need some good Advice on a personal matter

s.duffy

I wish to open a discussion in relation to being totally offended after reading an article on The Equality Authority website in relation to the Gender Recognition Advisory Group report that where issued by the Minister for Social Protection, Joan Burton TD on the 14th July 2011, whereby it is mentioned that people who are medically diagnosed of suffering with a medical condition none as “GID” Gender Identity Disorder are being classified as being transgendered, which is both false and misleading the general public in to believing that what’s the Equality Authority publicised is true,


I were diagnosed back in 2001 with “GID” Gender Identity Disorder and since then have commenced on hormonal medication, and am at present awaiting to undergo full “GRS” Gender Reassignment Surgery, but before I was diagnosed with “GID,” I first had to be referred from my “GP” general practitioner to undergo medical assessment by a clinical psychologist to where I was completely eliminated from suffering with any form of mental, sexual or fetish disorder/illness. Before being referred to a qualified gender specialist, to where I had to be further eliminated from such mental, sexual or fetish disorders/illnesses, before being medically diagnosed of suffering with Gender Identity Disorder.


But Within all my three diagnoses letters which I received from being medically diagnosed by three qualified gender specialist, within the past ten years, it does not mention once within any of my diagnosed letters that I were or suffer with any forum of transgender or transsexual identity disorder,



People who refer to them self’s as being transgendered are people who not only self-diagnose them self’s as wanting to live their lives within their preferred gender weather that be male. Female, both or nether, do not wish to be medically diagnosed by a qualified gender specialist, do not wish to commence on any hormonal medication, and do not wish to undergo and forum of “GRS” Gender Reassignment Surgery,


Whereas people who were medically diagnosed with “GID” Gender Identity Disorder are medically diagnosed by one or more qualified gender specialist, do commence on hormonal medication, are under the care of the medical professions, and do wish to undergo full “GRS” Gender Reassignment Surgery,


Although I am very aware that there is a small majority of people living in Ireland who after being medically diagnosed with “GID” prefer to classify them self’s as being transgendered, which would leave a question mark to why they do so, there is a more vase majority of people, which includes oneself, who do not corresponded with such terminology words such as transgender/transsexual, and therefore use the right terminology word that we were medically diagnosed with,


To my knowledge the Equality Authority were set up to protect people from being discriminated against under the nine grounds of discrimination, but if the Equality Authority keep referring to people who were medically diagnosed of suffering with GID” Gender Identity Disorder which I will state very clearly, has knotting to do with transgender people, whereby “GID” is medical and transgendered is a non-medical condition, then this its self is a forum of discrimination against the very people to who the Equality Authority are trying to protect in the first place, and therefore, are asking would one have a legal case brought against the Equality Authority for their false and misleading the general public in relation to such matters not alone the damages and stress they are causing to people like myself and alike of being classified as being something we are not, never were and never will be,

MagicSean

Are people with GID not just a subgroup of people who are transgender. Transgender is an all encompassing term which includes people who choose to be a different sex as well as people who are medically so. That's my understanding anyway.

In any case I am not sure where GID would fit under equality act. It is a medical condition and not really something that could be counted as a sexual orientation.

Have you written to the Equality Authority and suggested they change it?

s.duffy

Yes, I have written a letter of complaint to the Equality Authority, but never received a reply, I also wrote to another organisation in relation to such matter, and they them self’s did the same some months ago, but they never replied to them either, and all they could say is best of luck, which isn’t much of a help when people like myself are having to endure as being treated as a transgender person, when the truth is I am not transgender, which is why im asking people on the board, if there's anything within the Law that I could put a stop to their false and misleading comments,

Tom Young

Do you want to continue with this thread OP? ... You've given enough information here to be identified if a case was to run. Your call, but if you are taking this seriously you might PM me.

s.duffy

And for the record, I did speak to FLAC about this issue, but FLAC seem to use the same terminology words as the Equality Authority do by classifying people who were medically diagnosed with “GID” as being transgender, and although they admit that the know they are offending people with such words, they still use the same dame word, which is a joke,


I think my only option in relation to this matter is to write a letter to the European court of human rights and outline the situation in relation to these so-called human rights organisation, and then send a copy of such letter to the media and publicly humiliate them all,

s.duffy

s.duffy wrote: »

I think my only option in relation to this matter is to write a letter to the European court of human rights and outline the situation in relation to these so-called human rights organisation, and then send a copy of such letter to the media and publicly humiliate them all,

Like any Court the European Court of Human Rights don't reply to letters addressed to it. I think you are going from step 1 to step 10 without taking any of the appropriate steps in between. How are your human rights being effected?

FWIW I agree with Tom, given the amount of info you've given if you ever took a Court case you're very easily identified here so perhaps best to simply leave this be within the ambit of this forum?

s.duffy

Hi Kayroo,
Well firstly, If I take a case to court, then my identity is going to be knowing any way because I will be in the spot light of the media, so therefore it makes no differences one way or the other,


Secondly, you asked how are my rights being effected, well by accusing a person medically diagnosed with “GID” as being transgendered, is the same as accusing a person medically diagnosed with “OCD” Obsessive-compulsive disorder as being transgendered, when the truth is its not, it’s a medical disorder, just like “GID” is, and the differences between the word medical and Trans is that. Medical is where a person is treated by doctors who suffer with health issues within a hospital, whereas transgender are belonging to the Trans community, which are organisations that support transvestites, cross-dresser and act: which are all forums of sexual fetishes,


I bet you a pound to a penny if you went to a hospital suffering with a health issue and where instead treated by the doctors as having some form of fetish condition, you would be the first person to run to your solicitor to sue the hospital for wrongfully diagnosing and treatment your health condition as a fetish condition,

s.duffy

s.duffy wrote: »

Hi Kayroo,
Well firstly, If I take a case to court, then my identity is going to be knowing any way because I will be in the spot light of the media, so therefore it makes no differences one way or the other

You could have it heard in camera perhaps given the circumstances.

Secondly, you asked how are my rights being effected, well by accusing a person medically diagnosed with “GID” as being transgendered, is the same as accusing a person medically diagnosed with “OCD” Obsessive-compulsive disorder as being transgendered, when the truth is its not, it’s a medical disorder, just like “GID” is, and the differences between the word medical and Trans is that.

