Photographers Assistant

RoryW

Hi Everyone

Every so often I see a post from someone asking how they can get a job as a photographers assistant to gain experience etc.

So having seen an post on facebook from Peter Byrne Photographer I thought some people may be interested

See http://www.facebook.com/pages/Peter-Byrne-Photography/167779373280828 and the post on the page saying

"there is now an opportunity for a Photographer's Assistant in Dublin. Please Email me for details."

(Mods, if post inappropriate or in wrong place please amend as required)

Thanks

If someone emails him, can they let us know what he wants in an assistant?

Judging from his photos on that facebook page, he's a landscape and event photographer. Neither of which would really require an assistant in any meaningful capacity that I can think of, so I'm curious (though I wouldn't email him myself, as I wouldn't do it (or be able to) so no point in wasting his time).

kfish2oo2

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone emails him, can they let us know what he wants in an assistant?

Judging from his photos on that facebook page, he's a landscape and event photographer. Neither of which would really require an assistant in any meaningful capacity that I can think of, so I'm curious (though I wouldn't email him myself, as I wouldn't do it (or be able to) so no point in wasting his time).

I'm no pro, but for events I can see plenty of need for an assistant - carrying gear, holding off-camera flashes, redirecting sunlight with reflectors, taking less important shots of crowds while the pro concentrates on the main event...

PCPhoto

at a guess he has an "assistant" with him last weekend - I was at the same event, I knew some participants so was taking photos for them and would be fairly confident that I spotted this guy + "assistant".

I just hope any potential assistants know they should be paid for whatever they do - and not paid in experience.

PCPhoto

kfish2oo2 wrote: »

I'm no pro, but for events I can see plenty of need for an assistant - carrying gear, holding off-camera flashes, redirecting sunlight with reflectors, taking less important shots of crowds while the pro concentrates on the main event...

ok - at events like this ... you need a 70-200mm and a wideangle ...and maybe a flash.

unfortunately in the real world when photographing a sports event ....off camera flash, reflectors and assistants are not essential and most of the time unpractical, at sports events the photographer needs to be invisible so the athlete can concentrate on the event and not get distracted by some idiot jumping in front of them and blasting bursts of flash in their faces.

kfish2oo2

kfish2oo2 wrote: »

I'm no pro, but for events I can see plenty of need for an assistant - carrying gear, holding off-camera flashes, redirecting sunlight with reflectors, taking less important shots of crowds while the pro concentrates on the main event...

As PCPhoto says, at events, there's no need for any of that kinda stuff, and taking crowd shots takes about 2 seconds during a break or between things happening at the event.


PCPhoto, I don't think people should expect payment if they volunteer themselves to be assistants. Personally, I'd happily volunteer to assist a wedding or studio photographer, as I'd like to learn a little more about those aspects of photography.

I just don't understand the role of an event photographer's assistant though. If you think you seen this guy and his assistant, can you post up what his assistant was doing (vaguely, of course, as you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings).

Fajitas!

Deleted User wrote: »

PCPhoto, I don't think people should expect payment if they volunteer themselves to be assistants.

Eh, assisting is a paid job. Has been for years. There's several full time, freelance assistants out there, and plenty more in the UK.

PCPhoto

Deleted User wrote: »

As PCPhoto says, at events, there's no need for any of that kinda stuff, and taking crowd shots takes about 2 seconds during a break or between things happening at the event.


PCPhoto, I don't think people should expect payment if they volunteer themselves to be assistants. Personally, I'd happily volunteer to assist a wedding or studio photographer, as I'd like to learn a little more about those aspects of photography.

I just don't understand the role of an event photographer's assistant though. If you think you seen this guy and his assistant, can you post up what his assistant was doing (vaguely, of course, as you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings).

On this occasion the "assistant" was acting as a second shooter - I don't know what happened to the images afterwards, if the photographer added them to his collection or if the "assistant" took them.

from what I saw the "assistant" may have borrowed a lens or had the use of other equipment from the "photographer".

As regards the role of an "assistant" in general in weddings/studio they should still get paid something for their time/help, yes you will find some people willing to work for free experience and many of these people get taken advantage of.

As regards gaining experience - reading books/online tutorials can provide the information on how to do it.
- for studio experience I would suggest getting a friend and hiring a studio to get extra practice, it may take a bit of money but you will gain invaluable experience without the risk of getting sued for not doing the job properly.
- for wedding photography experience I would suggest being nosey - goto your local church if you see a wedding happening, observe the photographer, maybe even ask if they minded you watching him/her work - explain that you are interested in how a wedding photographer operates and fingers crossed you learn something about the mannerisms and techniques used by wedding photographers.

