Are Fianna Fail's objections to the Property Tax laughable?

dixiefly

Fianna Fail spokesman Michael McGrath must have some neck and some ability to keep a straight face when criticising the Government imposing a property tax as part of te ongoing effort to undo the damage inflicted by McGrath's colleagues.

Also another FF mountpiece in the article below. It's so pathetic its laughable.


http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/7097/
Government fails to pass savings on to cash strapped households – Collins
Posted on 26/07/11 by Niall Collins

Fianna Fáil Environment Spokesperson Niall Collins has criticised the Government for pressing ahead with its indiscriminate flat-rate household tax despite the State achieving savings of over €1 Billion in interest on the bailout deal.



Deputy Collins said: “As the Government hails the significant savings for Ireland resulting from developments in the Eurozone, they have refused to pass on any of these savings to cash-strapped households across the country.



“The Government had a real opportunity here to ease the burden on Irish households who are already struggling to pay their bills. However, they made absolutely no effort to raise the issue of household taxes with Europe or to seek any form of renegotiation in light of the fundamental changes in the bailout deal agreed at the European Summit last week.



“Instead, the Government has insisted on pressing ahead with its stealth tax agenda and slapping a new charge on 1.8 million households around the country. Minister Hogan’s household tax will be imposed on a flat rate basis regardless of the varying abilities of each household to pay this extra bill.



“The move is in direct contradiction with Fine Gael’s much lauded opposition to tax increases and the Labour Party’s policy of taxes only being based on people’s ability to pay. The Taoiseach Enda Kenny last year made a solemn pledge to voters not to introduce extra taxes. Speaking on RTE’s Morning Ireland, he quoted George W Bush and said: “Read my lips, no more taxes” (09 September 2010). His Cabinet colleague, the Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton, has also repeatedly claimed that all taxes should be based on people’s ability to pay, instead of individuals on vastly differing incomes being forced to contribute the same amount. How quickly Fine Gael and Labour have forgotten these values now that they are in Government.



“Families around the country that are already struggling with household bills are getting increasingly nervous about their ability to pay extra charges next year. They want a guarantee that Minister Hogan’s new tax will be scrapped when water charges and property taxes are introduced. Rural communities also want to know if they will be hit with a sceptic tank tax on top of Minister Hogan’s household charges. And households need guarantees that they will see the direct benefit of extra funds being pumped into their local authorities in the form of improved local services.”

meglome

No one is surprised and very very few are listening to their crap.

Either FF have come down with a mass case of amnesia or they think the people of this country have :mad:

thebman

Seems kind of like an alcoholic claiming AA isn't the answer.

Seloth

meglome wrote: »

No one is surprised and very very few are listening to their crap.

Quite often FF are complaining about stuff that the current gov said they wouldn't do.

And in all fairness allot of what FF did in power the opposition at the time said they should be doing it bigger!

Who ever is in government the opposition will always complain.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Didn't Fianna Fail first propose this tax?

thebman

Seloth wrote: »

Quite often FF are complaining about stuff that the current gov said they wouldn't do.

And in all fairness allot of what FF did in power the opposition at the time said they should be doing it bigger!

Who ever is in government the opposition will always complain.

Except FF said they would be a constructive opposition. That didn't last long ...

And a property tax is something FF would have brought in so this shows they think their time in the rough is over IMO, bit early yet I'm afraid...

FF would be better off pushing for political reform than opposing policies implemented to rescue us from their disaster and things they would have implemented if still in power.

Zubeneschamali

They are just going through the motions of being an opposition, they've got nothing.

Seloth

thebman wrote: »

Except FF said they would be a constructive opposition. That didn't last long ...

In all fairness you cant say that about FF and not critisie the current go for doing the same thing.

FF would be better off pushing for political reform than opposing policies implemented to rescue us from their disaster and things they would have implemented if still in power.

What FF appear to be doing on average is opposing policies FG/LAB said they wouldn't be bringing in.(I dunno if this is the case with property tax or not)

thebman

Seloth wrote: »

In all fairness you cant say that about FF and not critisie the current go for doing the same thing.

When did FG say they would be a constructive opposition or what are you referring to here Got a link?

FF specifically said it:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/election/news/tds-speak-on-kenny-nomination-496565.html

What FF appear to be doing on average is opposing policies FG/LAB said they wouldn't be bringing in.(I dunno if this is the case with property tax or not)

The below if from the FG manifesto. I don't really think FF are trying to do what you say. I think they shut up for a while to let the dust settle after losing power and are now becoming more vocal in opposition and by Christmas will just be criticizing everything they do.

