Irish Catholics who opposed the Roman Catholic Church in 20th-century Ireland?

Dionysus

There are many voices now saying how terrible the RCC was, but what voices in 20th-century Catholic Ireland were hostile to the power of the Roman Catholic Church throughout their lives?

Peadar O'Donnell (1893 -1986) of Donegal is the only one that I can think of but I suspect there are many others from the same socio-economic-political viewpoint - i.e. socialist republican - who shared his hostility particularly after anti-Treaty IRA soldiers were excommunicated by the aforementioned RCC. O'Donnell pissed off, well, most people in 20th-century Ireland. He fought against the fascists and the Roman church in the Spanish Civil War and in Ireland drew down the hatred of the big farmers, shopkeepers and Roman Church at various stages throughout his life. He wasn't perfect by any means, but he was quite good at being hostile to authority figures. The fact that my big farmer relatives shiver when I mention the name of Peadar O'Donnell is about as good a recommendation as I can get. hehe.

Moving Hearts (Christy Moore et al) composed this 'Tribute to Peadar O'Donnell' for their 1985 album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo57L-9fjtA

Anyway, what other people in 20th-century Catholic Ireland opposed the power of the Roman Catholic Church? Enda Kenny's predecessors are not among them, and that's for certain - particularly the Fine Gael taoiseach John A. Costello who infamously declared in April 1951: “I am an Irishman second, I am a Catholic first, and I accept without qualification in all respects the teaching of the hierarchy and the church to which I belong.”

orourkeda

a church thread

wow

double GG

What's with the mass influx in church threads this time of the year?




*No pun intended

Dionysus

orourkeda wrote: »

a church thread

wow

orourkeda having another dickhead comment

wow.

wonderfulname

perhaps you should be asking the history buffs?

orourkeda

Dionysus wrote: »

orourkeda having another dickhead comment

wow.

Aww. Did i hurt your feelings?

Dionysus

orourkeda wrote: »

Aww. Did i hurt your feelings?

Deeply, as always, orourkeda. I'm just surprised you managed to not blame the Irish language for something in your past two posts. You'll get there, no doubt.

Dionysus

wonderfulname wrote: »

perhaps you should be asking the history buffs?

Perhaps, but as one of them who frequents Afterhours I suspect there are others around and others still who just know of people who made a stand against the RCC. For instance, some time ago a taxi driver from Ballyer gave me a lift and was telling me that some guy was chased out of Ballyfermot a few decades ago because the RCC there organised a campaign against him for being a "marxist". I haven't a clue about the guy's name, but there are undoubtedly people who know of him, and others, who were condemned for standing up against the RCC.

There's something a bit unsettling about so many conservative Irish Catholics suddenly feigning outrage and ignorance of what the RCC has been presiding over in Ireland for a long time now.

orourkeda

Dionysus wrote: »

Deeply, as always, orourkeda. I'm just surprised you managed to not blame the Irish language for something in your past two posts. You'll get there, no doubt.

Get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Are you having your period?

Dionysus

orourkeda wrote: »

Get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Are you having your period?

Misogyny and an inability to offer intelligent argument in a single post. Your talents have surpassed you once again, orourkeda.

orourkeda

Dionysus wrote: »

Misogyny and an inability to offer intelligent argument in a single post. Your talents have surpassed you once again, orourkeda.

I really dont understand why you are trying to start an unnecessary argument. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me.

wonderfulname

Dionysus wrote: »

There's something a bit unsettling about so many conservative Irish Catholics suddenly feigning outrage and ignorance of what the RCC has been presiding over in Ireland for a long time now.

There's innocence in it too though, people used to be very isolated and quite reliant on the church, the outrage is very much a reaction to broken trust, I don't think it's feigned however I don't see them moving in opposition of the church any time soon. Remember Catholicism has a lot of unique beliefs, just because somebody has an issue with those preaching doesn't mean they have an issue with the general message of the religion.

Toby Take a Bow

Most of the replies in this thread seem to be snippy comments by Dionysus and orourkeda. Interesting.

Would Noel Browne be considered to have spent his lifetime standing up to the church? He certainly seemed to spend a lot of time getting ****ed by them (not in a literal sense, thankfully).

Ghost Buster

orourkeda wrote: »

a church thread

wow

Do you have staff to help you always be first in with this?

orourkeda

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Do you have staff to help you always be first in with this?

No. Quite the opposite in fact.

