rule Question - stroke & distance

BoardsMember

Am I right in thinking that a player can always replay a shot, under the penalty of stroke & distance?

So, for example, you hit the ball towards a very deep and diifficult bunker from an easy approach shot, where you would usually nail it to the flag. you walk up to your ball and decide that you dont like the look of it. So you go back to where you played your last shot from, take a penalty drop.

Same example could apply with a bad chip that went through the green and into a hazard, or down the side of a hill etc.

So the question is, are you always entitled to replay your previous shot having decided you dont like the look of your next one, regardless of why.

Thanks!

D3PO

Well your entitled to delare a ball as unplayable at any point with the option to replay from your last position. (except if the ball is in a water hazard)

So theoretically you could do so under all your examples except for the one where you hit into the hazard.

Doing so to gain an advantage even if it is only in your head kind of goes in the face of the play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it and if you cant do either do whats fair motto of the R&A though.

BoardsMember

D3PO - it is only in a water hazard that you cannot declare your ball unplayable.

I'm pretty sure declaring it unplayable is always an option, it is only your opinion that matters so can be done in any circumstance. And one of the options of unplayable is to take penalty & distance.

My question is slightly different: is it by declaring it unplayable that you avail of the stroke & distance, or can you avail of stroke and distance without delaring it unplayable.

One other question, now that I'm at it!! You cant declare your ball unplayable in a water hazard. Is that because one relief options in a water hazard is dropping it away from the hole, keeping it on the line of the last entry point and the flag, and that the unplayable would effectively turn it into being able to drop it within two club length, which is a lateral water hazard option.

D3PO

BoardsMember wrote: »

D3PO - it is only in a water hazard that you cannot declare your ball unplayable.

.

The player may deem his ball as unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to weather his ball is unplayable.

Rule 28 Page 107/108 of the rules of golf

D3PO

sorry didnt realise you were referring to stroke and distance and not penalty and distance.

dharn

thats interesting so if i hit a ball into a bunker and it lying perfectly but it is very deep i can go back to where i hit into the bunker and play with a penalty drop

BoardsMember

That's right. Or if you hit a putt that roles off a green into a bunker you can hit the putt again with a one stroke penalty. The list goes on.

What I'm trying to find out is if this is permitted by declaring the ball unplayable.

Mizuno Man

As far as I'm aware you can't avail of stroke & distance simply because you don't like your first shot simply because the rules make no allowance anywhere for this scenario. You can however avail of it by declaring your ball unplayable or lost for that matter - in the lost case as long as it isn't found in the interim.

I've done this every now and again. I hit an awful shot that goes into long grass. I don't even want to look for the ball because the chances are I'll have an awful lie and won't be able to get out anyway and have no chance of a two club length unplayable drop, so I just declare the ball lost and drop another one. If I went and looked for it, found it, and declared it unplayable, then I would be going back and dropping anyway so this saves time in my view!

I guess you could just declar eit unplayable too and drop straight away, but what I don't know is if rules require you to have found your ball first before you can delcare it unplayable....

Opics

dharn wrote: »

thats interesting so if i hit a ball into a bunker and it lying perfectly but it is very deep i can go back to where i hit into the bunker and play with a penalty drop

Yes but I wouldnt see the point with a good lie. I would rather hit my 3rd shot(or whatever shot you're hitting) from the bunker than dropping where I hit it into the bunker and be playing my 4th.

BoardsMember

Opics wrote: »

Yes but I wouldnt see the point with a good lie. I would rather hit my 3rd shot(or whatever shot you're hitting) from the bunker than dropping where I hit it into the bunker and be playing my 4th.