Funding Local Government: Fianna Fail’s proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by
2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair. But as we tackle the fiscal
crisis, we will have to cut central exchequer funding for local authorities, and we recognise that local authorities will have to find more sustainable sources of revenue appropriate to local circumstances. What
will be viewed as fair in South Dublin might be viewed as unworkable in rural Clare.
In this context, we will empower local authorities to put in place, following the 2014 local elections, fairer
alternatives to Fianna Fail’s and Labour’s recurring annual tax on the family home. The options would include:
• No extra local taxes, forcing local authorities to close non-priority services and / or to deliver increased
efficiencies;
• Increased local user charges for waste etc.; or
• The option of a local “site sale profits tax”. Such a tax would be levied on the profit made from the site
value on the sale of a residence (sales proceeds, less cost indexed by inflation, less stamp duty paid and
less home improvements)
The final measure might be considered as both fairer and more economically sensible than an annual
recurring property tax. Whichever option local electorates choose, for the first time since the 1970s local
government will have real independence from central government in deciding what services to provide at
local level and how to fund them.

Rubik.

It's Fianna Fail who agreed with the IMF/ECB that a site value tax, with a minimum charge of €100 per property, was to be introduced in 2012. It's in the 4 year plan they brought out last November. Trying to disown it just 9 months later is laughable alright.

jank

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They are just going through the motions of being an opposition, they've got nothing.

This!

What the Government will say FF will just oppose it.

raymon

FF should apologise for ruining our economy.

They should then disband.

goose2005

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They are just going through the motions of being an opposition, they've got nothing.

The odd thing is that the media (esp. RTE) insist on imagining them as the Dail opposition, when they have the least credibility in that role than anyone, except maybe Healy Rae

DJCR

Rubik. wrote: »

It's Fianna Fail who agreed with the IMF/ECB that a site value tax, with a minimum charge of €100 per property, was to be introduced in 2012. It's in the 4 year plan they brought out last November. Trying to disown it just 9 months later is laughable alright.

I think, the point Finnian McGrath was trying to make is that the Government now has around an extra Billion to play around with and yet the still seem to want to suck the life blood out of everyone in the country.

They have a list of cuts and the appear to be following through with them even though they could in fact soften the blow for many families (if only slightly - but every little counts)

Nijmegen

Fianna Fail are going through the motions. One gets the sense even they know they're only half heartedly throwing rocks at policies they themselves either introduced our would have introduced.

Likewise, were FG and Labour still in opposition they would be throwing the same rocks at these policies, harder.

Son Of A Vidic

Rubik. wrote: »

It's Fianna Fail who agreed with the IMF/ECB that a site value tax, with a minimum charge of €100 per property, was to be introduced in 2012. It's in the 4 year plan they brought out last November. Trying to disown it just 9 months later is laughable alright.

Your're not supposed to be remembering stuff like that, Micheál will be most upset.

end a eknny

thebman wrote: »

When did FG say they would be a constructive opposition or what are you referring to here Got a link?

FF specifically said it:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/election/news/tds-speak-on-kenny-nomination-496565.html




The below if from the FG manifesto. I don't really think FF are trying to do what you say. I think they shut up for a while to let the dust settle after losing power and are now becoming more vocal in opposition and by Christmas will just be criticizing everything they do.

i think they might be referring to the fact that when the f.f greens were in goverment . both f.g and labour where very vocal in opposition to the point where the country became a joke internationally and left a bad situation worse . as the country went down the toilet both f.g and labour couldnt contain there joy and where entusiastic and very vocal in opposition and had all the answers and now when in power they have no answers and continue to carry on f.f policies

end a eknny

raymon wrote: »

FF should apologise for ruining our economy.

They should then disband.

f.f should apoligise for running the country the way the majority of people wanted them to and if they hadnt f.g and lab would have loved the oppourtunity to.

thebman

end a eknny wrote: »

i think they might be referring to the fact that when the f.f greens were in goverment . both f.g and labour where very vocal in opposition to the point where the country became a joke internationally and left a bad situation worse . as the country went down the toilet both f.g and labour couldnt contain there joy and where entusiastic and very vocal in opposition and had all the answers and now when in power they have no answers and continue to carry on f.f policies

I'm sure that goes down very well down at the parish pump...

