Slow play: A ok?

Benicetomonty

More than anything, I'm requesting clarity here folks. I don't think I'm a novice when it comes to the rules but I admit I don't know everything.

I had an altercation with an elder statesman of my home club today following a round. This came about as a result of my apparent "horrendous breach of etiquette" in requesting that this guy and his fourball might possibly see their way to moving a little faster so as to not continue holding us (and every group behind us) up. Naturally, my wording was less sarcastic than this at the time and, slight edge of impatience notwithstanding, I believe I phrased my request as politely and briefly as one could expect. This was met with the incredulity all too common with those guilty of slow play and a panic-stricken surveillance of the nearby holes to ascertain the location of the group ahead. A feeble (and inaccurate) effort at exoneration ("but the lads've just teed off") led me to explain, more firmly, that they were not being held up with their shots whereas we were and that they had clearly lost a hole to the aforementioned group. The retort to this was that I should "write a letter to the committee", which might as well have been to "F*** off".

They probably did try to speed up after; regardless we continued to be held up on every shot for the remainder of the round.

Now, that kind of ignorance I can accept- I actually played ok regardless and was willing to forget the incident. This guy, however, was not. Upon returning to the clubhouse he drove up in his buggy and told me that for someone to "accost" (actual word used) a fellow member in such a way was completely out of order and instructed me to consult the rules of golf whereby I would learn that it is up to the committee to deal with incidents of slow play. Now, having taken his advice, I still can't find that particular rule and instead read the section on the breach of etiquette that is slow play, which instructs golfers that upon losing a hole, it is expected that that group/player will either a) speed up or b) call the group through. But back to the exchange, which ended with me apologising for any rule I was unaware or had misunderstand and turning my back on him with a parting shot, that they still should have let us through, which was not well received.

So my question is was it unreasonable for me to have requested this guy get a move on? And if it was, exactly what is a committee going to do to rectify such a situation when they are not and have never employed a course ranger? I myself have been told when I'm holding play up and if it's obvious that I am, I'll make it my business to apologise and speed up.
Any other response is, imoho, of exceptionally poor etiquette and to question my right to make the request in the first place borders on Facist. Am I wrong?

Mr. Larson

:eek:

You monster! How could you!

Sersiously tho dude, I don't think you were out of order and it sounds like you weren't a dick about it either. At least you had the balls to say it to their faces. Many would just sit and fume behind them and try to drop dangerous hints, so to speak. I would imagine you would have the support of the committee... I mean what could be wrong with communicating something verbally and in a civil manner to a fellow member? Especially given you're pulling them up on breach of something that is written in every diary, every scorecard and ever code of conduct at most clubs?

doc_17

I nearly prefer to golf on my own theses days given how slow things seem to be getting.

fai play to you.

Kevinmarkham

I have a few questions:
How old are you?
How were you/your partners dressed?
How good is your golf?
How long have you been a member at the club?

I ask because an old fella is likely to look at the 'cut of your jib' and decide whether he can dance rings around you, pull the wool over your eyes and bamboozle you into apologising for something that, in fact, he should be apologising for.

If he has held you up, etiquette says that he lets you play through. I've always found asking someone to 'speed up' doesn't work (or if it does it lasts for a hole or two), because they say that they will, and then they don't. If you ask to play through and say you're in a rush, it's very difficult for him to say no.

Congratulations on actually confronting the problem - most of us just stand on the tee/fairway and mutter darkly. There are too many golfers out there who don't follow etiquette and don't like letting players through. Is it pride? Is it a sense of 'I'm playing my game and I'll play it at whatever pace I please'?

Never mind him not inviting you to play through, the coming up to you after the round to give you grief is very poor. He knows you're unlikely to go to the Committee because no-one wants that reputation, but his knowledge of the rules is clearly arse-about-face. He probably plays three times a week and has never let a soul through in his life. And there's almost nothing you can do about it, except avoid him on the timesheet.

As long as you weren't over the top in making your point, you were most certainly not in the wrong. Hope you can avoid him from now on.

harpsman

depends how slow group were.had they ost more than a hole on group in front?

