EU/IMF new budget targets- lousy Christmas this year!

chasm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0729/budget.html

"The EU and IMF have detailed a list of tough new targets which will be included in the December's Budget.

Department of Finance - €2.1bn to be raised through cuts in expenditure

Among the measures are social welfare cuts and mechanisms to raise more taxes including a lowering of personal income tax bands and credits.

In an updated document posted on the Department of Finance website, the EU and IMF say €1.5bn will be raised by way of increased taxation and €2.1bn from expenditure cuts.

It says there will be a reduction in private pension tax reliefs, a property tax and reform of capital gains and capital acquisition tax.

It confirms an increase in the carbon tax, which was included in the State's four-year plan.

Spending cuts will include 'social expenditure reductions', it says.

There will be a cut in the number of workers in the public service and public service pension reductions."


I read a little of the "updated document" mentioned in the article and it seems very bleak to me. I just love the way these things get released while the politicians are on their 2 month break!

Biggins

Of course these next cuts will be 'leaked' to us over the coming months yet again as to drip feed us all slowly into compliance and non-surprise yet again for the official day of announcement.

The old "Boiling Frog" tactic again.

The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.

oppenheimer1

So on average about €600 more in tax per worker in employment next year. Of course some will pay more and some will pay less

cesc77

Havent you got it by now?

It doesnt matter who we vote for or where we buy our media.

They are linked in a lovely corrupt back-scratching circle.

For social welfare, can they not leave the base €188 as it is, but heavily cut everything else?

Everyone that's on JSB or JSA is getting the €188, so would it not make sense to leave that alone, and then hammer the shite out of rent allowance and child-related payments and such, so the Joe Soap that's just trying to get by won't be hit as hard as Mary and her 17 kids?

Or is that illogial?

oppenheimer1

cesc77 wrote: »

Havent you got it by now?

It doesnt matter who we vote for or where we buy our media.

They are linked in a lovely corrupt back-scratching circle.

How is it corrupt? We spend more than we take in and no one wants cuts in services or anything else, so the money has to be raised some way. People seem to forget that the country is running a massive budget deficit.

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

For social welfare, can they not leave the base €188 as it is, but heavily cut everything else?

Everyone that's on JSB or JSA is getting the €188, so would it not make sense to leave that alone, and then hammer the shite out of rent allowance and child-related payments and such, so the Joe Soap that's just trying to get by won't be hit as hard as Mary and her 17 kids?

Or is that illogial?

I'm thinking childrens allowance will take a battering possibly be included as taxable income or means test or something like that. Would they be brave enough to introduce phased reductions in welfare payments to the long term young unemployed?

cesc77

Biggins wrote: »

Of course these next cuts will be 'leaked' to us over the coming months yet again as to drip feed us all slowly into compliance and non-surprise yet again for the official day of announcement.

The old "Boiling Frog" tactic again.

Contemporary biologists have been paid to boil frogs to see if they will jump out?:rolleyes:

I wouldnt be surprised.Poor frogs though.

Bet it was french biologists:mad::pac:

Biggins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

How is it corrupt? We spend more than we take in and no one wants cuts in services or anything else, so the money has to be raised some way. People seem to forget that the country is running a massive budget deficit.

While I agree in your premise, there is a point for many that if too much is cut from the average Joe Soap, they are unable then to spend what little they have left or afraid to - and that will subsequently have a deeper falling domino effect too on the economy both locally and nationally.
We can all see it already happening in our closing shops, business, bars and other outlets.
...And its only going to get worse.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

...Would they be brave enough to introduce phased reductions in welfare payments to the long term young unemployed?

Aaa yes, that old never tiring stick it in the back, 'they are to blame - lets get them all' reasoning yet again.
...Sure aren't they all alike, so lets cut the lot of them!

Kojak

They are going to reduce peoples tax credits/tax bands which will bring people into higer tax brackets sooner (as long as they are working), yet the government expects the public to go out and spend more cash in the local econeomy to get the country going again.