I like your positive thinking. But...consider this situation - thour third shot into a par 5 is from 10 feet in front of the green, you have a clear path to the flag, it's an easy up and down. You have a terrible case of the shanks (sorry for introducing them in a golf discussion forum), and you put it near the face of a deep rivetted bunker on the right hand side where you have to hit backwards, a line which is straight into trees. The ball is emminently playable but it's not exactly an encouraging situation.

dharn

ya thats what i was thinking took 3 to get out of a bunker last week if i could replay the chip shot +1 i would surely have got on better, btw why dont the pros who sometimes have a ball plugged in the face of a pot bunker with maybe millions at stake take this option

0161allin

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable::Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the
Definitions section – see pages 30-43.
The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course,
except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge
as to whether his ball is unplayable

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must under penalty of
one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original
ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point
directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is
dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may
be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay,
but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under
Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball
must be dropped in the bunker.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball
or substitute a ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes...

Bit of a stupid rule i did not know it existed.. don't think i'd be best pleased if my playing partners started using this rule every time they bladed a chip shot out the back of a green.. Bit unfair i believe if used in correctly!!

PhilipMarlowe

Your discussion of what you can and can't do under Rule 28 (unplayable) is moot because the scenario discussed by the OP is covered under rule 27.1 (stroke & distance).
"a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.
Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance."

It is not relevant really where the original ball is... it may be lost or it may be in a water hazard etc. You re not declaring it unplayable, you are just re-hitting.

Tiger did this you may remember at The Masters a few years ago when he putted the ball off the green into the water (13 or 15?) - he was able to putt again from the same place after applying the penalty.

Oh, and I see the phrase "declare the ball lost" makes a re-appearance..... /head explodes

BoardsMember

Licksy wrote: »

Your discussion of what you can and can't do under Rule 28 (unplayable) is moot because the scenario discussed by the OP is covered under rule 27.1 (stroke & distance).
"a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.
Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance."

It is not relevant really where the original ball is... it may be lost or it may be in a water hazard etc. You re not declaring it unplayable, you are just re-hitting.

Tiger did this you may remember at The Masters a few years ago when he putted the ball off the green into the water (13 or 15?) - he was able to putt again from the same place after applying the penalty.

Oh, and I see the phrase "declare the ball lost" makes a re-appearance..... /head explodes

Thanks Licksy, that is exactly what I was getting at, I did not know the rule number, but was pretty sure at any time you can re-hit your shot.

Hangs his head in shame having realised he said what should not be said about "declaring" and "ball lost", I hope I did not disturb your sleep!

k.p.h

It's like a mulligan with a 1 shot penalty. Could probably come in handy if you ended up with a really manky lie. But any type of hack onto the green or surrounds leaves you with an opportunity to hole it. Which would be the more optimistic way to go about it

Jul3s

k.p.h wrote: »

It's like a mulligan with a 1 shot penalty. Could probably come in handy if you ended up with a really manky lie. But any type of hack onto the green or surrounds leaves you with an opportunity to hole it. Which would be the more optimistic way to go about it

It's not like a mulligan atall atall, because it's more like a two shot penalty, e.g. you were playing your 2nd and you're now playing your 4th.

reflog rehtona

Licksy wrote: »

rule 27.1 (stroke & distance).
a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.
Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.

Does the fact that you have to declare a ball as a provisional follow on from this so? i.e. if you don't declare it a provisional before you play it you must proceed with the second ball on the assumption that you are proceeding under stroke and distance?

and...

If you hit a provisional and declare it as such, if you find your original ball but don't like where it is can you declare that unplayable and proceed with the provisional?

stockdam

reflog rehtona wrote: »

Does the fact that you have to declare a ball as a provisional follow on from this so? i.e. if you don't declare it a provisional before you play it you must proceed with the second ball on the assumption that you are proceeding under stroke and distance?

Yes if you hit a 2nd ball from the same place without declaring it as provisional then the 2nd ball is in play (stroke and distance so add two shots to your original shot). The first ball could be 2 feet in front of you but once you play another non-provisional ball then you must proceed with the 2nd ball.

and...

reflog rehtona wrote: »

If you hit a provisional and declare it as such, if you find your original ball but don't like where it is can you declare that unplayable and proceed with the provisional?

No. Once you find the original ball (not OOB) then the provisional is out of play. If you deem the first one to be unplayable and you want to re-hit from the original spot then you must now go back and do so.

thewobbler

I'm confused between this and an earlier thread about being able to go back anywhere on your line of entry from an unplayable lie.