The country became a joke because of extremely poor policy. The entire world was laughing at our bad policy being implemented by FF and Brian Lenihan who won awards for being the worst finance minister in Europe ahead of Greece's finance minister!!
http://www.thejournal.ie/brian-lenihan-voted-worst-finance-minister-in-europe-2010-12/

Yeah it was all FG/Labours fault... :rolleyes:

Keep telling yourself that and eventually ... well no actually nobody will believe you except those also left in FF wondering why nobody likes them or accepts that they have apologised when it usually starts, we accept full responsibility but it wasn't our fault because... <insert random selected reason here>

But FG are the same, yet the people are happier taking pain from people that didn't cause the problem. Funny that. Almost like if you kick someone in the face and then try to treat them for it, they might not call it even...

end a eknny

thebman wrote: »

I'm sure that goes down very well down at the parish pump...

The country became a joke because of extremely poor policy. The entire world was laughing at our bad policy being implemented by FF and Brian Lenihan who won awards for being the worst finance minister in Europe ahead of Greece's finance minister!!
http://www.thejournal.ie/brian-lenihan-voted-worst-finance-minister-in-europe-2010-12/

Yeah it was all FG/Labours fault... :rolleyes:

Keep telling yourself that and eventually ... well no actually nobody will believe you except those also left in FF wondering why nobody likes them or accepts that they have apologised when it usually starts, we accept full responsibility but it wasn't our fault because... <insert random selected reason here>

But FG are the same, yet the people are happier taking pain from people that didn't cause the problem. Funny that. Almost like if you kick someone in the face and then try to treat them for it, they might not call it even...

and your not on stage why!!!!!!

Bullseye1

Most opposition politics is laughable. Most opposition parties would implement the same policies if in power.

maynooth_rules

end a eknny wrote: »

f.f should apoligise for running the country the way the majority of people wanted them to and if they hadnt f.g and lab would have loved the oppourtunity to.

FF never got more than 50% of the votes in any recent general election. A majority of people in this country saw through the gangster and rogue that is Bertie Ahern

xper

dixiefly wrote: »

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/7097/
Government fails to pass savings on to cash strapped households – Collins
Posted on 26/07/11 by Niall Collins

Fianna Fáil Environment Spokesperson Niall Collins ...
<snip>
“...The Taoiseach Enda Kenny last year made a solemn pledge to voters not to introduce extra taxes. Speaking on RTE’s Morning Ireland, he quoted George W Bush and said: “Read my lips, no more taxes” (09 September 2010). ...

Wrong Bush. Wrong phrasing.

It frightens me to think what shape we'd be in now if the bailout had occurred mid-term in a majority FF government and they were still at the rudder.

raymon

end a eknny wrote: »

f.f should apoligise for running the country the way the majority of people wanted them to and if they hadnt f.g and lab would have loved the oppourtunity to.

These people didn't know they were voting for corruption, perjury,theft,treason,incompetence, forgery, and misrepresentation

The extent of these FF traits were only fully exposed recently

raymon

DJCR wrote: »

I think, the point Finnian McGrath was trying to make is that the Government now has around an extra Billion to play around with and yet the still seem to want to suck the life blood out of everyone in the country.

They have a list of cuts and the appear to be following through with them even though they could in fact soften the blow for many families (if only slightly - but every little counts)

The government doesn't have a billion to " play around with ".

The days of FF throwing money around like it was toilet roll are gone

Ulysses Gaze

Rubik. wrote: »

It's Fianna Fail who agreed with the IMF/ECB that a site value tax, with a minimum charge of €100 per property, was to be introduced in 2012. It's in the 4 year plan they brought out last November. Trying to disown it just 9 months later is laughable alright.

The Government need to rebut this in the press then.

Only way to keep the Soldiers of Bankruptcy on the back foot is to play them at their own game.

murraykil

Same Civil Service ∴ Fine Gael in Government = Fianna Fáil in Government

Government and Opposition don't work together for the good of the people they represent ∴ Fianna Fáil in Opposition = Fine Gael in Opposition = Ignored, Redundant, Pointless

Site valuation tax to be contained in Finance Bill

A SITE valuation tax, generally regarded as a precursor to a property tax, will be contained in the fothcoming Finance Bill, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan has confirmed.

The Bill, due for publication on January 20th, will implement the Budget measures and contain proposed legislation to introduce a fixed household charge of €100 per annum in 2012.

A “value-based addition” will be introduced in 2013, Mr Lenihan said in response to a parliamentary question from the Labour Party’s finance spokeswoman, Joan Burton.

“Initial consultation on the implications of a recurrent annual tax on property has taken place with relevant stakeholders. Work is currently under way in preparation for relevant legislation to be published in Finance Bill 2011,” he said.

