Homages - Yae or Nay

peasant

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MOD NOTE: This is splinter discussion off the foot of a forum members purchase. This thread is for the discussion of homage watches and your opinion of them.
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Bullseye1 wrote: »

I see that these are banned from watchuseek forum.

Well, to be fair ...

Obvious plagiarism is obvious

...that might have something to do with it

Bullseye1

LOL. True enough. There are plenty of threads but no mention of MM.

peasant wrote: »

Well, to be fair ...

Obvious plagiarism is obvious

...that might have something to do with it

bren2002

I wouldn't be a fan of such blatant copying. Not just this brand, who are new to me. But Seiko copy Omega, Citizen copy Bretling and so it goes. But those copies are not complete replicas like these.

m4r10

The MM name doesn't do anything for me, but the shape does. This is mine and I'm very happy with it:

bren2002

Why not buy a Panerai?

Bullseye1

bren2002 wrote: »

Why not buy a Panerai?

Well I've just bought an Omega. Don't have the funds to buy a real Panerai at present but maybe in the future. My next purchase will more than likely be a IWC.

bren2002

Bullseye1 wrote: »

bren2002 wrote: »

Why not buy a Panerai?

Well I've just bought an Omega. Don't have the funds to buy a real Panerai at present but maybe in the future. My next purchase will more than likely be a IWC.

I just can't understand this. You clearly know your watches and are not afraid to spend on them.

Why buy a knock off?

foxyboxer

I guess it's just a cost effective means of trying out a particular style.
You get an idea of how it wears and it doubles up as a beater when/if you decide to go for the real deal.

peasant

bren2002 wrote: »

Why buy a knock off?

Why not?

As long as the knock-off is clearly distingushable as such and doesn't actually pretend to be the real thing it's all just a bit of fun.

Bullseye1

Thanks Fox. I'm not 100% convinced the styling will suit me. This is a cheap way of finding out.

Reloc8

Bullseye1 wrote: »

False alarm it was amazon. Bloody customs are hitting everything now even below $50.

I got a very nice package in from Japan last week - couldn't believe it wasn't shaken down by customs - all the sweeter.

marcus1971

bedlam wrote: »

Which to be fair, these are really pushing it and are just a name on a dial away from being an outright fake instead of a so called "homage"

Spot the difference.....
Panerai Luminor Power Reserve
Panerai Luminor Marina

I can't for the life of me see the problem here.
There is no way that the Getat watch is going to have anywhere near the fit and finish of the Panerai.
It's not going to last a decade never mind a lifetime.
It's not going to be an heirloom to pass on to the kids
It does not have any value as a asset that could be sold or traded
It's never going to be sold to any unsuspecting punter as a Panerai watch

It's just fashion watch that looks like a Panerai,
considering that the big watch houses cite innovation, quality, longevity and the desirability of the trademark written on the dial then this Getat watch is comparable to a Ferrari kit car built on Skoda running gear, it looks the part from a distance but none of what makes a Ferrari what it is will be present.

(and if it is totally indistinguishable from a Panerai inside and out and can be bought for 100 Euro delivered to the door then its Panerai that should be ashamed of the quality of their product not the guy turning out something that can rival them for 100 Euro)

Wibbs

Musing as I do... :) This "authentic" label is a hard enough one to pin down, though much of the world today is looking for it. This goes double since the birth of web collecting where amateur experts have a rich seam of knowledge about well just about any sphere of collecting you care to mention. Collectors have always been looking for the authentic of course. Rich boyos on 18th century gap years buying up "Roman" statues knocked up by Mario a week before, some of which are in museums today claiming great age. Authentic means safe, connection to a community, kudos, pride in having an exclusive, perceived value and all that stuff. Stuff that the original version may not have had when it was new.

This goes in a big way for ex military watches. I remember chatting to an English chap on dial up way back in the day who told me of buying a shoebox full of 40's and 50's IWC and JLC RAF issued pilots watches for 30 quid at auction in the 80's. You'd get around 5 k for just one of those in good nick today. The dress watches in gold from the same companies was where the value was. Today they're half if not more of the value.

So when is a Panerai a Panerai? Should it be made in a backroom of a shop in Florence, with a cheap ass Rolex movement(well cortebert to be precise) or the later higher quality Angelus movement? The modern Panerai is an "homage". The difference between them and other homages is their bought and paid for right to use the name. Which is where I'd draw the line personally. IMHO it can be quite the arbitrary line, but it is the legal one, hence we don't allow links to "authentically" fake watches. It can get even weirder when the modern homage costs more than the "authentic" original from the same company. Hueurs can be like that.

I'd also agree with Marcus on this point;

Marcus1971 wrote:

and if it is totally indistinguishable from a Panerai inside and out and can be bought for 100 Euro delivered to the door then its Panerai that should be ashamed of the quality of their product not the guy turning out something that can rival them for 100 Euro

In one way the homages are or should be making the high end houses up their game. Outright fakes from China not so much.