Can someone explain to me the rules in this scenario?

• I'm playing my 2nd shot to a par 4 with the bunker from hell guarding the right side of the green.
• My shot plugs into the face of the bunker, and the overhang means I'm best going out sideways.
• Instead of doing that, I call an unplayable lie.

I was under the impression that my options here are:

1. Take a two-length drop, under penalty of one stroke, and no closer to the hole (so I'm playing stroke 4 beside the bunker).
2. Play my shot again from its original position, with a one shot penalty (so I'm playing stroke 2 again, but now as stroke 4).
3. Elect to drop my ball anywhere along the line of entry to the bunker, no closer to the hole, with a one shot penalty (so I've dropped myself into a nice position beside the green, removing possible hazards from my next shot, and I'm playing stroke 4).

What out of all that is wrong? I shudder to think.


Part 2. Exactly the same scenario, but instead of landing in a bunker, I've landed underneath a bush that helps frame the green.

Is there a difference in the rules because I'm in rough rather than a defined hazard?

Corkblowin

thewobbler wrote: »

I'm confused between this and an earlier thread about being able to go back anywhere on your line of entry from an unplayable lie.

Can someone explain to me the rules in this scenario?

• I'm playing my 2nd shot to a par 4 with the bunker from hell guarding the right side of the green.
• My shot plugs into the face of the bunker, and the overhang means I'm best going out sideways.
• Instead of doing that, I call an unplayable lie.

I was under the impression that my options here are:

1. Take a two-length drop, under penalty of one stroke, and no closer to the hole (so I'm playing stroke 4 beside the bunker).
2. Play my shot again from its original position, with a one shot penalty (so I'm playing stroke 2 again, but now as stroke 4).
3. Elect to drop my ball anywhere along the line of entry to the bunker, no closer to the hole, with a one shot penalty (so I've dropped myself into a nice position beside the green, removing possible hazards from my next shot, and I'm playing stroke 4).

What out of all that is wrong? I shudder to think.


Part 2. Exactly the same scenario, but instead of landing in a bunker, I've landed underneath a bush that helps frame the green.

Is there a difference in the rules because I'm in rough rather than a defined hazard?

Shudder away wobbler

Someone posted earlier, if you declare a ball unplayable in a bunker you can do any of those 3 options, however unless you go back to where you played your original ball from you must drop it in the bunker - ie you cannot take 2 club lengths to get out of the bunker or go back on a line & drop outside the bunker. There is a difference between being in a bunker and just under a bush. Rule 28 if you want to look yourself.

As for dropping on a line - the line is from where the ball is and the flag - not along the point of entry! So in your second case you would have the bush between you and the flag if you took that option.

How many people are playing this damn game without knowing the rules!!!!!

thewobbler

Good man, I had 4/6 right. Would pass most tests

Corkblowin

thewobbler wrote: »

Good man, I had 4/6 right. Would pass most tests

ah sorry wobbler - I wasn't taking a shot at you - just tired of seeing drops in the wrong place every time I play - & funnily enough its always in a more advantageous position! Some people get very angry when you tell them that their nearest point of relief is behind a tree or something like that.

Mizuno Man

I don't understand what's meant by the reference to declaring the ball lost. Licksy, do you mean that shouldn't be done or are you simply referring to the fact that it might not actually be entirely necessary under the rules?

It is always recommended if not sometimes required that you keep your playing partners informed about what you are doing when taking relief or a penalty. Declaring what rule you intend to invoke would seem like a very good idea to me!

BoardsMember

Mizuno Man wrote: »

I don't understand what's meant by the reference to declaring the ball lost. Licksy, do you mean that shouldn't be done or are you simply referring to the fact that it might not actually be entirely necessary under the rules?

It is always recommended if not sometimes required that you keep your playing partners informed about what you are doing when taking relief or a penalty. Declaring what rule you intend to invoke would seem like a very good idea to me!

Be very careful!!