The highlighted part is wrong. OCD diagnosed persons do not have materially similar outward symptoms to transgendered individuals. From some reading I have done on the subject and a conversation with a medical friend of mine it appears to me that there is a HUGE crossover between transgendered individuals and sufferers of GID or Gender Dysphoria. There is also no agreement among medical professionals about whether GID is a mental or medical issue and to categorise GID as being an accepted medical issue is incorrect. Certainly some major medical bodies recognise it as such but there is serious debate on the issue.

I bet you a pound to a penny if you went to a hospital suffering with a health issue and where instead treated by the doctors as having some form of fetish condition, you would be the first person to run to your solicitor to sue the hospital for wrongfully diagnosing and treatment your health condition as a fetish condition,

There's no point in engaging in ad hominem argument as the broad scenario outlined above does not outline any specifics. Needless to say it's a rather pointless debate anyway.

Reloc8

You can't litigate your case on an internet forum.

You are seeking legal advice.

You should go to a solicitor.

FreudianSlippers

Agreed, I also agree that there is probably way too much info in the OP. I propose to delete it unless the OP has objections

rainbow kirby

Thread reopened. Do not provide legal advice on-thread.

s.duffy

Ok, without going in to greater details in relation to this subject, I came on to this board and put forwards a serious issue that’s causing people like myself to be left to endure of being slandered with offensive remarks being made by certain organisation, whereby accusing people who were medically diagnosed with “GID” Gender Identity Disorder as being referred to being transgendered, which to me and all other people I personally know who themselves were medically diagnosed, all classify it as being a genuine medical condition, despite what the “DSM-V” report has to state,


There are three MD Consultant Psychiatrist who are Qualified Gender Specialist true out the whole of Ireland to who medically diagnosed around 300 or more people of suffering with such disorder, does this mean that just because the “DSM-V” are right in what they state, that theses MD Consultant Psychiatrist have wrongfully diagnosed 300 or more people of suffering with the wrong diagnoses, whereby instead of medical, it should of being mental,



The “DSM-V” is just a piece of **** paper that were written by a group of Psychiatrists and psychologists who personally can’t make up their own mind whether “GID” is a medical or mental disorder, just the same way for years on end they treated people who were Gay as being mentally insane, on till one day they decided to change their point of view and go in favour of Gay people in relation to classify them as having a non- mental condition,



There are many European and non- European countries that don’t give a **** what the “DSM-V” have to say, and instead go their own way, just like when Pope Benedict XVI's declared that saving humanity from homosexuality was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction, did any government true out the world do what Pope Benedict XVI’s had asked off, of course they didn’t, and why should they,



anyway, when people in Ireland need legal advice in relation to feeling that they are being discriminated against, they look to the Equality Authority for help, but I’m my case I can’t do that because the Equality Authorities are accusing people with “GID” as being transgendered/transsexual, which is both false and misleading the general public in to believing that what they say is the truth,


When the Irish government set up the “GRAG” Gender Recognition Advisory Group, the Equality Authority gave a submission to such Advisory Group which stated the following:


“The terms of reference of the Gender Recognition Advisory Group address primarily the particular experience of those who wish to live permanently in the gender different from that assigned to them, by law, at birth. The Group uses the term ‘transsexual’ to describe such persons. While there is some debate as to the appropriate terminology to be used in this context, for the purposes of this submission, the Authority intends to adopt the terminology preferred by the Advisory Group. In particular, this paper will refer to persons who wish to live permanently in a gender different from that assigned as birth, and to gain legal and social recognition of their acquired gender, as ‘transsexual’.


Since the “GRAG” report were realised to the public on the 14th July 2011, the Equality Authority to this present day are continuing to refer to people with “GID” as being transgendered/transsexual, which just goes to prove a point to my case whereby the Equality Authority don’t seem to have grasped that the rightful terminology to which the Irish Government are now classifying people with being “GID” is the rightful terminology word to use,


Personally speaking, I have knotting against transgender people or against the trans community for that matter and wish them the very best of luck in whatever way they wish to choose to live their lives, but why on God’s name are these Trans community organisation so reluctant to brand people who are suffering with “GID” who don’t belong to their organisations, with the same terminology that they wish to be classified as,


After I return home from have my full “GRS” Gender Reassignment Surgery, I will no longer be classified as having “GID” by Law, and will therefore be seen as just a normal woman, living a normal live, just like any other woman on the face of the earth, but in the eyes of the trans community, they want the general public to brand people like myself as being transgendered for the rest of our entire live, which is why I would love someone to explain to me why the Equality Authority and Trans organisation are so determined to have their way,


I wish that Tran’s communities would just have a little respect for people, who were diagnosed with “GID” by not classifying us with their own terminology words, for they are confusing the general public in to believing that we are all classified under the same brush,

stephen_n

The DSM I, II, & III all classified homosexuality as a disorder, something which I'm fairly sure most gay people would find fairly offensive. I am a bit confused and maybe I'm picking you up wrong but why exactly do you want to be classified as suffering from a disorder? As you say the DSM is just a piece of paper or rather a very crude device to pidgeon hole people into broad categories for treatment so why should it be recognised as a gender identity?

FreudianSlippers

stephen_n wrote: »

The DSM I, II, & III all classified homosexuality as a disorder, something which I'm fairly sure most gay people would find fairly offensive. I am a bit confused and maybe I'm picking you up wrong but why exactly do you want to be classified as suffering from a disorder? As you say the DSM is just a piece of paper or rather a very crude device to pidgeon hole people into broad categories for treatment so why should it be recognised as a gender identity?

I and II did, but it was taken out in 1974ish before III was out in 1980.

The only thing that remains AFAIK is egodystonic homosexuality, which (if I'm understanding it correctly) is correctly listed in IV as not necessarily being a psychiatric disorder, but being an issue relating to one... perhaps correctly so as it relates greatly to self-image moreso than sexuality.

I should say that I could be totally wrong... I've never researched this matter at all before this thread started in my forum and now I'm totally interested, so if I'm wrong I'm wrong so be gentle :P

s.duffy

Hi Stephen


The DSM I, II, & III all did classified homosexuality as a mental disorder, which I would truly believe that gay people would of found very offensive to be classified as having a mental condition/illness, but as I stated in my last post, the “DSM” removed it as being classified as being a mental condition/illness, which is why people born with “GID” are also offensive towards being classified within the “DSM” Manual as being seen as having a mental condition/illness,


Gay people true out the world didn’t wake up one day and decided “oh I want to be Gay”, no person choses to be Gay, just the same as a person suffering with “GID” they were just born that way, and when I say born, I don’t mean when their mother gave birth to them, I mean when they were still only a fetus within their mother’s womb,



But getting back to your question: “quote” why exactly do you want to be classified as suffering from a disorder? Well “GID” Gender Identity Disorder is a Congenital Neurobiological Condition which is classified as being a Disorder; it is a condition existing at or often before birth that develops during the first month of life, which involves defects in or damage to a developing fetus.


