"Hitlers" Pope Saved 11,000 Jews in Rome

alex73

I don't believe Pope Pius XII was ever Hitlers Pope, The Title of a book that came out some years ago. He has been criticized for his silence in world war II.

Interesting research discovered by Pave the Way (a Jewish group)

http://www.zenit.org/article-33132?l=english

gimmebroadband

alex73 wrote: »

I don't believe Pope Pius XII was ever Hitlers Pope, The Title of a book that came out some years ago. He has been criticized for his silence in world war II.

Interesting research discovered by Pave the Way (a Jewish group)

http://www.zenit.org/article-33132?l=english

I don't believe it either!!

Exposing Hitler's Pope and it's Author!!

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3124&CFID=88834867&CFTOKEN=37379066

philologos

I think there is a mix of both within the World War II churches. Many Protestant churches were led towards Hitler's Nazi acceptable theology. Others such as the Confessing Church weren't. In the same way in the RCC we have people such as Jozef Tizo the clerofascist leader of Slovakia who gave his allegiance to Hitler and widely endorsed anti-Semitism, we no doubt have others who protected Jewish people.

Manach

I'd agree in general with Philologos, based on works by the historian Michael Burleigh ("Sacred Causes"). The records of the Churches (RCC+ Prot.) were not unblemished but in general they provided some form of protest against the regimes. Saying that, that which the Orthodox churches had to contend with was on a different scale.

prinz

alex73 wrote: »

I don't believe Pope Pius XII was ever Hitlers Pope, The Title of a book that came out some years ago. He has been criticized for his silence in world war II.

Referring to him as Hitler's Pope was a nonsense attempt to stir up some controversy. It's fairly clear that Pius like most others of the time was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He didn't exactly cover himself in glory but he certainly wasn't a puppet of Hitler.

crotalus667

prinz wrote: »

He didn't exactly cover himself in glory but he certainly wasn't a puppet of Hitler.

He aided people wanted for war crimes to evade jusitice

alex73

crotalus667 wrote: »

He aided people wanted for war crimes to evade jusitice

Aided who exactly?

prinz

crotalus667 wrote: »

He aided people wanted for war crimes to evade jusitice

You have proof of this? That he personally did that?

PDN

prinz wrote: »

You have proof of this? That he personally did that?

He's probably referring to the notorious ratlines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_%28World_War_II%29
Although some Catholic clergy were heavily involved in this, there seems to be little or no evidence of any papal involvement.

prinz

PDN wrote: »

He's probably referring to the notorious ratlines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_%28World_War_II%29
Although some Catholic clergy were heavily involved in this, there seems to be little or no evidence of any papal involvement.

I guessed as much.

Asry

I have that book, actually. Snatched it up second hand, but gave it to my mother's boyfriend? partner? He's in his 60s and she's middle 50s so she says she's too old for him to be her boyfriend! Anyway we're both WWII junkies and I'm waiting to get the book back! I'll see how biased it is anyways and let yous know.

prinz

Asry wrote: »

I have that book, actually. Snatched it up second hand, but gave it to my mother's boyfriend? partner? He's in his 60s and she's middle 50s so she says she's too old for him to be her boyfriend! Anyway we're both WWII junkies and I'm waiting to get the book back! I'll see how biased it is anyways and let yous know.

You don't need to do all that. While it would be good to read the author of it has himself rowed back on his position since, after the book was criticised from a lot of sides..

Devil's advocates were supposed to be fair-minded, and in the past Mr Cornwell, a prolific writer on Catholic matters, has at times been anything but. As he admits, “Hitler's Pope” (1999), his biography of Pope Pius XII, lacked balance. “I would now argue,” he says, “in the light of the debates and evidence following ‘Hitler's Pope', that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the Germans.”

http://www.economist.com/node/3471137?story_id=E1_PQSTTPS

Cornwell put 2 and 2 together and repeatedly came up with 5. It should be read with that in mind. A Newsweek piece on the book says it all really..

