CAS Contador case decision imminent...

TheBlaaMan

.....well, no actually.

Not until NOVEMBER 2011 it seems......

He might be able to string it out until after TdF:2012 at this rate

:rolleyes:

Guybrush T

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

.....well, no actually.

Not until NOVEMBER 2011 it seems......

He might be able to string it out until after TdF:2012 at this rate

:rolleyes:

To be fair, according to that link, it's WADA that requested the extension.

Chips Lovell

Disappointing but not surprising, I suppose. Given the nature of the case (minute traces of the drug, etc.) I'm sure WADA don't want to cut any corners on this one. The ruling could be as significant as the first biopassport suspensions.

RobFowl

It's a total mess TBH. The facts haven't and wont change. He had clenbuterol in his system which is banned. He claims it came from a contaminated steak. It's up to him to prove that. Why delay it more??????

Chips Lovell

Is it not possible that the CAS could decide that the rule itself is unfair?

Pherekydes

RobFowl wrote: »

It's a total mess TBH. The facts haven't and wont change. He had clenbuterol in his system which is banned. He claims it came from a contaminated steak. It's up to him to prove that. Why delay it more??????

It's not up to him to prove anything. He's been cleared by the Spanish federation. The UCI and WADA appealed that decision to CAS, so CAS will decide if WADA and UCI have anything to overturn the [Spanish Federation's] decision.

I'm guessing that since WADA are asking for a delay they don't actually have anything. As you said, the facts won't change.

ednwireland

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not up to him to prove anything. He's been cleared by the Spanish federation. The UCI and WADA appealed that decision to CAS, so CAS will decide if WADA and UCI have anything to overturn the [Spanish Federation's] decision.

I'm guessing that since WADA are asking for a delay they don't actually have anything. As you said, the facts won't change.

this i think is now the problem, cas have to have something to go against the spanish federations decision with

RobFowl

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not up to him to prove anything. He's been cleared by the Spanish federation. The UCI and WADA appealed that decision to CAS, so CAS will decide if WADA and UCI have anything to overturn the [Spanish Federation's] decision.

I'm guessing that since WADA are asking for a delay they don't actually have anything. As you said, the facts won't change.

Technically all they need to do is prove procedural mistakes in the Spanish Fed case then it fall back on Contador.

Either way this is going to end badly. An innocent rider will have had his named dragged through the mud for almost 2 years or else WADA will be seen to be cumbersome, indecisive and confused.

petethedrummer

Whether he gets off or not, I'd say the whole case has put the frighteners up a few DS's.

Jawgap

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's not up to him to prove anything. He's been cleared by the Spanish federation. The UCI and WADA appealed that decision to CAS, so CAS will decide if WADA and UCI have anything to overturn the [Spanish Federation's] decision.

I'm guessing that since WADA are asking for a delay they don't actually have anything. As you said, the facts won't change.

Legally, that's correct - he has to prove nothing, but there's a world of difference between being acquitted on the facts being acquitted by virtue of a procedural or technical flaw.

I would've thought he'd want to get into the hearing, lay his story before them and get a result. If he is confident of his position he should be confident of getting an acquittal on the facts.

ROK ON

It is my opinion given his team history and the clenbutorol incident that he is a doper. However opinions are just that. they are not legal facts.

If the doping authorities and cycling authorities are unable to bring a case within a reasonable period of time, then the case should be dropped and the rider, simply warned.

The first culprit in this was Bertie. The second, but larger culprit IMHO are the authorities involved. If it takes over 17 months to prove something then honestly, I am not interested. Forget about it and move on to cases that can be prosecuted.

ROK ON

petethedrummer wrote: »

Whether he gets off or not, I'd say the whole case has put the frighteners up a few DS's.

I cant see how that is the case. I think this case could end up showing that proving that someone doped is not a binary issue. If that is what comes out of this then the passporting system could lose credibility and doping could actually start increasing once again (I am presuming that it has been diminishng).

