Beware: Freethinking to become a "Mental Disorder"

Naikon

"Although the authors of the manual claim no ulterior motives but simply better diagnostic practices, the labeling of freethinking and nonconformity as mental illnesses has a lot of potential for abuse. It can easily become a weapon in the arsenal of a repressive state[1]."

Looking at the "criteria" for ODD[2], it would appear that this "disorder" lacks empirical evidence in support of a biological basis for the illness. Even more troubling, is the lack of a standard clinical testing mechanisms:

"There is no standard test for diagnosing ODD."

So, what are your thoughts? Does ODD have any real merit beyond a simple label for opressing those that do not conform to societal norms, or do you believe this disorder to be a real medical problem?

[1] http://www.offthegridnews.com/2010/10/08/is-free-thinking-a-mental-illness/
[2] http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Oppositional-defiant-disorder.html

Sparticle

Freethinking becoming a mental disorder now?

Over exaggerate much? :rolleyes:

I'll admit I'm no expert in these issues but looking at ODD diagnosed kids in my mother's primary school class ODD in children is quite real and very very destructive in the sphere of education. Try teaching a child(7-10) to read(They are usually noticeably behind the rest of the class at this stage) when he/she starts running around the classroom screaming. I know some will say that's just him/her being a kid but at 7-10 it starts becoming a serious issue.

It's starts getting a bit iffy in older kids. I would personally just call them spiteful little contrarians who disagree not because they believe they are correct but because it's the opposite to what the majority think. I wouldn't personally be comfortable with ODD diagnoses at that age unless the kid is really messed up.

Naikon

Sparticle wrote: »

Freethinking becoming a mental disorder now?

Over exaggerate much? :rolleyes:

I'll admit I'm no expert in these issues but looking at ODD diagnosed kids in my mother's primary school class ODD in children is quite real and very very destructive in the sphere of education. Try teaching a child(7-10) to read(They are usually noticeably behind the rest of the class at this stage) when he/she starts running around the classroom screaming. I know some will say that's just him/her being a kid but at 7-10 it starts becoming a serious issue.

Perhaps these children are potentially suffering from an undiagnosed medical issue? For example, Autism is well known to contain a neurological component. ODD on the other hand, does not. Therein lies a problem with the diagnosis of ODD - The potential for abuse given a lack of hard verification through potential gene testing.

Here is something to mull over. Not definitive, but more links will come in time:

http://journals.lww.com/co-neurology/Abstract/2011/04000/The_neurology_of_autism_spectrum_disorders.8.aspx

In other news, try not to think too much: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11340881

Torakx

Heh you beat me to it Naikon
Reading those articles on ODD all i was thinking was Aspergers over and over.
Alot of those symptoms are prevailent in children with autism.
Especially disobeying authority and acting out in apparently strange ways to others.
The thing about autism is, different people have different symptoms(and spectrums) so no one is exactly the same,although for sure certain personality traits shine through.
That ODD thing does look like a load of bollllox.Seems they will soon have medication for all traits until we are living a life similar to that in the film Equilibrium lol

ed2hands

Sparticle wrote: »

Freethinking becoming a mental disorder now?

Over exaggerate much? :rolleyes:

I'll admit I'm no expert in these issues

Oh that's abundantly clear old chap by the rest of your spiteful assumptions. How dare these kids have a "very very destructive" influence in your "sphere of education"! Oh just diagnose 'em, drug 'em and send them to the back of the class eh? God forbid they get in the way of your education system. How dare they. "The little contrarians".

One of the most "up your own arse" posts i've read in a long time:)
Well done there fruitcake:pac:

Mod Note: User banned for this post

ed2hands

Apologies Naikon. Will do my upmost to listen rather than rant as this has the potential to be another most excellent thread like your last one here.

clever_name

ed2hands wrote: »

Oh that's abundantly clear old chap by the rest of your spiteful assumptions. How dare these kids have a "very very destructive" influence in your "sphere of education"! Oh just diagnose 'em, drug 'em and send them to the back of the class eh? God forbid they get in the way of your education system. How dare they. "The little contrarians".

One of the most "up your own arse" posts i've read in a long time:)
Well done there fruitcake:pac:

Irony is a savage beast...

Poster stated they were not an expert, explained what they thought and why in a reasonable and polite manner and your responce is to add nothing of value, just some mild abuse.

Remember when you posted this?

ed2hands wrote: »

If people want to come on here and give their opinions, thats their right.

Of course that just my opinion.

ed2hands

clever_name wrote: »

Irony is a savage beast...

Poster stated they were not an expert, explained what they thought and why in a reasonable and polite manner and your responce is to add nothing of value, just some mild abuse.

Remember when you posted this?