Flashwatches

I have to say I am not a fan of homage watches or fakes.

Homage watches are basically making money of someone else's design, and fake watches are basically making money of someone's else's design and name.

These Panerai homages are made by the same people making Panerai fakes, they simply do not print the name on the dial and sell them to watch enthusiasts, who like to think they are not buying a fake because it doesn't have the name on the dial. I have even heard if stories of case companies in china making cases for certain watch companies by day and when the staff go home the owners come in for the night shift and produce the same cases to sell as fakes. :eek:
Faking watches is big business and these guys are finding it harder to get them through customs etc but without the name on the dial it is a lot easier.

Just my 2 cents.

marcus1971

I'll accept that Panerai watches are very distinctive looking and it is easy to say that anything with the style of crown guard and shape of the cases that they use could easily, and most likely rightfully, be accused of ripping off their design but you have to look back into the history of watches in general to spot the trends that have existed for years and years by respected watchmakers all over Switzerland (especially) and the rest of the world.

The Rolex Submariner from the very day it issued a model with the familar shoulders protecting the crown was, at the time, a very distinctive and very Rolex design (I presume it was their original design), since then there have been dozens and dozens of watches produced that, except for the name on the dial, are almost identical to the Rolex Submariner ripping off that shouldered crown... Tag being the most blatent "rip off"

Then there are dress watches from the 50'ies, 60'ies and 70'ies I have bought a many of these over the years and they were all almost identical wheather they are Bulova, Perregaux, Omega, Ebel, Rolex, Patek, Longines, Zenith, Vacheron etc. etc. wheather square or round 26mm-28mm, stick dial, white gold, yellow gold or stainless they were all identical.

I have 3 Rolex Oysters from the 50ies to the 80ies and I don't know who came up with the design first but there are also hundreds of different branded watches out there made over the years that are almost identical to the Rolex designed Oyster, maybe Rolex themselves were following a trend someone else started but nonetheless there are hundreds of watches out there that are identical to the regular old 34mm Oyster and even the ladies Datejust is the same.... then there are the day-date models and its the same with them

The Getat might be a blatant rip off but its nothing that most of the watch companies that complain about that kind of thing that have not done themselves at some point.

As for the homages sticking in a stock ETA, is that not effectively what almost all watch makers in the med end price range (2000-15000) have been doing for years now?... with a bit of finishing on the rotors etc.
and now that the supply of the ETA movements is going to stop a lot of these same watch houses are going to be sourcing their movements from the chinese factories that have blatently copied the standard ETA movements for years now... thats a real turnaround.

foxyboxer

Well said Marcus. As the saying goes "In mechanical watchmaking what can be invented has already been invented."

As regards the similarity between the Panerai's, for me it's a form of plagiarism. A lazy catch-all intended to deceive and be easier on the pocket. I'd regard as I said these as a test drive.
Whereas for example a sub-alike diver or Patek-alike dress watch is more like a cover version to use the musical phrase.
Where companies produce watches that 'have' to use design cues from established models.

Wibbs

marcus1971 wrote: »

since then there have been dozens and dozens of watches produced that, except for the name on the dial, are almost identical to the Rolex Submariner ripping off that shouldered crown... Tag being the most blatent "rip off"

Very much so. Many of the official names out there have a "Sub" in their lineup.

Then there are dress watches from the 50'ies, 60'ies and 70'ies I have bought a many of these over the years and they were all almost identical wheather they are Bulova, Perregaux, Omega, Ebel, Rolex, Patek, Longines, Zenith, Vacheron etc. etc. wheather square or round 26mm-28mm, stick dial, white gold, yellow gold or stainless they were all identical.

The *ahem* borrowing of case design in the 40's/50's in dress watches was mad. A couple of companies brought out distinctive cases and others just went ahead and "homaged" their design. By way of example, a case design as distinctive as you like;

Benrus

LeCoultre

Longines(who seemed to have been the first with this one)

Bulova

Gruen etc I could add another two or three names to that lot. The Art deco period the same. The list of "tank" style cases is loooong.

I have 3 Rolex Oysters from the 50ies to the 80ies and I don't know who came up with the design first but there are also hundreds of different branded watches out there made over the years that are almost identical to the Rolex designed Oyster, maybe Rolex themselves were following a trend someone else started

The very first Oyster was a step forward and a Rolex design. Well... not quite. They were the first to use a screwdown crown alright, but there are a few non rolex screwback and front cases before them that look very similar to an Oyster. Actually on the divers watch front, there are a shedload of companies in the 60's firing out the two crown super compressor cased design a la;

Off the top of my head, IWC, JLC, Longines, Benrus, Bulova, Lip to name but a few.

As for the homages sticking in a stock ETA, is that not effectively what almost all watch makers in the med end price range (2000-15000) have been doing for years now?... with a bit of finishing on the rotors etc.
and now that the supply of the ETA movements is going to stop a lot of these same watch houses are going to be sourcing their movements from the chinese factories that have blatently copied the standard ETA movements for years now... thats a real turnaround.

