Kelly Thomas

Full.Duck

Just came across this and i am disgusted.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/07/witnesses-sought-in-fullerton-police-altercation-that-left-man-dead.html

6 Police officers tazered a homeless man up to 5 times, smashed his face in with the end of the tazer and flashlights , knee dropped him in the head and throat. He fell into a coma and died.

I have no words for how sickened i am by this act. The 6 police officers are still working to this day, one took sick leave i think. The media bearly even got a sniff of this and nobody is being held accountable.

Temptamperu

I read on Gawker today that the FBI are looking into it.

Coriolanus

LA police brutality case ending in a fatality. This has never happened before right?

Potential-Monke

To do something like that you'd want to be sick in the head...

DaveDaRave

I believe they got off because they shouted "He's coming right for us!!!"

c-note

America... i was there some years ago visiting relations who had previously lived in Ireland.

I borowed one of their cars for about a week. Their advice was threefold:

1 Remeber to drive on the Right hand side of the road.

2 If someone cuts you off on the freeway etc DONT beep/flash/signal, and if someone gives you aggro in a traffic situation stay calm and dont react, because 1 in 2 have guns in the car.

3 Thirdly If you have any encounter with the police, no matter where, when or what the circumstances are; Do EXACTLY as they say, when they say or theres a fair chance they'll shoot you.

A friend of mine was biking across the usa and had set up camp near Yosemite in california. He was stopped about 20 meters from the road making himself something to eat. a patrol car stoped on the road and the officer was looking at him. my buddy was holding a large-ish knife maybe 15cm blade, which he put back in his pocket and began to walk to the car assuming the cops were wondering what he was up to. que the cop exiting his car drawing his gun and yelling "hands in the air... down on the ground etc". when they found out he was a simple harmless J1 student they relaxed but warned him that he had approached police officer with a concealed weapon, and in future if he was approacing a cop make sure the cop was aware of any potential weapons, or he was likely to get himself shot.

Andrew Hanlon(20) from dundrum was unarmed and shot SEVEN times in Oregan in 2008.

Everyone in america knows you dont f**k with da Po-lice.

Absurdum

Kelly Thomas - sounds like a page 3 girl, looks like a hobo

Killer Pigeon

It's terrible, Joe.

pragmatic1

Scumbags. Some people shouldnt be let near a position of authority.

starviewadams

Jaysus thought this was about my ex!

brevity

The cops were found not guilty

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-0114-kelly-thomas-verdict-20140114,0,6482344.story

Potential-Monke

Surprising, but that's what a highly paid lawyer can do for you.

J_E

Finding the cops Not Guilty was one of the most devoid judgements I've ever seen. You can hear Kelly in the video screaming for life while being pummeled. You can also hear the police officer clearly saying "I'm gonna f*ck you up" putting on gloves in front of him. The guy didn't do anything to deserve such a horrific attack. It's murder in my book. It makes me really think twice about ever wanting to visit America, and the worse thing is, it's not the first or last time something like this happened.

It's these sadistic groups of people that in a sense, justifies the term 'pigs' when referring to parts of the police force. Absolutely horrific, in every way imaginable.



[/MOD SNIP] That video's not suitable for After Hours.

FTA69

brevity wrote: »

The cops were found not guilty

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-0114-kelly-thomas-verdict-20140114,0,6482344.story

The fellas who beat Rodney King half to death were found not guilty as well. Unfortunately abuse of power is an integral part of most police forces in the world today.

Dyr

Called them innocent at the time and was roundly abused on AH for doing so, few posters have egg on their face now i guess

Anyway let the trayvonesque media witch hunt begin,

Seedy Arling

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Surprising, but that's what a highly paid lawyer can do for you.

Chewbacca defence.

RDM_83 again

FTA69 wrote: »

The fellas who beat Rodney King half to death were found not guilty as well. Unfortunately abuse of power is an integral part of most police forces in the world today.

While I don't condone what happened to Rodney King in the slightest, I dislike the way he's always thrown out as an example as he did provoke officers and he put numerous lives at risk in the car chase. The other people with him in the car at the time were arrested without incident.

If I was an LA resident I wouldn't be worried about things like Rodney King case because I could never see myself in a situation of deliberately trying to antagonise police officers.