What Licksy is referring to is that you cannot "declare" your ball lost. Your ball is deemed lost under some circumstances, it's nothing something you can declare. It is deemed (passive tense!!) lost if one of the following is met:

• a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
• b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or
• c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a); or
• d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1); or
• e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

thewobbler

Corkblowin, no worries, I actually do appreciate the knowledge being shared. The bunker one hasn't come up for me yet, but the line of entry / line of sight one has been abused (unknowingly) on occasion!

Mizuno Man

BoardsMember wrote: »

Be very careful!!

What Licksy is referring to is that you cannot "declare" your ball lost. Your ball is deemed lost under some circumstances, it's nothing something you can declare. It is deemed (passive tense!!) lost if one of the following is met:

• a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
• b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or
• c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a); or
• d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1); or
• e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

That's all understood Boardsmember. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out.

However, is it not being a little pedantic? I understand that if I try to declare my ball lost it is not actually lost under the rules and if someone finds it before I take any action then it remains in play until I decide what to do next.

But if I say "RIght, I'm not looking for that ball and I've decided it is lost, I'll play my fourth shot from here." and then I drop and play a ball, without declaring it a provisional ball, will I not simply be deemed to have put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance and therefore whether my original ball is found after that makes no difference whatsoever?

In other words, I understand the fact that you can not declare a ball lost under the rules, but what harm can it do? If nothing else it will make it clear that I am not playing a provisional ball, so if my first ball is found afterwards I won't have to walk back to where I am and play my 4th shot all over again.

Maybe what you all mean is I should simply declare I am procedding under penalty of stroke and distance and not say lost, but is the effect not the same at the end of the day?

Holy Diver

What if I hit a poor drive, possibly lost. Then hit a provisional. When I look for my first ball I find it but it's in a v bad position. I know the fact that I have found it it is in play but what if, regardless of that, I walk up to the provisional (20 yards up fairway) and hit it - is the provisional now not the ball in play seeing as I have played it from a more advanced position? Prob bending the rules but is it legal?

stockdam

Holy Diver wrote: »

What if I hit a poor drive, possibly lost. Then hit a provisional. When I look for my first ball I find it but it's in a v bad position. I know the fact that I have found it it is in play but what if, regardless of that, I walk up to the provisional (20 yards up fairway) and hit it - is the provisional now not the ball in play seeing as I have played it from a more advanced position? Prob bending the rules but is it legal?

No, in this case, once you have found your original ball then it's in play and your provisional isn't. You could "bend" the rules by claiming you are not sure if it is your original ball (that's if you haven't put a unique mark on the ball).

charlieIRL

Holy Diver wrote: »

What if I hit a poor drive, possibly lost. Then hit a provisional. When I look for my first ball I find it but it's in a v bad position. I know the fact that I have found it it is in play.....

We had the exact same situation yesterday, playing partner hits his drive left and into 2ft rough right along an OOB line (10th hole in Moate)
He hit a provisional as we thought either his ball is OOB or lost. He hit a peach of a drive and the provisional ball landed in the middle of the fairway in a fantastic position to hit the green with a wedge. We went to look for the original ball and found it inside 5 mins and inside the OOB line & in a stinker of a hole which took the provisional out of play.

BoardsMember

Mizuno Man wrote: »

That's all understood Boardsmember. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out.

However, is it not being a little pedantic?

Why don't u ask licksy if it's being a bit pedantic??!!

PhilipMarlowe

BoardsMember wrote: »

Mizuno Man wrote: »

That's all understood Boardsmember. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out.

However, is it not being a little pedantic?

Why don't u ask licksy if it's being a bit pedantic??!!