Most of his sources are secondary and written by Pacelli's harshest critics. Errors of fact and ignorance of context appear on all most every page. Cornwell questions Pacelli's every motive, but never doubts those who tell a different story. This is bogus scholarship, filled with nonexistent secrets, aimed to shock.

http://www.newsweek.com/1999/09/26/the-case-against-pius-xii.html

Jericho Smith

To philologos

In reply to what you said earlier about the Slovakian dictatorship, run by a priest. I actually had the honor of meeting a Jew from Slovakia who survived Bergen-Belsen and the Holocaust. His views of how the Church betrayed him and his family go a hell (excuse pun) of a long way to be fair, it is very notable to point this out.
The church as an entity stood idly by and allowed the Nazis to rape and pillage its way across Europe with little to no condemnation bar a few clerical letters. The most notable was the letter "with burning anxiety" sent from the pope to Hitler as condemnation not for mass murder by their favorite Catholic (Hitler-please do not refer to him as an atheist as he frequently refers to the almighty strengthening his hand as he cleansed the Jews) but for his actions of going against the roman-Nazi concordat.
The church did stand by and do nothing. Now for the reprieve some clerics did save the Jews and did work against the Nazis during WW2 even while the protestants were in Hitlers back pocket. These like the "Vatican Pimpernel" an Irish man did great deeds but indeed the actual Church did very little to save anyone and stood by while the most blood soaked period of our history took place. This is a difference of opinion but i think with research you will find that the Church stood and did little to stop Hitler and collaberated( much like the french )much more than they condemned.

Jericho

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The most notable was the letter "with burning anxiety" sent from the pope to Hitler as condemnation not for mass murder by their favorite Catholic

Please, please, please go back and look at that again. (A) it wasn't a letter from the Pope to Hitler it was an encyclical to all Catholics in Germany copies of which had to be smuggled into Nazi Germany (B) it had nothing to do with mass murder, because the extent of the Nazis willingness to commit mass murder was yet to be revealed, the encyclical was read in 1937 (C) it was very clear on the message it sent about the Church's view of the incompatability of Nazism with Catholicism (D) it is widely accepted as being the first public document to speak out so forcefully against Nazism and following it being read out every Diocese in Nazi Germany was searched by the Gestapo and all copies of the encyclical found were destroyed (so much for a letter to Hitler) and finally (E) the encyclical against Nazism was sent out and read out in public a year and a half before the Munich Conference when the western allies were stil busy signing away Czechoslovakia to Hitler in an effort to keep appeasing him.

I'd say it also passed you by that priests/nuns and other clerics were murdered by the thousands in Nazi occupied Europe. Were they also 'standing by'?

The Catholic Church was particularly suppressed in Poland: between 1939 and 1945, an estimated 3,000 members (18%) of the Polish clergy, were murdered; of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps.[25] In the annexed territory of Reichsgau Wartheland it was even more harsh: churches were systematically closed and most priests were either killed, imprisoned, or deported to the General Government. Eighty per cent of the Catholic clergy and five bishops of Warthegau were sent to concentration camps in 1939; 108 of them are regarded as blessed martyrs.[25] Religious persecution was not confined to Poland: in Dachau concentration camp alone, 2,600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries were killed.[25] Some dissenting German Protestant clergy, such as those who founded the anti-Nazi Confessing Church, were also persecuted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Religious_persecution

Jericho Smith

I reply with a short statement to be franks, that yes they did stand by. If you have read the infamous book Mein kampf you will see how his mass murder was well documented and he was fully committed to kill all the Jews (with exceptions of his two other ideas to deport them). The holocaust did happen and much of the Christian world knew it would happen Hitler made it very very abundantly clear he was going to it in his speeches his writings and his Nuremberg laws. The pope infallible as he is and gods vessel on earth must of missed that somehow. Yes many Christians were killed in WW2 actually to be fair most of the dead were Christians in some form or another you know of the exceptions. Religion was violently repressed during the war on many many sides. That doesn't escape the question of how the Church besides from reading the encyclical (thanks for saying the name it escaped me ):) it has no real affect on a man who was committed to near world domination and the curtailment of freedom of speech. The Church brokered deals with Hitler and priests were among those who perpetrated great hardship on the jews.