What would worry me and is much more serious is thing like RAMPART where stuff occurred that makes Rodney Kings situation seem like School Yard bullying in comparison. The thing is though RAMPART doesn't fit neatly into the White Authorities against the Black man way of thinking in the slightest so perhaps thats why its not often used as an example.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

RDM_83 again wrote: »

What would worry me and is much more serious is thing like RAMPART where stuff occurred that makes Rodney Kings situation seem like School Yard bullying in comparison. The thing is though RAMPART doesn't fit neatly into the White Authorities against the Black man way of thinking in the slightest so perhaps thats why its not often used as an example.

it does make for some god damn incredible tv though

end of the road

Bambi wrote: »

Called them innocent at the time and was roundly abused on AH for doing so, few posters have egg on their face now i guess

Anyway let the trayvonesque media witch hunt begin,

you called it right allright, as they were always going to be found not guilty, american police can behave with impunity, bet you though if one took a little coke he'd have the book thrown at him but cause a death by behaving like vermin (which these officers did) and you'l get away with it, good old america, the land of the free

FTA69

RDM_83 again wrote: »

While I don't condone what happened to Rodney King in the slightest, I dislike the way he's always thrown out as an example as he did provoke officers and he put numerous lives at risk in the car chase. The other people with him in the car at the time were arrested without incident.

If I was an LA resident I wouldn't be worried about things like Rodney King case because I could never see myself in a situation of deliberately trying to antagonise police officers.

What would worry me and is much more serious is thing like RAMPART where stuff occurred that makes Rodney Kings situation seem like School Yard bullying in comparison. The thing is though RAMPART doesn't fit neatly into the White Authorities against the Black man way of thinking in the slightest so perhaps thats why its not often used as an example.

Police brutality, racism and the rest in the USA isn't limited to Rodney King. There are countless other examples we can draw on. I am only using him as an example of how a jury decision isn't necessarily cast-iron, least of all when it involves the police.

The video shows it all really.

120_Minutes

end of the road wrote: »

good old america, the land of the free

[Bill Hicks] You are free, to do as we tell you[/Bill Hicks]

RDM_83 again

FTA69 wrote: »

Police brutality, racism and the rest in the USA isn't limited to Rodney King. There are countless other examples we can draw on. I am only using him as an example of how a jury decision isn't necessarily cast-iron, least of all when it involves the police.

The video shows it all really.

I don't disagree with the notion of the police in the USA being brutal on occasion, I just think Rodney King isn't the best example and he is always trotted out because it fits a nice clear cut world view that ties into the race thing.

In the Federal King case that actually resulted in the conviction of two of the officers, the judge made a big point of how most of what they did (including a good part of the beating) was legal because King was resisting arrest.

In the Rampart case I mentioned in my post, the Police officer that was shot was pointing a gun and threatening to "cap them" in a road rage incident, to me thats much more frightening and indicative of seriously violent and dangerous officers being in the force than 2 officers striking 5/6 batton blows more than they should have in the arrest of a resisting suspect.
The difference is that case doesn't have the right aspects (being a black officer threatening to kill somebody he presumes is a white civilian).

FTA69

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I don't disagree with the notion of the police in the USA being brutal on occasion,

I'd go so far as to say they're institutionally racist.

I just think Rodney King isn't the best example and he is always trotted out because it fits a nice clear cut world view that ties into the race thing.

It was popularised because it was caught on camera. Black people for years were well accustomed to police brutality and racism and this simply came to symbolise it because it was there for all to see. The acquittals were the straw that broke the camel's back and was the catalyst for years of pent up rage to emerge.

The difference is that case doesn't have the right aspects (being a black officer threatening to kill somebody he presumes is a white civilian).

What's the "right aspect"? Do you think it's actually whites who are oppressed in America or something?

UCDVet

RDM_83 again wrote: »

While I don't condone what happened to Rodney King in the slightest, I dislike the way he's always thrown out as an example as he did provoke officers and he put numerous lives at risk in the car chase. The other people with him in the car at the time were arrested without incident.

If I was an LA resident I wouldn't be worried about things like Rodney King case because I could never see myself in a situation of deliberately trying to antagonise police officers.

What would worry me and is much more serious is thing like RAMPART where stuff occurred that makes Rodney Kings situation seem like School Yard bullying in comparison. The thing is though RAMPART doesn't fit neatly into the White Authorities against the Black man way of thinking in the slightest so perhaps thats why its not often used as an example.