OldGoat

Fajitas! wrote: »

Eh, assisting is a paid job. Has been for years. There's several full time, freelance assistants out there, and plenty more in the UK.

It CAN be a paid job but that dosen't mean it has to be. Some (if not most) hobbiests would love the opportunity to work with a professional gratis. If you need a runner for a shoot PM me.

PCPhoto wrote: »

As regards gaining experience - reading books/online tutorials can provide the information on how to do it.
- for studio experience I would suggest getting a friend and hiring a studio to get extra practice, it may take a bit of money but you will gain invaluable experience without the risk of getting sued for not doing the job properly.
- for wedding photography experience I would suggest being nosey - goto your local church if you see a wedding happening, observe the photographer, maybe even ask if they minded you watching him/her work - explain that you are interested in how a wedding photographer operates and fingers crossed you learn something about the mannerisms and techniques used by wedding photographers.

Again from the point of view of a hobbiest and novice trying to improve I have to shinnanigans on most of the above.

Reading and online tutorials are in no way any substitute for actual hands on experience.

Hireing a studio with your mate for experience won't equate to working in a professional studio with a professional photographer (unless your mate is of a professional standard).

"Getting sued for not doing a job properly"? Not sure what you mean here PCPhoto. If I were working as an assistant to a professional on a paid job then the onus is on him to produce the work, not me.

Shadowing a professional photographer at a wedding might be useful - but even more useful would be if you were actually assisting him rather then just observing from a distance donyathink?

kfish2oo2

I really don't see how internet articles can be any kind of substitute for real life experience. Also, as someone else mentioned, a lot of the articles you see nowadays don't go into particular detail about why you do certain things - they simply state that "this way is the best way" without further explanation.

At the point I'm at, if I found a photographer who was willing to have me as an assistant and show me a few pointers - I would happily do it for free, because I would feel that I'm getting more out of it than he is. If I got to the point where I felt I was adding value to his work, then I would of course want to be paid - but of course, if I was at that stage I might feel like I could make it as a pro myself.

Its the same as work placement in college - most of the time students do not get paid, and for good reason: their understanding of the tools and techniques is not at a level thats considered productive or cost effective (especially in the media industry), but they have to start somewhere.

oshead

All the talk about being a photographers assistant is nice. But what's in it for the pro who lets someone tag along?

kfish2oo2

Someone to fetch him coffee and lunch?

PCPhoto

OldGoat wrote: »

Hireing a studio with your mate for experience won't equate to working in a professional studio with a professional photographer (unless your mate is of a professional standard).

"Getting sued for not doing a job properly"? Not sure what you mean here PCPhoto. If I were working as an assistant to a professional on a paid job then the onus is on him to produce the work, not me.

Shadowing a professional photographer at a wedding might be useful - but even more useful would be if you were actually assisting him rather then just observing from a distance donyathink?

firstly - I think you mis-understood what I was saying, when I was saying to hire a studio and bring a friend along, this is so you can experiment with lighting and LEARN what the different effects are when you change settings/lighting positions etc - which would you would have learned from watching online tutorials.

as for the "Getting sued for not doing a job properly" - this was more of a reference to those who dont train/learn properly and try to pass themselves off as professionals - taking on jobs themselves !!

- what I was saying is basically you don't need to assist a professional to become a professional, you can teach yourself.

oshead

I have to laugh every time I see one of these threads.

From the wanna be photographers assistant POV. This is what I gather (reading between the lines of course... ) What would ye like to be doing in your role.

• Tag along and get to know the models and talent.
• Get a chance to use, touch and feel the expensive photography equipment. :eek:
• Play a little part in the decision making and artistic direction of the shoot.
• Help the photographer to set up the lights and have him explain how he does everything, (just like you see in the educational videos).
• Set up reflectors and scrims and such.....
• Claim the light meter as your weapon of choice and be one of the peeps who jumps in to the scene at opportune moments to take a reading.
• Adjust the power on a strobe.
• Hang back and observe whats going on feeling free to interrupt the pro with senseless questions of the how and why things are done that way. Just like in the educational videos.
• Get talking to the models.
• Retrieve a lens and camera from the pros bag for him, making sure it's all setup correctly.
• Makes friends with hair and makeup, handy incase you become a pro...

