Noise Pollution from refrigerated vans!!!

Sookie7

I'm new to boards so i'm not sure if i'm posting in the right category but i'm at my wits end and desperately need advice.
Firstly, a bit of background: I live in a detached house outside a town in a very quiet rural area (well... apart from my neighbours!!)
There is a meat packing business only 20 feet away from our house. Now, there has always been a bit of noise coming from the vans that they use for delivery i.e the refrigeration units on top of the vans but it has rarely encroached upon our lives. There has always been 'noise' but not to the point of driving us crazy, although thinking back we should have complained sooner but we were going through serious family illness so you can only guess that the 'noise' was not a priority.
Since last January though, it has gotten excessively worse. It starts in the afternoon when the vans start parking up (3-4 in total), and continues all evening and ALL NIGHT!!!! It's an intermittent thumping and actually penetrates the walls in such a manner that it sounds like a distant beat of music from a nightclub (the only way i can describe it). We have to leave our windows closed in the evening and I can't sleep in my own bed anymore as the repetitive humming is worse in there. We complained last summer and even the owner admitted there was a problem but said that they tried muffling the sound but it didn't work. This business is at the back of their house so i know that they're too greedy to rent somewhere more suitable. They even had the cheek to suggest that we move or get triple glazing!!!!!! We got someone from the local council to call to them but it was in the morning time when the vans are all out so that was a waste of time. We tried all last summer to resolve the problem but it's louder than ever and I want this to end!!! I will take any legal action possible but i don't know where to begin? Do i have any rights in this situation? They have planning for the business but God knows how the hell they got it!!!
Any ideas would be really appreciated.

al2009

I'd go negotiation rather than legal, has something changed to make the vans noisier? Are they trailers or small trucks/vans?

You're best bet may be to approach the owner to see are they using the trailiers for overnight storage, if they are then they would be better installing a permanent cold room for overnight use, this would be nearly silent. I work in refrigeration, mobile units over 2 years old are noisy and may be exempt from noise pollution as they are "temporary storage".

Then again would they pay for your triple glazing?

I think the EPA do noise pollution checks and have carried out checks in Cork at night.

alec

Daegerty

Jaysus the things people worry about. 1st world problems

Sookie7

Try living with it before you pass judgement...

I didn't post this to read condescending comments.

rcdk1

Sookie7 wrote: »

Try living with it before you pass judgement...

I didn't post this to read condescending comments.

Hi Sookie, welcome to boards. Don't bother responding to trolls like this, just use the "report" button (flag symbol) to report them and the mods will deal with them.

As for your problem, my aunt had a similar problem (although a long time ago) with the refrigeration unit of a neighboring supermarket. unfortunately it ended up in court but my aunt won and they had to install sound insulation.

Before taking them to court, you could also look at entering into an arbitration process.

Sookie7

Hi rcdk1!

Thanks!
Yes, i think arbitration is an option before we go down the legal route. Taking it to court is not an option that i'm whole heatedly embracing but it may be the only way from my past experience with these people.
It's really reassuring that your aunt's situation worked out and it sounds quite similar to mine...
There may be light at the end of the tunnel!:)

Thanks again!

djpbarry

Daegerty wrote: »

Jaysus the things people worry about. 1st world problems

If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, then don't post.

rcdk1 wrote: »

Hi Sookie, welcome to boards. Don't bother responding to trolls like this, just use the "report" button (flag symbol) to report them and the mods will deal with them.

You could do with taking your own advice - please don't accuse others of trolling, just report the post.

Mahatma coat

Sookie7 wrote: »

I'm new to boards so i'm not sure if i'm posting in the right category but i'm at my wits end and desperately need advice.
Firstly, a bit of background: I live in a detached house outside a town in a very quiet rural area (well... apart from my neighbours!!) My family have lived here for the past 15 years and I'm here for the last 7 of those 15 years.
For as long as we have lived here there has been a meat packing business only 20 feet away from our house. Now, there has always been a bit of noise coming from the vans that they use for delivery1 i.e the refrigeration units on top of the vans but it has rarely encroached upon our lives. There has always been 'noise' but not to the point of driving us crazy, although thinking back we should have complained sooner but we were going through serious family illness so you can only guess that the 'noise' was not a priority.
Since last January though, it has gotten excessively worse. It starts in the afternoon when the vans start parking up (3-4 in total), and continues all evening and ALL NIGHT!!!! It's an intermittent thumping and actually penetrates the walls in such a manner that it sounds like a distant beat of music from a nightclub (the only way i can describe it). We have to leave our windows closed in the evening and I can't sleep in my own bed anymore as the repetitive humming is worse in there. We complained last summer and even the owner admitted there was a problem but said that they tried muffling the sound but it didn't work. This business is at the back of their house so i know that they're too greedy to rent somewhere more suitable.2 They even had the cheek to suggest that we move or get triple glazing!!!!!! We got someone from the local council to call to them but it was in the morning time when the vans are all out so that was a waste of time. We tried all last summer to resolve the problem but it's louder than ever and I want this to end!!! I will take any legal action possible but i don't know where to begin? Do i have any rights in this situation? They have planning for the business but God knows how the hell they got it!!!3
Any ideas would be really appreciated.