Benicetomonty

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

I have a few questions:
How old are you?
How were you/your partners dressed?
How good is your golf?
How long have you been a member at the club?

I ask because an old fella is likely to look at the 'cut of your jib' and decide whether he can dance rings around you, pull the wool over your eyes and bamboozle you into apologising for something that, in fact, he should be apologising for.

If he has held you up, etiquette says that he lets you play through. I've always found asking someone to 'speed up' doesn't work (or if it does it lasts for a hole or two), because they say that they will, and then they don't. If you ask to play through and say you're in a rush, it's very difficult for him to say no.

Congratulations on actually confronting the problem - most of us just stand on the tee/fairway and mutter darkly. There are too many golfers out there who don't follow etiquette and don't like letting players through. Is it pride? Is it a sense of 'I'm playing my game and I'll play it at whatever pace I please'?

Never mind him not inviting you to play through, the coming up to you after the round to give you grief is very poor. He knows you're unlikely to go to the Committee because no-one wants that reputation, but his knowledge of the rules is clearly arse-about-face. He probably plays three times a week and has never let a soul through in his life. And there's almost nothing you can do about it, except avoid him on the timesheet.

As long as you weren't over the top in making your point, you were most certainly not in the wrong. Hope you can avoid him from now on.

27
Impeccably No collarless shirts or Jeans, if that's what you mean.
2 handicap. Sometimes.
There as a full member since 23, as a Junior since 11.

I've never had a problem mentioning it when somebody within my periscope is clearly holding play up- there are a few holes on my course that tend to cause problems with regards to crossing over etc..but this was well after those holes. Even aside from that, somebody, as we all ultimately know, is to blame for slow play.

I make a point of mentioning it to my own groups if I felt we've lost ground. Directly in behind the group in front, not directly in front of the group behind and all that.

The slow play section (pg 26) in the rules of golf says that the loss of 1 hole is enough to consider calling a group through. These guys had gone 3 holes and failed to make up that hole and holding us up with every shot.

Kevinmarkham

Benicetomonty wrote: »

27
Impeccably No collarless shirts or Jeans, if that's what you mean.
2 handicap. Sometimes.
There as a full member since 23, as a Junior since 11.

I've never had a problem mentioning it when somebody within my periscope is clearly holding play up- there are a few holes on my course that tend to cause problems with regards to crossing over etc..but this was well after those holes. Even aside from that, somebody, as we all ultimately know, is to blame for slow play.

I make a point of mentioning it to my own groups if I felt we've lost ground. Directly in behind the group in front, not directly in front of the group behind and all that.

The slow play section (pg 26) in the rules of golf says that the loss of 1 hole is enough to consider calling a group through. These guys had gone 3 holes and failed to make up that hole and holding us up with every shot.

Then it's just rudeness/pride and a lack of ability to admit that he/they are a problem.

copperhead

had the opposite problem yesterday
the course was practically empty
me and a mate tee,d off on the first and his went into the trees
so we walked down i hit my ball and then proceeded to help him look for his ball,
there were two elder gent on the tee waiting after about two mins of looking one the fella's on the tee shouts '' come on ta f##k '' , bear in mind we dont know them from adam. Hows that for etiquette

twounderpar

Fair play to you for letting them know that they were slow. Most of us complain about it but very few of us will ever do anything about it.

omerin

Some A hole complained to our group recently. The bo**ix didn't see or couldn't be bothered looking ahead to the group before us who were as slow as a wet week. To be fair to him he did apologise later but nonetheless he is a A hole. Complain all you want but it isn't nescessarily the group in front of you.