Mr Lenihan has been lobbied by Fianna Fáil backbenchers, including Michael Ahern (Cork South Central) and Chris Andrews (Dublin South East), to reverse Budget changes in relation to properties bought with Section 23 tax relief. The backbenchers say small-time investors, rather than large-scale speculators, are facing unanticipated tax bills and could go bankrupt.

Mr Andrews said “guards, teachers, and electricians” would be affected. “These aren’t the big guys,” he said.

Mr Andrews, Mr McGrath, who is chairman of the Oireachtas Finance Committee, and others have expressed confidence the Bill will contain an amendment when it is published next week.

A spokesman for the Department of Finance confirmed a large number of submissions had been received by Mr Lenihan. “I’m aware significant representations have been made in relation to Section 23,” he said. He said he was not aware whether amendments would be contained in the Bill.

Meanwhile, it has emerged almost 40 per cent of directors working at financial institutions when the Government’s bank guarantee scheme was introduced in September 2008 remain in their positions.

“Based on information supplied to me by the six covered institutions, 28 directors representing 38 per cent of those who were in office pre the introduction of the Government guarantee are still in situ,” Mr Lenihan confirmed.

He was responding to another parliamentary question from Ms Burton, who also asked him to name the directors. Mr Lenihan said: “I do not propose to list the names of those directors”. He added that 46 directors had left their positions since that time.

Mr Lenihan has also confirmed he will consider a “surtax” on bankers’ bonuses in the Finance Bill. Ms Burton asked for “the reason the obligations in respect of these bonuses was not either reviewed or made subject to emergency financial measures in the public interest in the form of a surtax or a ‘de minimis’ rule, whereby bonuses would be taxed at a minimum effective rate of circa 80 per cent”.

The Minister responded: “The question of a surtax is one which I will consider in the context of the forthcoming Finance Bill.”

The Government’s timetable for the passage of the Finance Bill through the Oireachtas has been circulated. The timetable means the holding of a general election in late March now looks virtually certain, with Friday, March 25th now considered a likely date.

Following its publication on Thursday next week, the Bill is intended to pass second stage the following week. A two-week period has been allocated for committee stage, with report stage a week later and completion of the Bill in the Seanad due by February 25th.

The Orb

For the lifetime of this government FF have no right to open their grubby dishonest crooked little mouths and criticise anything. They should be on their knees thankful that the Irish people haven't lynched each and every one of them. Cnuts.

theparish

We all know that Fianna Fail pissed money away all over the shop but there is one case that seems to stick in my head for some reason.Mary Hanafin was on the Marion Finucane show a few years ago if memory serves me correctly.International womans day or European womans week was coming up.Mary said that she had set aside 1 million euro for the occasion.When asked what she was going to spend the money on she said she did not know but would find something.Just seems to stick in my head.

goose2005

theparish wrote: »

We all know that Fianna Fail pissed money away all over the shop but there is one case that seems to stick in my head for some reason.Mary Hanafin was on the Marion Finucane show a few years ago if memory serves me correctly.International womans day or European womans week was coming up.Mary said that she had set aside 1 million euro for the occasion.When asked what she was going to spend the money on she said she did not know but would find something.Just seems to stick in my head.

I remember the ludicrous term "giveaway budget" - it's our money, how can FF "give" it to us.

end a eknny

maynooth_rules wrote: »

FF never got more than 50% of the votes in any recent general election. A majority of people in this country saw through the gangster and rogue that is Bertie Ahern

they may not have voted for bertie so they voted for f,g who would have followed the same policies so in fact the majority where in favour of the policies applied by f.f

end a eknny

goose2005 wrote: »

I remember the ludicrous term "giveaway budget" - it's our money, how can FF "give" it to us.

that was the problem it wasnt our money sure we wernt paying any tax

maynooth_rules

end a eknny wrote: »

they may not have voted for bertie so they voted for f,g who would have followed the same policies so in fact the majority where in favour of the policies applied by f.f

Tbf FF were promising everything under the sun to the electorate, and many of the electorate fell for it and fell for the swine that was and still is Bertie Ahern.
FG support was dying out and it sure as hell was not going to pick up if they oppossed many of the aspects of the 'give away' budgets of FG. It didnt matter what policies FG put forward at that time, too many people were blinded by the cult of Bertie and look where it has got us

thebman

end a eknny wrote: »

that was the problem it wasnt our money sure we wernt paying any tax

Speak for yourself.