It's going to get interesting alright. When is an X watch a real X watch. I suppose it'll just come down to what's on the dial. As it always has done for most.

EDIT for me anyway a fake is where they're aiming to deceive. A Tag sub is a copy/ripoff/homage, but it doesn't say Rolex or submariner on the dial. This is where I do see where Bedlam is coming from with the Pan homage as what's printed on the dial is uncomfortably close to deceiving for me.

Flashwatches

marcus1971 wrote: »

......
and now that the supply of the ETA movements is going to stop a lot of these same watch houses are going to be sourcing their movements from the chinese factories that have blatently copied the standard ETA movements for years now... thats a real turnaround.

The tightening of ETAs supply is not as big a deal as a lot of people think. Yes it will be difficult to get movements directly from ETA but most small companies don't get their movements directly from them. A lot of these small companies get them on the secondary market, from dealers. These dealers will always have movements, and even if they don't there are alternatives, for example Setila produce a movement the same as the 2824, this is because they used to subcontract for ETA making movements so they have all the moulds machinery etc, also there is Soprod who produce some lovely movements for example the A10 which is on par with ETAs 2892. Off course there will be some who will go with the Miyota movements but they are around already.

flutered

my two cents are down in any market if a stall holder has a good swiss uk or us vintage watch, also the stallholder has chineese fakes of various makes, the fakes can be sold quicker and for more money than a genuine item which has been serviced.

marcus1971

Flashwatches wrote: »

The tightening of ETAs supply is not as big a deal as a lot of people think. Yes it will be difficult to get movements directly from ETA but most small companies don't get their movements directly from them. A lot of these small companies get them on the secondary market, from dealers. These dealers will always have movements, and even if they don't there are alternatives, for example Setila produce a movement the same as the 2824, this is because they used to subcontract for ETA making movements so they have all the moulds machinery etc, also there is Soprod who produce some lovely movements for example the A10 which is on par with ETAs 2892. Off course there will be some who will go with the Miyota movements but they are around already.

I probably didn't explain myself properly trying to get my point across,
The thing is that almost every single watch that we see in the window of any store with a price tag of between 2000 and 15000 uses an ETA movement, this is almost 100% across the board.

Swatch Group decided years ago that they were going to stop supply of their movements to any watchmaking house that was not part of their organization, this kicked up a storm in Switzerland and the competition authority stepped in and prevented this, the ruling was that they could not just cut off supply but had to phase it in over a period of years to allow other companies to come up with an alternative as it would have decimated the Swiss watchmaking industry again without these movements being available to other companies.

There is however no definitive information out there as to wheather the supply of finished movements will stop or if its just the supply of the blanks that will come to an end, it is expected though in the long run nobody outside of Swatch group of companies will have access to anything but spare parts which they are obliged to supply, so there will be no secondary market or dealers to buy movements from.

This is where Sellita stepped in as the frontrunner to take up the ETA mantle, the thing is that the Sellita movement is an exact 100% copy/fake/ripoff of the ETA movement (and there are lots of other makers churning out these movements), even all of the components are interchangeable, and the reason is for nothing other than the fact that the patents on the original ETA designs, that have been around since the 60's-70's, have run out. The patent on a mechanical device only has a life of 20 years (in the US anyway, don't know about EU...and China? I dont think the patent makes a difference anyway) ...
So then the whole fake/Rip Off/Homage/Copy takes on a different meaning for me anyway.

To the majority of people a watch is a piece of jewellery, a fashion item, a diving watch to look manly and sporty that will never even see a swimming pool in 99% of cases, something to show off you are wealthy because you have a Rolex/Patek whatever, something that goes with your suit at an event or just something shiney for the wife because she likes that kind of thing.

For the watch collector, in general, we justify the need for a watch regardless of price for the fact that it is a marvel of miniature engineering, fantastic quality, the skill that went into the design, the fact that a spring turning a few gears ticking nearly 700,000 times a day x365 days for decades...
So if Swatch have their way there will be no genuine ETA movements in ANY watch outside of their list of companies, there will however (most likely) be a knock off of the ETA workhorse powering these watches, so if its the V12 handbuilt engine that is the heart of a Lamborgini, the reason for its very existence.....surely the movement is the heart of every single mechanical timepiece wheather it a pocketwatch, handwind, automatic or even a high end quartz, if that heart is a fake/copy/rip-off where does that leave the originality of these watches?

Its really a case of double standards for these watch companies, its not ok to approximate the look of their designs but they will be happy to use a knock off Sellita movement in the same watches.

