Should Norris resign as a Senator?

Slideshowbob

Is it acceptable that Norris remains a Senator given recent revelations about him?

I have my doubts on his judgement - not sure why my tax money should pay for his salary to make decisions on my behalf now

dlofnep

I don't think he should. I weigh up the good work he has done, with one error of judgement and give him the benefit of the doubt. He should remain as Senator.

rodento

Thats not what I would call one error of judgement

Side Show Bob

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think he should. I weigh up the good work he has done, with one error of judgement and give him the benefit of the doubt. He should remain as Senator.

I think even Norris made it unequivocally clear today that it was much more than an error in judgement, yes he should resign as a Senator, but he will still have an extraordinary pension, I do think his resignation may have been attempt to make the controversy go away to protect his position as a Senator.

anymore

It is up to him whether he stays on as Senator or not. To be credible however, I suggest he has to be available to answer whatever questions journalists/commentators may have. He can hardly call others to account if he does not at least deal with any outstanding questions.

sollar

If he is forced out of the senate then he should run for the Dail. If that rogue Lowry can get in then i'm sure a decent man like Norris would be welcome.

anymore

sollar wrote: »

If he is forced out of the senate then he should run for the Dail. If that rogue Lowry can get in then i'm sure a decent man like Norris would be welcome.

That is a good idea - it is a wonder he has never stood in a real election before - by real I mean whereby he doesnt have to canvass only his fellow academics in Trinity. Or perhaps if he wants to appeal to a wider audience, there are always euro elections.

Duddy

Oh please, look at Brian Lenihan Snr. - he went on to win the highest amount of first preference votes in the Presidential elections even after the tape scandal, which was a result of self-promoting politics. Norris did what he did out of compassion for a friend and former partner, and fear that he might end his life whilst in prison.

He has stated that he finds the crime in question undoubtedly terrible, but points to the huge amount of good work his former partner has performed in the field of human rights in Israel, which was the basis of his appeal for clemency. Clemency meaning lenience or mercy, not to let him off the hook completely.

He shouldn't have written the letter on Seanad paper, that much is obvious. Norris has a long history of fighting for human rights, the recent controversy shouldn't overshadow this, nor should he be forced to give up his seat. The amount of good he has done far outweigh this error in judgement (to which we are all prone).

anymore

Duddy wrote: »

Oh please, look at Brian Lenihan Snr. - he went on to win the highest amount of first preference votes in the Presidential elections even after the tape scandal, which was a result of self-promoting politics. Norris did what he did out of compassion for a friend and former partner, and fear that he might end his life whilst in prison.

He has stated that he finds the crime in question undoubtedly terrible, but points to the huge amount of good work his former partner has performed in the field of human rights in Israel, which was the basis of his appeal for clemency. Clemency meaning lenience or mercy, not to let him off the hook completely.

He shouldn't have written the letter on Seanad paper, that much is obvious. Norris has a long history of fighting for human rights, the recent controversy shouldn't overshadow this, nor should he be forced to give up his seat. The amount of good he has done far outweigh this error in judgement (to which we are all prone).

Could we clarify one point here ? From what I understand, Norris and the defendant were still a couple and remained so for 26 years as indicated in the Joe jacjson interview. Is this correct or not ?

TeddyTedson

It looks like she may have known something
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72627467&postcount=8

jimmycrackcorm

Why is Norris now unacceptable as a president but acceptable as a senator? Probably because the Senate is totally irrelevant.

HarryPotter41

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why is Norris now unacceptable as a president but acceptable as a senator? Probably because the Senate is totally irrelevant.

Not at all, just don't want the Trinners crowd having conniption fits if he resigns. After all, he did get the highest vote in the Senate election.

anymore

If Trinity College are happy to have him represent them, then that is democracy = the very same democracy that has that man's supporters so enraged that he requires the support of either Councils or TDs. Funny isn't it ?
.