Get good at all that and expect to get paid. If not, then become a pro and pay yourself.

If a pro needs an assistant. Here's a non exhaustive list of things they need doing.

• Clean the studio...
• Clean all the gear and make sure every item is labeled with serial numbers and pack it away into a neat storage system.
• Log on to the computer and go through the 1500 shots taken from the last wedding, weed out the sh*t, retouch the good stuff and design the album.
• Clean the studio and make sure you dust everywhere. Studios hate dust.
• Help carry a trolly and a half full of gear and set it up on a Saturday evening to shoot an event, not finishing till after midnight. When finished, get back to the studio and back up all the images then clean and put away all the gear.
• Arrive early the next morning to select and edit the photos for facebook and the blog.
• Then edit and retouch the orders and send off to the lab.
• Reply to all the email and facebook queries for a "priclist" and try and turn them into proper clients. That's a daily chore.
• Then you can work on the images from the last photoshoot. Oh, and by the way, pop out and get a coffee.
• When you get back, Clean the studio.....

In return for that, You will get you a little bit of insight and a few tidbits of knowledge that the picked up along the way.

Neither scenario seems fair. Eh?? The reality is somewhere in between. So here's the deal with becoming an assistant. Learn photography and learn it well. Do this by watching online training and setting up your own shoots in studios and on location. Buy and rent gear and build up a portfolio. Hone your style, skill and abilitys. Then and only then will you have something to bring to the table and hopefully the pro will be able to afford to pay you well (enough).

RUSSER

Think he's lookin for a gimp to hold his tripod...

Fajitas!

OldGoat wrote: »

It CAN be a paid job but that dosen't mean it has to be. Some (if not most) hobbiests would love the opportunity to work with a professional gratis. If you need a runner for a shoot PM me.

It goes back to the old argument of working for free. And moves rather sharply on to 'devaluing the industry', moves around in a few circles, and ends up with 'No, you shouldn't work for free, or at least, if you're good, you shouldn't. And if you're not good, find work elsewhere'.

oshead wrote: »

All the talk about being a photographers assistant is nice. But what's in it for the pro who lets someone tag along?

This is all assuming it's just event work. Other work requires assistants, and assistants that know lighting. I've assisted on some big commercial jobs, jobs I won't get myself for another 10 years. There's been 2 assistants on most cases, and 20/30 lights. No photographer is going to be able to see what each light is doing, and still be able to get the photograph. Not within the time allocated for the shoot. That's only one example, there's loads of others.

PCPhoto wrote: »

- what I was saying is basically you don't need to assist a professional to become a professional, you can teach yourself.

With some types of photography, maybe. With other kinds, you'll only ever learn it by assisting. But I guess it comes down to the fact that it's incredibly easy to become a 'professional' - it's as simple as adding it just before the word 'photographer' on your website.

oshead wrote: »

Neither scenario seems fair. Eh?? The reality is somewhere in between. So here's the deal with becoming an assistant. Learn photography and learn it well. Do this by watching online training and setting up your own shoots in studios and on location. Buy and rent gear and build up a portfolio. Hone your style, skill and abilitys. Then and only then will you have something to bring to the table and hopefully the pro will be able to afford to pay you well (enough).

+1

But it really depends on who you're assisting.

Well here's my thoughts on it.

I feel that anyone who wants to be an assistant, for whatever reason, and chooses to volunteer their time, should be more than welcome to do so. I'm sure their reasons vary between each person, but I can tell you why I've been doing it.


I've been doing some photojournalistic stuff for free for a while, because when I started doing it, it was mostly indoor photographs of people (birthdays, retirements, general parties and social photographs). These were photographs that i'd never have been good at taking, and I wasn't, as my first time doing it on my own (I assisted for two or three weekends before being sent out on my own), the photographs weren't spectacular.

Skip forward to today, and I'm much more knowledgeable on judging lighting and what way I should set up my flash/camera settings for different venues. I've gotten a better idea of what apertures to use and when, I know how far I can push my ISO before I wreck someone's face, and I know what distance to stand from people in order to get a clear shot of multiple people in focus at f/5.6.

Out from those kinda photographs, I've covered some crashes, local events, cheque and award presentations, promotional advertisements for businesses, interior/'lifestyle' photographs, etc.