(And if they complain about Chinese companies opening up after the supervisers have gone home and churn out a few extras to sell as replicas there is one big question to ask.... if a watch that retails for 5,000 Euro that has Swiss made stamped on the dial/caseback, if they make a big speil about Swiss quality and tradition, how can they justify these prices with the whole "Swiss" blarney and marketing bulls#$t, then have most of these watches made in China for a couple of Euros? ... I doubt it happens though, the kind of machines that make these watches are very complicated computer controlled devices, its not just a case of starting them up and turning out a few watches when nobody is looking and reset the counters so nobody knows)

m4r10

It seems to me that you are contradincting yourself in the argument.

marcus1971 wrote: »

the thing is that the Sellita movement is an exact 100% copy/fake/ripoff of the ETA movement (and there are lots of other makers churning out these movements), even all of the components are interchangeable, and the reason is for nothing other than the fact that the patents on the original ETA designs, that have been around since the 60's-70's, have run out. The patent on a mechanical device only has a life of 20 years (in the US anyway, don't know about EU...and China? I dont think the patent makes a difference anyway) ...

The way I see this, once the patent has run out, than it's a fair game. You even say it yourself, all the components are the same, made with identical machines, then who's to say which one is an original and which one is a "copy/fake/ripoff"? Just because someone held the patent for so many years, doesn't entitle them to be the sole producers of the movement at the present.

marcus1971

m4r10 wrote: »

It seems to me that you are contradincting yourself in the argument.



The way I see this, once the patent has run out, than it's a fair game. You even say it yourself, all the components are the same, made with identical machines, then who's to say which one is an original and which one is a "copy/fake/ripoff"? Just because someone held the patent for so many years, doesn't entitle them to be the sole producers of the movement at the present.

I might be a bit dim, but how am I contradicting myself?

m4r10

You're calling the Sellita movement a "copy/fake/ripoff" of the ETA one on the base that ETA held the patent for so many years (although now expired). Between the two movements, what makes one original and the other a fake if both are manufactured with the same machines?

marcus1971

m4r10 wrote: »

You're calling the Sellita movement a "copy/fake/ripoff" of the ETA one on the base that ETA held the patent for so many years (although now expired). Between the two movements, what makes one original and the other a fake if both are manufactured with the same machines?

They aren't made on the same machines, I never said they were. The fact that the Sellita components are copied so close to the original ETA design that they are interchangeable is all I said.

m4r10

My mistake, I was reading a previous post

Flashwatches wrote: »

Setila produce a movement the same as the 2824, this is because they used to subcontract for ETA making movements so they have all the moulds machinery etc

IMO Sellita movements aren't fakes just that they're producing the same movements for which ETA held the patent until expired.

Monty Burnz

Flashwatches wrote: »

I have to say I am not a fan of homage watches or fakes.

Homage watches are basically making money of someone else's design, and fake watches are basically making money of someone's else's design and name.

Yeah, but the basic design goes back to the 40s or earlier, and Rolex did most of the work. You have to understand that current 'Panerai' is just an office in Switzerland that bought the name from the original Italian company. Modern Panerais of the old styles are just as much homages as the ones made in China. Richemont are making more money from the old Panerai company's designs than anyone else.

marcus1971

m4r10 wrote: »

My mistake, I was reading a previous post



IMO Sellita movements aren't fakes just that they're producing the same movements for which ETA held the patent until expired.

I don't have a problem with it either, but then the whole thing is down to a point of law and not in the spirit of design or innovation.

So to follow on with another point of law take some exact measurements of the Getat watch the OP bought, and the exact measurements will reveal that the watch he bought will be nowhere near an exact copy of the Panerai watch it is accused of ripping off, every single measurement taken will be way off the original Panerai design, it does not have Panerai written on the dial, does not have a movement that will even remotely resemble one so it is just a watch that bears a striking resemblence to a Panerai watch....

And Swiss watch makers have been copying each others designs ever since the watch industry started there.......

Which incidentally started by them copying ripping off British watchmakers designs ... using their names, everything - just like the Chinese do to Swiss brands today

Monty Burnz

bedlam wrote: »

[0] I'm sure I'll regret this but as an example I'll use Panerai and Getat, seeing as we seem to be fixated on them more so than other homages.
Panerai own the trademark to "Marina Militaire" when it comes to watches and jewelry (and their boxes). That means that any of the Getat watches that have the MM on the dial are infringing on Panerai's trademark, same goes for the crown guard, although by making slight variations this is easier to work around.

Marina Militare is the Italian name for the Italian navy. This is equivalent to - say - IWC having a patent on 'Irish Defence Forces' or somesuch. It's legal, but it's nonsense. At the moment, I quite like the old Panerai designs, so I've no problem buying a watch built along the old designs, even down the the movement. I could pay 4k for one, or .1k for one that's nearly as good. It's a no-brainer for me. There's no morality at issue here for me.

marcus1971

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Marina Militare is the Italian name for the Italian navy. This is equivalent to - say - IWC having a patent on 'Irish Defence Forces' or somesuch. It's legal, but it's nonsense. At the moment, I quite like the old Panerai designs, so I've no problem buying a watch built along the old designs, even down the the movement. I could pay 4k for one, or .1k for one that's nearly as good. It's a no-brainer for me. There's no morality at issue here for me.

