As a female posting in the A&A forum...?

strobe

[To the Mods: I know this isn't really related to atheism etc and is sort of feedbacky so if it's not suitable I guess I have no problem with it being moved or locked or whatever. (Prefer is it wasn't though)]

[To everyone else: Just in advance I'd like to request that people try to avoid this turning into some sort of a childish 'battle of the sexes' thing like threads along these lines are prone to do on occasion. Let's put on our big kid hats please.]


[Just one more thing: Could we avoid dragging the specific issues that belong in 'that other thread' in here and focus purely on the question below please. I'd like to discuss this (at least initially) in isolation from anything that has been said in that one single thread. And dragging anything from this thread into other threads either.]

[I think I am just growing fond of doing these little pre-script messages at this point: I'm going to put up an anonymous poll as well as some people may feel more comfortable giving their opinion in that way. But for the record I personally think anonymous internet polls are intrinsically flawed.

=====================
=====================

So I saw a comment on 'that other thread' by a female member of this forum questioning whether or not this forum is seen by females as a place they feel welcome to post. I'd never really questioned this before, I always thought we had a good number of regular female posters/lurkers for a pretty niche forum, so presumed it wasn't an issue. But then again how would I know? I'm not female. Maybe there are ten times as many posters who would like to post but feel the place is hostile towards them in some way.

So I just wanted to put the question out there. As a female poster/lurker on this forum do you view it as being an unwelcoming place, or the general posters here being unwelcoming people, to females? Just to quantify the question a bit. Do you feel that it is unwelcoming to you specifically because you are female and in a more prevalent manor than other forums/internet dealies tend to be?

Opinions from lmaopml (lmaopml's a girl right?) or AudreyHepburn or any other non-atheist/agnostic females that tend to pop in from time to time are very welcome as well of course, but could you just keep in mind it is about the forum not being a place you feel comfortably posting in specifically because you are female or because of the attitude you perceive the general posters here to hold towards females. NOT because of the attitude you feel posters here may hold towards you because you are religious.

(poll imminent)...

Turtwig

Strobe's female?:eek:
First bluewolf, now you!!:eek:

mark renton

I dont feel its an unwelcoming place for females, for christians yes, but females - no

strobe

Malty_T wrote: »

Strobe's female?:eek:
First bluewolf, now you!!:eek:

strobe wrote: »

[...]But then again how would I know? I'm not female. [...]

Dudes can be interested in chicks opinions too man.

sponsoredwalk

Sharrow wrote: »

I think your premise and poll are flawed.
I'd say it's not as straight forward as yes or no.

1: Why is the premise flawed?
2: Why is the poll flawed?
3: Why isn't it as straightforward as a yes or no?

Honestly, just curious, not trying to be combative :cool: As far as I'm
concerned I'm talking to genderless teddy bears, flags, rocketships &
cartoon characters on here. I'd be very surprised to hear a justifiable
reason why women wouldn't like to post here. The first recognition of
questions of gender on this part of the forum arose in that other thread
& (at least to me) that is in reference to a "community" of skeptics &
atheists that I have no sympathy for whatsoever.

[relevant-thread hijack]
Since we're actually addressing questions of gender,
if anyone knows anything about the fascinating stuff
mentioned in this thread please let me know :P
[/relevant-thread hijack]

Turtwig

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

rocketships

It's not a rocketship; it's a space shuttle!:mad:

MagicMarker

I don't think it's a hostile place towards anyone except stupid people.

sponsoredwalk

Malt you would've been a sky rocket in flight if I'd given in to my true feelings

strobe

Sharrow wrote: »

I think your premise and poll are flawed.
I'd say it's not as straight forward as yes or no.

How so?

Dades

I never thought there was ANY issue before that stupid thread came along.
But then again threads aren't usually about things that boys say to girls.

Also, I fear this poll is just spreading any issue into another thread. (I prefer containment).

Knasher

strobe wrote: »

How so?

I'd imagine it depends on the issue we are discussing. There are subjects where opinion will be split along gender lines and when those subjects come up the women will usually find themselves in a minority.

Eh no, definitely no problems here.
But what would I know with my "male brain"!

Seriously though, I don't think of gender as an issue at all in this forum.

strobe

Dades wrote: »

I never thought there was ANY issue before that stupid thread came along.
But then again threads aren't usually about things that boys say to girls.