Jericho

jhegarty

Jericho Smith wrote: »

I If you have read the infamous book Mein kampf you will see how his mass murder was well documented

Mein kampf was published in 1925, long before he had any power in Germany.

I think you need to buy some history books.

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

I reply with a short statement to be franks, that yes they did stand by. If you have read the infamous book Mein kampf you will see how his mass murder was well documented and he was fully committed to kill all the Jews (with exceptions of his two other ideas to deport them).

I have read Mein Kampf and a mass programme of extermination/killing all of the Jews is not actually mentioned in the book. Even if it was the same argument could be used against the Jews themselves, or the Germans, or the Poles, or the British..

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The holocaust did happen and much of the Christian world knew it would happen .

They didn't know things were going to turn out the way they did no. Not even Nazi supporters back in Germany knew exactly what was going on.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Hitler made it very very abundantly clear he was going to it in his speeches his writings and his Nuremberg laws.

In the clear light of hindsight.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The pope infallible as he is and gods vessel on earth must of missed that somehow..

Perhaps you should look up papal infallibility as well as Mit Brennender Sorge.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

That doesn't escape the question of how the Church besides from reading the encyclical (thanks for saying the name it escaped me ):) it has no real affect on a man who was committed to near world domination and the curtailment of freedom of speech. ..

...and what do you suggest the Church as an entity could have done?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The Church brokered deals with Hitler...

As did virtually every large organisation in Germany, most of the countries in Europe and many countries beyond.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

and priests were among those who perpetrated great hardship on the jews.

Yes they were.

Jericho Smith

that sentence makes no sense whatsoever. you further prove my point ... i know full well when it was written the economic and social situation it was published in and where he wrote and why. Now when a RC man publishes a book about wanting to kill slavs, jews and any one else he didn't like does that not matter because he has no power. Also FUN FACT mein kampf was placed in every church right across Nazi Germany as an alternative to the bible in the reichkirche and many RC churches with open arms. So tell me how they would fail to notice this ?

I have many history books but i generally prefer to use my mind, much more powerful in every respect.

Jericho

Jericho Smith

If we consider how greatly he has sinned against the masses in the course of the centuries, how he has squeezed and sucked the blood again and again; if furthermore, we consider how the people gradually learned to hate him for this, and ended up by regarding his existence as nothing but punishment of Heaven for the other peoples, we can understand how hard this shift must be for the Jew.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

A man the RCC never took seriously till he rolled his tanks all over europe, you obviously have not read Mein Kampf as it is plain to see from all who read it of how blatently obvious it all was that he was serious. The man was voted in in 1933 and put his plan into action he murdered and killed in the name of the "almighty" something he frequently refers to "see triumph of the will" as well as his ideology warped as it may be. the RCC without ant intelligent source of leadership did lesss than nothing to stop Hitler it was a failure for all catholic and is a failure for humanity. Collaberation was rampant and i hesitate to wonder who would defend the two out of the three biggest murders of all time.

Jericho

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

If we consider how greatly he has sinned against the masses in the course of the centuries, how he has squeezed and sucked the blood again and again; if furthermore, we consider how the people gradually learned to hate him for this, and ended up by regarding his existence as nothing but punishment of Heaven for the other peoples, we can understand how hard this shift must be for the Jew.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

...and from that you claim that a mass extermination/plans for a holocaust was abundantly clear? Can you include the quote from Mein Kampf where the plans for death factories on an industrial scale and the co-ordinated scheme to eradicate all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe perhaps? I'll give you a clue, it isn't there. The so-called Final Solution emerged at the Wannsee Conference almost two decades after Mein Kampf was written.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

A man the RCC never took seriously till he rolled his tanks all over europe,

A man the very few took seriously, including mightI add his own colleague Mussolini who laughed off Mein Kampf as a bit of a joke filled with clichéd populist nonsense.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

you obviously have not read Mein Kampf as it is plain to see from all who read it of how blatently obvious it all was that he was serious.