Now, if you're an amateur, you're probably scratching your head at the thought of doing so much for so little. If you're a pro you're probably smashing your keyboard in anger of me devaluing your work and, if you live near me, taking jobs from underneath you.



Right, so the big question is, why do I do it? There are a few reasons.

1 - Firstly, if I'm covering your cheque presentation, and I'm doing it for the local paper or whatever, then I can feel free to make a complete balls of the job altogether. It won't hurt me too much, as I can always leave my name off the image, and people will just say "jaysus, that (paper's name) have some crap photos". Whereas if I cover the event as myself, and people get images from me directly, and the photos are terrible, then I'm after hanging myself and I'll be burned at the stake.

So there is a bit of leeway and removal of responsibility for me. "The photos suck?! Don't blame me, blame the paper!"

2 - Building my confidence in approaching people and starting to "network" with people. This has been great for me as I was a very sheepish person who didn't like the public very much, so my current role sees me out and about and dealing with people a lot more. I feel more comfortable around people now, and I do think that a photographer needs to be good with people.

This has also allowed me to rope people into posing for me for portrait stuff and such, that I would otherwise have not gotten to do.


3 - I slowly, but surely, start to see and understand how the local photography scene works. I get to know the pros, I get to know the media, I get to know who wants what kind of photographs and I get to figure out if there's demand for certain images at certain times of year, etc. (are confirmation photographs popular around here? Would i be better off freelancing on my own, or should I try and get stapled to a local newspaper or such).


4 - This is the absolute most important one.

This is the reason I ever decided to do anything for free. This is what makes me get up in the morning and happily do another day for free, and this is what makes me look back on my 'assistant' period with happiness and no regret.

I have never, ever marketed myself, promoted myself, commented on myself, or even sarcastically referred to myself as a professional photographer. I have always described myself as a photography enthusiast. If anyone called me a professional in conversation, I would correct them.


I have seen more than my fair share of crappy photographs taken by people claiming to be professionals. I have seen out of focus, blurred, under-exposed images taken by so-called professionals, who picked up their camera two weeks ago and got their business cards printed the same week.


If or when I finally decide to put the word 'professional' in front of 'photographer' when referring to myself, I want to be a ridiculously experience photographer. I strongly believe that every professional should ALWAYS deliver professional quality images, and under no circumstances should they give poor results.

If you offered to pay me to take photographs at your birthday party in some venue next weekend, would I feel comfortable taking on the role of the only photographer who has to handle the complete and total responsiblity of providing you with great images from that event?

Yes, I would. Because I know that I'm damn good at that kind of photography, and it's my 'assistant' period that allowed me to be so good at it.

If you offered me your wedding for next year, I'd run a mile. Because I have not shot a wedding before, and I would never take the job on without some practical experience, where I managed to take photographs that I was very happy with.



So the short version is, I worked for free, and would continue to work for free, to make sure that I am as competent and capable a photographer as I can be. I'm 23 now. If I've gotten my desired amount of experience in the next two years, then I could happily go pro at 25. That means that for 5 years (I plan to drop photography at 30, regardless of how it turns out for me) I could be a professional photographer and be my own boss, etc. and really give it a run for it's money and see how it turns out.


If other people wish to take a more direct route, then fair play to them for having the balls, say I. But me, personally, I'd rather have that practical experience behind me. It'll stand to me down the line, in my opinion. But no, I'd never clean someone's studio without it benfitting me.

That said, if any pro here wants their studio cleaned, I'd happily do, but for every hour I spend cleaning it, you owe me two hours using it whenever I please.

PCPhoto

but but but ..... during your "assistant" period ..... who was making the money ?

was it whoever was sending you to these events ? did you get paid at all ?


In the past I had been contacted by people on Boards asking if they could tag along to work with me, so they could gain experience, I said no problem.

For me it wasn't an "assistant" just more of someone who wants experience, I've given these people the use of thousands of euro worth of equipment, arranged press passes to international events and explained what settings to use and why - if someone wants to help another person in getting started, fair enough, just don't try to sugar-coat it into sounding like its something official.

I didn't pay those people - the option was there was them to join me, or if they wanted to leave at any stage they could have.....they were not assisting me, they were learning from me but it would have been almost the same if they went out to the local park themselves and took pics of a football game.

Well it's a double-edged sword really, isn't it?

I can work for free, and get experience and insight that I wouldn't have otherwise gotten, at the expense of letting someone make money off my back, or I can sit at home and try to figure out the best way to get my foot on the ladder.