Everyone has heard of Rodney King - but most people (myself included) just think it was 4 white cops who decided to beat some black guy. I honestly believed that. I didn't know any of the details - but it was just common knowledge. They cops beat a black guy, then the jury let them off because cops can do whatever they want, and the city rioted.

It wasn't 10+ years later that I stumbled unto the Rodney King's wikipedia page. This world is filled with injustice - but King getting beat doesn't even register for me.

As you've pointed out there were three people in the vehicle. The other two didn't resist arrest and were arrested without any violence.

King was very drunk, driving over the speed limit, while on probation for a previous robbery. And when cops tried to pull him over, he tried to out-drive them, going over 80mph IN RESIDENTIAL areas before driving into a dead-end. Then he refused to comply with the police, acted all sorts of crazy, physically resisted arrest, fought off four cops, was tasered twice, got up and RAN at one of the cops (who hit him). Then the cop stops hitting up, AND HE GETS UP AGAIN.

He continued to resist while they hit him 33 more times (all captured on video). The first jury acquitted three of the officers, later a federal investigation concluded the same thing - that 3 of them were innocent of wrong-doing but the 4th (the one King charged) hit him an extra SIX times after he stopped resisting.

So, to conclude, 27 of those 33 were reasonable. That's when King gave up. Then the guy he attacked hit him six more times....and that was deemed a crime....

King went on to drive drunk lots of times and continue to be a big drain on society. Two years later he crashed into a wall (while drunk). Two years after that he was arrested for hitting his wife *WITH HIS CAR*. In 2003 he was drunk again and fleeing from police when he crashed into SOMEONE'S HOUSE and he broke his pelvis. Again - drunk driving is bad enough, but this was another high-speed pursuit where he was fleeing from police. Maybe he was hoping for another 4 million dollar payday?

I mean, it just kept going on and on....until 2012 when he was found dead in a swimming pool.

He had alcohol, cocaine, marijuana and PCP in his system.

Officer Powell - the bad guy who beat King, was a honor student who always wanted to be a cop. He finished top of his class at the police academy. No history of violence and none of my searches have found any problems with the law. His crime was not recognizing that 27 was an appropriate number of times to hit someone who was drunk, speeding, fleeing police, resisting arrest, who'd fought off four police officers, overcome being tasered *TWICE* and still RAN AT THE COPS. He clearly over-reacted by letting the hit count reach 33. He had to stop being a cop, but went on to be a productive member of society. And, while frequently accused of being racist, he had spent lots of time with children of different races as he was growing up because his parents were foster parents. They took in children of lots of different races. From what I can find, he does computer stuff these days.

Oh - and the charges against King were dropped. He literally got a get-out-of-jail free card along with his four million dollars.

At least, based on the information available on Wikipedia.

What I find really depressing is that people were so enraged over King they were willing to take to the streets and riot. I mean, wow. I assume they were all as uninformed about it as I was and thought they were fighting the good fight.

seamus

I don't know enough about this case to draw any conclusions.

The fact that these cops were found not guilty by a jury who appear to have seen a video of the incident (which I haven't seen), kind of rules out the old argument that this was "cops doing whatever the hell they like", doesn't it? Surely if it was a straightforward beatdown, as this thread and facebook seem to suggest, then the jury would have seen that too?

BillyMitchel

Wow this is two years old and verdict was only this week.

The coppers were guilty as hell here. The photo of what they done to that man is disgusting. Justice my arse.

J_E

seamus wrote: »

I don't know enough about this case to draw any conclusions.

The fact that these cops were found not guilty by a jury who appear to have seen a video of the incident (which I haven't seen), kind of rules out the old argument that this was "cops doing whatever the hell they like", doesn't it? Surely if it was a straightforward beatdown, as this thread and facebook seem to suggest, then the jury would have seen that too?

The guy was tasered, beaten, and couldn't physically breathe. He was trying to tell the police this as it happened and was screaming for someone to help him. He died a few days later. They weren't even found guilty of battery. the guy never so much as said a bad word to the men and they were putting on gloves in front of his face telling him that he was going to get beaten up. Looking at a picture of him after the beating alone easily shows the excessive force they used. It's called murder, or manslaughter at the very least. I'm still shaken by the video...

end of the road

UCDVet wrote: »

Everyone has heard of Rodney King - but most people (myself included) just think it was 4 white cops who decided to beat some black guy. I honestly believed that. I didn't know any of the details - but it was just common knowledge. They cops beat a black guy, then the jury let them off because cops can do whatever they want, and the city rioted.