Halfprice

Your dead right to have words and i have to say i wouldnt of been as nice if that was the response i got from him.. It happens way to often as others have said. I know what i would of said if he had of called back over to me after the round. Hate slow play and would mention it to my group if i thought we were after slowing up also

Opics

copperhead wrote: »

had the opposite problem yesterday
the course was practically empty
me and a mate tee,d off on the first and his went into the trees
so we walked down i hit my ball and then proceeded to help him look for his ball,
there were two elder gent on the tee waiting after about two mins of looking one the fella's on the tee shouts '' come on ta f##k '' , bear in mind we dont know them from adam. Hows that for etiquette

You should have waived them through. If a group is waiting to hit while you look for a ball you should always leave them through.

staker

I was part of a 3-ball once where we were being held up needlessly,(course free up ahead),we asked to play thru,they refused. Playing partner phones clubhouse,ranger comes out to let us thru. They were raging.
Problem solved.

Jul3s

The problem here is that you're looking at slow play the wrong way, imho you were out of order requesting them to speed up, everyone is entilted to play at their own pace, but that doesn't mean you are entilted to hold up other people.
You should have asked to be let through, not requested them to change their style of play.

Benicetomonty

Jul3s wrote: »

The problem here is that you're looking at slow play the wrong way, imho you were out of order requesting them to speed up, everyone is entilted to play at their own pace, but that doesn't mean you are entilted to hold up other people.
You should have asked to be let through, not requested them to change their style of play.

Perhaps but I think I can safely say that wouldn't have been humoured any better than what I did say! Letting groups through almost never happens by choice; in fact if you're not dealing with a lost ball from the group ahead, you can pretty much forget it (at least from this particular fourball).

Tbh, I would've felt like asking to play tends to be more confrontational than merely suggesting a group regain their position on the course...maybe I'll try it out next time though and see how it goes

cackhanded

Jul3s wrote: »

The problem here is that you're looking at slow play the wrong way, imho you were out of order requesting them to speed up, everyone is entilted to play at their own pace, but that doesn't mean you are entilted to hold up other people.
You should have asked to be let through, not requested them to change their style of play.

No they are not. Pace of play is usually set by the individual clubs but generally follows the guidelines set down by the R&A. This is from their website:

"For ‘normal’ golf, it is still important for administrators to set targets for round times. As stated above, there is not a ‘one size fits all’ model for round times, but it is important that the targets are achievable without being too soft.
Two-ball rounds should take no more than 3 hours 10 minutes; three-balls should take no more than 3 hours 30 minutes, and four-balls no more than 3 hours 50 minutes.
If slow play has become an issue at your club, course or resort then strong and decisive action should be taken to resolve the problem. And as a general rule, try to keep up with the group in front!"

The arguments start when the clubs don't police the rules properly (or at all, as appears to be the case in the OP's club). Sending a ranger out to speed up the slowplay merchants or warning repeat offenders would soon sort it out. It shouldn't be up to individual golfers to get them to speed up or let those behind play through.

k.p.h

Professional golfers take up to 5 hours to play a round..?

Hunter21

k.p.h wrote: »

Professional golfers take up to 5 hours to play a round..?

Every single shot they take could cost them their livelihood aka sponsors and every shot costs them a nice some of money so they are entitled to take a long time. Bear in mind they play harder courses and more often then not a nice bit longer then the average course an amateur plays on

dines08

Was in Shannon last Wednesday for a team of four. Playing the 5th or 6th and a two ball came from nowhere to be behind us. Don't know what they were doing out there when it was a 4 ball competition. One of our group lost a ball so we waved them through. They then proceeded to hold us up for 4-5 holes every shot. How they caught up to us in the first place I'll never know

SM746

k.p.h wrote: »

Professional golfers take up to 5 hours to play a round..?

Maybe in a 4 ball in the first 2rounds of a major. If they were on their own they would play it in 2hours 30/45 minutes. I think the record at a pro tournament is 2hrs 20 or somewhere around that. And copperhead, who had the lad shouting at him from the tee, I find that the most frustrating thing on a course when you have people searching for balls in front and not immediately waving through. You do not spend the 5mins searching for your ball and them make the wave, its done right away or it should be. Although I would not take the steps of shouting 'hurry to f*** up', I would not be one bit happy. Thats the biggest problem at my club and it annoys the hell out of me.