Possibly not the perfect time for a reply (oiled up nicely after an awesome Prince concert) but if enough people continue to mention the declare lost phrase then more people will believe it to be true... and then when they hit a ****e shot into a bush, play a provisional, give a cursory look for the original, "declare it lost", go to hit the Provo and then their playing partner finds the ball in a nasty position that doesn't offer an attractive option... they say "I'll play the provisional because I've already declared that ball lost" and then we all go crazy and party like it's 1999

Mizuno Man

Licksy wrote: »

Possibly not the perfect time for a reply (oiled up nicely after an awesome Prince concert) but if enough people continue to mention the declare lost phrase then more people will believe it to be true... and then when they hit a ****e shot into a bush, play a provisional, give a cursory look for the original, "declare it lost", go to hit the Provo and then their playing partner finds the ball in a nasty position that doesn't offer an attractive option... they say "I'll play the provisional because I've already declared that ball lost" and then we all go crazy and party like it's 1999

You're right Licksy, probably not the best time to reply!! Hope the gig was great though! Sorry I couldn't make it myself...

I totally understand where you are coming from with the above. My only comment would be that if the same said golfer incorrectly "declared his ball lost" he might also be trying to indicate to his playing partner that he no longer wants him to continue to look for it. And if the same said partner finds it after the golfer has headed towards his provisional, he needs a lesson in gtolfing manners!

That being said, I agree declaring it lost will very likely lead to less informed people believing that finding it after such a declaration has been made is irrelevant.

Thanks for the reply. Hope your ears have stopped ringing!

Mizuno Man

BoardsMember wrote: »

Why don't u ask licksy if it's being a bit pedantic??!!

Figured since Licksy obviously reads the thread as well as you, that he would see my comment and respond accordingly, as he did.

Thought that bit was obvious.... Sorry about the confusion.

Whyner

stockdam wrote: »

No. Once you find the original ball (not OOB) then the provisional is out of play. If you deem the first one to be unplayable and you want to re-hit from the original spot then you must now go back and do so.

I know this rule but don't understand it. This happened yesterday but I couldn't be bothered telling him to go back and hit his tee shot again as he deemed his first unplayable. Why can't the provo be his third, saving him going back to tee off again? Am I missing something?

cackhanded

Whyner wrote: »

I know this rule but don't understand it. This happened yesterday but I couldn't be bothered telling him to go back and hit his tee shot again as he deemed his first unplayable. Why can't the provo be his third, saving him going back to tee off again? Am I missing something?

The provisional was in case the 1st ball was OOB - once the original ball was found in bounds then the provisional was no longer in play.

You can't play a provisional for a potential unplayable lie, as first and foremost you can't declare the ball unplayable until you actually see how it is lying. It's the first rule of golf, play the ball as it lies - if you can't (or don't want to), then you avail of the alternative options.

BoardsMember

Mizuno Man wrote: »

Figured since Licksy obviously reads the thread as well as you, that he would see my comment and respond accordingly, as he did.

Thought that bit was obvious.... Sorry about the confusion.

It was a joke Mizuno Man, no confusion; your question was opening a can of worms, and there was no way I was getting involved. Hence the "??!!".

GreeBo

Mizuno Man wrote: »

But if I say "RIght, I'm not looking for that ball and I've decided it is lost, I'll play my fourth shot from here." and then I drop and play a ball, without declaring it a provisional ball, will I not simply be deemed to have put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance and therefore whether my original ball is found after that makes no difference whatsoever?

Fourth shot from where?
If its lost you either need to rehit or use a provo.

The difference is that you cannot stop someone else from looking for your ball for 5 mins, this can be important in a match for example.
If you could declare it lost then this couldnt happen.

Whyner

cackhanded wrote: »

The provisional was in case the 1st ball was OOB - once the original ball was found in bounds then the provisional was no longer in play.

You can't play a provisional for a potential unplayable lie, as first and foremost you can't declare the ball unplayable until you actually see how it is lying. It's the first rule of golf, play the ball as it lies - if you can't (or don't want to), then you avail of the alternative options.

I know the rule and for discussion sakes I also know the options available, my question is, if you find your first ball and deem it unplayable does it not make sense to be playing your 4th on the provisional?

You already know the result of your provo so that is an advantage. Have I hit the nail on the head there?

GreeBo

Whyner wrote: »

I know the rule and for discussion sakes I also know the options available, my question is, if you find your first ball and deem it unplayable does it not make sense to be playing your 4th on the provisional?