It wasn't 10+ years later that I stumbled unto the Rodney King's wikipedia page. This world is filled with injustice - but King getting beat doesn't even register for me.

As you've pointed out there were three people in the vehicle. The other two didn't resist arrest and were arrested without any violence.

King was very drunk, driving over the speed limit, while on probation for a previous robbery. And when cops tried to pull him over, he tried to out-drive them, going over 80mph IN RESIDENTIAL areas before driving into a dead-end. Then he refused to comply with the police, acted all sorts of crazy, physically resisted arrest, fought off four cops, was tasered twice, got up and RAN at one of the cops (who hit him). Then the cop stops hitting up, AND HE GETS UP AGAIN.

He continued to resist while they hit him 33 more times (all captured on video). The first jury acquitted three of the officers, later a federal investigation concluded the same thing - that 3 of them were innocent of wrong-doing but the 4th (the one King charged) hit him an extra SIX times after he stopped resisting.

So, to conclude, 27 of those 33 were reasonable. That's when King gave up. Then the guy he attacked hit him six more times....and that was deemed a crime....

King went on to drive drunk lots of times and continue to be a big drain on society. Two years later he crashed into a wall (while drunk). Two years after that he was arrested for hitting his wife *WITH HIS CAR*. In 2003 he was drunk again and fleeing from police when he crashed into SOMEONE'S HOUSE and he broke his pelvis. Again - drunk driving is bad enough, but this was another high-speed pursuit where he was fleeing from police. Maybe he was hoping for another 4 million dollar payday?

I mean, it just kept going on and on....until 2012 when he was found dead in a swimming pool.

He had alcohol, cocaine, marijuana and PCP in his system.

Officer Powell - the bad guy who beat King, was a honor student who always wanted to be a cop. He finished top of his class at the police academy. No history of violence and none of my searches have found any problems with the law. His crime was not recognizing that 27 was an appropriate number of times to hit someone who was drunk, speeding, fleeing police, resisting arrest, who'd fought off four police officers, overcome being tasered *TWICE* and still RAN AT THE COPS. He clearly over-reacted by letting the hit count reach 33. He had to stop being a cop, but went on to be a productive member of society. And, while frequently accused of being racist, he had spent lots of time with children of different races as he was growing up because his parents were foster parents. They took in children of lots of different races. From what I can find, he does computer stuff these days.

Oh - and the charges against King were dropped. He literally got a get-out-of-jail free card along with his four million dollars.

At least, based on the information available on Wikipedia.

What I find really depressing is that people were so enraged over King they were willing to take to the streets and riot. I mean, wow. I assume they were all as uninformed about it as I was and thought they were fighting the good fight.

i think the fact they hit him that many times shows how incompitent they actually were, their was enough of them there they should have been able to restrain him, the way they handeled it was a shambles in fairness

UCDVet

end of the road wrote: »

i think the fact they hit him that many times shows how incompitent they actually were, their was enough of them there they should have been able to restrain him, the way they handeled it was a shambles in fairness

Maybe they were trying to use the minimal amount of force?

I'm sure they could have shot him and ended it.
In fairness, none of the officers were hurt, so it seemed like they handled it pretty well, except for not recognizing when he'd stopped resisting.

end of the road

seamus wrote: »

I don't know enough about this case to draw any conclusions.

The fact that these cops were found not guilty by a jury who appear to have seen a video of the incident (which I haven't seen), kind of rules out the old argument that this was "cops doing whatever the hell they like", doesn't it? Surely if it was a straightforward beatdown, as this thread and facebook seem to suggest, then the jury would have seen that too?

it could be the case that the jury are very trusting of the police and felt their actions were justified, another jury who might also be trusting of the police might have decided their actions were over the top

end of the road

UCDVet wrote: »

Maybe they were trying to use the minimal amount of force?

jesus, if thats minimal force then i think we know what full force can be, they over reacted, if 4 cops aren't able to restrain a single man without having to beat him over 30 times then its time for them to be demoted to desk duties or sacked, loose cannons comes to mind

UCDVet wrote: »

I'm sure they could have shot him and ended it.

i'm surprised they didn't.