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

I cant see how that is the case. I think this case could end up showing that proving that someone doped is not a binary issue. If that is what comes out of this then the passporting system could lose credibility and doping could actually start increasing once again (I am presuming that it has been diminishng).

Evidence is rarely incontrovertible. The passport system is based on beyond reasonable doubt, i.e. false positives less than 1/1000 or whatever, using statistical models.

Like the rest of the legal system, some guilty people will inevitably be let off in order to reduce the number of falsely accused innocents to near zero.

petethedrummer

If Contador is let off Fuyu Li should be given his job back.

RobFowl

Lumen wrote: »

Evidence is rarely incontrovertible. The passport system is based on beyond reasonable doubt, i.e. false positives less than 1/1000 or whatever, using statistical models.

Like the rest of the legal system, some guilty people will inevitably be let off in order to reduce the number of falsely accused innocents to near zero.

The passport system is a guideline system which indicated possible or probable suspicious changes.
Contadors is a straightforward failed test for a banned substance.
The proof that it came from a steak from Spain is from what is in the public domain tenuous at best.
There is also no threshold level for clenbuterol and the principle of athletes strict liability is supposed to apply.
I'm with ROK ON here , if they can't prove a case (with a failed test) after over a year drop it and move on....

Jawgap

I hope when the national championships were in Monaghan no one ate the steak

Angel dust find 'a bolt out of the blue'

ROK ON

petethedrummer wrote: »

If Contador is let off Fuyu Li should be given his job back.

That is key.

All is see indoping cases is that in many cases small two bit journeyman pros get the book thrown at them. However for 'champions' that fail a doping test, it is rarely that simple. It drags on and on. We have seen this a few years back in Italy when several high profile riders that failed tests get off on technicalities.
It is not a fair or transparent system. Unlike high crimes where it takes time to collect evidence, justice in doping cases should be swift, far and transparent. I see no evidence that this is the case.
If this were a civil crime in these Isles, the DPPs office would have droped the case a long time ago due to the inability to convict.

@ Lumen, yes the price of a fair legal system is 'let 1000 guilty men go free before 1 innocent man is punished' - yet the length of time with which it is taking the various bodies to mount a case suggest to me that they dont have the evidence.
This is like Lance all over again. We need to get beyond this bullsh1t.

TinyExplosions

+1 on what ROK_ON (and t'others) are saying, we need a swift resolution, or let it drop.

I still don't see why it should take this long, as the facts are fairly simple. According to the rules, any trace of Clenbuterol warrants a ban, and Contador had Clenbuterol in his system.

Also according to the rules, the burden of proof as to the source of the Clenbuterol entirely rests on Contadors shoulders -he has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Clenbuterol came from tainted beef, and presumably he did that to the Spanish federations satisfactions.

CAS should really only be looking at the evidence provided by Contador to the Spanish authorities, and should be looking at their ruling and the reasons why they think there's enough doubt to let him off, and rule based on that evidence, and the UCI rules that there are no limits on Clenbuterol.

I don't think there should be any extra evidence or anything allowed in arbitration, as surely it's supposed to be there to see if the Spanish authorities made the right decision? Any extra evidence that is provided means that the Spanish board made their mind up on incomplete evidence, which makes a mockery of the process is yet another way.

Also have to feel sorry for Fuyu Li who, if Contador is let off, should start a fucking massive class action lawsuit against all concerned, jet on the principle of the matter -he'd have a damn good case that his reputation has been ruined unfairly

Chips Lovell

Can the CAS overturn the rule though? That you are responsible for even trace amounts of certain drugs? Is this what WADA are worried about?

And I'm not surprised that cases for high profile athletes drag on longer than the journeymen. The likes of Contador can afford plenty of lawyers.

Chips Lovell

Not just Contador's case that's dragging on. Mosquera's hasn't even cleared the Spanish Federation yet.

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

Can the CAS overturn the rule though? That you are responsible for even trace amounts of certain drugs? Is this what WADA are worried about?

And I'm not surprised that cases for high profile athletes drag on longer than the journeymen. The likes of Contador can afford plenty of lawyers.