It's only blatantly obvious for people reading it with the benefit of hindsight. For other people all they see is the inane ramblings of an outsider fringe fanatic, it just so happens that this fanatic ended up at the head of an almight military machine.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

the RCC without ant intelligent source of leadership did lesss than nothing to stop Hitler

Just what were they supposed to do?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

and i hesitate to wonder who would defend the two out of the three biggest murders of all time.

What are you talking about?

Jericho Smith

First things first i applaud your passion and your stoic belief in Christianity and by proxy religion by defending it so valiantly. Hitler (please do not call him insane i only say that because to be fair to the mentally insane) as i said before proposed many times in his speaches to "cleanse" the Jews that much is very clear but to take a modern example when a world leader says in his book that Jews are the scum of the earth generally we pay attention. EG Iranian president allimenijiad(more than likely spelt wrong) who still deny s the holocaust ever happened at all. He made it very clear what was going to happen to them including telling them all he wanted them to die, the Nuremberg laws, krisstalnacht, the anti-semetic campaign and so on. many people did take him very seriously after he invaded poland and conquered europe in a very short space of time. Yes you are correct about Mussolini but who later said how he feared him on his second trip to italy. FACT. Yes we do have the benefit of hindsight but for those who had some degree of reason like the thousands who fled germany it looked pretty clear what was happening and what was going to happen to them if they stayed. Yes he was a fringe fundamentalist but once in power in 1933 there was plenty of time to see he meant business, That is why chamberlain is characterized in history as being a passive coward who in trying to promote pacifism ( an idea i deplore in some cases). "peace in our time" be damned britain and france were preparing for all out war millions fled to the safetly of america before the war started. FACT. The three biggest murders of all time stalin, hitler and the roman catholic church in there as well.

i not trying to mislead you or change your beliefs i only ask you to look at the evidence from a reasoned point of view. The RCC has much to account for, it remains peaceful at times of great unrest and it instigates great unrest in times of peace.

Jericho

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

First things first i applaud your passion and your stoic belief in Christianity and by proxy religion by defending it so valiantly.

I am not defending anything. Merely highlighting the truth of what actually happened.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Hitler (please do not call him insane i only say that because to be fair to the mentally insane) as i said before proposed many times in his speaches to "cleanse" the Jews that much is very clear..

A speech in 1939 AFAIK is the earliest public threat by Hitler to have any sort of murderous campaign against all Jews. Months before anyone declared war.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

but to take a modern example when a world leader says in his book that Jews are the scum of the earth generally we pay attention EG Iranian president allimenijiad(more than likely spelt wrong) who still deny s the holocaust ever happened at all..

Where do you think people learned that lesson? Was Hitler a world leader when he wrote Mein Kampf? No, he was a virtual nobody writing from a prison cell. He wasn't elected. He had no power.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

He made it very clear what was going to happen to them including telling them all he wanted them to die, the Nuremberg laws, krisstalnacht, the anti-semetic campaign and so on...

Still nothing from Mein Kampf though, which was your original claim was it not?....

Jericho Smith wrote: »

If you have read the infamous book Mein kampf you will see how his mass murder was well documented...

Yes it was.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

many people did take him very seriously after he invaded poland and conquered europe in a very short space of time....

...some people took him seriously before that. Mit Brennender Sorge was in 1937, as I said, 18 months later Britain and France were still engaged in appeasing Hitler. You still haven't answered though what exactly the RCC could have done?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

like the thousands who fled germany it looked pretty clear what was happening and what was going to happen to them if they stayed....