Congenital mean: diseases or problems with the body that is present at birth. Congenital problems are commonly referred to as "birth defects". These problems may be genetic, caused by difficulties during pregnancy or the cause may not be known. Congenital problems can range from very minor to severe and life-threatening.


Neurobiological means: the branch of biology that deals with the anatomy and physiology and pathology of the nervous system


You often heard people who suffer with “GID” stating that they knew from any early child age that they were born in to the wrong body, and although there’s not much knowing in to the full content of “GID” , what medical science has proven is that children from an early age in live had their brain scanned and it where discovered that such children’s physical brain structures resembled their desired sex, “meaning” the opposite sex to which they were born, years before being medically diagnosed with “GID” not alone commencing on any forum of hormonal treatment,


As for the second question: “quote” why should it be recognised as a gender identity, well Gender Identity is the way in which an individual identifies with a gender category, for example, as being either male or female, but when a person strongly feels that they were born in to the wrong gender identity, the word Disorder follows the word identity which is where the word “GID” Gender Identity Disorder, comes from, The Disorder is the part I explained within the first question,


While I’m writing this, I also want to mention in relation to a response made by “ Kayrro” where they stated: There is also no agreement among medical professionals about whether GID is a mental or medical issue and to categorise GID as being an accepted medical issue:



Well Kayrro: after I researched what you stated on the board, I found the following: GID is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM and by the DSM-IV TR; it is likely that the new version of the DSM will replace this category with "Gender Dysphoria. Which now goes to show that were ever you got your information from were wrong. Because the “ICD-10 CM” and by the “DSM-IV TR” refer to“GID” as a medial disorder,

stephen_n

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I and II did, but it was taken out in 1974ish before III was out in 1980.

The only thing that remains AFAIK is egodystonic homosexuality, which (if I'm understanding it correctly) is correctly listed in IV as not necessarily being a psychiatric disorder, but being an issue relating to one... perhaps correctly so as it relates greatly to self-image moreso than sexuality.

I should say that I could be totally wrong... I've never researched this matter at all before this thread started in my forum and now I'm totally interested, so if I'm wrong I'm wrong so be gentle :P

Well I'm basing my information on the classification being in it up until IV on what my psychopathology lecturer told us as I am remiss to be bothered reading the DSM IV let alone any of it's predecessors as I find it lacking in any sort of humanity to broadly group people together based on supposedly similar "Symptoms" or as I would prefer characteristics.

OP I think Shakespeare probably said it best. "what is in a name, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

Links234

s.duffy wrote: »

People who refer to them self’s as being transgendered are people who not only self-diagnose them self’s as wanting to live their lives within their preferred gender weather that be male. Female, both or nether, do not wish to be medically diagnosed by a qualified gender specialist, do not wish to commence on any hormonal medication, and do not wish to undergo and forum of “GRS” Gender Reassignment Surgery,

You talk about the equality commission misleading the public, but I identify as transgender and what you have written here is a pack of lies. I have been diagnosed by professionals, I've started HRT as of March this year, and characterizing me and others who identify as transgender as not wanting to physically transition is what is what is truly misleading here. And your multiple comments about transgender/transsexual people being sexual fetishists are utterly deplorable.

Lets get something straight here, whether you like it or not "transsexual" is the proper terminology, and Gender Identity Disorder is merely a psychiatric classification, but they describe the same thing. In just about every scientific and medical study that's been done on the subject of the physical nature of what the psychiatric community call "GID", it is transsexual/transsexuality that is used. Don't believe me?

Transsexual Gene Link Identified
Study In Transsexuals: Significant Genetic Link To Gender Identity
Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality
White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study

...and so on.

You are not describing something different, GID/Transsexuality are different terminology for the same condition. Look up the definition of the word transsexual if you need any further proof. You gain nothing by splitting hairs on this matter, you just confuse these issues further and hurt and stigmatize people who identify as transgender or transsexual.

And slandering transgender communities and organizations as being purely for sexual fetishists is downright reprehensible. The Transgender Equality Network Ireland do a lot of good work, and the numerous trans support groups around the country, who offer support and advice for people struggling through many of the same issues that no doubt you and I have gone through. If you don't want to identify as trans, that's your business, I prefer to identify as transgender rather than transsexual myself, and I certainly wouldn't like parading around saying I have "gender identity disorder" because the way I see it, I don't have an identity disorder, I know exactly who and what I am.

How you want to identity is up to you, but you don't gain legitimacy by throwing everyone else under the bus!

deirdre_dub

I've been diagnosed with GID, I'm going through medical transition, and I identify as transgendered. And I am far, far, far from in the minority. Actually, I believe I am in the majority.

I strongly object to having to declare myself technically mentally ill before I can access the healthcare I need. And, I have a huge problem with the "GID" diagnosis, for a very simple reason, namely that I do not have a fscking disorder. The "disorder" part of "GID" is a social judgement - society needs the "order" of there being just two genders, and anything outside of that is therefore classed as a "disorder". It isn't a disorder - it is part of the nature of gender. Hence I distance myself from the "GID" term as far as I possibly can, in protest at being called "disordered" by society.

The term "transgender" has no such judgements associated with it, and is hence, by a very very long margin, the preferred term.

s.duffy

Now hold on one God dame minute here, let me understand clearly what you are all stating for all the thousands of viewers that visit this board on a weekly bases, you say you were diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, but yet you are calming to be Transgendered, well if that’s the case, then I appal you for making such comments, for this is exactly what I have being trying to state to the public in relation to using the wrong terminology,


During an interview on Ireland AM on the 19th July last. Tran’s activists and educators Cat McIlroy stated very clearly on live television that a transgender person is a person who doesn’t identify as being neither male nor female, but is in-between, and when asked what in-between meant, she refused to answer, which to me would class someone who are Transgendered as being some forum of cross-dresser, whereby they identify as dressing and living as one gender, but have the physical structure of the opposite gender,



so by you all coming on to this board and stating that you are transgendered, you are then classifying yourself as being neither male nor female, as” LINK345” “quote” GID/Transsexuality are different terminology for the same condition, So therefore you should be all classifying yourself as being Transsexual instead of Transgendered, which bring a serious question on how you were all medically diagnosed of suffering with Gender Identity Disorder if you claim to be Transgendered, for no qualified gender specialist would medially diagnosed a transgendered person with a “GID” diagnoses letter,