You already know the result of your provo so that is an advantage. Have I hit the nail on the head there?

Pretty much. You can never have two balls in play, which is really what this situation is; two balls in play and you get to choose which you prefer.

cackhanded

cackhanded wrote: »

The provisional was in case the 1st ball was OOB - once the original ball was found in bounds then the provisional was no longer in play.

You can't play a provisional for a potential unplayable lie, as first and foremost you can't declare the ball unplayable until you actually see how it is lying. It's the first rule of golf, play the ball as it lies - if you can't (or don't want to), then you avail of the alternative options.

I'm still slightly confused and would like to understand correctly. In the above situation if he hit a ball which he thought was OOB and even if it wasn't it would most likely be in an unplayable lie is it to then play another ball but not declare it as a provisional so that you dont actually have to go and look for the original ball at all.

AldilaMan

cackhanded wrote: »

The provisional was in case the 1st ball was OOB - once the original ball was found in bounds then the provisional was no longer in play.

You can't play a provisional for a potential unplayable lie, as first and foremost you can't declare the ball unplayable until you actually see how it is lying. It's the first rule of golf, play the ball as it lies - if you can't (or don't want to), thenyou avail of the alternative options.

Are you sure about that ? My understanding is that a player can deem a ball unplayable anywhere including the middle of the fairway. I don't think you have to find it to declare it unplayable. As soon as you play 3 off the tee without declaring the ball provisional the 1st ball is out of play. I think Greebo mentioned earlier about being in matchplay and the opposition looking for 5 minutes for the ball. I can't see the point of the opposition looking for the ball since the player who put it there always has the option of declaring it unplayable and replaying from the original spot. He can't be made to play the found ball, but if found his provisional is out of play (if declared provisional).

Tones69

Kason Fit Tadpole wrote: »

I'm still slightly confused and would like to understand correctly. In the above situation if he hit a ball which he thought was OOB and even if it wasn't it would most likely be in an unplayable lie is it to then play another ball but not declare it as a provisional so that you dont actually have to go and look for the original ball at all.

AFAIK you cant just hit a second ball without declaring it, you play the provo ball, go look for your first ball (you dont have to go look for it), if you find your first ball whethers its unplayable or not you still have to play it, either play it as it lies or drop it back no closer to the hole at a penalty of 1 stoke. And the provo ball you hit, goes back into your bag

Also cant just drop a ball there where you think it went out, if you didnt play a provo ball then ud have to go back to the tee or wherever u hit the first original ball from (unless it was a water hazard)

Tones69

Tones69 wrote: »

Also cant just drop a ball there where you think it went out, if you didnt play a provo ball then ud have to go back to the tee or wherever u hit the first original ball from (unless it was a water hazard)

Obviously you cant just take a drop from where you think your ball landed, however as far as I understand if you want the second ball to be a provisional you have to very clearly declare it. i.e. If you say "I will hit another" you are not actually declaring the ball as a provisional and the ball you hit is now the ball in play.

Really what I was getting at is if you know your ball is in a place that is going to be impossible to play from and you declare your ball as a provisional are you required to look for it, if so and you dont want to look for it is playing "another" without declaring it as a provisional the correct way to proceed, or is it just exploiting a technicality in the rules and not really playing in the spirit of game.

stockdam

Kason Fit Tadpole wrote: »

Obviously you cant just take a drop from where you think your ball landed, however as far as I understand if you want the second ball to be a provisional you have to very clearly declare it. i.e. If you say "I will hit another" you are not actually declaring the ball as a provisional and the ball you hit is now the ball in play.

Correct you must clearly announce a provisional ball......"hitting another" is the most common mistake as that means that the first ball is now out of play.
I have been tempted in many occasions to pull people up on this point in matchplay.

Kason Fit Tadpole wrote: »

Really what I was getting at is if you know your ball is in a place that is going to be impossible to play from and you declare your ball as a provisional are you required to look for it, if so and you dont want to look for it is playing "another" without declaring it as a provisional the correct way to proceed, or is it just exploiting a technicality in the rules and not really playing in the spirit of game.