]1
see theres yer Problem, Ye knew about the Meat packing plant when ye bought the house.

Your solutions are
Learn to Live with it for another 15 years
Move
Soundproof your House

or

You could spend a fortune in the courts whinging PoorMe, after a while the courts will pander to your whims and place highly convalyuted conditions on your neighbours, they will then be forced to spend lots of money they probably dont have Soundproofing their yard, the punitave cost of this will most likely force them out of business, but hey Feck em you need sleep more than they need Jobs

2
Seriously, This is what you think:eek: They sound like a small family business, struggling to make a living, I understand that Chillertrucks make noise (there were a few camped outside my window for Years wen we did Cauliflowers) but to presume that these people chose to park the vans there out of 'Greed' demonstrates a glaring lack of understanding to the situation

these machines genrally HAVE to be run all night, now some Plug in, but most
run directly off the motor, How long do you think you could leave a vehicle in an industrial estate overnight with the engine running before it got Stolen, how many times a night do you think they have to go out to them and check the diesel level.

3
what do you mean by this statement??

Sookie7

Sound insulation is something that I think may be a possibility but can you insulate the refrigeration unit on these trucks??

They told me it couldn't be done.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Mahatma coat

Yeah, tripple glaze your windows and soundproof youir walls and roof, The cost of Soundproofing your walls would depend on the type of house you live in.

overall tho adding the extra layers of Soundproofing will add extra insulation and reduce your overall heating bill

al2009

S

You can't directly insulate the fridge unit without adversely affecting performance, I've seen cases taken that have not succeeded, especially when the business is there a long time. Is there anyone local who could mediate on your behalf?

al

Sookie7

al

So that's not an option... hmmmm, I have heard of similar cases where the people causing the disturbance had to move the vehicles but not the 'ins and outs' so to speak.
Mediation is no longer an option i'm afraid as we tried reasoning with them to no avail... their suggestion of triple glazing is crazy as we are then limited to keeping our windows closed all evening and night and also we are unable to enjoy our garden.
I'm sure you can understand that it's no way to live... especially as we know it's every single day without any break from it.

Thanks for your advice.

Daegerty

Do people nowadays have even a single bit of tolerance for those around them or does even the slightest bit of inconvenience mandate the Law to be called in to give the wrongdoer a substantial fine that will most likely put them out of business?

Back in the day before everyone got obsessed about modernity and keeping up with the joneses people got along with each other, understood that these fridges make noise for a reason and maybe tried to put in a bit of soundproofing themselves.

Now it's all about who is to be held responsible, who can be punished for it and which tax paying qualified soundproofing installing agent with a 60 million euro cap on his public liability insurance is in line for the job of fixing this problem

mike65

Sookie7 wrote: »

Since last January though, it has gotten excessively worse. It starts in the afternoon when the vans start parking up (3-4 in total), and continues all evening and ALL NIGHT!!!!

Have you found out why the change in policy at the company? I'm curious as to why they are running van/truck cooling systems through the night. It suggests they are using the vehicles for storage rather than using the refrigeration units in the building/s.

Sookie7

Mike65

There was a mention of a new truck when we brought it to their attention so this has added to the problem but there are usually three in total.
They restock the trucks every evening and plug them in. So, the unit on top of the truck clicks in and out all night.
By clicking i mean switching on for about 20 minutes to cool the contents then switching off for about 15 minutes (sometimes less depending on the weather) and back on again... repeatedly until they come in the morning and drive the trucks out of the yard. They seem to have a fixed fridge but don't use for overnight storage.

writhen

Sookie7 - if there is excessive noise being produced by your neighbours business - it is not your responsibility to deal with it - it's theirs.