Although we are only assuming all along through this thread that Panerai actually DO have a patent or trademark rights to the "Marina Militare" logo/name whatever you want to call it, maybe they have no rights to the title at all, maybe they pay the Italian Navy to use the name, this might mean if its the Italian Navy that would have a case against infringement or maybe just anybody can use it.

Monty Burnz

marcus1971 wrote: »

Although we are only assuming all along through this thread that Panerai actually DO have a patent or trademark rights to the "Marina Militare" logo/name whatever you want to call it, maybe they have no rights to the title at all, maybe they pay the Italian Navy to use the name, this might mean if its the Italian Navy that would have a case against infringement or maybe just anybody can use it.

I believe they've trademarked the name in the context of watches (although I'm subject to correction there).

m4r10

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I believe they've trademarked the name in the context of watches (although I'm subject to correction there).

Yes they did, see bedlam's post on page 2 (link to IPO here), although I had no idea how they managed to trademark some common italian words.

I like the shape of their watches, but even if I had the money to buy a Panerai, I wouldn't do it because of their business attitude. The Richemont guys are known to be bullies in the watch industry and rely on their financial power to enforce their wishes. As such, as Monty said, I have no remorse in wearing my "hommage".

marcus1971

m4r10 wrote: »

Yes they did, see bedlam's post on page 2 (link to IPO here), although I had no idea how they managed to trademark some common italian words.

I like the shape of their watches, but even if I had the money to buy a Panerai, I wouldn't do it because of their business attitude. The Richemont guys are known to be bullies in the watch industry and rely on their financial power to enforce their wishes. As such, as Monty said, I have no remorse in wearing my "hommage".

I think in a lot of cases these trademark infringements are unenforceable, kind of like the way every single car park in Ireland has a sign displayed that informs you "The Management Accept No Responsibility"............ etc etc. Yet these signs are not worth the ink used to print them, the management in fact in most cases have 100% responsibility for what happens on their property, it doesn't stop the signs going up though.

Agree with you 100% on the homage front, the only 1 single problem I have is if someone trys to pass a fake/homage on as a genuine watch to an unsuspecting punter, although the arguers of this point would probably say I have no morals at all...... I have a few replicas (real good ones too, lol)

Wibbs

m4r10 wrote: »

...although I had no idea how they managed to trademark some common italian words.

Open to correction here, but I'm pretty sure Rolex have "submariner" and the word combination "superlative chronometer" trademarked too. While not that common in conversation, they're pretty common english words so it can be done. I think(and very open to correction) they have the rights to use the words in concert with their company name, identifying it with that. No doubt Nike have "just do it" trademarked, but only in the context of the Nike symbol. Maybe this is how the homages get around this? So they can sail close to the wind putting "Marina Militare" on the dial, but without the word Panerai above they're just out of legal reach?

Like I was saying earlier and it's ony my take, but the panerai homages are very close to "fakes" as they aim to deceive IMHO. The countless "sub" homages/influenced/rip offs by other companies while aiming to copy the overall style have Tag or Longines or whatever on the dial. That's where I'd draw my line personally.

I'd have no real issue with another form of homage, the watch that's copying an original that's no longer available new and second hand was rare and delicate. IE if someone came up with a Longines so called Czech pilots watch, but only if it clearly stated on the dial it wasn't Longines. Ditto for something like the Blancpain 50 fathoms. I'm very surprised no one I know have has copied this design* from the early 30's

Actually a perfect example of marcus1971's point about companies copying/producing the same design. The Omega and Zenith examples are among the most sought after and seen, but so far the only company name I've not seen on the dial of one of those is Rolex. Yep, pretty much name any European watch company existing in the 1930's and you'll find one of this exact design in the lineup. What's quite odd about that is given how common a design meme it was there's no real info on where the design originated.


*welllll I suppose Chronoswiss didn't exactly get their "innovative" design from out of the air...

Monty Burnz

bedlam wrote: »

If the corporate bullying is an issue, would you not be better forgoing any association be it real or just look-a-like to Richemont pieces?

That assumes that the Panerai 'look' is Richemont's in the first place. I don't think it is: they only own the name, 'Panerai'. The design, originally by Rolex, and sold by the original Italian Panerai company, has been in the public domain for decades.

Look at it this way: a Chinese car company has bought the name 'MG'. If this company started making MG designs from the 60s, and another European car company (say former workers from the original MG) started to make models to the same old designs, but without 'MG' on the bonnet, who is making the 'homage'? I would say both of them, clearly. And I certainly don't think that the Chinese guys who bought the name suddenly own the heritage of the company.

m4r10

bedlam wrote: »

If the corporate bullying is an issue, would you not be better forgoing any association be it real or just look-a-like to Richemont pieces? You could always support the independents instead, there are plenty of them at most price ranges.

If money was no object, I would buy an original Panerai (pre-Richemont era) in a flash, knowing that my money wouldn't go in their pockets. As it stands at the moment, my homage/fake/replica (read as appropriate) will have to do.

marcus1971

Wibbs wrote: »

Ditto for something like the Blancpain 50 fathoms. I'm very surprised no one I know have has copied this design* from the early 30's

Some REALLY good 50 fathoms out there, both Homages and fakes, well if you order one you actually have to request a sterile dial but they are available from only one source afaik and they are one of the best vintage homages/fakes I have seen to date and the build quality is A1.