Also, I fear this poll is just spreading any issue into another thread. (I prefer containment).

Well I went to great pains to request that it focuses on a very specific subject and doesn't turn into anything silly (with long diatribes or debates on feminism or patriarchy or anything like that) and that I would like to avoid, ehh 'cross contamination'. Could we maybe just leave it until tomorrow sometime, so at least the regular female posters can see it and give an opinion, if they have one? I was just genuinely surprised to hear it said (and who said it) and curious if it was more than a throwaway, off the cuff remark. Any of the aforementioned off-topic silliness and I would be happy to see it locked up.

(Or whatever, like I say, I know it's not what the forum is for so your call. I'm not too pushed.)

MagicMarker

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh no, definitely no problems here.
But what would I know with my "male brain"!

Seriously though, I don't think of gender as an issue at all in this forum.

What if I started calling you sugar tits? :pac:

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh no, definitely no problems here.
But what would I know with my "male brain"!

What do mean by "male brain"?

Malty_T

Malty_T wrote: »

What do mean by "male brain"?

Oh it's just a joke, I did that BBC online test about whether you have a "male" or "female" brain and got male.
It was very funny at a beers recently, I got quite a few "bluewolf's a girl?!" reactions... even now!

Turtwig

strobe wrote: »

I was just genuinely surprised to hear it said

(Or whatever, like I say, I know it's not what the forum is for so your call. I'm not too pushed.)

Out of curiosity I stopped reading that thread ages back, who/how many said that?

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Oh it's just a joke, I did that BBC online test about whether you have a "male" or "female" brain and got male.
It was very funny at a beers recently, I got quite a few "bluewolf's a girl?!" reactions... even now!

Well no offence or anything but I didn't know for ages and it's not like your name has a female ring to it or anything.:p
(Yeah, yeah I know your previous Nicks, say otherwise, but I didn't even know you could see those and at guess I'd say most people never bother to look at those.)

Malty_T

Malty_T wrote: »

Well no offence or anything but I didn't know for ages and it's not like your name has a female ring to it or anything.:p

Oh I know don't worry, I had fun playing with gender ambiguity on forums for a while. I was just surprised as I thought anyone who knew bluewolf at this stage knew bluewolf is a she. No big deal

(Yeah, yeah I know your previous Nicks, say otherwise, but I didn't even know you could see those and at guess I'd say most people never bother to look at those.)

Er... previous nicks?

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Er... previous nicks?

Huh, that's weird I could have sworn the last time I visited your profile (right after you listed your nicknames on a thread containing a poll about gender breakdown of A&A) your previous nicks were listed.
Lemme check Barrington's profile... yep it says he's paddyirishman forgot the end bit.

CiaranMT

What's this 'other thread'?

Turtwig

CiaranMT wrote: »

What's this 'other thread'?

It's the unmentionable thread we dare not speak its name.

Galvasean

To be honest I thought the whole 'the A&A forum is a boys club/hostile toward women' angle was a massive red herring.

*runs for life!!!!*

robindch

Sharrow wrote: »

I'd say it's not as straight forward as yes or no.

I don't immediately recall the topic of men v. women, or even the idea of such a confrontation, coming up before.

However, if you feel that the forum is biassed in some way -- and recall that A+A has a female readership that's higher than the boards.ie average -- then the forum mods would be interested (a) to hear about it and (b) to hear about how it can be dealt with.

CiaranMT

So, will I be getting a link to this thread?

Turtwig

CiaranMT wrote: »

So, will I be getting a link to this thread?

You see it's kinda hard to do that because it's like that Character in Harry Potter who's name we dare not mention.

All we have is this clue..after this you are on your own, good luck dear friend we wish you well.

Zombrex

No offense to strobe, I think the sentiment in correct, but I do wonder with these discussions (and the whole RW fiasco), is there a suitle underlying sexism at play in the idea that if women are some how getting nasty things said to them this is something that needs to be highlighted and address and discussed ad nausea lest they will just leave the community.

I'm not a woman, but if I was I would be a little offended by the notion that hostile comments would make me run for the hills, where as men regularly wade through such crap on a day to day basis when on the web.