That's daft, tbh. What this will do, imo, will make people even less likely to spend any disposable income and keep saving it for the even rainier days that are down the track

amacca

Biggins wrote: »

Of course these next cuts will be 'leaked' to us over the coming months yet again as to drip feed us all slowly into compliance and non-surprise yet again for the official day of announcement.

The old "Boiling Frog" tactic again.

I cant quite work out what temperature the water is.....but I can be sure those most culpable (and dont give the we all partied bs AHers) wont be here with us when wisps of steam start rising

amacca

Deleted User wrote: »

For social welfare, can they not leave the base €188 as it is, but heavily cut everything else?

Everyone that's on JSB or JSA is getting the €188, so would it not make sense to leave that alone, and then hammer the shite out of rent allowance and child-related payments and such, so the Joe Soap that's just trying to get by won't be hit as hard as Mary and her 17 kids?

Or is that illogial?

I think its quite logical tbh

but figure out what will net them the most votes if they have any wriggle room to implement it that is...and that is what will happen...unfortunately that is not always logical from a sane persons point of view

Biggins

amacca wrote: »

I cant quite work out what temperature the water is.....but I can be sure those most culpable (and dont give the we all partied bs AHers) wont be here with us when wisps of steam start rising

Very true, the ones that will go, once again will be the young more so.
All the more reasons we are creating for causing export of our years of educating our offspring, the export of their drive and initiative - and frankly - can you blame them for going? Honestly?
Stay young man/woman and get the bollox cut out from under you, be jumped on by every person that thinks "yes, lets victimise volunteer our youth to cough up for the nation".

We should as a nation be making reason for them to stay - not giving them even more reasons to fcuk off!
When will someone in government wake the fcuk up!

oppenheimer1

Biggins wrote: »

While I agree in your premise, there is a point for many that if too much is cut from the average Joe Soap, they are unable then to spend what little they have left or afraid to - and that will subsequently have a deeper falling domino effect too on the economy both locally and nationally.
We can all see it already happening in our closing shops, business, bars and other outlets.
...And its only going to get worse.

But if they don't get it from Joe soap then who are they going to take it from? In 2009 there were only 796 people earning over €1m per year in the country, and that number has fallen since. Taxing the wealthy to pay for social programmes doesn't work because there simply isn't enough of them. The bulk of the population are made up of low and middle income earners so unfortunately they have to carry the burden. A low tax on a large number of people yields more then a high tax on a small number of people.

There is a risk of a domino effect, but in terms of raising money there is no alternative.

oppenheimer1

Biggins wrote: »

Aaa yes, that old never tiring stick it in the back, 'they are to blame - lets get them all' reasoning yet again.
...Sure aren't they all alike, so lets cut the lot of them!

In fairness, some of them are to blame for their own predicament. When I go to visit the village where my parents live and the town I grew up in, I see some of the people I spent a few years in school with. They left education early to make money labouring on the buildings during the boom. Now they are unskilled and out of training and education and their only occupation is video games and drinking it seems. Some young people simply aren't trying, because welfare is good to them. Rent and share a cheap house in a ghost estate down the country with a few mates and you can live the life of Riley... literally.

Biggins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But if they don't get it from Joe soap then who are they going to take it from? In 2009 there were only 796 people earning over €1m per year in the country, and that number has fallen since. Taxing the wealthy to pay for social programmes doesn't work because there simply isn't enough of them. The bulk of the population are made up of low and middle income earners so unfortunately they have to carry the burden. A low tax on a large number of people yields more then a high tax on a small number of people.

There is a risk of a domino effect, but in terms of raising money there is no alternative.

...In that case we are bolloxed. Plain and simple.

If Joe Soap had €100 in his pocket and for him to live per week costs €100 BARE MINIMUM - then the government says they want another tenner per week off everyone...
...What then?
...And many, many have reached that point and far more are gone beyond it, to broke now.

