I feel like Irish society has completly exaggerated the recession.

Downlinz

Reminds me a bit of that south park global warming episode, a complete over-reaction to what is a real situation and admittedly a nuisance but far from life changing or warranting of the reaction given.

We're still a first world country, we still have one of the highest minimum wages in the world and while the situation has declined I can honestly say no other country in the world would respond to it with the furore of hate directed at politicians/bankers, the mass despair of the public or rampant emigration that Ireland has. Amazing how in some peoples minds a mere 9% unemployment swing changes their mood from "partying in the good times" to "emigrate, no future in this country".

But then I guess this will and always has been a country that revels in misery and will work with what it can get?

landsleaving

Come back to us when you've lost your job. Thanks.

Naikon

landsleaving wrote: »

Come back to us when you've lost your job. Thanks.

Jobs come and go. Now losing your house or assets is another matter entirely...

youtube!

9% :rolleyes:

ilovesleep

Wait until january 2012 after decembers budget. You won't be so smug then.

Cuts and tax hikes are going to happen. Which means less money to spend in the local economy which will lead to higher unemployment. We'll be chasing our tails in circles.

Trhiggy83

you clearly still have a job, take off your blinkers

CatFromHue

i have a job but would very much like to change it but ive had no luck over the last year. im in effect an unemployed employed person!

then there is the cuts that have been applied to peoples wages. they dont affect me to much as i earn less than 28,000. i do know these cuts have affected my family alot.

then there is the reduced spending by people which has affected the family business.

plus you know the whole bail out thing isnt too good

ballsymchugh

it's not just about losing a job. it's seeing more deductions from your pay packet, or if your job is dependent on other people spending money then things just get quieter.

TiGeR KiNgS

Downlinz wrote: »

Reminds me a bit of that south park global warming episode, a complete over-reaction to what is a real situation and admittedly a nuisance but far from life changing or warranting of the reaction given.

We're still a first world country, we still have one of the highest minimum wages in the world and while the situation has declined I can honestly say no other country in the world would respond to it with the furore of hate directed at politicians/bankers, the mass despair of the public or rampant emigration that Ireland has. Amazing how in some peoples minds a mere 9% unemployment swing changes their mood from "partying in the good times" to "emigrate, no future in this country".

But then I guess this will and always has been a country that revels in misery and will work with what it can get?

You clearly have no understanding of the situation, rendering your argument null and void.
QED

westies4ever

Downlinz wrote: »

mere 9% unemployment

??????????? last i heard it was 14.8%?? just because you're not suffering doesnt mean the rest of us arent!!!!

Einhard

Downlinz wrote: »

Reminds me a bit of that south park global warming episode, a complete over-reaction to what is a real situation and admittedly a nuisance but far from life changing or warranting of the reaction given.

People have lost their jobs, careers, homes, families, and even taken their own lives. That sounds pretty life changing to me.

we still have one of the highest minimum wages in the worl

And the high prices which go with it. You make it sound like Irish wages are spent against South East Asian prices!

and while the situation has declined I can honestly say no other country in the world would respond to it with the furore of hate directed at politicians/bankers,

Right... so obviously the whole furore in Spain, Greece, Portugal has entirely passed you by then?

the mass despair of the public or rampant emigration that Ireland has.

I don't think there's mass despair in general, more mass despair at the state of the economy, which isn't unwarranted.

Amazing how in some peoples minds a mere 9% unemployment swing changes their mood from "partying in the good times" to "emigrate, no future in this country".

A mere 9%?? Seriously...

krudler

Its depends tbh, people are genuinely struggling and then you have people who think "recessionary times" means going out only 1 night a week and, the poor things, taking one not two holidays a year is hardship. I was out of work ill for about 9 months and was on 800 quid a month give or take from the social welfare, just lived within my means, still had rent, esb, car payments, all my other bills to be paid, just stopped with some of the luxuries, its easily done in most cases.
Lack of personal accountability wrecks my head these days, I get people all the time who run up massive phone bills then complain they cant afford it because they lost their job or took a paycut, err stop using your fcuking phone so much then?