Contact an acoustic consultant and they will advise you how to proceed. PM me if you want some names.

Sookie7

I sent you a PM!

Mahatma coat

I notice the OP hasnt addressed teh other points I raised.

I'll ask you this OP

Would you it help you to sleep more soundly to know you had put your neighbour out of business??????

because thats ultimatley where this will lead

djpbarry

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Would you it help you to sleep more soundly to know you had put your neighbour out of business??????

Why are you leaping to the conclusion that the OP is the bad guy? And why do you assume there is no possible amicable solution?

mike65

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Would you it help you to sleep more soundly to know you had put your neighbour out of business??????

because thats ultimatley where this will lead

Thats quite a contention from someone who doesn't know anything about the matter beyond what's been posted in the opening post.

rcdk1

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I notice the OP hasnt addressed teh other points I raised.

I'm sure the OP will answer your questions themself but my reading (and opinion) of the posts so far is:

1. The OP's family has lived peacefully next to this business for 15 years but it is only in recent times that a dispute has arisen due to a change in work practices by the business. Therefore it is the business's responsibility to rectify the problem.

Your argument of "sleep vs. jobs" is the sensationalist and irrelevant. All businesses, large or small, have to obey the law. It's no different to someone having a loud party at all hours or some boyracer with a loud exhaust on his car. In fact, in those cases at least there's some hope of the noise stopping.

Also you shouldn't be dismissive of sleep deprevation as it can have a serious effect on people's lives.

2. I agree with you that calling the business owner greedy because they're running their business from their house is over the top. However, I refer you back to point no.1.

As for the machines running all night, again the issue has only arisen since January. As others have asked already, what was the business doing differently before this and why did they change their work practices?

3. The OP is wondering how the business got planning permission for a commercial unit in a rural setting but in close proximity to at least three houses.

al2009

Sookie

One explanation of what has happened recently is that the company no longer employ anyone to load the vehicles in the morning so now they are loaded the previous night ready to be driven away in the morning.

If i remember correctly from working with transport companies it is illegal to park a HGV in a residential area overnight unless previously exempted, i can't find a link to it though.

It would be worth contacting the Dept. of transport as the company should have a licence from them to operate, maybe ask advice from the dept. or from the EPA as regards noise pollution.

al

Sookie7

Many thanks for the insightful comments so far. They are really making a stressful situation more bearable and i appreciate the empathy expressed as i move forward with this very difficult issue in my life. Many of them (although, obviously not all) are helping to allow me see that there is a solution to this 'situation'.

I actually didn't realise that they have in fact stopped emptying the refrigerated HGV's in the evening (or at least not all of them), and have decided to keep the trucks plugged in with the meat inside all through the night and all day Saturday and Sunday. There is a fixed refrigeration unit so why not use it?? It's not like they don't know how upset we are! This seems like the obvious reason for the problem... I just wonder why they don't go back to the old way, knowing that if it's left like this it could cost them more in the long run???
I've decided to consult my solicitor and see if we can find some solution to this nightmare.

Mahatma coat

mike65 wrote: »

Thats quite a contention from someone who doesn't know anything about the matter beyond what's been posted in the opening post.

not really, Sookie7 lives Near thes trucks and its Driving him/her loopers of an evening:(, this guy has them outside his house:eek:

if he absolutley positivley didnt have to have the machines running all night you can be damm sure he wouldnt.

no Sane reasonable person wants that kind of noise constantly, but neds must.

Eh Sookie7, maybe you and the people in your house could volunter to help him stack the chiller room over the weekends

Overheal

Mahatma if you think the OP should bear the cost of soundproofing their home, from sound they aren't creating, why don't you feel it's fair to ask the business to upgrade its refrigeration equipment to something that doesn't produce so much noise? And whats wrong with them putting noise reduction measures on their lot? For instance theres a reason some houses that live alongside busy roads set up their gardens with shrubbery on the boundary: it's so the shrubbery can absorb the vast majority of roadside noise.

Ultimately I doubt this business has the right to operate the way it currently is.

Newtown Warrior

I would complain to the EPA directly if the company has an IPPC licence (see list here-http://www.epa.ie/terminalfour/ippc/index.jsp?disclaimer=yes&Submit=Continue)

The EPA guide to making an environmental complaint- http://www.epa.ie/whatwedo/enforce/report/

If the company do not have an IPPC licence contact the relevant County Council Environmental Department, the County Councils usually have a procedure/ contact on their websites for making environmental complaints.