I hear what your saying oppenheimer1, and I agree a lot but as another saying goes "you can't get blood from a stone" - and many have reached the point of having nothing but possibly stones in their pockets to fill them.
Where do we go after that?

amacachi

Deleted User wrote: »

For social welfare, can they not leave the base €188 as it is, but heavily cut everything else?

Everyone that's on JSB or JSA is getting the €188, so would it not make sense to leave that alone, and then hammer the shite out of rent allowance and child-related payments and such, so the Joe Soap that's just trying to get by won't be hit as hard as Mary and her 17 kids?

Or is that illogial?

I'd much rather see them cut it for single people than families tbh.

Turpentine

Biggins wrote: »

Of course these next cuts will be 'leaked' to us over the coming months yet again as to drip feed us all slowly into compliance and non-surprise yet again for the official day of announcement.

The old "Boiling Frog" tactic again.

No, what they do is drip feed a 10% reduction in "X".

Then when the time comes, they announce an 8% reduction in "X" and everyone goes "Jesus, we were lucky there".

Biggins

Turpentine wrote: »

No, what they do is drip feed a 10% reduction in "X".

Then when the time comes, they announce an 8% reduction in "X" and everyone goes "Jesus, we were lucky there".

I agree, thats another well known and used tactic.
One that was all too commonly used in the latter years of FF alone and their last few budgets.

later12

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Would they be brave enough to introduce phased reductions in welfare payments to the long term young unemployed?

Explain your use of the term 'young', and why any reductions would be 'brave', please?

Killer Pigeon

All to keep those cute little bondholders snuggled up beside the fire during the cold winter months with their infinite supply of wine and mince-pies. Aww, they're adorable, aren't they?

Turpentine

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

All to keep those cute little bondholders snuggled up beside the fire with their infinite supply of wine and mince-pies. Aww, they're adorable, aren't they?

Do bondholders celebrate Christmas all year round? Actually it must feel like that.

Tehachapi

This is just what I was looking forward to after hearing about a 22% increase in bord gais prices and a new "household charge" whatever that's supposed to mean.

oppenheimer1

later10 wrote: »

Explain your use of the term 'young', and why any reductions would be 'brave', please?

Young, I guess would be those who are of a retrainable age. A 55 year old made unemployed really its game over for them unfortunately so cutting their welfare or someone like them would only tip them into poverty with no genuine way of escaping it either by finding a new occupation or emigrating.

It would be brave as it would be Labour pursuing a policy which singles out for attack a core vote of theirs, the working class. A disenfranchised youth is also dangerous and an uneducated one is easy to radicalise.

Biggins

Tehachapi wrote: »

This is just what I was looking forward to after hearing about a 22% increase in bord gais prices and a new "household charge" whatever that's supposed to mean.

...Don't forget about the water charge too! ...O' and the increase in carbox tax...

...And whatever else they can dream up next, just an an official excuse to get more out of us!

"...But... but its all for the good of the nation" - Hello mate! We ARE the fcuking nation - and we are being screwed, repeated raped for our few remaining euros!
The governments must think we are able then, to pull them out of our ass as they continue to bugger us!

Irish Slaves for Europe

Kojak wrote: »

They are going to reduce peoples tax credits/tax bands which will bring people into higer tax brackets sooner (as long as they are working), yet the government expects the public to go out and spend more cash in the local econeomy to get the country going again.

That's daft, tbh. What this will do, imo, will make people even less likely to spend any disposable income and keep saving it for the even rainier days that are down the track

People are already only buying the basics at the moment and will continue to do so until there are signs of a strong recovery in the rest of Europe and the US. If the government were to lower taxes it would have virtually no effect on peoples spending habits at the moment. The only way for the government to get more money out of us is by raising taxes. If anything increasing the tax take by 1.5bn isn't enough, considering the government is spending 20bn a year more than they are taking in.

oppenheimer1

Biggins wrote: »

...In that case we are bolloxed. Plain and simple.