TheBegotten

It's not like that. During the Celtic Tiger even the most lazy, unskilled of workers could look foward to a good wage and an almost garuanteed mortgage to get a good home. Now that same person is unemployable in Ireland as well as most of the rest of the world without re-training.

Downlinz

If you lost your home thats down to taking out an unsustainable mortgage due to overconfidence in your employment security. This can happen at any though the fault here is just that, the recession is used as a convenient excuse by most for foolish transactions.

If you lost your job, well less than 1 in 10 could even claim to be in that situation because of the recession in a country with 86% employment. A lot of those were in construction which was an industry in an understood temporary boom period prior to this, the housing market was going to deflate with or without a recession that was inevitable. Even being generous and attributing each and every one of these job losses to the recession that still leaves 90% of the country unaffected and in the same state of employment they were previous to the recession.

Agricola

Downlinz wrote: »

Reminds me a bit of that south park global warming episode, a complete over-reaction to what is a real situation and admittedly a nuisance but far from life changing or warranting of the reaction given.

We're still a first world country, we still have one of the highest minimum wages in the world and while the situation has declined I can honestly say no other country in the world would respond to it with the furore of hate directed at politicians/bankers, the mass despair of the public or rampant emigration that Ireland has. Amazing how in some peoples minds a mere 9% unemployment swing changes their mood from "partying in the good times" to "emigrate, no future in this country".

But then I guess this will and always has been a country that revels in misery and will work with what it can get?

Yeah right buddy! I couldnt afford to get a new car last January and I now have to make do with one holiday a year from now on. This recession bites.

Donal Og O Baelach

I know people who could barely put food on the table if they suffered another pay cut, driving around today in 2011 cars.
Look at all the '09, '10 & 11 cars on the road - there is still plenty money around.

Downlinz

Unemployment rate in Ireland in 2006 was 5%, it is currently 14%. Thats a 9% swing

krudler

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

I know people who could barely put food on the table if they suffered another pay cut, driving around today in 2011 cars.
Look at all the '09, '10 & 11 cars on the road - there is still plenty moneydebt around.

fyp

westies4ever

Downlinz wrote: »

If you lost your home thats down to taking out an unsustainable mortgage due to overconfidence in your employment security. This can happen at any though the fault here is just that, the recession is used as a convenient excuse by most for foolish transactions.

If you lost your job, well less than 1 in 10 could even claim to be in that situation because of the recession in a country with 86% employment. A lot of those were in construction which was an industry in an understood temporary boom period prior to this, the housing market was going to deflate with or without a recession that was inevitable. Even being generous and attributing each and every one of these job losses to the recession that still leaves 90% of the country unaffected and in the same state of employment they were previous to the recession.

your logic is terminally flawed!!!!!!!! the unemployment rate isnt based on the whole population of the country - just the 'employable' people. It excludes those unable to work such as children, the elderly etc. For every unemployed person, think of the people dependant on that person.

It alos doesnt include the people such as the self employed not entitled to welfare. The figure equates to a lot more than '1 in 10'.

mikemac

westies4ever wrote: »

??????????? last i heard it was 14.8%?? just because you're not suffering doesnt mean the rest of us arent!!!!

You misread it
The OP didn't state 9% unemployment, just a swing of 9%

Even during the boom there were over 100,000 unemployed so add the swing and you've todays figure

Downlinz

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

I know people who could barely put food on the table if they suffered another pay cut, driving around today in 2011 cars.
Look at all the '09, '10 & 11 cars on the road - there is still plenty money around.

Of course there is, all I'm hearing from all these sob stories is people completely incapable of managing their finances. Am I supposed to feel sympathy for people who took out unsustainable mortgages or those who were trying to put kids through college without funds set aside?

The situation in Greece is far worse than it is here, Portugal is comparable and the negativity in their media and public is virtually non-existant compared to what we have to put up with here, as is their emigration figures. Again I'm not saying this isn't a regrettable situation, I'm saying its not an end of the world situation, its not a topic of such underlying significance we need to be discussing it in our media on a daily basis or attributing our life decisions around it.