Amateurish

I would go to the local pharmacy and buy a pair of nice soft earplugs, my wife works a lot of night so in the day time she has to contend with dogs, postman, newspapers, kids in the house, myself and possibly even the odd refrigerated truck. The earplugs work well. Some people like complaining though so maybe it has merit.

Edit: the earplugs are for my wife's ears not mine.

Macha

Amateurish - if it were an infrequent thing, I'd agree with you but I wouldn't be happy having to wear earplugs every night.

Is noise pollution in law in Ireland yet? I know the Green Party were talking about it.

Amateurish

Macha wrote: »

Amateurish - if it were an infrequent thing, I'd agree with you but I wouldn't be happy having to wear earplugs every night.

Is noise pollution in law in Ireland yet? I know the Green Party were talking about it.

From a nuisance perspective noise can be dealt with
http://www.tipperarynorth.ie/environment/env_noi_noi.html

Details how to apply to district Court for an order to reduce the noise. I assume failure to comply is at least contempt of court if not a serperate offence.
Maybe the business turning the trucks so that cooler units are further away would help. Timer controls on the mains supply cost less then a tenner each and would help prevent the coolers operating at the more critical times, I think folks are much less likely to wake around 3 - 5 am. Its unlikely a big cooler unit will defrost within a couple of hours at night. (I think)

Overheal

One explanation of what has happened recently is that the company no longer employ anyone to load the vehicles in the morning so now they are loaded the previous night ready to be driven away in the morning.

The more I think about it this makes no sense. The time spent loading at night can be pushed to the morning with no ill consequences. Really all they've done is pushed labor around and increased the cost of operating their trucks.

I would challenge them about this point.

Mahatma coat

As I said before,you cant turn off the freezer trucks not even for a few hours, once stuff is chilled it has to Remain chilled.

the diference between loading at night and loading in the morning may also be critical.

as I have said Before IMO if this company could do something about the noise they probably would, The OP reminds me of some of the peoplethat have moved to my area of Rural Ireland in recent years, the sort of people who complain about all the tractors on the road, or Farmers spreading slurry, or the noise of the cattle at night, or one ofthemany things that newcomers to country life were unaware of when they decided to move to the country for 'peace & quiet'

We had Freezer trucks here for years when we did Cauliflowers, and these werent the smal Transit van type either they were the full diesel powered artic trailer jobbies, they ran overnight every night for 4 months of the year, people were perfectly able to cope, Hell I had one outside my bedroom window and no one complained.
Recently however we have had some of the New neighbours complaining about the noise of the cement mixer my brother used when laying a new path around his place last Saturday :rolleyes:

Amateurish

Mahatma coat wrote: »

As I said before,you cant turn off the freezer trucks not even for a few hours, once stuff is chilled it has to Remain chilled.

the diference between loading at night and loading in the morning may also be critical.

as I have said Before IMO if this company could do something about the noise they probably would, The OP reminds me of some of the peoplethat have moved to my area of Rural Ireland in recent years, the sort of people who complain about all the tractors on the road, or Farmers spreading slurry, or the noise of the cattle at night, or one ofthemany things that newcomers to country life were unaware of when they decided to move to the country for 'peace & quiet'

We had Freezer trucks here for years when we did Cauliflowers, and these werent the smal Transit van type either they were the full diesel powered artic trailer jobbies, they ran overnight every night for 4 months of the year, people were perfectly able to cope, Hell I had one outside my bedroom window and no one complained.
Recently however we have had some of the New neighbours complaining about the noise of the cement mixer my brother used when laying a new path around his place last Saturday :rolleyes:

Cant be turned off eh? don't they turn themselves off occasionally like any cold room or fridge. I have a chicken on the counter here since 11am and its still not thawed out. A transit sized cooler unit with insulation just might take a little longer to warm up at night time.

Sookie7

I wish earplugs would work... i've tried but it doesn't make any difference as it's like a vibration coming through the walls.
Since reading these comments i've been more aware of the movements of the trucks coming in and out etc and they are definitely leaving stuff in the trucks overnight and it's quieter in the mornings as they only come in and drive away which they haven't always done. My sister sleeps in the room closest to the yard (10feet away!) and she has complained over the years of the noise from them loading up in the mornings but as i said in the first post, we were dealing with family illness so I just didn't have the energy to deal with these people and she has since gone to University and is only home at the weekends.