I don't think it's up to CAS to overturn any rules as such, the Spanish federation are the ones that have effectively said that the trace amounts rule is rubbish, all CAS would do is say that they are correct, or that the UCI's rules are clear and that the Spanish feds should have sanctioned him. I think it's a subtle difference, but important

ROK ON

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I don't think it's up to CAS to overturn any rules as such, the Spanish federation are the ones that have effectively said that the trace amounts rule is rubbish, all CAS would do is say that they are correct, or that the UCI's rules are clear and that the Spanish feds should have sanctioned him. I think it's a subtle difference, but important

Thats the point, there are either rules that need enforcing or guidlines that can be interpreted. It is just confusing, if the authorities are confused as to whther they are RULES or GUIDELINES. They can't be both.

AG2R

I have to laugh at people saying Alberto is dragging this out now :pac:
clearly states WADA are looking for it. I'm sure he would rather this be over already wether it will be good or bad for him.

TinyExplosions

ROK ON wrote: »

Thats the point, there are either rules that need enforcing or guidlines that can be interpreted. It is just confusing, if the authorities are confused as to whther they are RULES or GUIDELINES. They can't be both.

I think it's more a case of how federations should enforce rules... the Spanish authorities are notoriously lax on clearing up doping, and so when faced with the biggest star in the world breaking the rules on a technicality, I don't know if there was ever any chance that they would sanction him -they're the ones that should be reprimanded over all this -if anything Contador is caught in the middle of it too.

petethedrummer

AG2R wrote: »

I have to laugh at people saying Alberto is dragging this out now :pac:

Noone said that.

AG2R wrote: »

clearly states WADA are looking for it. I'm sure he would rather this be over already wether it will be good or bad for him.

Eh? So you think he'd be happier with a ban if it was decided tomorrow than to let this drag out another 6 months and he get away with it?

Chips Lovell

You can now buy this fingerbanging piece of awesomeness:

Guybrush T

el tonto wrote: »

You can now buy this fingerbanging piece of awesomeness:

It would probably earn me permanent ostracisation, but I'm so tempted to buy that!

Just because....

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

You can now buy this fingerbanging piece of awesomeness:

I'm disappointed it doesn't say "Believe" on it anywhere

Idleater

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I'm disappointed it doesn't say "Believe" on it anywhere

That reminds me of the U2 Achtung Baby tour image:

Captain Havoc

I hope Dirk's one arrives before the Sean Kelly :pac:

Chips Lovell

WADA says Contador's lawyers are to blame for the delay:

However WADA has told VeloNation that the sheer quantity of files submitted by Contador’s legal team is the reason for the delay.

“I can confirm that in agreement with all parties involved, WADA requested from CAS a second exchange of briefs in order for its experts to have an opportunity to respond to the voluminous evidence filed by Mr. Contador,” said spokesman Terence O’Rorke.

The previous delay which prevented the June hearing was due to one of Contador’s lawyers indicating that he would be unable to attend at the specified dates.

GetWithIt

Just to muddy the waters further.

Contaminated meat in Mexico led to traces of the banned drug clenbuterol being found in urine samples given by more than 100 players at the Under 17 World Cup in June, FIFA’s medical chief has revealed.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2050276/FIFA-Contaminated-meat-caused-U17-failed-drugs-tests.html#ixzz1b7VxIqoE

Diarmuid

GetWithIt wrote: »

Just to muddy the waters further.

It shouldn't muddy the water. If anything it shows how unlikely it is for only one person in a team to test positive in such an environment.

GetWithIt

Diarmuid wrote: »

It shouldn't muddy the water. If anything it shows how unlikely it is for only one person in a team to test positive in such an environment.

That sounds like confirmation bias to me.

joker77

Think stories like this can only strengthen his case - nearly half the players at the U17 Soccer World Cup have tested positive:

http://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/news?slug=reu-mexicodoping

MEXICO CITY, Oct 17 (Reuters) - More than 100 players tested positive for the banned substance clenbuterol during the under-17 soccer world championship held in Mexico in June-July, a FIFA official said on Monday.