If you hit a provisional then it becomes the ball in play if your original ball is OOBs. However it is also the ball in play if the original ball is deemed lost - that means that it cannot be found within 5 minutes or cannot be identified OR if you have hit the provisional from the spot where you believe the original ball to be or at a point closer to the hole. Hence if you want to "deem" your original ball lost then proceed with playing your provisional if it is closer to the hole than the original ball - this is ok in stroke play but doesn't always work in matchplay if your opponent is further from the hole (as they can ask you to replay your shot and if they find your original ball then you must play that one - however the matchplay situation isn't clear in the rules).

One point that I never understood. In the rules it says that the original ball is deemed to be lost if you hit a provisional from the point where you believe the original ball to be. That means that your provisional must have landed in about the same place as the original ball.........I think they really mean that the original ball is out of play if you hit a provisional from the same distance to the hole (or closer to the hole) than you believe your original ball to be. I'm not sure what would happen if your opponent/playing partner found the original ball but it was now still closer to the hole (maybe you duffed the provisional)........you could argue that you hit the provisional from a spot that was "likely" to be closer to the hole.

Ok what else........yes if you don't "like" your original shot and feel it is better to hit another then you can do so (not a provisional) and then your original ball is out of play. That's not really in the spirit of the game especially if you can clearly see where the ball is.

All this is in the rules so read them and all will be revealed.

cackhanded

AldilaMan wrote: »

Are you sure about that ? My understanding is that a player can deem a ball unplayable anywhere including the middle of the fairway. I don't think you have to find it to declare it unplayable. As soon as you play 3 off the tee without declaring the ball provisional the 1st ball is out of play. I think Greebo mentioned earlier about being in matchplay and the opposition looking for 5 minutes for the ball. I can't see the point of the opposition looking for the ball since the player who put it there always has the option of declaring it unplayable and replaying from the original spot. He can't be made to play the found ball, but if found his provisional is out of play (if declared provisional).

Yes you can call an unplayable anywhere (except in a water hazard). If you can't / don't want to find the ball then you can't call an unplayable. How would you avail of your first two options for an unplayable lie (dropping within 2 club lengths, dropping back on a line between the ball and the pin)? You need to have found the ball in order to do that. If you are just replaying the shot from the original spot without locating 1st ball, then that is in effect a lost ball scenario.

BoardsMember

As the OP I thought I'd post my experience from the weekend that is relevant to this discussion. I was going ok. One ahead of level twos and hat smacked a good drive on seventh. I bladed an 80 yard s wedge through the green into or thru the hedge at the back of the green.

Plenty of space behind the green, and more than likely to find the ball, so has options if found. I was steaming at what I had done, and figured I want to play the shot again and get it right. So I dropped another as close as possible to where i had taken the last shot from, hitting my fourth into the green. No Provo declared, no lost ball, just stroke and distance and all within the rules

BoardsMember

cackhanded wrote: »

If you are just replaying the shot from the original spot without locating 1st ball, then that is in effect a lost ball scenario.

Only if you declare it as a provisional before you hot it. Otherwise it is stroke and distance and the ball you have just hit is in play.

BoardsMember

cackhanded wrote: »

If you are just replaying the shot from the original spot without locating 1st ball, then that is in effect a lost ball scenario.

Only if you declare it as a provisional before you hot it. Otherwise it is stroke and distance and the ball you have just hit is in play.

stockdam

stockdam wrote: »

Ok what else........yes if you don't "like" your original shot and feel it is better to hit another then you can do so (not a provisional) and then your original ball is out of play. That's not really in the spirit of the game especially if you can clearly see where the ball is.

All this is in the rules so read them and all will be revealed.

Its more certain situations where you know your ball is in deep trouble but you cant judge where it landed because of trees, hills etc that I was thinking of rather than not "liking" where a shot ends up even though its very findable. I play shots from places I should be taking unplayable lie drops as I hate taking the penalty shot (though it usually works out worse :pac:)