Darkginger

Maybe a 'mere' 9% over all, but some parts of the country are worse than others - in our rural community, there are simply no jobs available, new developments are being reposessed by the banks before they're even finished, the pubs are deserted apart from tourists, and those on social welfare are trying to feed themselves, pay their mortgages (unless renting, which I wish we were, cos then we might get some help!), fuel their cars and pay their household bills on €300 per week per couple. Earning 'less than €28,000'?? I wish!

NWPat

A recession can not be exaggerated. It is a statement of fact, the economy is always in one of three states; growing, stagnant or in recession. The effects of recession are generaly not good. I find it hard to believe that you do not know of anyone who has been adverseley effected by the present crisis.

Einhard

Downlinz wrote: »

If you lost your home thats down to taking out an unsustainable mortgage due to overconfidence in your employment security. This can happen at any though the fault here is just that, the recession is used as a convenient excuse by most for foolish transactions.

The transactions have only come back to bite though in because of the recession. Had we not been hit by tis financial crisis, then people would still be able to afford their inflated lifesyles. So, the recession is directly impacting on such people.

If you lost your job, well less than 1 in 10 could even claim to be in that situation because of the recession in a country with 86% employment. A lot of those were in construction which was an industry in an understood temporary boom period prior to this, the housing market was going to deflate with or without a recession that was inevitable. Even being generous and attributing each and every one of these job losses to the recession that still leaves 90% of the country unaffected and in the same state of employment they were previous to the recession.

LOL are you for real? So, unless you're made redundant, you're on the same pay and conditions as previously? FFS, get real fella! Many of my friends still have their jobs, but have been made temporary, or put on shift work, and ALL have had their wages reduced. On top of which, the tax burden has increased considerably.

You also, when it suits your narrative, conveniently ignore the tens of thousands who have emigrated, whose numbers would bring the unemployment rate above 20%.

westies4ever

mikemac wrote: »

You misread it
The OP didn't state 9% unemployment, just a swing of 9%

Even during the boom there were over 100,000 unemployed so add the swing and you've todays figure

my bad. the blood boiling in my veins must have affected my eyesight.

Einhard

Downlinz wrote: »

Of course there is, all I'm hearing from all these sob stories is people completely incapable of managing their finances. Am I supposed to feel sympathy for people who took out unsustainable mortgages or those who were trying to put kids through college without funds set aside?

No, of course you don't have to feel sympathy, but that's not the point. You claimed the recession isn't having that big an impact, and yet when pointed to a sector of society on whom it's impacting massively, you shift the goalposts entirely.

Steodonn

Its depends tbh, people are genuinely struggling and then you have people who think "recessionary times" means going out only 1 night a week and, the poor things, taking one not two holidays a year is hardship

Recessionary times they sound like Celtic tiger times to be. Had a foreign holiday in 2008 one in Ireland in 2009 and none this year or last. Two hoildays I could only dream off even at the height of the boom

Downlinz

Einhard wrote: »

The transactions have only come back to bite though in because of the recession. Had we not been hit by tis financial crisis, then people would still be able to afford their inflated lifesyles. So, the recession is directly impacting on such people.




LOL are you for real? So, unless you're made redundant, you're on the same pay and conditions as previously? FFS, get real fella! Many of my friends still have their jobs, but have been made temporary, or put on shift work, and ALL have had their wages reduced. On top of which, the tax burden has increased considerably.

You also, when it suits your narrative, conveniently ignore the tens of thousands who have emigrated, whose numbers would bring the unemployment rate above 20%.

Considering our population is a net-rise in the last census it'd be also discarding young people entering the workforce and immigration. I don't have total employment figures but considering our population is rising in general I would assume the number of people in employment isn't in decline.

NWPat

Downlinz wrote: »

Of course there is, all I'm hearing from all these sob stories is people completely incapable of managing their finances. Am I supposed to feel sympathy for people who took out unsustainable mortgages or those who were trying to put kids through college without funds set aside?