Tones69

I agree people can play at whatever speed they feel comfy at BUT they should have definitely invited you to play through, its just manners really and common courtesy. I dont understand why they didnt, it would drive me mad if i had guys waiting behind me on every hole like that if i was playing pretty slow, let them through ffs

Jul3s

cackhanded wrote: »

No they are not. Pace of play is usually set by the individual clubs but generally follows the guidelines set down by the R&A. This is from their website:

"For ‘normal’ golf, it is still important for administrators to set targets for round times. As stated above, there is not a ‘one size fits all’ model for round times, but it is important that the targets are achievable without being too soft.
Two-ball rounds should take no more than 3 hours 10 minutes; three-balls should take no more than 3 hours 30 minutes, and four-balls no more than 3 hours 50 minutes.
If slow play has become an issue at your club, course or resort then strong and decisive action should be taken to resolve the problem. And as a general rule, try to keep up with the group in front!"

The arguments start when the clubs don't police the rules properly (or at all, as appears to be the case in the OP's club). Sending a ranger out to speed up the slowplay merchants or warning repeat offenders would soon sort it out. It shouldn't be up to individual golfers to get them to speed up or let those behind play through.

Let me rephrase that, people are entilted to play are their own pace within reason.
The cause of slow play imo is lack of common sense and etiquette, and in the OP's situation he should have been called through long before he had to say something, but unfortunatly that's indicative of the game today, etiquette has gone out of the window, you're place on the course is behind the group in front not in front of the group behind, also the vast majority of people looking for balls don't realise that they should call the group behind through as soon as it becomes apparent that they will not find the ball immediately, not look for 1-2 or 5mins and then call them through.
However I can understand how the group in front may take offence to been told to hurry up as opposed to been asked to let the group behind play through.

MrTrebus

SM746 wrote: »

And copperhead, who had the lad shouting at him from the tee, I find that the most frustrating thing on a course when you have people searching for balls in front and not immediately waving through. You do not spend the 5mins searching for your ball and them make the wave, its done right away or it should be. Although I would not take the steps of shouting 'hurry to f*** up', I would not be one bit happy. Thats the biggest problem at my club and it annoys the hell out of me.

erm,

i think your wrong there and if everyone followed your advice about letting people play through while you spent the "5 mins" your allowed under the rules of golf, then there would be chaos on the course.
People would be playing everywhere !!!!
your allowed 5 mins cause its not too long, calling groups through while looking would not work if you had, say, a society playing that day.
5 mins is not that long

in regards to slow play, my society played a certain course not too far from Dublin recently where over the course of 18 holes we had the ranger pushing us on, on at least 6 holes !
now that might sound bad for us, but as I finally cracked and pointed out to the ranger, we were right behind the group in front !!!!

he then told us , after 12 holes and watching us on at least 3 teeboxes , that we were playing off the wrong tees !
he told the rest of our society over the course of 5 holes the same thing, no hole being earlier than the 8th :eek::eek:

told us the group ahead were complaing that my group werent "pushing them on" and told our group that the one behind us had been complaing about us !!!

needless to say, an all out war ensued in the clubhouse afterwards with me lodging a formal complaint about the ranger (and that was BEFORE i got into a shouting match with him in the bar !!! )

slow play is NOT good and players should be aware if they are delaying the group behind them.

SM746

MrTrebus wrote: »

erm,

i think your wrong there and if everyone followed your advice about letting people play through while you spent the "5 mins" your allowed under the rules of golf, then there would be chaos on the course.
People would be playing everywhere !!!!
your allowed 5 mins cause its not too long, calling groups through while looking would not work if you had, say, a society playing that day.
5 mins is not that long

in regards to slow play, my society played a certain course not too far from Dublin recently where over the course of 18 holes we had the ranger pushing us on, on at least 6 holes !
now that might sound bad for us, but as I finally cracked and pointed out to the ranger, we were right behind the group in front !!!!

he then told us , after 12 holes and watching us on at least 3 teeboxes , that we were playing off the wrong tees !
he told the rest of our society over the course of 5 holes the same thing, no hole being earlier than the 8th :eek::eek:

told us the group ahead were complaing that my group werent "pushing them on" and told our group that the one behind us had been complaing about us !!!

needless to say, an all out war ensued in the clubhouse afterwards with me lodging a formal complaint about the ranger (and that was BEFORE i got into a shouting match with him in the bar !!! )

slow play is NOT good and players should be aware if they are delaying the group behind them.