If Joe Soap had €100 in his pocket and for him to live per week costs €100 BARE MINIMUM - then the government says they want another tenner per week off everyone...
...What then?
...And many, many have reached that point and far more are gone beyond it, to broke now.

I hear what your saying oppenheimer1, and I agree a lot but as another saying goes "you can't get blood from a stone" - and many have reached the point of having nothing but possibly stones in their pockets to fill them.
Where do we go after that?

You can't get blood from a stone I agree, but it is impossible to set a tax system that allows everyone to contribute what they can afford unless you have a custom tax rate for each individual. A young single male such as myself, although I don't earn a huge amount, could afford the €600 increase thats coming while I can appreciate that a parent on the same wage could struggle. Everyones circumstances are different and it is a sad reality that some will fall off the treadmill and find themselves mired in debt and poverty. There is nothing we can do about that though, when we spend more than we earn. At least I've yet to hear of a credible alternative.

Its an impossible task the government has, choosing not the best option, but the least worse one.

chasm

Biggins wrote: »

...Don't forget about the water charge too! ...O' and the increase in carbox tax...

...And whatever else they can dream up next, just an an official excuse to get more out of us!

"...But... but its all for the good of the nation" - Hello mate! We ARE the fcuking nation - and we are being screwed, repeated raped for our few remaining euros!
The governments must think we are able then, to pull them out of our ass as they continue to bugger us!

Don't forget the VAT increases signalled for 2013 and 2014

Biggins

In reality what I can see happening, will be like the last recession - and I lived through that hell period.
(It ravaged my close family personally as well as friends/relatives.)

* The black market 'cash in hand' jobs will increase yet again.
* Business will continue to collapse.
* Single school books will yet again have to be shared between two students per two desks.
* People WILL NOT spend what little they have hidden away from the state.
* Very few will be willing to re-take the chance of buying property.
* Petty crime might increase significantly.
...Etc.

---

Oppenheimer1, part of the coming problem is that even many, many more are going to try and get out of the country - and right now the percentages are already high doing that (and its only going to get higher) - so whats left of the youth alone to rape donate to the nation, will be even smaller in numbers thus smaller in contribution!

Chucky the tree

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

All to keep those cute little bondholders snuggled up beside the fire during the cold winter months with their infinite supply of wine and mince-pies. Aww, they're adorable, aren't they?

Yes, I mean none of it is needed for our €20bn budget deficit becuase of our ridiculous social welfare payments or crazy public sector wages. :rolleyes:

123balltv

Feed Ireland
make it a better kip
for me and joe soap
lets give us a second chance ........... come on Diana Ross, Tina Turner,
Lionel Richie etc

it's gettin worse

oppenheimer1

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes, I mean none of it is needed for our €20bn budget deficit becuase of our ridiculous social welfare payments or crazy public sector wages. :rolleyes:

These "bondholders" are an easy faceless target, but you're right the problems are much closer to home. A generous welfare system that people have come to depend on and an over paid and under appreciative public service.

@ Biggins

The last census showed that our population has a birthrate that will keep the population steady and 300,000 more people ther than expected so the flight of the youth is somewhat overstated. That said anecdotally, of my university educated friends, most have left at this stage. In fact thinking about it most of the people that have remained were the ones that didnt go to third level and are now wasting away on the dole. The loss of our graduates is a serious problem I agree though.

People became accustomed to a lifestyle and made commitments on wage expectations not befitting of their chosen occupations compared to western norms. Its a sorry tale and its sad to see people broken by their own bad decisions and those of others. But as I said, I don't see an alternative to this or at least one that is credible.

Biggins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

@ Biggins

The last census showed that our population has a birthrate that will keep the population steady and 300,000 more people ther than expected so the flight of the youth is somewhat overstated. That said anecdotally, of my university educated friends, most have left at this stage. In fact thinking about it most of the people that have remained were the ones that didnt go to third level and are now wasting away on the dole. The loss of our graduates is a serious problem I agree though.