The situation in Greece is far worse than it is here, Portugal is comparable and the negativity in their media and public is virtually non-existant compared to what we have to put up with here, as is their emigration figures. Again I'm not saying this isn't a regrettable situation, I'm saying its not an end of the world situation, its not a topic of such underlying significance we need to be discussing it in our media on a daily basis or attributing our life decisions around it.

Assim você pode falar o português e ler os papéis diários? Não, eu pensei não!

Einhard

Downlinz wrote: »

Considering our population is a net-rise in the last census it'd be also discarding young people entering the workforce and immigration. I don't have total employment figures but considering our population is rising in general I would assume the number of people in employment isn't in decline.

The rise in the last census was, for the most part, attributable to natural increase. Considering that the census is held every five years, and 5 year old kids generally don't enter the workforce, you're not actually discarding anything...

Also, I do have the figures:

In April 2005, there were 2,034.9 people emplyed in Ireland. April 2006 saw a rise to 2,113.9, followed by a slight dip the following year to 2,112.8. The fall accelerated dramatically in the following two years, dropping to 1,938.5 in 2009, and 1,859.1 in 2010. I can only assume that the decline has not been reversed in the meantime...

(http://www.cso.ie/statistics/empandunempilo.htm)

So, within 4 years, the numbers employed in this country dropped by almost 300k, at a time when tens of thousands were emigrating and, as you pointed out yourself, there was a rise in the numbe rof people in the country. So, wven by your own standards, you're wrong.

westies4ever

Downlinz wrote: »

assume

TMOAFU'S

Wolfe Tone

Must be a troll

Downlinz

Einhard wrote: »

No, of course you don't have to feel sympathy, but that's not the point. You claimed the recession isn't having that big an impact, and yet when pointed to a sector of society on whom it's impacting massively, you shift the goalposts entirely.

It depends how you define a big impact. Of course being in unemployment is a big impact for the individual but I don't believe the numbers of this is so large that it can be used to define anything other than a downturn. I recall living in Germany during the early part of the last decade while the unemployment rates were in double digit, it was an economic concern but the extent of this was never of the kind of titanic significance it is here. The notion of emigration from it would have been viewed as ludicrous. If as analysts predict the unemployment rate has peaked at 14/15% its not even going to go down in the history books as a period of massive significance, just another downturn. One like has been seen before and will be seen again by every country.

Dionysus

Downlinz wrote: »

Reminds me a bit of that south park global warming episode, a complete over-reaction to what is a real situation and admittedly a nuisance but far from life changing or warranting of the reaction given.

We're still a first world country, we still have one of the highest minimum wages in the world and while the situation has declined I can honestly say no other country in the world would respond to it with the furore of hate directed at politicians/bankers, the mass despair of the public or rampant emigration that Ireland has. Amazing how in some peoples minds a mere 9% unemployment swing changes their mood from "partying in the good times" to "emigrate, no future in this country".

But then I guess this will and always has been a country that revels in misery and will work with what it can get?

One thing sums up why it's not exaggerated: before the "boom" the average house would cost 2.5 times your annual salary and 1 time the second earner's annual salary. I wrote about it here. Is there any evidence that house prices have returned to this? Answer: absolutely not. Today, for instance, a professional earning €50,000 per year could afford to live in places like Finglas, Tallaght, Ongar and the like if they got a home for even four times their annual salary. This would be a professional with a degree and a professional qualification and a few years experience.

If anything, people are still trying to hype up the property market in Ireland. Why? Because every smug dickhead deciding the content of newspapers was foolish enough to gamble ("invest in") on property and they want to avoid it hitting the floor. The Irish Times, a paper which I respect more than any other, is terrible in offending us on this score.

If anything, prices of property in this state need to fall dramatically.

RichieC

as well as the actual effects of the recession the media pushes it too, you see the media are owned by people who want our social services gutted and the minimum wage dropped. constant fear mongering in the papers lubes the irish up to accept things they otherwise wouldn't.

In the states the media managed to whip america into a froth over a tax increase that would have effected 2% of the nation.

johnmcdnl

Downlinz wrote: »

Amazing how in some peoples minds a mere 9% unemployment swing changes their mood from "partying in the good times" to "emigrate, no future in this country".

a mere 9% could also be called an increase of 2 and a half times....