Kev_ps3

yes, in fact they all should, useless talking shop.

n32

he used senate note paper to write a letter to influence a rape case. he abused his position as a senator. he could have written the same letter on blank notepaper and it would not have been as bad. but he abused his position therefore he must step down. if he is the decent, honourable his supporters claim he is then this is his oppportunity to do the decent thing and step down. if he doesnt step down he s no better than the ivor callellys of this world who protect their position at all costs

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think he should. I weigh up the good work he has done, with one error of judgement and give him the benefit of the doubt. He should remain as Senator.

Do you regard the fact that he continued on in a relation with this man convicted of sex crime against a fifteen year old as an error ?
Do you regard the comments he made regarding pederasty in the magill interview as an error given that is what his partner was doing with that boy ?
Vincent Browne in his column today certainly finds aspects relating to these issues disturbing :

" ....But what was disquieting was the confluence of that absence of concern for the psychological welfare of that boy with his trivialising of pederasty. In a 2002 interview in Magill he was quoted as saying there was “something to be said” for “classic paedophilia ”. He was also quoted as saying: “The law in this sphere should take into account consent rather than age........”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0803/1224301767166.html

n32

anymore wrote: »

Do you regard the fact that he continued on in a relation with this man convicted of sex crime against a fifteen year old as an error ?
Do you regard the comments he made regarding pederasty in the magill interview as an error given that is what his partner was doing with that boy ?
Vincent Browne in his column today certainly finds aspects relating to these issues disturbing :

" ....But what was disquieting was the confluence of that absence of concern for the psychological welfare of that boy with his trivialising of pederasty. In a 2002 interview in Magill he was quoted as saying there was “something to be said” for “classic paedophilia ”. He was also quoted as saying: “The law in this sphere should take into account consent rather than age........”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0803/1224301767166.html

that comment alone should be enough to ensure the man never again holds an office of state in this country. that he even stayed in the race after that comment coming to light is a joke

dixiefly

I put this into a new thread as I believe that there should now be a new and seperate debate into David Norris' position as a senator.

This was debated on George Hook's programme this evening and there were very strong arguments put forward saying that he has been let off very lightly by the media, that it was a priest or a bishop that they would (rightly ) be made resign.

Just because Norris has already suffered in having to give up his presidential ambitions that had almost disappeared anyway does not mean that we should not question his fitness to hold a seat in our upper house - the same position that he so eloquently lauded in his letter to the Israeli authorities.

He needs to not only quit as a candidate for the presidency but also withdraw at least temporarily from public life.

Propellerhead

Norris is out of the Presidential campaign. Isn't that enough without him being hounded further?

sollar

No, I think he still should have ran for the president. He only sent a letter looking for clemency for a friend. Its hardly uncommon. I'm sure most politicians have sent a letter they prob regret.

Liam Byrne

Propellerhead wrote: »

Norris is out of the Presidential campaign. Isn't that enough without him being hounded further?

How is it "being hounded" ?

He abused his position by sending the letter and also wrote in support of a convicted criminal.

If someone I knew committed a serious crime I would stop all association with them.

He is not suitable to be a public representative.

The only thing he has going for him is the fact that not a lot of our public representatives are suitable, given what they condone and how they act.

So we deserve better than Norris, but we deserve better in general.

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How is it "being hounded" ?

He abused his position by sending the letter and also wrote in support of a convicted criminal.

If someone I knew committed a serious crime I would stop all association with them.

He is not suitable to be a public representative.

The only thing he has going for him is the fact that not a lot of our public representatives are suitable, given what they condone and how they act.

So we deserve better than Norris, but we deserve better in general.

Not to be blase about it, but some mate you are!

Of course he shouldn't resign as a senator. He made a mistake, it cost him the race, (which I am of the opinion he shouldn't have - people should have had their say at the ballot box) which is more than enough.

dixiefly

Propellerhead wrote: »

Norris is out of the Presidential campaign. Isn't that enough without him being hounded further?

He was out of the campaign to all intents and purposes anyway. The dogs in the street knew he wouldnt get a nomination so he avoided further embarassment by going now.