So it wasn't only the Christian world that knew what was going to happen, the Jewish world knew too? What did they do?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The three biggest murders of all time stalin, hitler and the roman catholic church in there as well.....

If you say so.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

i not trying to mislead you or change your beliefs i only ask you to look at the evidence from a reasoned point of view.

Perhaps you should check out those history books you mentioned having.

Jericho Smith

I actually find your style of argument quite amusing instead of making a point about anything in reality you poke holes in peoples arguments in order to make yourself out to be more intelligent about that facts than you really are, and when cornered on an issue you insult me by saying i should read a history book. Well to be honest Wiki-wizard your wrong fully and completely your argument is flawed lets examine why shall we?

Originally Posted by Jericho Smith
First things first i applaud your passion and your stoic belief in Christianity and by proxy religion by defending it so valiantly.
I am not defending anything. Merely highlighting the truth of what actually happened
lets start here, you are saying you know everything that happened in world war two in relation to the RCC. I look forward to hearing what you have to say and please stop misquoting me it becomes tiresome, your talk about the "1939 AFAIK is the earliest public threat by Hitler to have any sort of murderous campaign against all Jews" is actually not true he made frequent references before that, worry not you can borrow my history books. Mein kampf mentions nothing about death camps, nor did i say it did it did however outline his hatred of the jews and how he wanted a pure race germeny, join the dots together you do not ned incredible hindsight to see this anyone with an intelligent head on their shoulders can see that. You are right that hitler wrote mein kampf while in jail a number of years before taking power, thats very true. It must of been lost and noone would of read it when he was in power? as i said it was in every church in every school, in every office, in every public building in germany. but no, he wrote that before he was in power obviously he didnt mean it anymore ?
"You still haven't answered though what exactly the RCC could have done"
i shall tell you much like the Zionist movement will, the RCC should not have collaborated should of condemned Hitler not make pacts with him or attempted any sort of relationship and called for Christians to completely boycott the Nazi party and used its clout to force others to act. Many jews from working class background could not offered to leave germany or poland. there was heavy taxes put in place in germany to charge jews leaving the country the working class was forced to move to the ghettos and had no where to run or to hide. Warsaw ghetto another example, poor jews pushed into a confined area and writings were discovered of how they knew what was going to happpen.

"So it wasn't only the Christian world that knew what was going to happen, the Jewish world knew too? What did they do?"

The rich left as fast as they could mass emigration from Germany took place in 1933-1939, the Jews as you know have been persecuted for many millenia and have a population of less than 14 million nowadays. They had no country and antisemitism was ripe around the world, Britain, Russia,china etc none as bad as Germany obviously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jericho Smith
The three biggest murders of all time stalin, hitler and the roman catholic church in there as well.....
If you say so.

Stalin 30-35 million people, collectivization, great patriotic war, purges, penal system etc
Hitler 20-25 million people, the war, holocaust, secret police, penal system
RCC 20-100 ,million people , the crusades, witch hunting, inquisition, religious fundamentalism etc ...

To finish i would just like to say that the RCC did in fact abandon the people of Europe, Hitlers pope was the same man who did next to nothing to stop the tragedy. How much he could of done is debatable but still he could of acted and not sat on his hands while a genocide occured. they are the facts.

Good day sir

Jericho

crucamim

Jericho Smith wrote: »

I reply with a short statement to be franks, that yes they did stand by.

Thank you for not saying "stand idly by".

What did you do about the slaughter in Rhanda? Or Bosnia?

Jericho Smith

Well when the Rwandan genocide happened in 1994 i was moving on to the big toilet as i was two years old, in 1995 i think i was speaking a bit better as i was three years old. In 2003 at the ripe old age of 11 i joined the march against the war in Iraq and i am an avid member of amnesty International and have a group in Dundalk. I am not unfortunately a 1.2 billion strong 2000 year old organisation with near infinite resources. Does that anwer your question?

