Interns and monthly stipend

terraces

Hi everyone,

I'd like to know what kind of contract I must issue in order to have interns in a company (that has no employees), and pay them a stipend for a month work - and not a per-hour salary - without any legal issue (re. minimum wage, etc.). Note this is a real internship, i.e. the interns will gain work experience, have regular supervision meeting, etc.

We phoned the DJEI and they told us we cannot have interns unless we're part of the National Internship Schema / FAS, and that we must employ them (subject to minimal wages) but we may have missed something. Alternatively, can such people be hired on an invoice basis - and does it change things legally ?

Thanks

Mrs OBumble

I'd strongly suggest getting advice from your lawyer and accountant before making any decisions.

If you don't have a lawyer and accountant, then I wouldn't expect you're well enough established to be looking at having interns.

Issues you need to think about include insurance: You probably don't want to, but consider what happens if one of the interns injures themself on the job? What if they do something that causes a material loss to one of your clients? Etc.

Delancey

OP - I'm curious as to your need for interns when by your own admission you have no employees ?
What is the nature of your business ? What duties would the interns undertake ?

terraces

Hi,

@JustMary

I'd strongly suggest getting advice from your lawyer and accountant before making any decisions.

I'm asking here because we cannot afford lawyer services at that point. I'll ask our accountant but would like further advices to know what's the best way to get someone working on some tasks and get a stipend for it (invoice, contractor, intern, etc.)

@Delancey

OP - I'm curious as to your need for interns when by your own admission you have no employees ? What is the nature of your business ? What duties would the interns undertake ?

We're a web start-up. No employees are only the founders are on board and we do not pay nor employ ourselves. Interns will mostly do some programming.

blorg

So you want some programmers but you don't want to pay them.

Good luck with that.

terraces

Hi,

blorg wrote: »

So you want some programmers

No. I want some students that want to learn / improve programming by working on our system. They'll learn, be supervised, and our product improves. Fair-deal, that's what internships are for.

blorg wrote: »

but you don't want to pay them.

No. I will pay them. I'm just trying to know what's the best way to pay them a monthly stipend, rather than the minimal wages - since anyway they will not do the work that a programmer will do. Whether it's invoicing, short term contract, consultant, part-time, etc.

not even wrong

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/employment_support_schemes/national_internship_scheme.html
The host organisation (HO) must have at least one full-time employee working 30 hours a week or more.

nice try but you're going to have to pay your employees the legal minimum wage like everyone else.

ToxicPaddy

Not according to some of the interns we have working here.

Some of their college class mates are doing unpaid internships with companies in Ireland. Its a requirement of their course and the companies are under no obligation to pay them as its on the job learning.

As unfair as I think that is and I for one don't agree with it, it does happen and fairly regularly..

allibastor

OP,

god as said above, i hope no one applies to you for this job.

if you do not have the organisational structure to employ a company solicitor how have you managed any of your legal affairs thus far. you also say that yourself and the other founders so not draw pay? are you sure you are set up as a company that can take employees.

if it is a genuine job you are offering for training, and not some scummy attempt to get free/ cheap workers the only thing you can do is sub-contract work to these people you are looking to hire. have them set up as smaller sole traders who submit monthly invoices to you. your accountant could look after there invoices also.

but please do as google says and dont be evil, these people are graduates you are looking for, not monkeys.

not even wrong

allibastor wrote: »

if it is a genuine job you are offering for training, and not some scummy attempt to get free/ cheap workers the only thing you can do is sub-contract work to these people you are looking to hire. have them set up as smaller sole traders who submit monthly invoices to you. your accountant could look after there invoices also.

You cannot evade the minimum wage laws simply by declaring all your employees to be "independent contractors", the employment rights people will look at their overall conditions of service and consider them to be an employee regardless.

Also why are people offering this individual advice on how best to implement their unethical (and most likely illegal as well) scheme to exploit young unemployed people? I am very dubious that a startup with no employees, no solicitor and no salaries being paid has the structure needed for a proper internship program. The question being asked here is basically "how do I get around the minimum wage laws?"

allibastor

not even wrong wrote: »

You cannot evade the minimum wage laws simply by declaring all your employees to be "independent contractors", the employment rights people will look at their overall conditions of service and consider them to be an employee regardless.

Also why are people offering this individual advice on how best to implement their unethical (and most likely illegal as well) scheme to exploit young unemployed people? I am very dubious that a startup with no employees, no solicitor and no salaries being paid has the structure needed for a proper internship program. The question being asked here is basically "how do I get around the minimum wage laws?"

hang on now a sec, if you read my post you would see that i asked firstly if he was even legally able to take employees. you still need to be able to take staff and contractors on from a legal standpoint so if he cant take on staff he cant take on sub contractors. second i did also say if they are not real jobs then dont bother with them. and as a sub contractor it will give the employee a bit more room to manover with thier wage and conditions as they are under no obligation to stay at the company. if you have any expeience with this type of work you might see it is the best of a bad situation. i had a brother doing the same type of work with a web based company and when he got sick of it he had no contract period to work out, he simply rang one day and said happy trails.

saying that if this company is an exploiter then staff will see this and can complain to the employment regulator for unfair practises. i above all else would like to see a devious employer dragged through the courts and be named and shamed. believe me there are enough of them there.

thanks

terraces

not even wrong wrote: »

nice try but you're going to have to pay your employees the legal minimum wage like everyone else.