Perhaps your points are valid but personally I do not agree. And the last line kinda contradicts what you said. If a group are going to spend 5mins looking for their ball, is that not delaying the group behind them? And calling groups through does not promote chaos. Very simply, they wave us through and continue looking for their ball, we hit and we can fore it if something goes wrong. It does not take us 5mins or much more to tee of 4 balls and walk up to our 2nd shot no matter how bad we are playing. Nothing stops and if they find it in the meantime fair enough we would let them play on and we would wait in the middle of the fairway to their one shot ahead. Were not going to be ***holes about it but nothing more frustrating than having one/two groups waiting on a tee box whilst someone searches for a ball. Perhaps the system you have outlined works well at your club, it most certainly does not at any club I have played at. And we ALWAYS wave through the minute we start a search for a ball and it has never caused a backlog.

Opics

SM746 wrote: »

Maybe in a 4 ball in the first 2rounds of a major.

I've never seen a 4 ball in the first 2 rounds of a major

SM746

Opics wrote: »

I've never seen a 4 ball in the first 2 rounds of a major

Haha very true! Like I always say, just ignore me

golfwallah

Always controversial (etiquette rather than rules) ... no easy solutions ..... hence people taking matters into their own hands ..... but the following link to R&A site has good video from Padraig Harrington on pace of play: http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Etiquette/Keeping-Pace.aspx

Russman

Hunter21 wrote: »

.....so they are entitled to take a long time....

Have to respectfully disagree with this, its exactly the argument that JB Holmes makes when pushed about his pace of play. And IMO its that attitude thats ruining many pro tournaments and as a result has come into amateur golf also. Just look a the pace of play in any of the Irish championships, its embarassing at times the way some of the guys carry on.

More often than not players will play better if they think a little less (within reason obviously )

soundsham

I think the old phrase of "your position on the course is to be directly behind the group in front of you & not directly in front of the group behind you says it all "
if you cant keep up for whatever reason,let the next group through

what bugs me is when there is a slow group out there and those behind them say nothing to them.......everyone else suffers

played last weekend in an open day early about 6 groups ahead of us,perfect conditions no breeze
our 3 ball played 18 in 3hrs 45 mins
I think we only waited on 2 par 3's for maybe a minute while group ahead putted out
so all was fine moving along ok, not too hectic a pace
the guys behind us were teeing off 17 as we walked onto 18 green so they and everyone else were at least 25 mins longer out there
while we were in the bar after some guys were in there having coffee as they were told the 1st tee was running 35 mins out this was 12 o' clock
as I was leaving i met a guy playing the 5th hole that I knew he told me they were 1hr 40 mins to there.....they were looking at a 5hr round

Can you imagine how many guys came off that course saying never again would they play the place
all over a few selfish groups out there

People have to speak up or we all get the brunt of the selfish golfers

harpsman

He makes an important distinction that you should call a group through once it becomes obvious your ball will not be easily found.Most of the time you re looking for a ball its not "lost" and you find it in a few seconds.If you started calling people through every time this happened there would be chaos, as somebody said.

SM746

harpsman wrote: »

He makes an important distinction that you should call a group through once it becomes obvious your ball will not be easily found.Most of the time you re looking for a ball its not "lost" and you find it in a few seconds.If you started calling people through every time this happened there would be chaos, as somebody said.

I dont care about those times. I wouldnt even call that a lost ball imo if you know where it is and find it within 'a few seconds'. 'A few seconds' is the important phrase you use. Its when they call their 1/2/3 playing partners over to help with the search and lo and behold the delays start. What is an acceptable amount of time? In my own mind and if I lose a ball I call straight through straight away. My bad shots should not slow up a group behind me. If your playing a nice round and everything is going grand, the etiquette should be there to allow you play that round to the guidelines set down by the rules committee. My club has a 'strict rule' that all players are called through before the search begins. Unfortunately its a rule that is only adhered to by a minority.