Jericho

alex73

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The church as an entity stood idly by and allowed the Nazis to rape and pillage its way across Europe with little to no condemnation bar a few clerical letters.

Step back and look at Europe in 1938-42. What was he to do? Declare war on Germany? Because by openly attacking Hitler it would have meant condemning many Catholics to death.

The Church did not stand by... As much help as possible was done behind the scenes to save as many as possible. Many clergy gave their lifes to save others... Many Convents and monasteries hid jews. Lets not forget who drafted encyclical Mit brennender Sorge.

Even with his silence, Nazis murdered over 2,500 monks and priests, Can you imagine what would have happened if the Pope has made a speech in Rome attaching Hitler.

The world today is a different place. And anti catholic sentiment colours peoples perspective of historical events. But if you look at the facts as they are you should be able to reason that the Pope was far from a Friend of Hitler.

alex73

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Hitlers pope was the same man who did next to nothing to stop the tragedy. How much he could of done is debatable but still he could of acted and not sat on his hands while a genocide occured. they are the facts.

The link on the thread was to a Jewish Group ... Jewish research that showed how the Pope Personally Saved 11,000 jews from deportation. I suppose this research counts for nothing in your eyes.

crucamim

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Well when the Rwandan genocide happened in 1994 i was moving on to the big toilet as i was two years old, in 1995 i think i was speaking a bit better as i was three years old. In 2003 at the ripe old age of 11 i joined the march against the war in Iraq and i am an avid member of amnesty International and have a group in Dundalk. I am not unfortunately a 1.2 billion strong 2000 year old organisation with near infinite resources. Does that anwer your question?

Jericho

You were not alive at the time of Hitler and now seek to pass judgement on those who were at risk. When you were taking part in the march against the war in Iraq, were you putting yourself at risk?

Sioux Indians have a proverb "Do not pass judgement on your neighbour until you have walked a mile in his shoes." An Irish equivalent is "Do not find fault with how your neighbour rears her children until you have your own children reared."

crucamim

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Well when the Rwandan genocide happened in 1994 i was moving on to the big toilet as i was two years old, in 1995 i think i was speaking a bit better as i was three years old. In 2003 at the ripe old age of 11 i joined the march against the war in Iraq and i am an avid member of amnesty International and have a group in Dundalk. I am not unfortunately a 1.2 billion strong 2000 year old organisation with near infinite resources. Does that anwer your question?

Jericho

What did your parents do about the genocide in Rwanda? Or in Bosnia? Or about the burning of Bombay Street? Have you reprimanded your parents about standing idly by? Or your grand-parents?

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

I actually find your style of argument quite amusing instead of making a point about anything in reality you poke holes in peoples arguments in order to make yourself out to be more intelligent about that facts than you really are..

Poking holes in arguments, because there are plenty of holes in yours to poke.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

....and when cornered on an issue you insult me by saying i should read a history book.

On what issue have I been "cornered"? I'd rather rely on a history book than my own warped views..

Jericho Smith wrote: »

I have many history books but i generally prefer to use my mind, much more powerful in every respect.

Much more powerful.....and much more likely to be totally wrong.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Well to be honest Wiki-wizard your wrong fully and completely your argument is flawed lets examine why shall we?

Wiki-wizard? :pac:. Fully wrong? Really - point out something I have said that is 'fully wrong'...

Jericho Smith wrote: »

lets start here, you are saying you know everything that happened in world war two in relation to the RCC. I look forward to hearing what you have to say and please stop misquoting me it becomes tiresome,

Where have I misquoted you?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

your talk about the "1939 AFAIK is the earliest public threat by Hitler to have any sort of murderous campaign against all Jews" is actually not true he made frequent references before that, worry not you can borrow my history books.

He made frequent public references to killing all Jews? Where?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Mein kampf mentions nothing about death camps, nor did i say it did it did however outline his hatred of the jews and how he wanted a pure race germeny, join the dots together you do not ned incredible hindsight to see this anyone with an intelligent head on their shoulders can see that.