6% to 15% = 2.5x increase... now it does sound so "little" does it...


easy knowing the OP is living out of daddy's pockets an daddy has only had to take a 10% pay deduction but still takes home 3 times the mimimum wage and can afford a new car every year etc etc etc...
either that or OP is in a nice safe job and making lots of money... maybe a wee decrease in pay maybe but not enough to mean they have to think whether they can afford branded food or whether they have to go for the tesco value food this week....

come back to us OP when your after loosing your job and any job available is getting a couple hundred applications.... then you'll see what the recession is like for a whole lot of people...

Mr Cawley

Downlinz wrote: »

Reminds me a bit of that south park global warming episode, a complete over-reaction to what is a real situation and admittedly a nuisance but far from life changing or warranting of the reaction given.

We're still a first world country, we still have one of the highest minimum wages in the world and while the situation has declined I can honestly say no other country in the world would respond to it with the furore of hate directed at politicians/bankers, the mass despair of the public or rampant emigration that Ireland has. Amazing how in some peoples minds a mere 9% unemployment swing changes their mood from "partying in the good times" to "emigrate, no future in this country".

But then I guess this will and always has been a country that revels in misery and will work with what it can get?

Greek riots. Clown.:rolleyes:

Einhard

Downlinz wrote: »

It depends how you define a big impact. Of course being in unemployment is a big impact for the individual but I don't believe the numbers of this is so large that it can be used to define anything other than a downturn. I recall living in Germany during the early part of the last decade while the unemployment rates were in double digit, it was an economic concern but the extent of this was never of the kind of titanic significance it is here. The notion of emigration from it would have been viewed as ludicrous. If as analysts predict the unemployment rate has peaked at 14/15% its not even going to go down in the history books as a period of massive significance, just another downturn. One like has been seen before and will be seen again by every country.

But as I've pointed out, were it not for the valve of emigration, the unemployment rate would be well above 20%. And that's not even considering the higher than average number of Irish people in third level education, many of whom are there precisely because there are no jobs for them in the market. You seem to have fixated on this 15% figure (which is very high by international standards), and won't countenance any context or nuance.

m@cc@

Downlinz wrote: »

It depends how you define a big impact. Of course being in unemployment is a big impact for the individual but I don't believe the numbers of this is so large that it can be used to define anything other than a downturn. I recall living in Germany during the early part of the last decade while the unemployment rates were in double digit, it was an economic concern but the extent of this was never of the kind of titanic significance it is here. The notion of emigration from it would have been viewed as ludicrous. If as analysts predict the unemployment rate has peaked at 14/15% its not even going to go down in the history books as a period of massive significance, just another downturn. One like has been seen before and will be seen again by every country.

You are aware that the recession is more than just an increase in unemployment?

It's also a fall in the average disposable income, an increase in food prices that's greater than the increase in people incomes and lots more.

A fairly glib OP I have to say.

Furthermore, I don't see what having a minimum wage has to do with anything. If anything, the minimum wage is a hinderance in a recession.

gbee

One needs to add in the latest figures which show almost double the PPS numbers as per population.

This shows that 4 out of every ten workers were ghosts and the real unemployment figure are nearly double in reality.

This also shows that 40% of the Celtic Tiger was being syphoned off, not counting the banks and stock market criminality, but that means the market crashed with immediate effect and only about 20% of the population are in reality unaffectived by the recession apart from price rises and wage slackening.

Like the previous post, no new car this year and only one holiday and he still has all his savings in the bank.

Which is why the government has been contemplating stealing his savings anyway, if he won't buy that new car and take three holidays a years, we'll take his saving and show him.

Tonyandthewhale

Downlinz wrote: »

Considering our population is a net-rise in the last census it'd be also discarding young people entering the workforce and immigration. I don't have total employment figures but considering our population is rising in general I would assume the number of people in employment isn't in decline.

Population growth in Ireland is somewhere between 1 and 2 % per annum. I significant proportion of these people won't be eligible for employment or won't be actively seeking employment so the actual figure is much lower than this when we're talking about growth in the workforce. Unemployment has massively outstripped the growth in population so your point is invalid.