I also would like to say, If you don’t like the terminology “GID” because you don’t have a disorder, then why the **** did you get diagnosed in the first place, go back to your doctors and tell them you don’t have a disorder and that your transgendered, and see what happens, this is the problem with people like you, using the diagnoses of “GID” to get what you want, when you are really the opposite in life,


GID/Transsexual is different terminology for the same condition:


Transsexual/Transgender is different terminology for two completely separate conditions,

L.Jenkins

s.duffy wrote: »

Now hold on one God dame minute here,

Why not keep it civil.

s.duffy wrote: »

let me understand clearly what you are all stating for all the thousands of viewers that visit this board on a weekly bases, you say you were diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, but yet you are calming to be Transgendered, well if that’s the case, then I appal you for making such comments, for this is exactly what I have being trying to state to the public in relation to using the wrong terminology.

And secondly, I would regard Transgender as a umbrella term to cover the entire spectrum of gender variance. So instead of stating you're a Cross Dresser or Drag queen, you could just say you're Trangender.

Links234

s.duffy wrote: »

Now hold on one God dame minute here, let me understand clearly what you are all stating for all the thousands of viewers that visit this board on a weekly bases, you say you were diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, but yet you are calming to be Transgendered, well if that’s the case, then I appal you for making such comments, for this is exactly what I have being trying to state to the public in relation to using the wrong terminology,

You "appal" me for making such comments?

I hate to pick at anyone's spelling, but I really can't understand what you are saying here.

s.duffy wrote: »

During an interview on Ireland AM on the 19th July last. Tran’s activists and educators Cat McIlroy stated very clearly on live television that a transgender person is a person who doesn’t identify as being neither male nor female, but is in-between, and when asked what in-between meant, she refused to answer, which to me would class someone who are Transgendered as being some forum of cross-dresser, whereby they identify as dressing and living as one gender, but have the physical structure of the opposite gender,

The interview is right here and that is not what Cat said: http://www.tv3.ie/ireland_am.php?video=38034&locID=1.65.74

s.duffy wrote: »

so by you all coming on to this board and stating that you are transgendered, you are then classifying yourself as being neither male nor female, as” LINK345” “quote” GID/Transsexuality are different terminology for the same condition, So therefore you should be all classifying yourself as being Transsexual instead of Transgendered, which bring a serious question on how you were all medically diagnosed of suffering with Gender Identity Disorder if you claim to be Transgendered, for no qualified gender specialist would medially diagnosed a transgendered person with a “GID” diagnoses letter,

No, I'm not classifying myself as being neither male nor female. I'm a woman, I'm female, and I'm transgender. When I came out, I told people that I was transgender, and they knew what that meant. They didn't think it meant I was some cross-dresser/fetishist, like you seem to think the word means.

And I'm pretty sure I've used the word transgender with medical professionals plenty of times, and when I was getting a diagnosis of GID, it was with Dr. Kelly who's a member of WPATH, the World Professional Organization for Transgender Health. The literature that I got for my GP from the NHS was about dealing with transgender patients. None of the medical professionals I've seen have had any issue with the word, and I also know people who've gone to see Dr. Curtis in London; www.transhealth.co.uk and it says right there on the first page, "The London Gender Clinic is the largest private transgender clinic."

s.duffy wrote: »

I also would like to say, If you don’t like the terminology “GID” because you don’t have a disorder, then why the **** did you get diagnosed in the first place, go back to your doctors and tell them you don’t have a disorder and that your transgendered, and see what happens, this is the problem with people like you, using the diagnoses of “GID” to get what you want, when you are really the opposite in life,

"people like you" nice... really nice. :rolleyes:

it's awful that you feel the need to step on everyone else's identities in order to legitimize yourself

sjcromwell

Deleted User wrote: »

You could have it heard in camera perhaps given the circumstances.




The highlighted part is wrong. OCD diagnosed persons do not have materially similar outward symptoms to transgendered individuals. From some reading I have done on the subject and a conversation with a medical friend of mine it appears to me that there is a HUGE crossover between transgendered individuals and sufferers of GID or Gender Dysphoria. There is also no agreement among medical professionals about whether GID is a mental or medical issue and to categorise GID as being an accepted medical issue is incorrect. Certainly some major medical bodies recognise it as such but there is serious debate on the issue.




Whilst there may be some disagreement amongst some reluctant and prejudiced members of the medical community as to whether GID/GD is a medical (clinical) condition, there is no doubt about it's acceptance. So you are quite as wrong as you are ill-informed on this matter, which is all too typical of those who speak loudest on this issue, but who conveniently ignore the facts that don't fit in with their preferred individualistic views. Gender Identity Disorder/Gender Dysphoria is a well recognised and well documented congential neurobiological condition and is wholly distinct from the various "trans" conditions that cause so much of the prevailing confusion.

As one diagnosed with GID, I have no problem whatsoever with the term, as it does describe a clear misalignment (disorder) between the individual's gender identity and that indicated by their physical gender/sex indicators. This problem is resolved through Genital Realignment Surgery and other treatments, which means the person need no longer refer to his or herself as GID/GD, just as they would having been treated for any other clinical condition.

In all my dealings with the various psychiatrists and clinical psychologists who have diagnosed and treated me, I have never once been referred to as having a mental illness. In fact, mental illness is regarded as a contra-indicator of GID/GD. My diagnosis has never been regarded or treated as a mental disorder. This is a matter of medical and LEGAL record.

People really should refrain from putting opinions forward opinions that are ill-informed and seriously innacurate.

deirdre_dub

s.duffy wrote: »

Now hold on one God dame minute here, let me understand clearly what you are all stating for all the thousands of viewers that visit this board on a weekly bases, you say you were diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, but yet you are calming to be Transgendered, well if that’s the case, then I appal you for making such comments, for this is exactly what I have being trying to state to the public in relation to using the wrong terminology

That is your "wrong terminology" - as far as I and many many many others are concerned, it is the right terminology.

During an interview on Ireland AM on the 19th July last. Tran’s activists and educators Cat McIlroy stated very clearly on live television that a transgender person is a person who doesn’t identify as being neither male nor female, but is in-between, and when asked what in-between meant, she refused to answer, which to me would class someone who are Transgendered as being some forum of cross-dresser, whereby they identify as dressing and living as one gender, but have the physical structure of the opposite gender

I know Cat personally, and ze identifies hirself as transgendered. Ze isn't a "crossdresser" - rather, ze "falls between genders".