What does this have to do with...

If you have read the infamous book Mein kampf you will see how his mass murder was well documented and he was fully committed to kill all the Jews

Are you now saying that mass murder was not well documented in Mein Kampf? Where does he mentioned killing all Jews everywhere in Mein Kampf?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

You are right that hitler wrote mein kampf while in jail a number of years before taking power, thats very true. It must of been lost and noone would of read it when he was in power? as i said it was in every church in every school, in every office, in every public building in germany. but no, he wrote that before he was in power obviously he didnt mean it anymore ?

People did take notice. Winston Churchill being one. However what does mean?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

"You still haven't answered though what exactly the RCC could have done"
i shall tell you much like the Zionist movement will, the RCC should not have collaborated should of condemned Hitler not make pacts with him or attempted any sort of relationship and called for Christians to completely boycott the Nazi party and used its clout to force others to act.

Firstly I don't give a hoot what the Zionist movement has to say on anything. Secondly what you mention above is exactly what the Mit Brennender Sorge encyclical said. Also the recommendations of the Conference of German Bishops in Fulda

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Many jews from working class background could not offered to leave germany or poland. there was heavy taxes put in place in germany to charge jews leaving the country the working class was forced to move to the ghettos and had no where to run or to hide. Warsaw ghetto another example, poor jews pushed into a confined area and writings were discovered of how they knew what was going to happpen.

........and?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The rich left as fast as they could mass emigration from Germany took place in 1933-1939, the Jews as you know have been persecuted for many millenia and have a population of less than 14 million nowadays. They had no country and antisemitism was ripe around the world, Britain, Russia,china etc none as bad as Germany obviously.

So these Jews stood by. They emigrated and abandoned their fellow Jews.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

To finish i would just like to say that the RCC did in fact abandon the people of Europe, Hitlers pope was the same man who did next to nothing to stop the tragedy. How much he could of done is debatable but still he could of acted and not sat on his hands while a genocide occured. they are the facts..

They still could have acted. You just don't have the first notion of how exactly.

prinz

alex73 wrote: »

Step back and look at Europe in 1938-42. What was he to do? Declare war on Germany?

Organise a crusade against the Nazis of course.. then we could add another few millions and another crusade onto the RCC's total as world's biggest murderer and complain some more.. laughable

alex73

Regarding Jericho Smith, He fits perfectly into an article I read some weeks ago "Is Google Making Us Forgetful?" He should learn to form his "own" reasoned opinions and not copying his threads from the internet.

Jericho Smith

Let me get this straight your defending the papacy? why ?

Jericho

Jericho Smith

Please explain to me what your actually defending? your defending the papacy ? i would really like to know why you are doing that?

Jericho

alex73

Who earned himself as Cardinal the title in Berlin. "enemy of the Nazi party"?

Jericho Smith

alex73 wrote: »

Regarding Jericho Smith, He fits perfectly into an article I read some weeks ago "Is Google Making Us Forgetful?" He should learn to form his "own" reasoned opinions and not copying his threads from the internet.

Sorry but all i have said in this debate were my own personal opinions, perhaps you were confused because you cant accept someone is much more intelligent than you are. perhaps all this blind faith has detached you from actuall reality, im recommend a doctor but i think you would enjoy an exorcist a bit more.

Jericho

Jericho Smith

alex73 wrote: »

Who earned himself as Cardinal the title in Berlin. "enemy of the Nazi party"?

please answer my question?

Jericho

alex73

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Sorry but all i have said in this debate were my own personal opinions, perhaps you were confused because you cant accept someone is much more intelligent than you are. perhaps all this blind faith has detached you from actuall reality, im recommend a doctor but i think you would enjoy an exorcist a bit more.

Jericho

Most of which are not based on hard historical facts... they are just opinions. And what is worse your anti-Catholic bias makes you want to believe opinions that are not rooted in the reality of history.

As for you being intelligent... That's also your opinion.