Thanks - that's the link I got from DJEI and indeed I already saw we're not eligible.

terraces

allibastor wrote: »

OP,

god as said above, i hope no one applies to you for this job.

if you do not have the organisational structure to employ a company solicitor how have you managed any of your legal affairs thus far. you also say that yourself and the other founders so not draw pay? are you sure you are set up as a company that can take employees.

We are set up, and registered to taxes for employment. We have a solicitor. I came here for other advices.

allibastor wrote: »

if it is a genuine job you are offering for training, and not some scummy attempt to get free/ cheap workers the only thing you can do is sub-contract work to these people you are looking to hire. have them set up as smaller sole traders who submit monthly invoices to you. your accountant could look after there invoices also.

but please do as google says and dont be evil, these people are graduates you are looking for, not monkeys.

Thanks for the hint. That's what we've done so far for other contractors - I was wondering if there was alternative for people that are not sole traders, e.g. students wanted summer internships, but apparently that's not the case.

terraces

not even wrong wrote: »

You cannot evade the minimum wage laws simply by declaring all your employees to be "independent contractors", the employment rights people will look at their overall conditions of service and consider them to be an employee regardless.

Thanks for the link.

not even wrong wrote: »

I am very dubious that a startup with no employees, no solicitor and no salaries being paid has the structure needed for a proper internship program. The question being asked here is basically "how do I get around the minimum wage laws?"

Without going into the company details, we have the structure, we're registered, etc. as I said previously. And the question is "can I pay someone a monthly stipend for some internship work rather than registering them as part-time employees". As done in many countries - as as I've done in the past when being a student. If that's not doable, fair enough, that's just what I needed to know.

allibastor

hi terraces,

i am a bit unclear as to what you are looking for in the post. you have said already that you cannot afford legal costs etc, i think in your second post here. if you have a solicitor then they will be able to advise you on what you need to do, but going on what you said you dont have one, but in your recent post you do now have one.

and to agree with not even wrong, you have two employment choices condisering you dont have the organisation facilities to employee interns, you either sub contract or you have to employ them directly. it is called employment law for a reason and what you are asking is for a way to try and circumvent it.
i would say the main reason the WWP programe wont allow you to use thier service is that you dont sound like you would have a comprehesive method to train and monitor staff other that having a company founder looking after them. even for companies that abuse this syste, and there is plenty, they still have to prove they have the organisational structure to monitor and asses the learning or training of staff

thanks

terraces

Hi,allibastor

allibastor wrote: »

hi terraces,
i am a bit unclear as to what you are looking for in the post. you have said already that you cannot afford legal costs etc, i think in your second post here. if you have a solicitor then they will be able to advise you on what you need to do, but going on what you said you dont have one, but in your recent post you do now have one.

I was probably unclear: we used a solicitor to setup the company, taxes, etc. I'm asking for advices here to avoid additional solicitor fees - but that eventually may be the only option.

allibastor wrote: »

and to agree with not even wrong, you have two employment choices condisering you dont have the organisation facilities to employee interns, you either sub contract or you have to employ them directly. it is called employment law for a reason and what you are asking is for a way to try and circumvent it.

No. I'm asking for information about employment law and internships, I'm not trying to circumvent it. But subcontract may be the best option as that's only for short periods.

allibastor wrote: »

i would say the main reason the WWP programe wont allow you to use thier service is that you dont sound like you would have a comprehesive method to train and monitor staff other that having a company founder looking after them. even for companies that abuse this syste, and there is plenty, they still have to prove they have the organisational structure to monitor and asses the learning or training of staff
thanks

Ok, I understand that the WWP will not allow this as none of us is employee. I'll check details about subcontracting.

Thanks for the constructive comment.

allibastor

just please dont use the good faith of boards posters if you are planning on screwing some young people over who are in desperate need of a job and experience. dont be evil has served google well

freeze4real

My bro actually works for a company similiar to the OP's one. I could name the company and it could be the op's own but i wont.
afaik he's getting paid 200 a month and transport is being paid.


some say its slave labour but the experience gained means that one can get a job straight after college, or increases the possibility.

OP hit me up if you need an partly qualified accountant.

Mrs OBumble

terraces wrote: »

... I'm asking for advices here to avoid additional solicitor fees - but that eventually may be the only option.

We cannot give legal advice here, as per the charter.

On that basis, I'm locking this thread - we cannot give what you want.