UCDVet wrote: »

In fairness, none of the officers were hurt, so it seemed like they handled it pretty well

not being hurt doesn't mean you have handled something well, they didn't handle this well at all

UCDVet wrote: »

except for not recognizing when he'd stopped resisting.

exactly, so therefore they should be on desk duties or sacked, letting them back on the streets will be another disaster waiting to happen

UCDVet

end of the road wrote: »

jesus, if thats minimal force then i think we know what full force can be, they over reacted, if 4 cops aren't able to restrain a single man without having to beat him over 30 times then its time for them to be demoted to desk duties or sacked, loose cannons comes to mind

i'm surprised they didn't.

not being hurt doesn't mean you have handled something well, they didn't handle this well at all

exactly, so therefore they should be on desk duties or sacked, letting them back on the streets will be another disaster waiting to happen

How many cops do you think it *should* take to restrain Mike Tyson, while drunk, in his prime?

The reality of it is that there is a lot involved in being a cop and only a tiny percentage of it is restraining people. There are professional MMA fighters that are bigger, stronger, and faster than even the toughest cops - much less the average cop. It's unrealistic to expect someone to magically be able to take on someone in a physical altercation, just because they are a cop.

Again, ignoring the last six blows, everything the cops did was by the books and correct.

Using the taser as an example - the taser is quite effective. The fact that it didn't phase Mr. King even after being used twice doesn't mean that the taser is useless and shouldn't be used. I'm inclined to believe that the guy was either strong, tougher, more determined, or drunker than the the people for which it is effective.

I'm not even a tough guy - but I have a look at some of the guards and I'm confident that one on one I'd be able to take them. And that's FINE. I'd rather have friendly, intelligent, people than super-tough guys. Same deal with bouncers at a night club. They aren't SUPPOSED to be able to take on any guy that walks in the door, they are supposed to maintain order and they often do that by outnumbering the people they take on.

While I totally dig the idea that every cop should be Robocop with superhuman strength....it just doesn't work.

In the Rodney King situation - the cops were pretty effective. They used some amount of force, found it to be ineffective and used more force. The cops weren't injured and while you can say 33 hits is a lot - it happened in 66 seconds. As far as I'm concerned, that's good enough. The ONLY thing they did wrong was not stopping at 27 and, for that, at least one of them spent years in jail.

The ones that kept hitting him might have been bad cops but again, the cop was sent to jail and lost his job. So he *was* punished (more than Rodney King was, IMHO).

end of the road

UCDVet wrote: »

How many cops do you think it *should* take to restrain Mike Tyson, while drunk, in his prime?

The reality of it is that there is a lot involved in being a cop and only a tiny percentage of it is restraining people. There are professional MMA fighters that are bigger, stronger, and faster than even the toughest cops - much less the average cop. It's unrealistic to expect someone to magically be able to take on someone in a physical altercation, just because they are a cop.

Again, ignoring the last six blows, everything the cops did was by the books and correct.

Using the taser as an example - the taser is quite effective. The fact that it didn't phase Mr. King even after being used twice doesn't mean that the taser is useless and shouldn't be used. I'm inclined to believe that the guy was either strong, tougher, more determined, or drunker than the the people for which it is effective.

I'm not even a tough guy - but I have a look at some of the guards and I'm confident that one on one I'd be able to take them. And that's FINE. I'd rather have friendly, intelligent, people than super-tough guys. Same deal with bouncers at a night club. They aren't SUPPOSED to be able to take on any guy that walks in the door, they are supposed to maintain order and they often do that by outnumbering the people they take on.

While I totally dig the idea that every cop should be Robocop with superhuman strength....it just doesn't work.

In the Rodney King situation - the cops were pretty effective. They used some amount of force, found it to be ineffective and used more force. The cops weren't injured and while you can say 33 hits is a lot - it happened in 66 seconds. As far as I'm concerned, that's good enough. The ONLY thing they did wrong was not stopping at 27 and, for that, at least one of them spent years in jail.

The ones that kept hitting him might have been bad cops but again, the cop was sent to jail and lost his job. So he *was* punished (more than Rodney King was, IMHO).

they handled it shambolically

woodoo

In any civilised country those cops would be in jail.

UCDVet

end of the road wrote: »

they handled it shambolically

Fair enough.

Incompetent cops or not....