Ghost Buster

orourkeda wrote: »

No. Quite the opposite in fact.

Ah. You never sleep and can never resist posting in these threads:D

Dionysus

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Would Noel Browne be considered to have spent his lifetime standing up to the church? He certainly seemed to spend a lot of time getting ****ed by them (not in a literal sense, thankfully).

Browne, like everybody else, had failings. But on the Church he was comparatively brave - and stabbed in the back by McBride for being so. Indeed, the quote above from Costello, the Taoiseach in the government Browne was a member of, was in direct reply to Browne's 'Mother and Child' proposal.

So, yes, now we have:

1. Peadar O'Donnell and
2. Noel Browne

Badgermonkey

Dr. Noel Browne would strike me as the most obvious name. Elected as a TD for Clann na Poblachta, his implementation of the Mother and Child healthcare scheme as Minister for Health brought him into conflict with the RCC and the pernicious John Charles McQuaid in particular.

In 1950, Browne proposed introducing a scheme which would provide free maternity care for all mothers and free healthcare for all children up to the age of sixteen, regardless of income. It met with ferocious opposition from conservative elements in the Catholic hierarchy and the medical profession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

krudler

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Ah. You never sleep and can never resist posting in these threads:D

over 15k posts and barely one of them is more than a line long I'd bet

orourkeda

wonderfulname wrote: »

There's innocence in it too though, people used to be very isolated and quite reliant on the church, the outrage is very much a reaction to broken trust, I don't think it's feigned however I don't see them moving in opposition of the church any time soon. Remember Catholicism has a lot of unique beliefs, just because somebody has an issue with those preaching doesn't mean they have an issue with the general message of the religion.

Therien lies a very important distinction in my view.

One cant defend the indefensible i.e the cover up of child abuse, however, this is down to human nature and a badly run organisation rather than any defect with the roman catholic faith as such.

Ghost Buster

krudler wrote: »

over 15k posts and barely one of them is more than a line long I'd bet

Me
or
orourkeda
?

Dionysus

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Me
or
orourkeda
?

I think he meant the other fella.

orourkeda

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Ah. You never sleep and can never resist posting in these threads:D

I didn't think my initial post would stir such a reaction. I thought it was relatively inoffensive.

Wolfe Tone

Dionysus, you are wasted on AH!

krudler

orourkeda wrote: »

I didn't think my initial post would stir such a reaction. I thought it was relatively inoffensive.

every thread about the church on AH is usually you with first reply with "oh, another church thread" and zero else to contribute, if you dont like church threads, dont post in them, simples. Not having a go, its just not everyone is on AH all the time and knows whats past the first page of threads so adding nothing but a sarcastic few words is kinda tiresome

orourkeda

krudler wrote: »

over 15k posts and barely one of them is more than a line long I'd bet

I'm sure you've read all of them.

krudler

orourkeda wrote: »

I'm sure you've read all of them.

wouldnt take me long, they're about 5 words a post :pac:

Latchy

Dionysus wrote: »

There's something a bit unsettling about so many conservative Irish Catholics suddenly feigning outrage and ignorance of what the RCC has been presiding over in Ireland for a long time now.

Before everything came out in the open there was always a fear of speaking out against the status quo and was much easier to toe the line with planet catholic church but you are right , it's a bit like the german population saying they didn't know the concentration camps existed a few miles from their own doorsteps although I'm know that's a much more horrific and extreme example of indifference .

The church had it talons and influence in every aspect of Irish society and as soon as any group or individual spoke out you would have an army of people just waiting to shut them up so yes ,conformity was the order of the day .You only have to look at old recordings of the late late show were there was either a priest or two on the guest list or in the audience to keep any non catholic or alternative views on topics or subjects ( good or bad ) in their place .

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Dr. Noel Browne would strike me as the most obvious name. Elected as a TD for Clann na Poblachta, his implementation of the Mother and Child healthcare scheme as Minister for Health brought him into conflict with the RCC and the pernicious John Charles McQuaid in particular.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

^ perfect example of the church shutting down somebody with different views ,opinions ,ideas and approachs to matters other than theirs at the time .

Toby Take a Bow

Dionysus wrote: »

Browne, like everybody else, had failings.

Failings with regard to standing up to the Church?

orourkeda

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Failings with regard to standing up to the Church?

Nobody did it until fairly recently. Even people who had first hand experience of what was going on failed to intervene.

biko

Please use the Christianity forum for this one.