I've had abusive things said to me by men and women on the Internet atheist and non-atheist. I didn't leave the community. I didn't hang up my keyboard and say well that was far to frightful for a delicate soul like myself.

Why do we assume, almost automatically, that a woman would?

strobe

Wicknight wrote: »

No offense to strobe, I think the sentiment in correct, but I do wonder with these discussions (and the whole RW fiasco), is there a suitle underlying sexism at play in the idea that if women are some how getting nasty things said to them this is something that needs to be highlighted and address and discussed ad nausea lest they will just leave the community.

I'm not a woman, but if I was I would be a little offended by the notion that hostile comments would make me run for the hills, where as men regularly wade through such crap on a day to day basis when on the web.

I've had abusive things said to me by men and women on the Internet atheist and non-atheist. I didn't leave the community. I didn't hang up my keyboard and say well that was far to frightful for a delicate soul like myself.

Why do we assume, almost automatically, that a woman would?

I agree with every single thing you said above Wick. Apart from the last sentence, I don't assume that, automatically or not.

But it was suggested otherwise. So I just figured I'd ask.

Gambler

You know, I find you all really interesting and I hope you don't take this the wrong way but would you like to join me in my room for coffee??

**Runs for the hills before anyone hits me with Das Ban Stick!**

Turtwig

Gambler wrote: »

You know, I find you all really interesting and I hope you don't take this the wrong way but would you like to join me in my room for coffee??

**Runs for the hills before anyone hits me with Das Ban Stick!**

Boy that was smart telling them where you're going to hide...
Everyone grab your sticks we're headed to the hills.

CiaranMT

Gambler wrote: »

You know, I find you all really interesting and I hope you don't take this the wrong way but would you like to join me in my room for coffee??

**Runs for the hills before anyone hits me with Das Ban Stick!**

Oh....

That f*ckin' thread.

Galvasean

An offer like that round these parts is a good way to have a bunch of interesting men come over for coffee.

Calibos

Gambler wrote: »

You know, I find you all really interesting and I hope you don't take this the wrong way but would you like to join me in my room for coffee??

**Runs for the hills before anyone hits me with Das Ban Stick!**

Yeah, talk about taking things the wrong way. I found some of Bluewolfs input in this thread very thought provoking and told her so. I then asked her if she'd perhaps like a ****. She told me it wasn't a good idea to say things like that. All I can say is that she's a head case losin' the head like that. Can't a guy just meet a gal in a thread and ask for a **** anymore. All she had to do was say no. She's little to be complaining about when there is FGM going on elsewhere in the world.

I cannot understand how other blokes are on the wrong side of this one. Can't say I've noticed that kind of attitude or comments that I would worry made females uncomfortable on A&A before that thread but after it??. Well some posts by some A&A regulars raised my eyebrows.

goingpostal

I have never seen any anti-female-atheist sentiments expressed in this forum. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, though There was a pretty angry debate about burka's here last summer, some posters were arguing for a woman's right to be subjugated by their male family members in the name of religion. I gave those fools HELL, I can tell you.

wonderfulname

I'm more of a lurker, don't post here that often, but generally I don't find the place remotely hostile towards any persons, only concepts rightly deemed to be quite stupid, it's a surprisingly light hearted forum actually.

Bluewolf, I'm after taking that test you mentioned out of curiosity, I'm exactly in the middle, that has left me very confused!

amacachi

Love those tests, I was a systemizer instead of an empathiser but in the other bit for empathy I got a very high score. Also seems I like manly women.

Ickle Magoo

strobe wrote: »

How so?

Well, the most obvious would be that there is a world of difference between being openly hostile as per the title of your poll and not being particularly welcoming which is only mentioned later in your post. There are lots of ways of excluding posters and puting them off posting without directly attacking them.

The second is it's a blind poll and the cynic in me says that's easily rigged.

For the record, I didn't vote because while I don't think it's deliberately hostile to women I think it can, when certain topics come up including those on gender lines, be fairly unwelcoming and unwilling to consider any other perspective bar that which the demographics deem the popular stance.

MagicMarker wrote: »

I don't think it's a hostile place towards anyone except stupid people.

Stupid people?! Anyone who doesn't agree with the majority and gets the pack treatment is a stupid person. Ri-ight. That must be some of that world class welcome I keep hearing about?

virmilitaris

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, the most obvious would be that there is a world of difference between being openly hostile as per the title of your poll and not being particularly welcoming which is only mentioned later in your post. There are lots of ways of excluding posters and puting them off posting without directly attacking them.