Jiri Dvorak, head of world governing body FIFA’s medical services, said the players were not punished because they were not considered cases of doping but rather part of a big health problem in Mexico.

Dvorak said in a teleconference that “208 urine samples were collected during the (under-17) World Cup and we analysed them in accredited WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratories,” he said.

“It was an enormous surprise that 109 samples showed traces of clenbuterol, that means 52.4 percent of the players.”

Mexican authorities have admitted the country has been affected by the practice of injecting cattle with the steroid, which is banned by WADA.

The players of the Mexico team that won the tournament tested negative because they had stuck to a diet of fish and vegetables.

“It’s not a doping problem, it’s a public health problem. When, in the first week of the tournament, we detected three cases and then another it was quite a surprise,” Dvorak said.

Last week, WADA withdrew an appeal at the Court for Arbitration in Sport against the Mexican Football Federation’s (FMF) decision not to sanction five senior players who tested positive for clenbuterol at the CONCACAF Gold Cup in the United States in June.

The FMF claimed the players had eaten beef contaminated by the steroid.

ThisRegard

This relates this story I read a couple of days ago, thought someone may have posted it

THE FARMING HABITS of Mexican cattle ranchers could turn out to have a significant impact on the outcome of the Court of Arbitration for Sport’s most high-profile case.
Last year, Spanish cyclist Alberto Contador was banned from competition by the Union Cycliste Internationale after he tested positive for the slimming agent clenbuterol. Though the three-time Tour de France champion was later cleared of the offence by his national federation, the decision was appealed by both the UCI and the World Anti-Doping Agency.
The 28-year-old’s case has yet to be heard by CAS, but developments elsewhere in the world of sport could well improve the odds of his exoneration.
WADA has issued a warning to participants in the Pan American Games in Guadalajara, Mexico, warning them about possible clenbuterol contamination in Mexican beef products. Supported by the experiences of a number of athletes, the institution believes the threat of inadvertent contamination to be significant.
“WADA has subsequently received compelling evidence… that indicates a serious health problem in Mexico with regards to meat contaminated with clenbuterol. This is a public health issue that is now being addressed urgently by the Mexican Government.”
“In the meantime, WADA’s message to athletes travelling to Mexico remains the same, and that is to exercise extreme caution with regards to what they eat and where they eat.”
Mexican cattle ranchers have become enthusiastic proponents of clenbuterol in recent months. Known locally as “cow cocaine,” the contaminant acts as means of lowering the fat content of cattle.
Though significant questions regarding the rider’s motivation, the source of any possible contamination and his training habits remain, the declaration could be interpreted as a partial substantiation of Contador’s initial claim that his positive test resulted from the ingestion of contaminated meat.

from http://thescore.thejournal.ie/could-cow-cocaine-save-alberto-contador-254376-Oct2011/

ednwireland

Diarmuid wrote: »

It shouldn't muddy the water. If anything it shows how unlikely it is for only one person in a team to test positive in such an environment.

except the rest of the team wasnt tested, apart from one guy who didnt eat the special meat (conveniently)

Lumen

I really don't understand this whole cow doping thing.

Fat is what makes the steak tasty.

ThisRegard

Probably means with less marbling they can sell more of it as fillet and therefore get more money per head of cattle.

manwithaplan

Is fillet not a particular cut, rather than a generic name for lean beef?

Anyway, boo to doping.

ThisRegard

Yeah, but if they're shady enough to dope the cattle they're hardly going to stop at passing off lesser cuts as prime fillet if they prepare the meat themselves rather than sell it on to a processor.

Diarmuid

ednwireland wrote: »

except the rest of the team wasnt tested, apart from one guy who didnt eat the special meat (conveniently)

It's been a while,but from memory, wasn't he was the only one test ON THE DAY. However clen stays in the blood for a while, others would have tested positive on later tests. My memory is hazy as to the detail now though