Likewise, I identify myself as transgendered. Obviously, my experience of my transgendered-ness has differences to Cat's experience, but it is transgendered nontheless.

so by you all coming on to this board and stating that you are transgendered, you are then classifying yourself as being neither male nor female

I believe I've been quite clear from the outset how I identify myself. In case you still don't get it - I identify firstly as human, secondly as female, and thirdly as transgender female.

no qualified gender specialist would medially diagnosed a transgendered person with a “GID” diagnoses letter

WRONG! I've been diagnosed with GID by my counsellor (in consultation with a gender specialist), by a clinical psychologist AND by a clinical psychiatrist. That's THREE DIAGNOSES that all agree that I have GID.

I also would like to say, If you don’t like the terminology “GID” because you don’t have a disorder, then why the **** did you get diagnosed in the first place

Because I HAD TO IN ORDER TO ACCESS HORMONES!

go back to your doctors and tell them you don’t have a disorder and that your transgendered, and see what happens, this is the problem with people like you, using the diagnoses of “GID” to get what you want, when you are really the opposite in life

I am not disordered - I am normal - if you aren't, then that is your business.

GID/Transsexual is different terminology for the same condition:


Transsexual/Transgender is different terminology for two completely separate conditions,

You, of course, may identify whatever way you want. If you want to see yourself as disordered, then that is your business. But don't tell me how I should identify myself.

You do not get to tell me who and what I am - I get to tell you who and what I am.

deirdre_dub

sjcromwell wrote: »

As one diagnosed with GID, I have no problem whatsoever with the term, as it does describe a clear misalignment (disorder) between the individual's gender identity and that indicated by their physical gender/sex indicators.

Umm - GID is a disorder of the person's gender identity.

Personally speaking, my gender identity is just fine, thank you. The problem isn't my gender identity - it is that my gender identity is incongruent with my body.

This problem is resolved through Genital Realignment Surgery and other treatments

If the fix involves changing the body, then why is it that the gender identity is considered to be "disordered"?

sjcromwell

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Umm - GID is a disorder of the person's gender identity.


If the fix involves changing the body, then why is it that the gender identity is considered to be "disordered"?

The answer lies in your own question had you the willingness to see it and accept it.

Frankly I find the overwhelming majority of people who take the "trans" approach to this whole debate as unwilling to deal with the concrete facts about GID/GD, and they demonstrate the clearest bias towards being as vague and non-commital as they can possibly be. But it is for them to answer for this. I on the other hand have better and more worthy and far more positive and constructive things to do with my time.

The only thing worse than the deliberate vagueness and wilful ignorance shown towards GID/GD is, those politically correct groups and individuals who do not take the time to acquaint themselves with the facts about his condition and thereby fail to deal with the issues on that basis. This is why I rarely get involved in these discussion; they invariably generate more heat than light.

As the proverb correctly states: "there are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

s.duffy

You want to know something “deirdre_dub” no matter how many times you try declare that you are transgendered, the truth of the matter is that you’re not, for you are really “GID” a person with a disorder, and do you want to know how I know that, because your three diagnoses letters prove it, you were diagnosed of suffering with a disorder, whether you like it or not,


And as you said “You do not get to tell me who and what I am” well I don’t have to “deirdre_dub” because your diagnoses letters disclose the truth,

deirdre_dub

sjcromwell wrote: »

The answer lies in your own question had you the willingness to see it and accept it.

:rolleyes:

What makes you think I don't have that willingness? Maybe I'm just fscking stupid? I don't suppose you'd do me the honour and teach me how a condition that requires fixing the body is a disorder of gender identity? I mean, to most people, that wouldn't be a disorder of gender identity - it would, if anything, be a disorder of the body!!! :rolleyes:

Frankly I find the overwhelming majority of people who take the "trans" approach to this whole debate as unwilling to deal with the concrete facts about GID/GD

Frankly, I find the people who take the "people who identify as trans are just wierdos and hence I'm not one of them" stance to be, well, I'm not actually going to finish that thought.

The only thing worse than the deliberate vagueness and wilful ignorance shown towards GID/GD is, those politically correct groups and individuals who do not take the time to acquaint themselves with the facts about his condition and thereby fail to deal with the issues on that basis.

Well, there are things that are worse - for instance, those that denigrate other's experience of themselves.

deirdre_dub

s.duffy wrote: »

You want to know something “deirdre_dub” no matter how many times you try declare that you are transgendered, the truth of the matter is that you’re not

You want to know something "s.duffy" - no matter how many times you try and declare that you are not transgendered, the truth of the matter is that you are.

:rolleyes:

Two can play the game of invalidating other people's experience of themselves. So, shall we declare a truce?

for you are really “GID” a person with a disorder

How fscking dare you declare me as a person with a disorder. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

and do you want to know how I know that, because your three diagnoses letters prove it, you were diagnosed of suffering with a disorder, whether you like it or not

So if a doctor told you that you were disordered for having red hair, you would accept that?

And as you said “You do not get to tell me who and what I am” well I don’t have to “deirdre_dub” because your diagnoses letters disclose the truth,

No - they don't disclose the truth - they disclose society's transphobia.

s.duffy

“QUOTE”


I know Cat personally, and ze identifies hirself as transgendered. Ze isn't a "crossdresser" - rather, ze "falls between genders".



What does “Ze” and “Hirself” mean, is that short text for “she & herself” or “hi & himself” for Cat McIlroy said on TV that they want the “M” word on their birth Certificate, which the “M” word stands for Male, so if Cat where assigned at birth as female as she stated on TV, but referees to be clarified as transgendered male without undergoing any form of diagnoses or gender surgery, then how can they prove that they are male,

s.duffy

“How fscking dare you declare me as a person with a disorder”


It seems “deirdre_dub” that your very angry and pissed off at what I said, I bet you didn’t tell the gender specialists that medically diagnosed you with such disorder to go fukk them self’s,

s.duffy

Hi Links234,


I just wanted to ask you a question in relation to a commit you made whereby you said, “I'm not classifying myself as being neither male nor female. I'm a woman, I'm female, and I'm transgender”,



First you said you weren’t classifying yourself as neither male or female, then you classified yourself as being a woman, which is female, then you classified yourself as being transgendered, which is neither male or female,


I don’t mean to be rude, but this doesn’t make any sense:

Annasopra

Folks please debate the issues. Don't get personal at one another. Don't declare under any circumstances that you know what another persons identity is. Stop cursing at each other. I will be issuing infractions if you don't adhere to this warning

Shakti

Is there a debate?
Its up to the individual if they identify as 'Transgender' or not be that someone who has been professionally diagnosed with 'GID' or maybe a transvestite, cross-dresser etc. turning the term 'Transgender' into a totem pole wouldn't be something I would be interested to see. I see it as an inclusive term which you can choose to identify with or indeed not identify with.
Now you can say thats all very 'PC' of me and perhaps it is but whats the alternative... counting each-others neurons to decide who gets to be male or female?
the de-pathologisation of some by the pathologisation of others?

deirdre_dub

"Ze" and "hirself" are gender-neutral forms of "he/she" and "himself/herself".

s.duffy wrote: »

Cat McIlroy said on TV that they want the “M” word on their birth Certificate

Not true. Cat said that M would be "preferable".

then how can they prove that they are male,

One of two things is true. Either Cat is somewhat male, or Cat is a liar.

deirdre_dub

s.duffy wrote: »

It seems “deirdre_dub” that your very angry and pissed off at what I said, I bet you didn’t tell the gender specialists that medically diagnosed you with such disorder to go fukk them self’s,

Do you? How much do you bet?

Yes - I did tell them to go fsck themselves. Obviously I didn't do it out loud. However, now that my transition is approaching a successful outcome, I'll soon have no problem saying it to them out loud.

hare05

s.duffy wrote: »

Hi Links234,


I just wanted to ask you a question in relation to a commit you made whereby you said, “I'm not classifying myself as being neither male nor female. I'm a woman, I'm female, and I'm transgender,



First you said you werent classifying yourself as neither male or female, then you classified yourself as being a woman, which is female, then you classified yourself as being transgendered, which is neither male or female,


I dont mean to be rude, but this doesnt make any sense:

Why do I feel like I'm losing IQ points every time the s.tuffy one replies?

Jumping in here to agree fully with Links and Deirdre. Psychological diagnoses have been used since their invention as covert discrimination against minority groups. Wasn't it mentioned above that homosexuality was in the books until '74?

And there have been cases where people of suspect priorities have campaigned to change medical designations.

Read up on intersex conditions, there was a self-branded 'expert' who managed to change the intersex designation to something far more clinical without any case studies or even input from people who were born intersexed. An act which no doubt has set back any attempts to prevent genital mutilation at birth to bring said people in line with societal gender roles.

For those who don't quite get it, imagine being a male who was given GRS at birth to make them female, because they were born with one ovary, etc.

Just to point out that same person has now ditched the intersex community and is doing the same sly campaigns to change the designation of transgender issues to more closely fit autogynophelia. Will you still call yourself a GID sufferer if the meaning changes to 'female form fetishist'?

Didn't think so.

This is why its so important for all transgender/ transsexual/ genderqueer/ bigender/ and genderless people to define themselves for who they are.

We are surrounded on all sides by dumb sh*ts and not all of them are there to help us, medical professional or otherwise.

...and don't even get me started on 'HBS sufferers'...

Asry

I have some genuine questions that might calm everyone down for a while to answer them? Seeing as we're on the subject, like. This whole 'gender' thing confuses me. I don't see really why anyone should have one. Why can't people just...be themselves. Why should it matter, really, what clothes you wear or what genitalia you have or whether you a breeder or have same-sex relations? It doesn't make much sense. But then, many things about society confuse me.

My question. Sorry. There's only one. :

GID...that's a disorder, yeah? And diagnosed by doctors. I just kind of really annoyed Meesared there (sitting beside me) by saying if you're diagnosed with a disorder by a doctor then don't you have one? Thinking of it though, doctors can never figure out what's actually wrong with me; they've been trying for years; if they can't figure something like that out, then surely there's an awful lot of gray areas? But GID though. I mean, it's kind of a gateway you need to pass through in order to begin a physical transformation into a more comfortable, natural form, for yourself. Please, I just don't understand it. It's a disorder but it's not. But if everyone knows that it's fake then why do it? I guess they'll probably do away with it soon. That'll make more sense.

Em. As regards this whole clusterf*ck of a thread, I want to add this - there's no such thing as reality. Reality doesn't exist out there in some amorphous form. You can't touch it. Reality is only the perception of the world in your own head. So I guess, were it not for the prejudices of others and the certain linguistic connotations and abberations between signs and signifiers...we could all be whoever we wanted.

hare05

Asry wrote: »

Why should it matter, really, what clothes you wear or what genitalia you have or whether you a breeder or have same-sex relations? It doesn't make much sense. But then, many things about society confuse me.

Welcome to the trans* world.

I hate that 'difference' is viewed as wrong. I have male genitals, therefore I must be the strong one, the unemotional one. I have large shoulders and small hips, so I'm a freak for liking dresses, girls jeans, even colorful clothing.

Leaving aside the near crippling dysphoria I feel about my body, there is so much of my personality, my emotions, and expression I must hide from the world because I'm apparently a freak if I show it.

I ask the same question, why does this matter? Why is it such a big deal that if I hate body hair / my shoulders / being muscular / the smell of my body / so many other little things, its treated as a perversion, a DISORDER with a clinical process to fix it...

Jesus Christ... if I feel hormones will change my body in a way that will align it more with the way I feel, that is not some frakking disease, its just who I am and how I live.

This is the divide that a GID diagnosis upholds. It may take the blame for my 'status' away from me (medical diagnosis, not your fault you feel that way, blah, blah, we pity you, etc) but the problem still stands. It is viewed as weird, strange, a perverse affliction, a MEDICAL DISORDER that needs to be FIXED.

That's the problem. I don't care how 'related' my feelings are to that of stereotypical early-onset transsexuals, crossdressers, transvestites. I don't want or need doctors to diagnose me as me.

I am who I am. I may end up taking steps, chemical or surgical to become more comfortable in the form chance dealt me, but that does not make me mentally ill and I WILL hurt anyone who suggests that.


As for 'disorder but not disorder'...

Hormones are powerful things, and surgery is permanent. GID is a gateway diagnosis but THAT IS ALL IT IS. They need a way to regulate access to controlled hormones and to ensure people don't hurt themselves DIYing. Prof O'Shea said these exact words to me "Clinical diagnosis was designed to provide easier access to safe doses." Before that, people would DIY without regular hormone level checks.