As was stated in the George Hook programme, in his letter to the Israeli authorities he completely neglected to disclose that the man he was making these representations for was, actually his lover.

I hadnt really thought about the wider implications until I heard the programme but the arguments against him remaining in any office are very strong.

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

Not to be blase about it, but some mate you are!

What's that supposed to mean ?

Are you suggesting that a "mate" would stand by you if you raped or murdered someone ?

I can tell you for a fact that I have more ethics and self-respect than to overlook such a thing. Even if it was more than a "mate" and was a girlfriend / lover / partner / wife I would absolutely reconsider my association with them.

Why would I want to be a "mate" with someone like that ?

dixiefly

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What's that supposed to mean ?

Are you suggesting that a "mate" would stand by you if you raped or murdered someone ?

I can tell you for a fact that I have more ethics and self-respect than to overlook such a thing. Even if it was more than a "mate" and was a girlfriend / lover / partner / wife I would absolutely reconsider my association with them.

Why would I want to be a "mate" with someone like that ?

Here here Liam. I totally agree with you.

Blind loyalty is incredible.

I remember working with some constituents of bertie Aherne and, to some of them, he was a complete saint. I used to reckon that he would have to commit murder in front of them or steal from their mother for some of them to even consider not voting for him!

MadsL

FFS, the man wrote a letter out of compassion and love for someone he'd had a long term loving relationship with. There are people still sitting in public office whose greed, corruption and me fein politics have simply ruined this country, forced us back to the old days of mass emigration and shackled a huge debt on the lives of future generations. And now the developers ARE getting a bail out. That is sickening.

I know who I would rather have in public office.

Godge

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What's that supposed to mean ?

Are you suggesting that a "mate" would stand by you if you raped or murdered someone ?

I can tell you for a fact that I have more ethics and self-respect than to overlook such a thing. Even if it was more than a "mate" and was a girlfriend / lover / partner / wife I would absolutely reconsider my association with them.

Why would I want to be a "mate" with someone like that ?

It is one thing to turn up in court every day to show that person that you are there for them.

It is another thing to be going around writing letters to all and sundry asking for clemency for them.

nesf

Threads merged.

anymore

sollar wrote: »

No, I think he still should have ran for the president. He only sent a letter looking for clemency for a friend. Its hardly uncommon. I'm sure most politicians have sent a letter they prob regret.

Why do people keep on insisting it was for a ' friend' ? He was his boyfriend/ lover/ partner for 26 years. There is a difference and this maters when looking at issues raised in the Magill interview.

blahfckingblah

thats a very valid question. what makes him think that he is unfit to serve as our president yet able to represent the people in the seanad, im glad these stories came out before the election rather than after as he would have had a chance of getting my vote.

Venom

MadsL wrote: »

FFS, the man wrote a letter out of compassion and love for someone he'd had a long term loving relationship with. There are people still sitting in public office whose greed, corruption and me fein politics have simply ruined this country, forced us back to the old days of mass emigration and shackled a huge debt on the lives of future generations. And now the developers ARE getting a bail out. That is sickening.

I know who I would rather have in public office.

Norris should absolutly have to resign. He totally abused his position of office by supporting a convicted criminal and worse, fails to understand the public outrage about it.

Why is it always a case these days that no matter how outrageous someone's actions are, dodgy developers, reckless bankers or other toerag politicians are also brought up in some mad excuse to lessen their behaviour ?

HarryPotter41

Deleted User wrote: »

Not to be blase about it, but some mate you are!

Of course he shouldn't resign as a senator. He made a mistake, it cost him the race, (which I am of the opinion he shouldn't have - people should have had their say at the ballot box) which is more than enough.

If one of my friends was convicted of statutory rape I would not particularly want to associate with them. I don't think its acceptable behaviour so why would I want to hang around someone who does?

anymore

Venom wrote: »

Norris should absolutly have to resign. He totally abused his position of office by supporting a convicted criminal and worse, fails to understand the public outrage about it.