Jericho Smith

You still have yet to answer my question? why are you defending the papacy? why do you believe he is a hero of WW2 and deserves respect?
its a very simple question ...

Jericho

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Let me get this straight your defending the papacy? why ?Jericho

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Please explain to me what your actually defending? your defending the papacy ? i would really like to know why you are doing that?Jericho

You are confusing two different things Jeri. I am questioning your nonsense, nothing more, nothing less. Do you think everyone should just hop aboard rubbish, previously debunked arguments and ignore factual historical happenings?

alex73

The Thread is about Pope Pius XII, Not the Papacy. I don't believe he was Hitler's Pope and the thread is in response to new research by a Jewish Group. Hard Facts.

If you want to go off topic on Defending the Papacy then open a new Thread.

Keep on topic. What facts determine that the Pope of the time was supporting Nazi Germany?

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Sorry but all i have said in this debate were my own personal opinions...

Never saw that coming. It always better in a debate about historical happenings that personal opinions are backed up by some facts.

Fanny Cradock

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Sorry but all i have said in this debate were my own personal opinions, perhaps you were confused because you cant accept someone is much more intelligent than you are. perhaps all this blind faith has detached you from actuall reality, im recommend a doctor but i think you would enjoy an exorcist a bit more.

Jericho

Oh, you are pushing it now! You get a free pass because it's your first day.

Jericho Smith

ill ask one more time why are you defending the papacy? apparently you believe he must be a good man, since i feel the opposite and am being chastised for it so please exaplain. Please dont insult my arguement its actually incredibly factual and yours is hinged on little more than well.... i actually dont know you have spent so much time bashing me about my dislike of the papacy you never actually told me where you stand on the whole thing, so please inform me why he is great?

Jericho Smith

lads to be fair i think your confusing intelligence with irritation, as i think you are just out to be annoying and not provide any actual information. The papacy is a term used to describe the office of the pope, and your insulting my intelligence laughable truly it is . please consult a book before you make me laugh further your pope was not a good man nor has any pope since the beginning of Christianity because and this is fact ... they are intolerant of everyone who does not agree with their point of view,END OF.

Jericho

alex73

Jericho Smith wrote: »

ill ask one more time why are you defending the papacy? apparently you believe he must be a good man, since i feel the opposite and am being chastised for it so please exaplain. Please dont insult my arguement its actually incredibly factual and yours is hinged on little more than well.... i actually dont know you have spent so much time bashing me about my dislike of the papacy you never actually told me where you stand on the whole thing, so please inform me why he is great?

What to you mean by Papacy.. The Seat of Rome of St. Peter.. Or the Man who was holding the Office Pope Pius XII?

The thread is about Pope Pius XII, His silence during WWII and how he wasn't Hitlers Pope.

He was a great man because he made 40 known public speeches attacking Nazism or condemnations of Hitler’s doctrines when he was Cardinal.

Jericho Smith

The hypocritical nature of the RCC and your only argument is he gave 40 speeches and wrote of how bad it was. That is the foundation of your argument of why he was a good man ? what else did he do that was good ?

Jericho

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Please dont insult my arguement its actually incredibly factual

...and yet the one thing you claimed to be in Mein Kampf originally you couldn't back up... it was all downhill from there. Why don't you open up the history books you claim to have there and answer some of the questions which have been put to you?

alex73

Jericho Smith wrote: »

The hypocritical nature of the RCC and your only argument is he gave 40 speeches and wrote of how bad it was. That is the foundation of your argument of why he was a good man ? what else did he do that was good ?

Jericho

What would you have had him do? Do you honestly think he stood by in Rome doing nothing to stop the horror of the war? Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie. So what was his lie, What backs up your assertion he was a hypocrite?

Facts now... Not Biased opinions.

An on THIS topic.

Jericho Smith

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.-adolf hitler ...

prinz

Jericho Smith wrote: »

adolf hitler ...

Yup. Good man yourself.