It's in the books as a disorder so the docs will have an easily recognized treatment path to follow. So bringing new doctors in would be easier.

The diagnosis exists solely to make it easier on pencil pushers to throw our files in the right box. That is all.

Imagine if homosexuality was still classed as a disorder but the treatment path was just to hand the guys free condoms and the girls free dental dams and to wish you good luck. (Not intended to offend)

Asry

hare05 wrote: »

I am who I am. I may end up taking steps, chemical or surgical to become more comfortable in the form chance dealt me, but that does not make me mentally ill and I WILL hurt anyone who suggests that.

That's the thing, though, isn't it. Any disorder diagnosed by a shrink brings us into the mental health area and to be honest, many, many things there are all different shades of grey (is it gray or gray? I can never remember ).

Aside from the 'different brain' thing - which apparently there's little research to back up? I only heard that from someone here though so please don't shoot me - GID sounds like other 'disorders' like OCD or anxiety disorders or clinical depression or maybe even bipolar and boarderline personality cannot be clinically or chemically (or whatever the word it is that I'm looking for is:o) ascertained or quantified or found in bloodtests, swaps etc. It's a world view thing.*

That's what it comes down to. The pressures of society and how we see ourselves and what roles we're being forced into every DAY by ads and tv and magazines.

This is just how I think it might be, seeing as society and morals and gender roles themselves are just social contructs that are sometimes arbitrary and ultimately have no meaning...:o

*I KNOW that there's the whole thing about an inbalance of chemicals but apparently there's little research backing that up either.

stephen_n

s.duffy do you want to segregate yourself from people who don't wish to class their gender as being incorrect? I'm still really confused by your posting. It seems that you actively want to be catagorised as having a disorder as if in someway that removes your responsibility because someone is telling you that you have something wrong with you and it's not your fault. I may be wrong but that's what your posts seem to amount to?

G.K.

s.duffy - how are you one to say what transgender means if you don't identify as it? Transgender is a portmanteau of trans and gender, literally meaning 'across gender'. This does not equal androgyny. A much better interpretation of the term 'across gender', in my opinion, is 'Gender Variant'. This is non-specific - it is an umbrella term allows anyone who doesn't conform to a culturally-encouraged gender binary and the culturally-established gender roles. For example, Deirdre and I both identify as transgender, and were both born physically male, but our lives are totally different - she has started her transition to become physially female, while I am content to live and be gendered as effectively a cis male, at least for the time being. Neither of our situations detracts from our right to identify as we choose - as transgender as well as human and anything else also. You having a flawed definition of a term doesn't give you the right to tell us who we are and aren't.

s.duffy

That’s true “G, K” I don’t have the right to tell you who you are and aren't. Just the same way you and others alike don’t have the right to tell me and others alike who we are or aren’t, but that’s exactly what transgendered people do, accuses everybody who has some forum of gender issue, as being transgendered,

I’m proud to classify myself as being “GID” and have and never will declare myself as being Trans, and there are many a person just like me who do likewise, but then the trans community don’t seem to grasp that people are different and assume because we all have gender identity issues we are all alike, and we should all use the same terminology words,

Three years before I were diagnosed with”GID”, I were referred by a clinic psychologist to a support group called “The Irish Transgender society” which were located down on Frederick street North, and on the evening of the appointment, I arrived to find myself surrounded by over thirty transvestites, who were all heading out to a night on the town, dressed like Barbie dolls, so to make a long story short, if people who are genuinely transgendered, what to classify them self’s under the same terminology as transvestites do, then that’s your choose, and that’s just one of many reasons why i don’t use the word transgender, I would rather be diagnosed with a disorder, then to be seen as a transvestite, someone who adopts the dress or manner or sexual role of the opposite sex,

hare05

s.duffy wrote: »

That’s true “G, K” I don’t have the right to tell you who you are and aren't. Just the same way you and others alike don’t have the right to tell me and others alike who we are or aren’t, but that’s exactly what transgendered people do, accuses everybody who has some forum of gender issue, as being transgendered,

I’m proud to classify myself as being “GID” and have and never will declare myself as being Trans, and there are many a person just like me who do likewise, but then the trans community don’t seem to grasp that people are different and assume because we all have gender identity issues we are all alike, and we should all use the same terminology words,

Three years before I were diagnosed with”GID”, I were referred by a clinic psychologist to a support group called “The Irish Transgender society” which were located down on Frederick street North, and on the evening of the appointment, I arrived to find myself surrounded by over thirty transvestites, who were all heading out to a night on the town, dressed like Barbie dolls, so to make a long story short, if people who are genuinely transgendered, what to classify them self’s under the same terminology as transvestites do, then that’s your choose, and that’s just one of many reasons why i don’t use the word transgender, I would rather be diagnosed with a disorder, then to be seen as a transvestite, someone who adopts the dress or manner or sexual role of the opposite sex,

Knew it, HBSer.

/thread.

G.K.

To clarify my ignorance, when you say 'HBSer' do you mean like an 'elitist' who thinks because they are better in some way/deserve more respect or privelages?

hare05

G.K. wrote: »

To clarify my ignorance, when you say 'HBSer' do you mean like an 'elitist' who thinks because they are better in some way/deserve more respect or privelages?

Originally meant Harry Benjamin Syndrome, or a non-medically accepted condition made up by a group of elitist trans women who took part in over the top 'Trannier Than Thou' antics.

Basically if you are the type of person to call other trans women crossdressers because they don't achieve or agree with your ideal form of transition, you're a HBSer.

No one in their right mind, after being on the receiving end of such discrimination should turn around and dish it out to others on the same path for not being 'tranny enough' :rolleyes:

deirdre_dub

s.duffy wrote: »

Three years before I were diagnosed with”GID”, I were referred by a clinic psychologist to a support group called “The Irish Transgender society” which were located down on Frederick street North, and on the evening of the appointment, I arrived to find myself surrounded by over thirty transvestites, who were all heading out to a night on the town, dressed like Barbie dolls, so to make a long story short, if people who are genuinely transgendered, what to classify them self’s under the same terminology as transvestites do, then that’s your choose, and that’s just one of many reasons why i don’t use the word transgender, I would rather be diagnosed with a disorder, then to be seen as a transvestite, someone who adopts the dress or manner or sexual role of the opposite sex,

No question about it - you have a disorder.