My period of free work has made me a better photographer, in my opinion, and has, as I say, helped me meet people, which in turn has helped me expand my little bits of learning into other areas (portraiture, etc.).


I'd rather work for free and get a good head on my shoulders instead of charging someone and making a jock of their photographs, if you see where I'm coming from?

PCPhoto

I'd rather work for free and get a good head on my shoulders instead of charging someone and making a jock of their photographs, if you see where I'm coming from?

my point is you don't need to "work for free" to gain experience and understanding of working as a photographer ... I understand your position and you've "served your time" and believe you have learned from the experience, but if you had not worked for free and simply gotten out there taking photos, chatting on forums, reading articles, watching videos - it may have taken longer but end result would be fairly similar.

sineadw

Fajitas! wrote: »

But it really depends on who you're assisting.

That there is the crux of it for me.

Mensch Maschine

No way, would I work for free. As PCPhoto puts it. Get out and learn yourself and from the web etc. Cleaning a studio, carrying gear and deleting wedding photos and all that is not learning about photography. That's work.

EDIT: Oh and that 'Assisting' job is not a job. The photographer wants you to pay him to assist and knowing how stupid people are, someone will pay him.

Fajitas!

Mensch Maschine wrote: »

EDIT: Oh and that 'Assisting' job is not a job. The photographer wants you to pay him to assist and knowing how stupid people are, someone will pay him.

I really don't think you know what you're talking about. The assistant gets paid, not pays to work.

Cleaning a studio, carrying gear and deleting wedding photos and all that is not learning about photography.

That's a rather dull spectrum of the work an assistant may do, but it is learning about the business of being a photographer. As is learning lighting, learning how to approach clients, organising your portfolio, directing a shoot with a team, etc, etc, etc. A lot of that you won't learn online.

The biggest problem with peoples views on this thread is they're assuming assistants are either helping a press, PR or wedding photographer. Most assisting work is in the commercial side of the industry.

Mensch Maschine

....

Fajitas!

No, I don't think I need to. I honestly don't believe a photographer would ask someone to pay to assist them.

PCPhoto

Fajitas! wrote: »

No, I don't think I need to. I honestly don't believe a photographer would ask someone to pay to assist them.

Yes there are some who would do it ...although ... usually they are not proper professional photographers.

Mensch Maschine

Fajitas! wrote: »

I really don't think you know what you're talking about. The assistant gets paid, not pays to work.

What do you mean I don't know what I'm talking about? Did you contact his person? This is a 3 month 'course' disguised an assistant job at a cost of €250

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP knew or is the guy running the show and using boards.ie as advert platform.

Fajitas!

In fairness, living both here and in the UK, I've never seen or heard of it. And I definitely would have at least heard someone giving out about it or warning about it.

Fajitas!

Mensch Maschine wrote: »

What do you mean I don't know what I'm talking about? Did you contact his person? This is a 3 month 'course' disguised an assistant job at a cost of €250

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP knew or is the guy running the show and using boards.ie as advert platform.

In that case, my apologies. I really didn't think that would happen.

I don't think Rory has any dealings with the guy.

Edit:


Yeah... so...

"There is a cost involved"

That's incredibly poor form. I've never heard of that before.

Mensch Maschine

Sorry, there's something up with my web browser... my posts are jumbled..

Anyway, please don't blame me for not knowing what I'm talking about. I'm not that guy. And, as I said earlier, I wouldn't work for free.

Yes, I did pick out a dull part of the spectrum deliberately because that's what one would be doing as a part of their assisting experience and it's not all glam editorials and interesting studio work. Hence why I wouldn't work for free. My time is valuable and if I'm contributing my time and effort that helps someone else gain money, well I'd expect some cash monies in return!

EDIT: Didn't see your other post. Sorry to sound snappy. ^

PCPhoto

Mensch Maschine wrote: »

What do you mean I don't know what I'm talking about? Did you contact his person? This is a 3 month 'course' disguised an assistant job at a cost of €250

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP knew or is the guy running the show and using boards.ie as advert platform.

if I had known that last week I would have told the girl that was "assisting" and made sure she got a receipt and possibly offered to help her get some proper work.

sNarah

[QUOTE=Fajitas!;73677353 "There is a cost involved"

That's incredibly poor form. I've never heard of that before.[/QUOTE]

Oh my. PAYING to be an assistant? Poor, poor form altogether. I wonder how much it is (is it the 250 as mentioned here?) and where does that money go to!?