Another really good homage is one of the JLC Polaris vintage - not the reissue, there is a seller on ebay, Lucawatch, that sells the complete kit (and the only source as well I think)- 40mm Case, inner bezel, twin crowns, hands, sterile dial, Ranchero or military style hands, ETA or Miyota for about 280Euro.... You will have to source the movement yourself and assemble it (which is waaaaaay easier than most would think) seen loads of these builds and they are really great finished, project should cost no more than 350-400 finished.

There should be no problem with these watches with the morality police (?) as they have already been copied ad nauseam by dozens of legit Swiss outfits back in the day when they were first made, especially the 50 fathoms.


Also this idea that the factories that make the fakes also make the homages is a bit mixed up.

The factories in China (mostly) make watch parts... like you see in legit suppliers like Ofrei and dozens of ebay stores... you will see them advertised for e.g. as "fits Rolex" ... but these parts are not made by Rolex.... legit?

So, a factory makes watch movements and we already concluded that the patents are out on the ETA stuff so the "movement making factory" is legit.

Another factory makes the hands, these are supplied to watch makers all over the world.... Ofrei, Cousins etc... so the "hands making factory" is legit.

Another factory makes the cases, wheather or not you might think its legit... the law allows them continue, I compare it to the fact that if I need to buy body panels/parts to repair my car, I can go to a motor factors and buy spurious parts off the shelf, my car will then will then be what in the watch world is a franken, but that has been going on since the beginning and there are probably tens of thousands of Frankencars out there just because someone replaced a windscreen with something that is not an OEM screen.. these are just watch cases that approximate the shape of OEM watch cases, they do not have trademarks or manufacturers names on them.

The dials are where the problem will exist in the real/homage/replica/fake/copy camp and its the dial printers that have their heads on the block, there are thousands and thousands of legit dial printers but it only takes a few underground boys to come up with the faked dials this is obviously illegal. But there is another end of the replica market which revolves around modding replica watches as they come "out of the box" and these are the dealers who supply very very high quality refinished genuine ex-service Rolex/Omega etc. dials, they are real they are just repainted and not illegal.


The illegal part of the whole replica industry is based around the "cartel" that buy these parts and have them assembled into a final product... this is why quality is so bad in them, they are usually assembled on someones kitchen table in a slum somewhere, a good service will fix this however... The homages though are usually of better quality because they are legal are made in a proper factory and dont need the whole underground network to turn them out.

Wibbs

marcus1971 wrote: »

Some REALLY good 50 fathoms out there, both Homages and fakes, well if you order one you actually have to request a sterile dial but they are available from only one source afaik and they are one of the best vintage homages/fakes I have seen to date and the build quality is A1.

Ah right. The only ones I had seen are designed to deceive and sold as such.

Another really good homage is one of the JLC Polaris vintage - not the reissue, there is a seller on ebay, Lucawatch, that sells the complete kit (and the only source as well I think)- 40mm Case, inner bezel, twin crowns, hands, sterile dial, Ranchero or military style hands, ETA or Miyota for about 280Euro.... You will have to source the movement yourself and assemble it (which is waaaaaay easier than most would think) seen loads of these builds and they are really great finished, project should cost no more than 350-400 finished.

There should be no problem with these watches with the morality police (?) as they have already been copied ad nauseam by dozens of legit Swiss outfits back in the day when they were first made, especially the 50 fathoms.

True and the Polaris wasn't the first one to use that case design. IIRC Lip used it first.

Another factory makes the cases, wheather or not you might think its legit... the law allows them continue, I compare it to the fact that if I need to buy body panels/parts to repair my car, I can go to a motor factors and buy spurious parts off the shelf, my car will then will then be what in the watch world is a franken, but that has been going on since the beginning and there are probably tens of thousands of Frankencars out there just because someone replaced a windscreen with something that is not an OEM screen.. these are just watch cases that approximate the shape of OEM watch cases, they do not have trademarks or manufacturers names on them.

That's a point too.

The illegal part of the whole replica industry is based around the "cartel" that buy these parts and have them assembled into a final product... this is why quality is so bad in them, they are usually assembled on someones kitchen table in a slum somewhere, a good service will fix this however... The homages though are usually of better quality because they are legal are made in a proper factory and dont need the whole underground network to turn them out.

Once read an interesting book on the whole worldwide counterfeit and the fashion end was especially interesting. There were cases where really big name haute couture clothing companies had used backroom dressmakers to make from scratch to grace the shoulders of fashion models and starlets. More than that when they had run out of manufacturing capacity turned to contacts in organised crime to supply the overrun. It's getting weird out there. It always was but defo getting weirder. I suppose one reason I like the vintage stuff is that while there are frankens and fakes with the popular models there are more makers with actual in house movements etc.