AGC

Jul3s wrote: »

The problem here is that you're looking at slow play the wrong way, imho you were out of order requesting them to speed up, everyone is entilted to play at their own pace, but that doesn't mean you are entilted to hold up other people.
You should have asked to be let through, not requested them to change their style of play.

You are not entitled to play at your own pace!! Technically by the rules of golf you have to play within a certain time.

k.p.h

AGC wrote: »

You are not entitled to play at your own pace!! Technically by the rules of golf you have to play within a certain time.

Don't think it's a rule TBH. Only some guidelines set down by the R&A. So technically you can play at whatever pace you like

But the important bit from the guidelines is ..

If you lose a clear hole and are delaying the group behind, or if there is no group in front of you and you are delaying the group behind, invite the group behind to play through.

Simple enough. Their should be a big sign at ever first tee box with this wrote on it in my opinion

AGC

Undue delay is a breach of the rules and it is a penalty. Very difficult to implement in club golf though.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules%20and%20Amateur%20Status/Rules%20of%20Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=6&subRuleNum=7

Jul3s

AGC wrote: »

You are not entitled to play at your own pace!! Technically by the rules of golf you have to play within a certain time.

Where does it say playing at you own pace equals slow play.

AGC

Jul3s wrote: »

Where does it say playing at you own pace equals slow play.

If you were to go by the trend of the thread it leads to slow play!

Opics

Jul3s wrote: »

Where does it say playing at you own pace equals slow play.

If your 'own pace' is slow then it is slow play

Golf isn't meant to be a Sunday stroll....it's a sport

k.p.h

That rule only gives the committee the ability to make up a slow play rule if they want so dose not mean their is a rule in place .. e.g must have played 6 holes in 1:10 or something similar ..

Still relevant alright but as you said almost impossible to implement for amateur golf or casual rounds.

Just so you know I have no particular problem with slow play once the round is coming in under 4hrs or maybe a little bit more of its a four ball. And TBH have not really encountered rounds taking any more than that as it's usually less than 3:45 for a 3 ball at my home course. Which is grand enough. I presume up the country with the higher population and that courses are a lot busier and you get people taking the piss etc ..

k.p.h

Opics wrote: »

Golf isn't meant to be a Sunday stroll....it's a sport

People that are out for the stroll are generally quicker than the aspiring McIlroy's. You know 2 min looking at the putt lining up the ball and then blasting it 6ft past another min looking at the putt and lining it up and then hanging it and then marking the ball and lining it up from 6 inches .. etc .. etc ..

Webbs

k.p.h wrote: »

People that are out for the stroll are generally quicker than the aspiring McIlroy's. You know 2 min looking at the putt lining up the ball and then blasting it 6ft past another min looking at the putt and lining it up and then hanging it and then marking the ball and lining it up from 6 inches .. etc .. etc ..

Couldnt agree more, the fact that there is so much more golf on TV has a lot to answer for regarding slow play.
Have lost count of the number of times you see the 6-12 inch putt marked and then the player move away while others putt out. Or someone look at every short chip from every conceivable angle then thin it through the green!

Opics

k.p.h wrote: »

People that are out for the stroll are generally quicker than the aspiring McIlroy's. You know 2 min looking at the putt lining up the ball and then blasting it 6ft past another min looking at the putt and lining it up and then hanging it and then marking the ball and lining it up from 6 inches .. etc .. etc ..

It's funny that you picked out McIlroy there as he is probably the quickest pro golfer there is. He doesn't even take a practise stroke while putting. I think people aspiring to play like Rory would speed up the game

D3PO

Webbs wrote: »

Have lost count of the number of times you see the 6-12 inch putt marked and then the player move away while others putt out. !

everybody is perfectly within their rights to do that. Even if the likelyhood is that you might miss maybe one in 300 of them why should you impact your score to appease somebody else who wants to move faster.