People became accustomed to a lifestyle and made commitments on wage expectations not befitting of their chosen occupations compared to western norms. Its a sorry tale and its sad to see people broken by their own bad decisions and those of others. But as I said, I don't see an alternative to this or at least one that is credible.

As regards the current birth rate, it might be steady but a child born in the last few years since alone the economy depression began, will not really become a possible wage earning, productive force until a good few years to come - in the meantime there is a gap of a good few years where significant stalemate/limbo (for want of a better phrase) lies - and as you know, we need the money now, not be hanging around till that section of growing youth also catch-up with the rest of those willing to become employed.

As for those emigrating, there will be always those that will stay (fair play to them!) but as things get harder - and they will for sure - rather than 5 out of ten staying before, I can foresee as what happened before, that ratio will increase to 7/8 going out of ten. Of the possible remainder, 1 might decide to sit on the dole while another 1/2 will at least try to look for work but sadly find few opportunities.
(I'm only going on experience and times of the previous past, 70s & early 80s)

later12

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Young, I guess would be those who are of a retrainable age. A 55 year old made unemployed really its game over for them

No.

I see no reason to disbelieve that there are 55 year old jobseekers out there who would take up employment were it available to them. These individuals enjoy the benefit of anti-discrimination legislation in this regard.

Again I shall ask you to describe the term young specifically, and to explain why any infractions foisted upon the young would be 'brave'?

Paully D

It doesn't matter to the government because they'll be saying to themselves "ah sure the Irish won't put up a fight", and they're sadly right.

People will moan and whinge but won't take any action.

Take a leaf out of the French and Greeks books and riot! They'd soon get the message.

bizmark

YES! they will get the message...And then go ahead and do it anyway so in reality all your doing is being a yob and destroying peoples property good job that will show em

ilovesleep

This news doesn't come to much of a surprise for me but most of these cost saving measures are simply going to lead to more unemployment. What then?

Why are the prisons run like holiday camps? What kind of savings can be made by reforming them into prisons? What kind of savings can be made by reforming the justice system? Like keeping the prisons for criminals and not for the likes of one who can't pay for a tv licence.
I'm sure there are many more sectors that is overbulging with sh1t that could save this state money. Like the RSA needs overhaul. The HSE is too fat behind the scenes.

bizmark wrote: »

YES! they will get the message...And then go ahead and do it anyway so in reality all your doing is being a yob and destroying peoples property good job that will show em

Now he didn't say riot on dublin. Riots on the ECB building will be more like it not that I am advocating it.

ilovesleep

For the majority of people their biggest expenditure would be a mortgage or rent. I don't see any other way out from the hole ireland finds its self in except for people with celtic tiger mortgages to go about extending their mortgages so that they have less to pay off every month but over a longer period therefore leaving a little disposable income. This would also help at preventing insanity on a grand scale. One can simply not live just to work just to pay bills and nothing but bills and nothing else for life.

Biggins

Paully D wrote: »

It doesn't matter to the government because they'll be saying to themselves "ah sure the Irish won't put up a fight", and they're sadly right.

People will moan and whinge but won't take any action.

Take a leaf out of the French and Greeks books and riot none stop protest! They'd soon get the message.

With the small changes above, I agree.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Deleted User wrote: »

won't be hit as hard as Mary and her 17 kids?

Or is that illogial?

They probably visit the local constituency office and complain about the cut or ring into joe complaining about struggle or some td will see to have that cut "ringfenced".

Also think we might have a croke park agreement mark II to avoid a strike.

RichieC

I think it's shocking that a foreign ideological (neo liberal) political organisation can dictate our budget to us..

amacachi

RichieC wrote: »

I think it's shocking that a foreign ideological (neo liberal) political organisation can dictate our budget to us..

Or we could've ya know, made 30-40% cuts in expenditure overnight.