Why is it always a case these days that no matter how outrageous someone's actions are, dodgy developers, reckless bankers or other toerag politicians are also brought up in some mad excuse to lessen their behaviour ?

Well siad. I never heard any squeals of protest when dodgy developers and reckless bankers were making generous donations to the arts and culture sector ? Nor did i hear any squeals of protest when politicans were keeping the annual tax exemption of € 100,000 for artists and writers. Curious isnt it ?

MadsL

Line two people up for a kicking. Norris or Ahern. Sadly I know who would get it. You people have a lynch mob mentality, time you moved on, you got what you wanted.

Well siad. I never heard any squeals of protest when dodgy developers and reckless bankers were making generous donations to the arts and culture sector ?

Wtf???

n32

MadsL wrote: »

Line two people up for a kicking. Norris or Ahern. Sadly I know who would get it. You people have a lynch mob mentality, time you moved on, you got what you wanted.

would the david norris fan club please get down off their high horse and stop with this self pitying bull****. the man made a serious error and he should face the consequences (i.e. withdraw from the race) . he also abused his position as a member of the oireachtais to try to influence a court case. trevor sargent did the same thing and did the honourable thing and stepped down. i m no fan of the green party but the man earned my respect by doing the honourable thing. if david norris is as honourable as his supporters say he is then he should lead by example and step down . and please, will the pro norris footsoldiers leave off with the self pitying, 'the world is against us nonsense'.

MadsL

If you issued the same call to everyone in the Houses of the Oireachtas who have ever used their position to influence the outcome of an official process there would be no-one left in the place.

Sargent stepped down because of the conflict of interest, I see no conflict of interest in Norris writing a character letter to a foreign court. Do you? If so please explain or would you prefer some more tar for your flaming torch?

Guy:Incognito

MadsL wrote: »

If you issued the same call to everyone in the Houses of the Oireachtas who have ever used their position to influence the outcome of an official process there would be no-one left in the place.

Sargent stepped down because of the conflict of interest, I see no conflict of interest in Norris writing a character letter to a foreign court. Do you? If so please explain or would you prefer some more tar for your flaming torch?

If he was a FF senator, everything else being equal, the calls for him to resign would be deafening.

MadsL

Way to sidestep the question...:rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

MadsL wrote: »

Way to sidestep the question...:rolleyes:

I didnt sidestep any question. TBH I just picked the last person that was defending him and quoted. It wasnt a specific answer to what you posted.

Happyman42

MadsL wrote: »

If you issued the same call to everyone in the Houses of the Oireachtas who have ever used their position to influence the outcome of an official process there would be no-one left in the place.

Sargent stepped down because of the conflict of interest, I see no conflict of interest in Norris writing a character letter to a foreign court. Do you? If so please explain or would you prefer some more tar for your flaming torch?

The conflict of interest was his 'lover'
The Irish Senate and members of it have no business seeking clemency for the crime of statutory rape on behalf of their lovers.

n32

MadsL wrote: »

If you issued the same call to everyone in the Houses of the Oireachtas who have ever used their position to influence the outcome of an official process there would be no-one left in the place.

Sargent stepped down because of the conflict of interest, I see no conflict of interest in Norris writing a character letter to a foreign court. Do you? If so please explain or would you prefer some more tar for your flaming torch?

a man claiming to represent the irish people writes a letter speaking up for a man convicted of rape? you see nothing wrong with this? the members of the oireachtais represent the like of you and me. if you re ok with your representative trying to excuse a rapist and going on national radio saying 'theres something to be said for relationships between middle aged men and young boys' then i feel sorry for you.

n32

MadsL wrote: »

If you issued the same call to everyone in the Houses of the Oireachtas who have ever used their position to influence the outcome of an official process there would be no-one left in the place.

Sargent stepped down because of the conflict of interest, I see no conflict of interest in Norris writing a character letter to a foreign court. Do you? If so please explain or would you prefer some more tar for your flaming torch?

when all else fails make your opponent out to be some kind of biggot at the head of a lynch mob! i wish i was as enlightened and intelligent as you!