Indeed there are lots of ways of putting people off posting without attacking them but could you please expand on the point about not being particularly welcoming ?

Why should we be particularly welcoming to any group except for atheists, agnostics, rationalists or skeptics however you define it these days ? Please don't take that the wrong way, I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't try to gain a more diverse membership including women and minorities. What I'm asking is why should we concentrate on any group in particular ?

This is a part of a larger issue which I seem to be completely out on my own on whenever it comes up. I don't think we should ever highlight such differences because I think such actions do more damage than good to society.

For example in the US you often see grants for minorities. There shouldn't be grants for blacks, women, whites, men, latinos, asians, etc. There should be grants for the most deserving full stop.

We should be trying to gain more people, and more specifically more atheistic-skeptical people.

What is not welcoming to women that is welcoming to men here ?

Ickle Magoo

So which is it? On one hand you are asking questions while at the same time dismissing the validity or use of any possible answer.

You don't have to be bothered about being welcoming and you don't have to be bothered about having more women in the movement, neither does anyone else - I don't really care either way; my life goes on with or without this forum or any organised movement wishing my patronage. I'm just answering the poll which came about due to a common theme discussed elsewhere on the interweb that the movement was looking to redress a gender imbalance by looking at why the disparity existed. If you don't think a disparity exists and if it does it isn't worth looking at for any one group over any other, then that's entirely your prerogative.

I stated on "t'other thread" that I was surprised at the response because of how I judged those on this forum would react - so that's hardly me used to hostile behaviour but I do think the natural demographics of boards and this forum makes any discussion on gender lines that isn't regurgitating the populist view difficult; not least because female posters are greatly outnumbered. Whether that means fielding a host of other posters Vs your one view or the habitual thankers, it feels like a constant battle to get any alternative point across and that either not bothering or just nodding and smiling is infinitely easier - neither of which are going to encourage any but the most determined to get involved. I also don't think that some of the "humour" or ridiculing tactics used are always very appropriate or welcoming either - unless the poster in question particularly likes those kind of frat boy funnies.

virmilitaris

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

So which is it? On one hand you are asking questions while at the same time dismissing the validity or use of any possible answer.

I gave my current views and asked you for your reasons. The funny thing about me and presumably most people here is that when confronted with new information we can change our views. I would have thought that was one of the biggest differences between us and the religious, no ?

... the poll which came about due to a common theme discussed elsewhere on the interweb that the movement was looking to redress a gender imbalance by looking at why the disparity existed. If you don't think a disparity exists and if it does it isn't worth looking at for any one group over any other, then that's entirely your prerogative.

Is it possible to leave that attitude in the other thread please ?

I didn't say there wasn't a disparity and it's quite obvious there are more men than women. I didn't say it wasn't worth looking at for one group over another, I asked why should we focus on one group over another.

I stated on "t'other thread" that I was surprised at the response because of how I judged those on this forum would react

Well maybe you should reexamine your own opinion on the subject then since so many people you previously thought of differently seem to be so wrong now.

not least because female posters are greatly outnumbered.

And there you are again dividing us into groups. There are female members on this forum and you know what ? I couldn't care less if they are female or male. I will treat everyone the same just as I do irl and just as I will continue to do and just as I expect from others.

There are no female or male positions, there are no female or male viewpoints. There are peoples viewpoints full stop.

Whether that means fielding a host of other posters Vs your one view or the habitual thankers, it feels like a constant battle to get any alternative point across and that either not bothering or just nodding and smiling is infinitely easier

And I or other posters don't have that problem ?

You seem so wrapped up in being 'female', like there are some kind of battle lines drawn between the genders.

All the men here are not in one group and all the women are not in the other. There are two sides to any arguments populated by both sexes but you keep trying to say that one side is the 'female' side.

- neither of which are going to encourage any but the most determined to get involved. I also don't think that some of the "humour" or ridiculing tactics used are always very appropriate or welcoming either - unless the poster in question particularly likes those kind of frat boy funnies.

Appropriate for whom ? I don't like people making any kind of racist joke, even quite tame ones, but I can stand back and distance myself from my feelings on the subject.