Mensch Maschine

sNarah wrote: »

Oh my. PAYING to be an assistant? Poor, poor form altogether. I wonder how much it is (is it the 250 as mentioned here?) and where does that money go to!?

Apparently, it's a 3month internship. It costs €250. So I suppose it mind be beneficial to someone who had loads of spare time and €250 to piss away.

It's totally messed up though. Is he 'your boss?' Can he call you in on the weekend if a shoot pops up? Will it look bad on you to say 'no' I don't think it's good business.

I mean the money spent, travelling to work, lunches etc, to work for someone who you paid to be there with is nasty.

swingking

absolute joke that this guy is asking people to pay to assist him..

Plus his images aren't all that great

http://www.peterabyrne.com/photo_7784575.html#photos_id=7784580

seriously !! ?

PCPhoto

found the "assistant" on facebook.

sNarah

Go on...?

mehfesto

swingking wrote: »

absolute joke that this guy is asking people to pay to assist him..

Plus his images aren't all that great

http://www.peterabyrne.com/photo_7784575.html#photos_id=7784580

seriously !! ?

That'll cost you e250 as well.

Paying to assist is just terrible, terrible form. Why anyone would think they could benefit from this is beyond me.

There are enough pro photographers out there willing to help beginners out there to avoid these charlatans. I met a really nice photographer at a gig - loaned him a card (as his had all been destroyed in the car by an open bottle of lucozade) and in return he offered me a few weeks work with him - PAID, for my gesture. He worked for several papers, was making ends meet and realistically didn't need a pleb like me to tag along.

I didn't take him up due to time constraints, but really being charged to carry equipment and watch a bloke go about his business when you could spend 250 notes on some fantastic books, tutorials or equipment is just mental.

Incidentally I emailed this guy when this thread first popped up. The position 'has been filled'

eas

I say to each their own. If Peter Byrne can make a bit of cash teaching someone the ropes then why not? Single day workshops come up year round that cost more than €250.

Once again, a bunch of photographers begrudging another photographer on boards.ie.

RoryW

Mensch Maschine wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP knew or is the guy running the show and using boards.ie as advert platform.

I have no dealings with his guy

Not impressed with the concept of paying for a job - very Dickensian

Would not have posted if I had known the lack of transparency in his advert.

RoryW

Fajitas! wrote: »

I don't think Rory has any dealings
.

Correct

PCPhoto

eas wrote: »

I say to each their own. If Peter Byrne can make a bit of cash teaching someone the ropes then why not? Single day workshops come up year round that cost more than €250.

Once again, a bunch of photographers begrudging another photographer on boards.ie.

In principle I have to disagree - its not right to take advantage of someone just because they are starting off or looking to learn, yes some people do get taken for a mug and end out paying over the odds for structured "training".

Can you say he was "teaching the ropes" ...from what I saw ...yes ...saw !! (past tense of seen, meaning to view with ones own eyes) the guy was not giving any mentoring - the "assistant" was just shooting away, getting pics as any other photographer (hobbiest or pro) would.

The assistant was allowed access to a 70-200mm lens - I dont know if it was owned by the photographer or if the photographer was just storing it (I'm guessing it was his because they both had their own camera bags and she took it from his.)

what's the old saying again .... "Those that cant do....teach !"

EDIT: from a whois check the domain name was registered in May 2011.

I just hope people out there learn that not everyone with a DSLR is a professional photographer - learning photography can be done by using a forum like this, watching tutorials and reading articles ....and messing about with your camera.

eas

This seems to be splitting in to 2 issues

1) is it ok to charge for assisiting/mentorship
2) is it ok for this person in particular to charge for assisiting/mentorship

On topic one, from the pro photogrpahers position why should they share tricks and techniques to a newbie over a period of a few weddings that took them years to learn/perfect? FWIW, I've known this to happen in wedding photography but only by top people who also run workshops/training on an international level and have been shootting weddings for eons.

For the record I'm not advocating people working for free. My support in this case is assuming people are paying for triaining not for being a lug.

No direct comment on topic 2, but PCPhoto if you've witnessed what you say first hand and it's all fact than there's something not quite right with the situation.