The fridges do switch on and off regularly and more frequently during the summer so i'm not sure if a timer would work as it probably needs to be at a specific temperature at all times. (i'm speculating here)
Essentially, this business has changed the way it operates to the detriment of my family and I. So, the lack of sleep/broken nights sleep and listening to that damn vibration every day and night is not something anyone should put up with.
We have tried talking to them AND they have stood in our house listening to the noise so it's not like they don't realise the extent of the problem.
By the way, they did move a truck out of the yard last year and to about 30 feet away from my neighbours house. He told me that he didn't get any sleep for a week while it was there... He went on to tell them to move the truck or else!!! They moved it that day right back to the yard, 10 feet away from my house!!!! AAAAHHHHHH!!
As far as i'm concerned these people have absolutely no respect for me and my family.
I know that the only way to resolve this is to seek legal advice and get the sound/acoustics measured.

Overheal

I know that the only way to resolve this is to seek legal advice and get the sound/acoustics measured.

And we can't help with that, but I'd strongly encourage it.

easychair

Sookie7 wrote: »

I know that the only way to resolve this is to seek legal advice and get the sound/acoustics measured.

If you know that, why put it off?

Corsendonk

Overheal wrote: »

The more I think about it this makes no sense. The time spent loading at night can be pushed to the morning with no ill consequences. Really all they've done is pushed labor around and increased the cost of operating their trucks.

I would challenge them about this point.

What knowledge of the internal workings of the business do you have? Does the OP work in the business? You have made an assumption on very little information.

Overheal

I'm always open minded toward more information, if given. Based on what I've been told, I made the advice I did.

Corsendonk

Overheal wrote: »

I'm always open minded toward more information, if given. Based on what I've been told, I made the advice I did.

Quite a few food manufacturing companies load at night in Ireland for delivery into one of the major CDC in the morning. Delivery times are next to impossible to change unless it suits the CDC operation not the manufacturer. I seen deliveries rejected when the delivery temp was wrong so its best practice not to load way ahead of time.

Overheal

From AH

Making a complaint
You should approach the person or business causing the noise and explain that it is a nuisance and try to come to a mutually acceptable solution. If this does not work, your local authority has the same power as individuals to bring noise complaints to the District Court. In addition, local authorities have similar powers to the Environmental Protection Agency in relation to premises, processes and works other than those that require licensing under the Environmental Protection Agency Act. The Environmental Protection Agency can require the person or body to take specific measures to prevent or limit noise. Anyone required to take such specific measures by the Environmental Protection Agency must do so or face prosecution.

If you wish to make a complaint to the District Court, you are not required to be represented by a solicitor, however, you may engage the assistance of a solicitor to help prepare your noise complaint and present this in court. You should consult with the Clerk of your local District Court about an appointment for the hearing of your case and refer precisely to the law relating to your case (Section 108 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 and the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 (Noise) Regulations 1994 (SI No. 179 of 1994).

The appointment for the hearing of your case must be at least 7 days later than the date on which you inform the person responsible for the noise nuisance that you will be taking your case to court. You must use a Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 - noise form of notice to inform the person or business that you will be taking them to court. It is important that you use this form of notice only and that you complete it fully and accurately.

The District Court will call both parties together and listens to both sides of the case. If the court finds in your favour, it can order the person or body to limit the noise, reduce the level of noise or stop the noise completely. Any Orders made by the court must be complied with.

Penalties for breach of law

The maximum fine for conviction on breach of noise regulations is €3,000 or 12 months in prison or both.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

Quite a few food manufacturing companies load at night in Ireland for delivery into one of the major CDC in the morning. Delivery times are next to impossible to change unless it suits the CDC operation not the manufacturer. I seen deliveries rejected when the delivery temp was wrong so its best practice not to load way ahead of time.

Then perhaps the business should strongly consider relocating to a business park, not a neighborhood.

Del2005

Overheal wrote: »

From AH

Then perhaps the business should strongly consider relocating to a business park, not a neighborhood.

It all depends on who was there 1st. If the company started before any houses where built then it's hardly the companies fault that our planners allowed buildings too close to their yard.

Also units aren't cheap so the company could close and we'd have even more people on the dole.

Corsendonk

Overheal wrote: »

From AH

Then perhaps the business should strongly consider relocating to a business park, not a neighborhood.

Quite a few Irish food companies start as country farms and decide to go into added value so they build the factory on the farm, they provide much needed jobs in rural areas. Relocating would only move the jobs to industrial estates outside major towns forcing more people to move from the countryside.