I certainly wouldn't hold up Rodney King as an example of police brutality or of racial profiling as it so frequently is. Mr. King was a complete d-bag by any definition of d-bag I have ever seen and while he might not have deserved 33 hits, he did deserve 27. And, given that the cops were put on trial AND at least one served jail-time, it's hardly an example of police being above the law or of systematic corruption in the legal system.

There are real cases of innocent (often black) men being arrested, abused until they confessed, then placed on trial, found guilty (by a bunch of white southerners), and put in jail for 30 years that were good people who didn't do anything wrong. But everyone keeps talking about Rodney King, the abusive, alcoholic, convicted repeat offender who got paid ~4 million dollars and had his criminal charges dropped as an example of someone who was given an unfair deal by a racist and corrupt system.

end of the road

UCDVet wrote: »

Fair enough.

Incompetent cops or not....

I certainly wouldn't hold up Rodney King as an example of police brutality or of racial profiling as it so frequently is. Mr. King was a complete d-bag by any definition of d-bag I have ever seen and while he might not have deserved 33 hits, he did deserve 27. And, given that the cops were put on trial AND at least one served jail-time, it's hardly an example of police being above the law or of systematic corruption in the legal system.

There are real cases of innocent (often black) men being arrested, abused until they confessed, then placed on trial, found guilty (by a bunch of white southerners), and put in jail for 30 years that were good people who didn't do anything wrong. But everyone keeps talking about Rodney King, the abusive, alcoholic, convicted repeat offender who got paid ~4 million dollars and had his criminal charges dropped as an example of someone who was given an unfair deal by a racist and corrupt system.

he didn't even need 27 hits, way over the top, if anything it shows that better training is needed

Femme_Fatale

Bambi wrote: »

Called them innocent at the time

On what basis? It looking bad-ass of you?

user2011

Better training to be able to deal with mentally unwell people is what they need nothing to do with restraining people.

The screams of him calling for his Dad

If I was his Dad and listening to that as my sons final words would send me over the edge.. I'd be in jail for a very long time.

sunflower27

Absolutely shocking story.

As if that man's life wasn't tragic enough, but to die while screaming for help from his father while he is beat and bludgeoned to death is absolutely disgusting.

end of the road

sunflower27 wrote: »

Absolutely shocking story.

As if that man's life wasn't tragic enough, but to die while screaming for help from his father while he is beat and bludgeoned to death is absolutely disgusting.

hopefully these vermin will have it made very difficult for them by their colleagues who actually want to be there and make a difference

returnNull

if that was my son I'd fukking kill the kunts.

Hopefully it will be pursued at a federal level but Im not hopeful.

That video is hard to watch.

RDM_83 again

FTA69 wrote: »

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'd go so far as to say they're institutionally racist.

It was popularised because it was caught on camera. Black people for years were well accustomed to police brutality and racism and this simply came to symbolise it because it was there for all to see. The acquittals were the straw that broke the camel's back and was the catalyst for years of pent up rage to emerge.

I think the brutality issue is a separate issue to the racism issue.

This isn't saying that neither exists.

What I feel is that as far as I can see American police seem to resort to violence and occasionally extreme levels of it where it is not necessary (I haven't lived in the states though).

Black people would suffer more from this due to racism and profiling issues but as can be seen from any search on a youtube etc the willingness to use excessive force is a factor in encounters whether the "suspect" is black or white.

FTA69 wrote: »

What's the "right aspect"? Do you think it's actually whites who are oppressed in America or something?

No but that doesn't reduce the fact that there is a particular narrative that tends to come into play in relation to white authority on black violence.
The specific incident I mention it is an excellent example how situations are handled if there is not political capital to be gained from inflating them (the city settled in a case the Judge made clear if they challenged they would have won)

Witness how the Travyon incident (not commenting on the rights and wrongs of it) resulted in senior Government figures intervening because there was significant political capitol to be made.

RDM_83 again

end of the road wrote: »

jesus, if thats minimal force then i think we know what full force can be, they over reacted, if 4 cops aren't able to restrain a single man without having to beat him over 30 times then its time for them to be demoted to desk duties or sacked, loose cannons comes to mind

While I agree that that level of violence can never be justified and what they did was just brutal, I some garda arresting a few lads (the joys of living in north inner city Dublin ), one guy had two garda on him and they couldn't restrain him, then another two joined in and they still couldn't get him into the wagon in the end it was six garda that got him properly restrained and arrested.
Now they seem to have acted really professionally and no battons or anything were used but I was really suprised how hard it was for them to subdue one (large) guy if they decide there is no way they are being taken in.