end a eknny

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Tbf FF were promising everything under the sun to the electorate, and many of the electorate fell for it and fell for the swine that was and still is Bertie Ahern.
FG support was dying out and it sure as hell was not going to pick up if they oppossed many of the aspects of the 'give away' budgets of FG. It didnt matter what policies FG put forward at that time, too many people were blinded by the cult of Bertie and look where it has got us

it is widely believed that while the general public where sick of bertie and f.f during the 2002 election. the reason that they where reelected was because they where afraid to let f.g loose on the ecconomy and yet when the ecconomy is in the ****ter who do we elect. strange

end a eknny

thebman wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

so you where paying more than your fair share of tax, so you where a property developer or a landowner

thebman

end a eknny wrote: »

so you where paying more than your fair share of tax, so you where a property developer or a landowner

end a eknny wrote: »

that was the problem it wasnt our money sure we wernt paying any tax

Moving the goal posts :rolleyes:

You really must be hardcore FF.

raymon

end a eknny wrote: »

it is widely believed that while the general public where sick of bertie and f.f during the 2002 election. the reason that they where reelected was because they where afraid to let f.g loose on the ecconomy and yet when the ecconomy is in the ****ter who do we elect. strange

It is widely believed by who ??
Nobody believes that except for ogra FFers

Monty Burnz

end a eknny wrote: »

it is widely believed that while the general public where sick of bertie and f.f during the 2002 election. the reason that they where reelected was because they where afraid to let f.g loose on the ecconomy and yet when the ecconomy is in the ****ter who do we elect. strange

Yeah, we should have elected Fianna Failure again...

Seriously, don't you think it's possible the electorate made a mistake by voting for the corrupt morons again and again? Which is why I ultimately blame the Irish people for their ruination.

If you give the reins of power to Fianna Failure, you deserve what's coming to you.

end a eknny

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yeah, we should have elected Fianna Failure again...

Seriously, don't you think it's possible the electorate made a mistake by voting for the corrupt morons again and again? Which is why I ultimately blame the Irish people for their ruination.

If you give the reins of power to Fianna Failure, you deserve what's coming to you.

i wouldnt have f.f or f.g running a pissup in a brewery

end a eknny

raymon wrote: »

It is widely believed by who ??
Nobody believes that except for ogra FFers

then you tell me why the intelligent people of ireland voted repeatedly for f.f

OhNoYouDidn't

end a eknny wrote: »

then you tell me why the intelligent people of ireland voted repeatedly for f.f

Did they? I always thought it was grubby culchie gombeens and self interested public servents.

I do not know of one born and bred Dub who ever voted for them

end a eknny

thebman wrote: »

Moving the goal posts :rolleyes:

You really must be hardcore FF.

no just worried that f.g or the people that we are depending on to save us. fianna fail may have been asleep at the wheel driving for a cliff but now we have f.g and lab who have never driven before trying to stop us going over. now all we need is the imf and e.u to explain to them which pedal is the brake and which is the accelerator.

end a eknny

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Did they? I always thought it was grubby culchie gombeens and self interested public servents.

I do not know of one born and bred Dub who ever voted for them

really was bertie not a true dub. man of the people and salt of the earth. i for one never trusted him and that wasnt just because he was a devious two faced jackeen coward

OhNoYouDidn't

end a eknny wrote: »

really was bertie not a true dub. man of the people and salt of the earth. i for one never trusted him and that wasnt just because he was a devious two faced jackeen coward

He was. But were any of his mafia Dubs?

FF in Dublin is an immigrant thing. Like the Gah, very few locals indulge

end a eknny

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He was. But were any of his mafia Dubs?

FF in Dublin is an immigrant thing. Like the Gah, very few locals indulge

and yet they all jump on the bandwagon

Monty Burnz

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Did they? I always thought it was grubby culchie gombeens and self interested public servents.

I do not know of one born and bred Dub who ever voted for them

Ah come on now.

OhNoYouDidn't

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Ah come on now.

True story

All the FF voters I know are migrant workers.

end a eknny

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

True story

All the FF voters I know are migrant workers.

arent all dubs migrant workers of some class

Monty Burnz

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

True story

All the FF voters I know are migrant workers.

By the way - and I can say this as someone born in Dublin, and someone who has lived in cities his whole life - it's always amusing to see people from Dublin acting like they are urban sophisticates from a real city, as opposed to big city wannabes from a small backwater town on a backwater island on the fringes of civilisation.

As my granny used to say, 'tuppence ha'penny looking down on tuppence'.