K-9

I don't think so.

I call for an independent trawl through all Senators and TD's representations on prisoner sentencing and we can all decide then.

MadsL

letter speaking up for a man convicted of rape?

He wrote a character letter in support of someone he'd had a long term relationship with who pleaded guilty to Statutory Rape you might want to read up what that is before jumping to the crys of "Rapist!" like the gutter media.

you see nothing wrong with this?

What is illegal about writing this letter?

the members of the oireachtais represent the like of you and me. if you re ok with your representative trying to excuse a rapist

I think you really ought to think about that accusation, Norris never made any statement 'excusing rape', if he has - could you give me a source?

and going on national radio saying 'theres something to be said for relationships between middle aged men and young boys' then

Are you quoting? Or just trying to throw fuel on the witch-hunt BBQ?

i feel sorry for you.

Don't be, I'm perhaps a product of all those years of (un)shamefaced hypocrisy in Irish politics, perhaps it's finally worn me down and I no longer expect much for public figures. But I wonder if you are really directing your anger at the right target?

n32

K-9 wrote: »

I don't think so.

I call for an independent trawl through all Senators and TD's representations on prisoner sentencing and we can all decide then.

not all senators and td s put themselves forward as a presidential candidate.


thats enough politics for me for one night!

anymore

Lets make this easy, most men would have had the backbone to dump a partner who had cheated with a 15 year old. Why in Gods name would we want a country represented by a man who couldnt even to that ?
It is pathetic.

MadsL

Happyman42 wrote: »

The conflict of interest was his 'lover'
The Irish Senate and members of it have no business seeking clemency for the crime of statutory rape on behalf of their lovers.

Should members of the houses seek clemency for anyone?

Definition - disposition to show forbearance, compassion, or forgiveness in judging or punishing; leniency; mercy. an act or deed showing mercy or leniency.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

I don't think so.

I call for an independent trawl through all Senators and TD's representations on prisoner sentencing and we can all decide then.

I think that you are right.
Norris resigned the notion that he could be president because he admitted he did wrong. He took the proper and honourable way out. He admitted he made a mistake which is also right and that mistake precluded him from running for the Office of President.
To seek his resignation from the Senate without conducting an examination of who else did likewise would be totally wrong and an injustice and it would also be a witch hunt.
But he should now lead a process to make sure it never happens again.

ThreeTwoOne

Absolutely he should resign.
It's amazing this incident didn't come to light back in 1997.

The man is a reprehensible creep. His comments regarding 'classic' paedophilia are all the more woeful in light of this revelation. He should stick to hypothetical academia, as his opinions hold no place in modern civlised society.

And he thinks he has done a service to the gay community ? Really ? ... On the contrary, he has set the community back a good decade or so. A gay man who sees 'sense' in 'classic' paedophilia ? who would willfully abuse his position to defend the indefensible, the buggery of a 15 yr old child by a 45 yr old man ?

Seriously - all he's proven is just how narcissistic he really is - that he would see himself as fit to represent the people of Ireland. That he would go ahead with a presidential campaign, involving the time & effort of others knowing exactly what skeletons he had hiding in his closet.



As for the paedophile ex-lover of his, I'm curious when he started his humanitarian work. Before or after molesting the child ?

MadsL

So how many of you will be calling for the immediate resignation of any member who has appealled for clemency or ever given a character witness..???

anymore

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think that you are right.
Norris resigned the notion that he could be president because he admitted he did wrong. He took the proper and honourable way out. He admitted he made a mistake which is also right and that mistake precluded him from running for the Office of President.
To seek his resignation from the Senate without conducting an examination of who else did likewise would be totally wrong and an injustice and it would also be a witch hunt.
But he should now lead a process to make sure it never happens again.

Norris resigned when it became clear to even him that it was utterly impossible to get a nomination ! We are now descending onto farce.