point? How long do you have to work there before you can get it? If it was one of your parents would you want them to give it up?

How much work is a 63-64 year old really doing that they can't fit into a 4 day week?

As I said people just find something to be outraged at. I don't think this is valid one.

tayto lover

Anything The Herald prints should be taken with a pinch of salt as it is our version of The Sun. I don't know a lot about Fas but surely there are some very efficient members of staff there too who will lose out in the reshuffle and don't deserve to do so. Like the Public Sector much of the waste seems to be at the top but the ordinary decent worker at the bottom will again lose out.
There is again a lot of hysterics on this thread.