I've come to know many M2F transvestites since I started exploring my own gender identity issues. I believe that many of them have what you might call a mild form of GID. I consider them all to be my sisters.

s.duffy

Thank you Desire_Dub for the compliment in stating such, and I will return the compliment by saying; you are most defiantly Transgendered,

So now that we are not arguing any more, I just thought of a solution that may put an end to all the arguments between “GID” & “Transgendered”

As we all know three are going to be new legislation brought in to Ireland to allow people with ”GID” to be issued with a new birth certificate classifying them within their rightful gender, but people who classify them self’s as being transgendered also wish to be classified within their referred gender, but due to not wanting to be medically diagnosed and undergo any hormonal treatment and surgery, there being left out, well how would transgender people feel if the government where to issue them with a new birth certificate with the letter ”T” on it, since that’s what Transgender people refer them self’s as,

We hear that there a three genders, male, female and the tired gender being Transgender, so therefore having the letter T on their birth certificate would be more preferable, for they are neither male or female,

At present Cat McIlroy says they are Transgendered, whereby neither male nor female, but if the letter F is changed on their birth Certificate, to the letter M they say would be more preferable,

But what if the Law allowed Cat to have the Letter F changed to the Letter M, they wouldn’t be seen as being Transgendered no more because they would be seen by the state as being male, whereby having the same legal rights as married couples have, as in male and female, but Cat states very clearly that they are transgendered, neither male or female, so therefore having the letter M on their birth certificate is not preferable, because they are not male nor female, and therefore having the Letter T is preferable, for it matches there true identity,

hare05

s.duffy wrote: »

Thank you Desire_Dub for the compliment in stating such, and I will return the compliment by saying; you are most defiantly Transgendered,


So now that we are no longer arguing any more, I just thought of a solution that may put an end to all the arguments between “GID” & “Transgendered”

As we know the three are going to be new legislation brought in to Ireland to allow people with ”GID” to be issued with a new birth certificate classifying them within their rightful gender, but people who classify them self’s as being transgendered also wish to be classified within their referred gender, but due to not wanting to be medically diagnosed, seem left out, well it would be best for all if the government where to issue Transgendered peoples with a new birth certificate with the letter ”T” on it, since that’s what Transgender people refer them self’s as,
We hear that there a three genders, male, female and Transgender, so therefore having the letter T on their birth certificate would be more preferable,

And while I’m here, my seconded point I want to make is:

At present Cat McIlroy says they are Transgendered, neither male nor female, but the letter F is on their birth Certificate, but if cat finds that the letter M as in male were stated on their birth certificate, it would be more preferable, correct:

But what if the Law allowed Cat to have the Letter F changed to the Letter M, they wouldn’t be Transgendered anymore because they would be seen by the state as being male, whereby having the legal rights as married couples have, as in male and female,

But saying all this, there is a question that I would like to ask transgendered people for I don’t know the answer myself, and it’s neither a trick nor insulting question to ask,

If from the above were to happen, and Cat got her M on their birth certificate what changing room and toilets would they use, because they haven’t undergone and hormonal treatment, nor reassignment surgery to change their physical appearances in any way, and seen that there are only three types of changing rooms whereby 1 being male, 2 being female and the tired being disability,

If the answer were the male changing room, how would other males respond to having a male in amongst them with a female body, and vice versa for a female to be in the female changing room or toilets but has a male body,

But if the answer is the disability changing room and toilets, then therefore do all transgender people declare them self’s as suffer with a disability,

And as I state very clearly, I’m not being rude, but I have often wondered about this issues, a person after undergoing the “GRS” wouldn’t have an issue, but for a transgendered person who only wish to have the letter assigned at birth changed, would

There are so many things wrong with this...

Does using the disabled toilet mean you are dsabled? No. Ask anyone who's run in there because the correct toilet was either being cleaned, or full up. :pac:

This is yet again you trying to apply a black and white viewpoint to a very grey world, and the silly thing is that the 'black' and 'white' being used are of your own design, and seem to have no connection to... well... anything tangible.

Transgender is an all encompassing term that covers all points along the gender spectrum. This means it is an appropriate label for those who don't feel comfortable with their birth gender.

You seem to have an all or nothing attitude (and a fairly morbid one at that) where no one is deserving of basic rights unless they accept full on clinically diagnosed GID (So rather than 'Trannier than Thou', it's 'Sicker than Thou'?) and anyone in between cisgender and full surgical transsexual (Yes, that dirty word :rolleyes:) is left pissing in the wind.

Point of fact: It doesn't matter how far down the path of genderf*ckery someone is, they still deserve basic respect, and should not be singled out by sticking a big dirty T on their birth cert if they're not willing to say they're mentally ill. Because we're not. Get that into your head.

There are men. There are women. There are people that defy description in such a binary. It is up to those people to define for themselves who they are, how they present themselves to the world and how they identify emotionally.

Medical professionals are involved in this process to RULE OUT mental instabilities. I am a trans woman. Therefore I am also included under the umbrella term transgender according to it's definition. I am not a mental patient. A diagnosis of GID does nothing but let the medical professional legally cover their ass so they can provide you with safe treatment.

It exists to provide a clear framework for medical professionals to follow.

It's closer to being diagnosed with a broken leg. Something you fix, and then get on with life. It's not something you carry around for a life long pity party.

If you need a crutch, fine. If you need someone else to tell you who you are, so be it.

Just don't drag the rest of us down with you.

deirdre_dub

s.duffy wrote: »

So now that we are not arguing any more, I just thought of a solution that may put an end to all the arguments between “GID” & “Transgendered”

There are a few people who identify outside the gender binary. To be honest, I don't know enough of them to be able to say if your suggestion would be of any use to them. However, I don't think they would like a "T" on their birth cert - I suspect they would prefer a blank or something.

I think the big problem is that "GID" isn't the only means by which people have their gender mis-identified at birth. There are a whole load of intersex conditions that the proposals for gender recognition will exclude. There are also those like Cat McIlroy - people who have some form of GID, but for whom their GID isn't strong enough to warrant surgeries or other medical intervention, and for whom a diagnosis of a disorder is particularly offensive to their sense of self.

s.duffy

Hare05: I noticed that you didn’t answer my question in relation to: If from the above were to happen, and Cat got her M on their birth certificate what changing room and toilets would they use, because they haven’t undergone and hormonal treatment, nor reassignment surgery to change their physical appearances in any way, and seen that there are only three types of changing rooms whereby 1 being male, 2 being female and the tired being disability,


And instead skipped half way down the page till you got to where I mention about the disability part, I would really love to know the answer to my question “Hare05” please answer the above,