No one is comfortable with everything that everyone else is comfortable with.

Ickle Magoo

So just dismiss the opinion I was asked to give and highlight exactly what I mean in the process. Good job.

MagicMarker

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Stupid people?! Anyone who doesn't agree with the majority and gets the pack treatment is a stupid person. Ri-ight. That must be some of that world class welcome I keep hearing about?

No, people can have an apposing view, just don't be stupid about it. Like those random posters that pop in from time to time and say they believe aliens built the pyramids etc.

People who make absurd statements and can't in any shape or form back them up or argue with any logical consistency but repeatedly post insisting they're right and that anyone who disagrees is just being mean.
Any intelligent discussions have always been welcome here I think from any opposing views

Ickle Magoo

bluewolf wrote: »

People who make absurd statements and can't in any shape or form back them up or argue with any logical consistency but repeatedly post insisting they're right and that anyone who disagrees is just being mean.

...or anyone who naively took this invitation for their views as genuine and not an opportunity for a one-sided ambush and further exercise in confirmation bias.

Beruthiel

Speaking for myself, I've had no problem in this forum.
It has to be said though, usually any sort of discussion regarding gender has been about how a certain religion can affect women.
Thus, on the whole, the crap you can sometimes see in other forums on this site, is not as noticeable here.

In saying that though, other than the first few pages of that thread, I have not had time to read the rest.
If I get the time, I'll read through it properly.

virmilitaris

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

...or anyone who naively took this invitation for their views as genuine and not an opportunity for a one-sided ambush and further exercise in confirmation bias.

Have you given a view ? In your reply to me you just complained about the poll (fair point but irrelevant), hinted displeasure at the way most people disagreed with you on the other thread and talked about how getting your point across is like a constant battle, I assume you are referring to the 'other' thread by saying this. None of which are relevant or based on gender issues.

The only points you made which were relevant were about jokes and ridiculing which again, affect all posters here not just female.

You seem to be upset simply because most people did not agree with you on the other thread and seem determined to make a sexism issue out of nothing.

Ickle Magoo

virmilitaris wrote: »

Have you given a view ?

Is this supposed to prove how welcoming the forum is? Luring posters in with assurances their points are to be listened to and then ambush those you know you aren't going to agree with and dismiss any opinions they give?

I'm not upset - I don't particularly care how the forum operates, or who posts what - it's up to the wider community to decide what kind of forum they want to have. I'd be amazed if my opinion isn't instantly dismissed before everything going back to business as usual; it won't stop me posting here and it won't stop me holding that view. The point was raised as to why the wider atheist/skeptic demographic is the way it is - and why only a handful of female posters regularly post in this forum - I've answered based on my honest opinion on the matter...

MagicMarker

Is the ratio of male/female posters on this forum radically different to the ratio on boards in general?

As far as I understand it, there are far more male posters than female in general.

Ickle Magoo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

...or anyone who naively took this invitation for their views as genuine and not an opportunity for a one-sided ambush and further exercise in confirmation bias.

That might include me then?
I haven't read any more of "that" thread

virmilitaris

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Is this supposed to prove how welcoming the forum is? Luring posters in with assurances their points are to be listened to and then ambush those you know you aren't going to agree with and dismiss any opinions they give?

How has anyone done that? You haven't given a view on getting more female members. You just complained about things whch affect all posters regardless of their gender. Nothing specific to one gender or the other.

You are throwing accusations around that are so vague as to be meaningless.

Apparently you think this forum isn't welcoming to women and when asked to explain how you made vague comments about ridiculing and jokes and referred to the other thread.

Is your only problem in this forum what happened with the other thread?

Dades

In any ambiguous debate that involves gender, there's a certain inevitability that men will support the male perspective, and women will support the female one. Of course this is not always true, but it does happen simply because as either a man or a woman you see much clearer one side of the fence.

So in a forum that is mostly males there is likely to be bigger "movement" towards one side than the other. This doesn't constitute a "ganging up" or "bullying", just a weight of numbers.

It's not too different to religious posters who claim they've being oppressed because of the volume of posts disagreeing with their claims - when they can hardly expect their views to hold much weight in an A&A forum. (Not equating for a minute female views = religious views!)

The real question is - how people act towards the minority opinion once they realise they have the weight of numbers behind them.