Dyr

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

On what basis? It looking bad-ass of you?

Oh Just a silly hunch that their actions would be defensible in a court


Stupid juries :mad:

UCDVet

end of the road wrote: »

he didn't even need 27 hits, way over the top, if anything it shows that better training is needed

Exactly how many hits did he need?

Potential-Monke

Just going to put it out there, and i'm in no way saying that it was handled perfectly, or even well, but, when someone who doesn't want to be arrested (be it right or wrong) they will shout and say anything to make the un-informed passing by try to help them. "Assault", "Brutality", "I can't breathe", "You're breaking my (appendage)" and "Help" are the most common things shouted out by someone being arrested against their will. It's rarely the case that those words are indications of what is going on.

Now, i watched the video, start to finish. The first issue i had with it (as a Garda) was the threat of "fu%king you up" with his fists. Idiotic move, considering he knows he's wearing a mic. So Kelly tells him to bring it on. A struggle starts, Kelly is brought down and the whole incident takes a turn. Now, i don't know if any of ye have ever tried to arrest someone who doesn't want to be arreted, and it's something you learn quite quick in the job, but if someone doesn't want to be arrested they get this surge of strength out of nowhere. It's not uncommon for 4+ members being needed to subdue even a skinny person. Size is not an indication of strength, and the person being arrested is more determined to get free than the cop is determined to arrest them.

Anyway, back to the video. Kelly is quite obviously refusing to co-operate (even if he says ok, etc), as if he co-operated they would not have been struggling with him for so long. You use force (if necessary) until the objective is attained. If he had co-operated and put his hands behind his back, he would have been left handcuffed behind his back, face down, with maybe 1 or 2 cops holding him there, and possibly another one or two holding his legs. However, he didn't co-operate (as is obvious by the struggling and the fact that he ended up handcuffed to the front), and that's why the struggle continued.

And back to the bad parts. You can hear a cop shout "Choke him out" and this apparently happens. Don't know if that's an ok thing to do in the US of A, but it's 100% something i wouldn't even dream of doing, and would actively stop a colleague if they started doing it. Crazy carry on, restricting someones airways like that, and you can hear Kelly slowly succumbing to it. Also, i think it's an indication of the determination of Kelly when you hear a cop saying that his Tazer was fully used up. Christ, nearly every video of someone getting tazed, 1 hit is enough to incapacitate them. But, and you can hear the cop saying clearly in the video, that once it was used up his hit him in the face with it. In the face! Idiot. Legs and arms, that's what you hit if necessary. Not the face.

Anyway, paramedics could see that he had stopped breathing, that he was turning blue, and that there was loads of blood. I'm fairly surprised that they got off with it. The coroner didn't help the case, stating that she believed it was due to chest compression when there was no actual signs of same (read the autopsy), but there was bruising to one side of his chest. X-Rays showed cracked ribs, but no mention of this in the autopsy. And the prosecution were also using the enlarged heart as a sign or assault, whereas the heart was enlarged due to previous heavy drug abuse. I was also surprised to hear that there were no drugs found in the toxicology report, i was full sure they'd find meth, or cocaine.

All in all, can't see how they got off with it. I can see why they got off murder: that has to be premeditated, whereas imo this wasn't. Manslaughter, maybe. Abuse of power, definitely. Assault causing serious harm. Definitely. As i said above, goes to show what a highly paid lawyer can do for you. But the FBI are looking into it still. Give it 10 years or so and we'll see them prosecuted for assault at least.

Da Shins Kelly

UCDVet wrote: »

What I find really depressing is that people were so enraged over King they were willing to take to the streets and riot. I mean, wow. I assume they were all as uninformed about it as I was and thought they were fighting the good fight.

People didn't take to the streets and riot simply because of Rodney King. The LA riots were years in the making. It was a manifestation of dissatisfaction that was bubbling up for years in Los Angeles, it was only a matter of time before it all erupted. The King incident was simply the last straw. It wasn't this one incident that incited people to take to the streets - it was years of abuse of power within the LAPD that incited the LA riots. Rodney King just became the face of it because his incident happened to be caught on camera.

As for this case, it's depressing to say the least.