However, even if your case was valid and the total workforce remained stagnant while gross population grows you still have a situation where you have a large and growing population of unemployed people. This still isn't a good thing. You really don't understand what's going on do you?

Besides, it's not just about unemployment and personal debt. Government services are also suffering as funds are withdrawn. Hospitals are being shut down, roads are not being maintained, standards of living are still high but they're dropping. As the welfare state breaks down through a collapse of the middle-class tax break then the poorest of the poor suffer and society becomes more stratified, the rich/poor divide widens and things start to look more third world (not that we're quite there yet).

sunflower27

Naikon wrote: »

Jobs come and go. Now losing your house or assets is another matter entirely...

Losing a job and not being able to get another one is often the catalyst to losing a home and assets.

7sr2z3fely84g5

There is wealth out there,only have to look at recent auction of reprossed homes and property,bought up by those who weren't morons to fall for buying property abroad with credit or you're a moron if you dont brigade.

Same time there other hardship and a mighty fall from grace,alot had to give up their shopping trips to new york,trade in the suv/scrap the visit to galway races/and reuse the same clothes for events.

Then theres those who took out mortgages when they could afford but lost their job and now struggle.

Naikon

sunflower27 wrote: »

Losing a job and not being able to get another one is often the catalyst to losing a home and assets.

You forgot hard drug addiction.

Lux23

I am out of work almost a year, working the last three months under the WPP scheme just so I can say to interviewers that I am not sitting on my arse all day long. Anyway people keep asking me if I am going on holidays and these are people who know well I am not working, when I tell them no I wouldn't feel right spending money on a holiday they give me a mad look. I have some money but I am keeping that for when I do start working again, its likely it will be a month before I would get paid and you don't get the social during that period.

patneve2

Why has Irish society exaggerated the recession? Standards were too high and people got used to it. However, I really do feel for the poor souls who have lost their jobs etc...

The media made it much worse also

desertcircus

Do people really have a problem understanding why a 9% swing in unemployment is a big deal?

Here's a simple mathematical explanation. When unemployment was at 5%, each person with a job was funding, on average, one-nineteenth of an unemployed person's economic life. Now unemployment is 14%, each person with a job is funding, on average, a seventh of an unemployed person's economic life. The social welfare bill has near-trebled, while the income tax account is coming in maybe a sixth or even a fifth lower than it once did, between paycuts, unemployment and reduced overtime. The price of a house has dropped by over half and is still far above what people can afford, so that still has further to fall; the bill for taking over the banks is running in the region of a couple of years of the entire budget of the country; we have no way of devaluing our currency thanks to being in the euro.

Is it really hard to understand?

Downlinz

patneve2 wrote: »

Why has Irish society exaggerated the recession? Standards were too high and people got used to it. However, I really do feel for the poor souls who have lost their jobs etc...

The media made it much worse also

I'd agree the media has played a big part, although so have our political leaders. I'd much rather an american attitude that focuses on constructively looking to the future, instilling national pride and confidence in people rather than dwelling on mistakes and the grimness of the situation. The irish media do really seem to revel in misery like pigs to muck.

anto2

Most people in Ireland have felt very little recession yet .The future looks rather daunting though ,but the rich will always be rich .Maybe the OP lives in Enniskerry ? ( a paradise for rich people )

Downlinz

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

Besides, it's not just about unemployment and personal debt. Government services are also suffering as funds are withdrawn. Hospitals are being shut down, roads are not being maintained, standards of living are still high but they're dropping. As the welfare state breaks down through a collapse of the middle-class tax break then the poorest of the poor suffer and society becomes more stratified, the rich/poor divide widens and things start to look more third world (not that we're quite there yet).

Its exactly this kind of nonsensical BS that I'm talking about.

anto2

Downlinz wrote: »

Its exactly this kind of nonsensical BS that I'm talking about.

I know if you live in Enniskerry (Co Wicklow ,near Bray ) things only get tough when you are down to your last Million euro .:D

OP go out and feed your horses maybe they will be more sympathetic to you :cool:.