Monty Burnz

Wibbs wrote: »

I suppose one reason I like the vintage stuff is that while there are frankens and fakes with the popular models there are more makers with actual in house movements etc.

...and with some history. I've just picked up a watch that was issued to the Dutch army just before the Nazis invaded them in WW2. It'll be a bit rough, may have had a crown replacement too. But the connection to a hugely important historical event (and the inherent quality of the piece) bring something that no modern watch - homage or otherwise - has.

marcus1971

Another thing to bear in mind is the fact that without these factories turning out parts we wouldnt have any choice in getting a lot of our watches repaired where we want to.

Rolex for example do not supply parts outside of their own dealer network and will only supply parts on an exchange basis, and that means if your Rolex watch needs parts for repair your only choice will be to send it to a Rolex Service Centre, not your own watchmaker also if RSC for example decides that your watch if in for a service needs its dial replaced you will not have the old one returned to you..so it is impossible to keep it to preserve the originality of your watch should it turn out to be worth a fortune in a few years... if they decide it needs a new dial/case/crown they will not service it without changing it and you will not get the old one back.
Some items such as bezels inserts are available over the counter, but it is limited.

Omega are now following suit and starting to put the same system in place restricting supply of parts, which means the whole Swatch/Richemont group will probably do the same.

I buy a lot of my supplies from Ofrei in California, I think they are the largest supply company in the USA?, where they have a whole page dedicated to this .....

http://www.ofrei.com/page1505.html

..... so without the whole homage factory network turning out various bits n pieces it would probably already be impossible to get what we need to service certain of our watches as I am sure that if there was no option at all out there they would shut the door on outside suppliers.

(and before the whole frankenwatch thing rears its head, most watchmakers arent that selective about what parts they put into your watch once you have left it in for repair, they just fix them, they aren't concerned with what your watch might be worth as a collectable in the next 50 years and that its originality has been destroyed because they replaced the hands with spurious hands off the shelf that look exactly like your Rolex ones or that your 2mm Rolex springbars were replaced with cheap Chinese springbars that wiggle loose inside the lugholes and open them up and make your bracelet loose over the next 20 years, I have left 2 Rolex watches into a Rolex dealer in Dublin to have the crystals changed to have them returned to me in an envelope with the Sternkreutz (not Rolex) packet inside with the old crystal - and that WAS a Rolex Service Centre.

Wibbs

marcus1971 wrote:

I have left 2 Rolex watches into a Rolex dealer in Dublin to have the crystals changed to have them returned to me in an envelope with the Sternkreutz (not Rolex) packet inside with the old crystal - and that WAS a Rolex Service Centre.

You're not the first person I've heard similar about official service centres and not just with Rolex. Not by a long shot. And what you mentioned about movement parts? I've seen two mid line expensive watches who shall remain nameless, left into official centres for repairs and large parts of the movements were replaced with the generic ETA parts. One example had a display back, all fancy finishing and blued screws. After the "service" one section was clearly base finished and they hadn't even returned the three main blued screws in the process. On a display back. Now to be fair this guy complained. Loudly. It helped he was a solicitor and it was sorted after some long winded runaround.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

...and with some history. I've just picked up a watch that was issued to the Dutch army just before the Nazis invaded them in WW2.

Black dialled, subsecond with a W superimposed on a crown symbol? The (rare) ones I've seen were titus or grania. Rare and unusual enough watch to find. Wouldn't worry too much over the crown. A lot of those watches of that era had horrible little crowns that are a nightmare to wind and set. Basically....Sweet Pics must be forthcoming when it's in your hands and if it's already in your hands there better be pics in the pics thread pronto *raises ban hammer*


For this aside bedlam will likely ban me too. :)

I'd largey agree on the quality front, or at least the in house attention to detail of some earlier pieces. At the good quality level, low end then is often equal to mid range now and mid range then is often equal or superior to high end now. Advances in tech notwithstanding. I'm talking fit and finish here and like I said attention to detail and on in house movements too. Some were buying in Ébauche movements and adding the name(Heuer a good example), but not nearly to the degree of today. A 30's or 40's longines, IWC, Omega etc was for the most part a "complete" watch from them from start to finish. I suppose the irony being that the original kick off of this thread, Panerai, were one of those few buying in movements and adding the name after(the non Rolex movement ones being actually better as movements again with a hint of irony). So a modern Panny is in a way staying true to form

Monty Burnz

Wibbs wrote: »

Black dialled, subsecond with a W superimposed on a crown symbol? The (rare) ones I've seen were titus or grania.

Exactly, but this one's a Universal Geneve. I have a Polerouter, so I'm not sure if the new watch is extending the tiny military collection (a Revue ATP), or the tiny UG collection. I'll see if I get some snaps up in the next week or two if anyone's interested.

Flashwatches

I think we should look at it this way. There are 2 types of homage watch.

1: this watch is made from the same people that make fake watches, they copy every aspect of the watch and sell it with either a dial with the fake name or with a sterile dial (no brand name). These companies are just pure fakers and have no scruples and in my opinion should never be delt with for either the fake or "homage" sterile dial watches.