PCPhoto

there's not much difference between your two points:

doesn't make a difference if its this person or not - people should not pay to assist or shadow a photographer (or be a second shooter)

if someone wants to learn about photography - there are plenty of courses out there, theres plenty of information online to learn from and there are plenty of people on Boards willing to offer assistance. (no pun intended)

As a pro photographer there are plenty of hints/tips/tricks I have learned over the years I have no problem passing this information on.

As regards this guy, its my opinion that he's taking advantage of someone who doesn't know better, its possible that they might see it as value for money - we dont know - KKV was saying earlier in the thread (or another thread) about "serving his time" doing jobs for free helped him gain experience, its a similar situation - either way someone starting off gets taken advantage of because they dont know any better.

its possible that the person I saw "assisting" didn't know a whole lot about how things work in the freelance photography world and the person offering the service to show her wanted remuneration for his/her time - he may not have gone to the events unless he had an "assistant" to bring - we dont know !

I just dont think people starting out should be taken advantage of - it will happen to us all at some point in our lives - doesn't mean its right....or wrong.

Mensch Maschine

RoryW wrote: »

I have no dealings with his guy

Not impressed with the concept of paying for a job - very Dickensian

Would not have posted if I had known the lack of transparency in his advert.

My apologies. I didn't mean to drag your name in to it deliberately.

I really have to agree with PCPhoto's points. If this guy is going to 'teach' me the ropes. How do I know he's a good teacher? What credentials does he have as a person whom one can learn from.

I hope we don't see this becoming a trend. I think people should be aware and stand up against this kind of malarkey.

PCPhoto

in one way I agree with "eas" because the guy has balls/the cheek to charge someone to shadow him and make money in a recession, effectively creating employment for himself.

on the other side its immoral to take advantage of someone who probably does not know any better and thinks they are getting "experience" and learning (its possible that they are learning but in my opinion there are more formal and correct ways to learn about photography)

I definitely don't think that someone should pay to shadow a photographer - an internship/apprenticeship is a learning process, a photographer cannot teach everything in a small space of time.... then again how do you know the photographer knows everything - freelance photojournalism is an art...a dying art, with little or no money to be made at the present time....as a freelance photojournalist I believe I am qualified to say this, it takes time to become a proper photojournalist and its something I'm still working on - after over 10years at the job (Jaysus, I've been at this nearly 15years) , I've had times where I earn less than €200 - per month (after expenses) and times when I've earned over €10K in a single month (before expenses).

I would love to charge someone to follow me to jobs and just to chat with while I'm on jobs, even today - I've been hanging around a hotel because I've been told there was a party on and possibility of some people to be photographed - I've been here for 6 hours and not taken 1 photograph, earlier today I was taking photos of fans at Croke park - I've been working since 10am, its now almost 9pm and I don't think I've earned anything !!

Yesterday - I was hired to goto a house in Meath and photograph the couple inside for one of the newspapers.

Friday - I spent 8 hours in the Four Courts waiting for a case to happen, it settled, I got pics of the people involved, sent them out to the papers .... nothing printed...the story appeared in the Times (no pics) .... so I earned nothing.

and so on and so on .... like I said its a dying art !!

At the moment I only work for the papers, the odd PR company and whatever freelance stuff I think I can make money from - I used to cover concerts/ international sports events but there's very little money to be made nowadays so I rarely do them, I have applied for media access to the Solheim cup - just to have on my own files mainly - cant see myself making money from it.


* = just to add I'm not a paparazzi - they chase after famous people(and this country only really has 3 or 4 proper paps - the rest are just press photographers at organised photocalls), the hotel mentioned above has some business people and would have made a story if I had gotten pics of them - nothing terribly exciting

Well if ya ever need an assistant, PC...

PCPhoto

you are more than welcome to tag along - actually I'll be up your area end of Sept (need to find out what date)... if you wanna join me for a morning/day !

Ah, it'd depend heavily on what you're doing, but if you fancy a bit of company and I'm available, I'd be happy to pop along to you if you're around the area. Haven't met many boards members (though those I have met has been quite nice). Be interesting to meet our most selfless photographer. :P

oshead

A Blog... Confessions of a Mad Photo Assistant. Worth a look.

PCPhoto

excellent read - really shows that a massive knowledge and understanding of controlling the lighting is what is needed for huge commercial portraits.

oshead

Yeah, it's a great read. I particularly like the head shots of Peter Hurley. He uses four Kinoflos and it produces stunning lighting, similar to but nicer IMO, than the Paul C. Buff Moon Units. Drooollll.....