Of course that just my opinion.

And you're entitled to that opinion my good man!:o
It's your right and many have suffered and died for that right. Wouldn't dream of any form of censorship whatsoever as my quote above subscribes to.

Sparticles politeness or lack thereof in his/her response to the original post is a matter that doesn't really bother me either way in this instance.

But of course if he/she wants to put forth his/her ill thought-out, spiteful, juvenile and conceited views on the psychiatry and diagnosing of childhood experiences as he/she just did, i wouldn't dream of denying him/her that opportunity. Just as he/she wouldn't dream of deny me my say i presume...

Irony is a savage beast is it? A bit evasive for me mate. Your point being? Please don't be shy if you think i'm talking out of my ring on any particular issue. Would be curious to find out what that refers to but maybe you want to hide behind your innuendo for the moment...

Torakx

The thing about society today is we have mostly all become accustomed to being tamed and obedient to social rules even if they are ridiculous.
I love seeing people walking around dressed in mad colours or just being very different and expressing themselves.
That to me shows a personality trait in some respects and one that i think is rooted in a small way with disobeying authority,in that case the authority being social dress codes implemented by magazines,tv and highstreet shops.

These people who are free thinkers and have a high resistance to social engineering, are or will be soon a danger to the new world order of things that is shaping up.
Unless you have a dog collar around your neck like Lady Gaga or Beyonce etc this will or is probably seen as a threat.
Was watching a documentary about American fusion centers where they gather info on people, some of them just for having political stickers on their cars.
If these are as effective in controlling americans as they seem to be, it will be partly implemented over in europe eventually.Like many things before.
Mental disorders might be at the top of their list too,when you consider recent events in Norway and others before in the states.

So with all that in mind i am not suprised a diagnoses for the "disorder" of having your own mind has a chance of entering into psychiatry.
Sell more drugs,control more people,win win.

Naikon

Interesting stuff lads. I will be a bit busy over teh next two days, but I will dig up some relevant material and place it here over the weekend. The basic premise is to allow discussion of any material that relates to the topic at hand - the apparent and willfull subduing of "Freethinking" or even just plain common sense is potentially being pushed out in favour of this semi docile "Monkey see, monkey do" attitude in relation to acceptance of Authority. Don't ever question the process or "experts", they say.

The intention is to allow any decent material that may support the notion that our "superiors" would really favour people not to exercise their own individual judgement. The very first post supports an alarming movement towards that trend. It's not just about simply bashing Psychiatry anymore. While the mods won't allow rampant OT discussion, some off topic chat may follow.

The premise may sound a bit "Juvenile" or "stick it to the man" for the average person, but I promise this thread will hopefully rattle a few brain cells in those that choose not to blindly follow the path of least resistance. If we allow people to be labelled at the level of granularity apparent in the next revision of the DSM for instance, I genuinely fear for society as a whole.

More to come:)

*PS - I hope the two "Yes" votes are taking the piss. Really*

Naikon

In the meantime, here are some witty thought provoking quotes to mull over: link

studiorat

Interesting stuff, but it occurs to me that ODD isn't exactly free thinking. It seems to be simply opposing authority for the sake of it or to attract attention. Where the only judgment is just to go against that authority simply because of what it is.

For example; a school teacher tells a class that the "powers that be" are the ruling elite and have enslaved us all etc. A child who has ODD tendencies will contradict that teacher simply because the teacher is the figure of authority.

The symptoms are as follows :

• Often loses temper
• often argues with adults
• often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
• often deliberately annoys people
• often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
• is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
• is often angry and resentful
• is often spiteful and vindictive

How many of the above would you call the actions of a free thinker?

nyarlothothep

I think there should be a condition for excessive acceptance of authority. Many political leaders, CEOs and other figures of status and authority have been diagnosed with a range of mental disorders yet its ok for them because people with EAA confuse strength/power with competency.

studiorat

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think there should be a condition for excessive acceptance of authority. Many political leaders, CEOs and other figures of status and authority have been diagnosed with a range of mental disorders yet its ok for them because people with EAA confuse strength/power with competency.

That's a bit of a generalization to be honest and a bit elitist too. Real free thinking is the ability to see things from all perspectives and make an informed decision. Not just to automatically assume because someone decides to accept an authority it is a weakness, that's just jumping on the band wagon.

Thought crime does not entail death..
Thought crime is death..