2: these watches are made by watch companies that put their own name on the dial. They take inspiration from other watches or copy aspects of them and they sell it as a homage to the other watch. This covers the debate about Rolex/Panerai and the other brands mentioned in this thread who are selling watches that look like other brand watches. There is also another reason for this, a lot of companies shared cases or were using contract cases sold to them by case manufacturers. Only a few of the watch companies actually made their own cases the rest got them from dedicated case manufacturers. These case companies had stock cases that they made in large numbers to keep pricing down. This is still done today only the cases are made in China now. I do not have a problem with these they are putting their own logo on them and in most cases are not a 100% copy of the original but are made in the style and therefore considered a homage.

BTW there are some good 50 Fathom homages out there by reputable watch companies that you don't have to get a fakers sterile one.

This is just my take on it.

Bullseye1

Well after buying this homage which is very nice BTW I'd be inclined to purchase a genuine Pany as a result. I think these serve a purpose.

CarltonBrowne

marcus1971 wrote: »

Rolex for example do not supply parts outside of their own dealer network and will only supply parts on an exchange basis.

That's interesting; I spent several hours last week helping an overseas visitor purchase a Datejust. As we couldn't find the right combination, several of the ADs in Bond Street offered to order a dial separately and at extra cost. In an effort to get the price down I suggested that they take the unwanted dial back but that wasn't on offer - we would have walked out, eventually, with two dials. Needless to say the purchase was subsequently made outside of the West End as there were no discounts on offer.

CarltonBrowne

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Exactly, but this one's a Universal Geneve.

I'm looking forward to seeing this as a UG Wilhelmina is also on my list. It shouldn't be too difficult to pick up a spare crown for it.

marcus1971

CarltonBrowne wrote: »

That's interesting; I spent several hours last week helping an overseas visitor purchase a Datejust. As we couldn't find the right combination, several of the ADs in Bond Street offered to order a dial separately and at extra cost. In an effort to get the price down I suggested that they take the unwanted dial back but that wasn't on offer - we would have walked out, eventually, with two dials. Needless to say the purchase was subsequently made outside of the West End as there were no discounts on offer.

It's strange that an AD would offer to do that for you, because as I already said it is Rolex policy to only supply inside their own network of dealers and repairers and one of the stipulations is that (most...including dials) parts are supplied on an exchange basis, I don't know if these parts are supposed to be forwarded to Rolex for verification or that the dealer holds/disposes of them).
Another strange thing is that they offered to change the dial at all. Rolex seriously frown upon customization of their watches once it leaves the factory, there are lots of posts on WUS about watches that Rolex have refused to service because the owner has made changes to the original confguration of their watch, this includes changing dials (or those God awful diamond bezels)
... wheather something as simple as a colour change is ok and the problem is with something more drastic like swapping out an AirKing dial for an Explorer dial in a 5500 for example I am not sure, but it is known to happen.

Maybe particular trading laws or consumer rights laws in different countries prevent them from implementing this policy, I do know it's their policy in the USA, maybe the UK/Ireland/EU is different?

CarltonBrowne

You may have a point about the US being different; Rolex are fairly infamous for their Spanish practices* in that market and this may be a sub-set of that.

The only dial swap that was refused was on the grounds that we were looking at a white gold case and the proposed dial had yellow gold indices; I was lead to believe that this was more of an aesthetic concern from the store manager (Wempe, Bond St) but there may have been more behind that.


*e.g. http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=179340&p=1814467&hilit=+rolex#p1814467

marcus1971

CarltonBrowne wrote: »

The only dial swap that was refused was on the grounds that we were looking at a white gold case and the proposed dial had yellow gold indices; I was lead to believe that this was more of an aesthetic concern from the store manager (Wempe, Bond St) but there may have been more behind that.

....I suspect that if the "officials" at Rolex HQ got wind of authorised dealers offering to swap dials, there would be a bit of behind the scenes knuckle rapping.

Was the watch new or used?
I would imagine it would easier for them to pass off the swap with a used watch, it will have a store specific warranty and the swap could have been done anywhere at any time.
If the watch was new with freshly stamped papers, that are valid in a worldwide dealer network, I would reckon on problems if the watch had to be returned elsewhere for warranty work as the watch would not match its production specs, which for warranty work on a new watch I am sure is checked.

Bullseye1

This is quite interesting.
http://www.watchguru.com/FullCatalogue/Watch-Details/RXW/Marina-Militare/12294

2hellr2conaght

bedlam wrote: »

We may need new mods in that case, I've been expecting a ban for my flagrant trolling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htrying to play devils advocate and failing to have us go anywhere but in circles.

(Though I will admit that homages, mainly of the getat/alpha ilk, don't "do it" for me and the following still stands:

"I would rather either put that money directly towards the item I really wanted in the long run or buy something more unique.")



Always :pac:

Is a RXW MM20 unique?