Naikon

Given the nature of this discussion, maybe it's best to discuss this in a private forum? I do not want to further antagonise people suffering from real Mental problems such as Depression. Tis very real, but I fear the Industry is potentially freeloading on individual plight for profit reasons. No amount of argument can discredit the actual existence of Mental Anguish. The high suicide rate in this country alone reflects that. I do not believe in the chemical imbalance stuff. However, the industry practices and theories have a tendancy to out of whack

So - private forum perhaps? I cannot stress the industry should be called into question, not individual plight. I feel this discussion should lead to potential ideas for reform. The typical chemical solution won't do longterm for most sufferers.

jimmycrackcorm

Naikon wrote: »

Given the nature of this discussion, maybe it's best to discuss this in a private forum? I do not want to further antagonise people suffering from real Mental problems such as .

There you go, even here there's an excuse. Way to go conspiracy forum.!

Naikon

I have taken the hint:)

~Adios

Perplexed4

The idea that disobedience is an illness and the fact that so many grown adults take this notion seriously is a testament to just how crazy western civilisation has become. I provide some links for the purpose of enlightement.:)
http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/articles/item/91-naughty-boys?-sept/oct-2005:)
http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/articles/item/199-not-mad-or-bad-just-scared-jun-07:)
http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/articles/item/81-blame-the-child-nov/dec-2003:)

locked_out

Any1 read these?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2011/0811/1224302221300.html

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/187351/20110726/america-conned-psycho-pharma-drug-pushing-empire-under-fire.htm

Obelisk

Interesting... Most people I know already may view free thinking as a mental disorder without even knowing it. Anything spoken of that they might perceive to be outside of the herd mentality is immediatly classed as 'mental'. Just because they have never thought like so before... Certain words will have this effect on there own even...

ie conspiracy = mental!

I have to laugh at these types of people although I was one before.

It is a product of social conditioning surely.

ed2hands

This issue is all over the papers today.

"Over-prescribing of Ritalin/Prozac has reached epidemic porportions. Recent figures show 650,000 children aged between eight and 13 are on the pscyhotropic drug, up from just 9,000 two decades ago."

And that's not the States. It's England!
That's 20% or 1 in 5 children in England that have been given a pscyhotropic drug.
A ****ing disgrace.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8763431/Shy-children-at-risk-of-being-diagnosed-with-mental-disorder.html

Daithi 1

ed2hands wrote: »

This issue is all over the papers today.

"Over-prescribing of Ritalin/Prozac has reached epidemic porportions. Recent figures show 650,000 children aged between eight and 13 are on the pscyhotropic drug, up from just 9,000 two decades ago."

And that's not the States. It's England!
That's 20% or 1 in 5 children in England that have been given a pscyhotropic drug.
A ****ing disgrace.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8763431/Shy-children-at-risk-of-being-diagnosed-with-mental-disorder.html

Mentallers !!!

Full.Duck

George Orwell was right :eek: . . . . kinda

Genghiz Cohen

studiorat wrote: »

The symptoms are as follows :

• Often loses temper
• often argues with adults
• often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
• often deliberately annoys people
• often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
• is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
• is often angry and resentful
• is often spiteful and vindictive

How many of the above would you call the actions of a free thinker?

That's a teenager!

studiorat

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

That's a teenager!

I suppose, all the need is a ride though.

Treora

Thinkers never had a chance

What are you thinking

Are you lieing

No really are you?

The funny thing is is that India has already used fMRIs to convict, however every scientist worth their salt will tell you that blood flow shown in fMRIs has little to do with complex neural reactions. Sure the white coat fear affect shows that.

However it might be useful to hook up some thermal cameras to politicians on the spin. The only problem is getting an accurate base line. Some brown envelops would be required, followed by "are you happy now?".

Monty Burnz

Treora wrote: »

Thinkers never had a chance

What are you thinking

Are you lieing

No really are you?

I may be missing something obvious here (it's been known to happen) but what do the three items linked have to do with being allowed to think?

Zombienosh

yeah it is a mental disorder according to most people i know, as soon as i open my mouth about any of my beliefs on topics i get the, aww poor crazy fella talking rubbish, hes not watching enough x-factor.

Treora

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I may be missing something obvious here (it's been known to happen) but what do the three items linked have to do with being allowed to think?

The designer of the 'truth checker' that uses thermal imagining of eyes (link 2) stated that they would be great for airports. Can't find the podcast.

So if someone was returning home, a flight from the USA to Ireland, but hated that they paid high taxes and saw so much legalised corruption, and then was asked by airport security "do you hold any ill will towards the country to which you are travelling". If you say no then it shows up as a lie then go to inspection room 1, if you say yes then go to inspection room 2. Free thinking is now illegal if you want to fly.

TheyKnowMyIP

"there is no definition of a mental disorder. It’s bull****. I mean, you just can’t define it"

-Allen Frances, Head editor of the DSM-IV

hooradiation

Here's the wired article that quote was cherry picked from, in case anyone values context over a soundbite.