Dole refused for incorrect reason, advice?

bucketybuck

Just wondering about peoples opinions on this...

Some background. I am from Northern Ireland originally. I was working in Belfast a year ago this month when I was approached and offered a job in Dublin. I decided to take the job, and rather than commute decided to move to Dublin. I moved house, done everything required, PPS number, tax registered etc etc.

Fast forward to May, and unfortunately the company I moved to went into liquidation. I start job hunting, and make an application for jobseekers allowance. I fill out and return all forms, and get called for an interview in the local Social welfare office, bringing bank statements etc etc. Interview goes straightforward, and the lady tells me herself she sees no problems.

Two weeks later, I get a letter in the post saying my application for jobseekers has been rejected, with the stated reason "I do not fulfill the Habitual residency condition (HRC)", and "My center of interest is not in the state". This is all very surprising to me, as I have the departments booklet on HRC, and it states, "You are likely to meet the HRC if you...have spent all of your life in the common travel area." (The common travel area, in the departments own words is "Ireland, Great Britain, the channel islands and the isle of man").

I cannot understand the logic here? How can they reject me for not meeting the HRC, when it is patently clear that having been born and raised in Northern Ireland, I have lived in the common travel area all my life, and so meet the HRC by bloody default!!!

Does anybody have an opinion on this? My flatmate thinks they just reject every claim as a matter of procedure, but how can any serious government department reject a claim using a reason that is so demonstrably incorrect?

Secondly, does anybody know what will happen next? I have sent an appeal form to the appeals office, but will I just get a letter saying my appeal has been considered and rejected, or will I actually get to speak to somebody?

eastbono

You will get a letter stating they have received your appeal. Your appeal will take a couple of months!!!

In your post you say that you were working in Northern Ireland, you can transfer your contributions from NI to the Republic as you have paid contributions in the Republic and you may qualify for Jobseekers Benefit which does not need HRC approval.

If you do qualify for JSB once it is in payment for a month you can transfer this payment to any EU country for 78 days t & c's apply. If you were thinking of heading back up North to look for work this would be very beneficial

mrsbyrne

As always, eastbono is right, here from welfares own website,
h) Contributions paid while working in another EU/EEA State
Aggregation of Social Insurance Records
Article 6 of EU/EEA Regulation 883/2004 provides for periods of social insurance (PRSI) in one Member State to be credited to a worker's social insurance record in another Member State to facilitate qualification for JB.
The person must have been covered by a period of social insurance in the other country.
The person must have paid at least 1 reckonable contribution since the date when s/he arrived or last arrived in Ireland.
Social insurance credited to a person under this Article may be used to satisfy all of the contribution conditions for entitlement to JB.
The form E301 should be forwarded to the relevant social security authority in the other Member State to request details of the person's social insurance record in that country.
EU Records Section, Buncrana, Co. Donegal are responsible for all Article 67 cases and should be contacted regarding the procedures to be followed in sending the E301.
Details of the person's actual earnings abroad are not sought. Instead, the person is credited with notional earnings (currently €629.42 in respect of each week that s/he worked in the other Member State. These notional earnings are added to any earnings from employment in this State in the GCY when calculating the average reckonable earnings. The sum of both is divided by the number of weeks worked abroad in the GCY plus the number of weeks worked in Ireland in the GCY.
You should go back to the office that refused you JSB and ask them why your NI contributions are being ignored.
Regarding the HRC, it is a bloody minefield. Note the wording is that you are only "likeley" to satisfy the condition, nothing definite.

paddy147

eastbono wrote: »

You will get a letter stating they have received your appeal. Your appeal will take a couple of months!!!

In your post you say that you were working in Northern Ireland, you can transfer your contributions from NI to the Republic as you have paid contributions in the Republic and you may qualify for Jobseekers Benefit which does not need HRC approval.

If you do qualify for JSB once it is in payment for a month you can transfer this payment to any EU country for 78 days t & c's apply. If you were thinking of heading back up North to look for work this would be very beneficial

A couple of months you say??

Try up to a year more like.:rolleyes:

As per what happend to my sister.14 months waiting to have an appeals hearing.:mad:

eastbono

If op is called for an oral hearing it will be about 12 months, any other appeal could take up to 6 months or more that is why I advised him to check out transferring his contributions from NI to the Republic.

bucketybuck

Thanks for the replies.

To be honest, I am a bit concerned about this. I did an interview with the social welfare where the lady could see that I have absolutely no income now that the job has gone. I do not have weeks, never mind months, before my savings are gone and I am on the street. It is very frustrating to think that my details will simply sit in a file in an office as if I didnt really need the help.

I will call into the local social welfare office in the morning, and ask to speak to somebody. This brings its own frustrations however, as I suspect I will just meet some well-meaning lady who wont actually have a clue what the procedures are, and who will probably just say "wait and see what the appeals office say" and hope that I go away. (As you can see, I have been in the local office already, I spent 40 minutes last week just trying to get a simple appeal form, those offices are horribly run).

Thanks once again for the advice.

Boxoffrogs

I was in a similar position. Took me 2 1/2 years to get it sorted. My only advice is to be extremely persistent. I had worked in the UK for a decade or more. Also worked on my return to Ireland so had more than enough contributions to qualify, yet it took that long to finally get it sorted. In the end they owed me more than €4,000 in back payments. Very frustrating when you have next to nothing to live on.

bucketybuck

Just to update the situation, and ask for further opinions.

I went into the local welfare office and spoke to a very helpful lady. It turns out that they believed that my centre of interest was not in the state, because I had never had worked in the state. This was news to me, having only come to Dublin to work, and working all year.

It turns out, that the company I worked for had never paid any PRSI on my behalf to the state. This is not surprising, the accounting team were useless, and the reason they closed down was because of tax issues, so it is no shock to find that they had messed up my personal details.

The lady showed me their report from the Revenue office showing zero contributions on my behalf. I asked why the copy of my P45 was not evidence of having worked, but she said they take their lead from the revenue office and so I need to sort things with them.

The thing is, as eastbono kindly stated upthread, I should be eligible for jobseekers benefit (as opposed to jobseekers allowance) through contributions made in Northern Ireland. If my previous employer had processed PRSI for me even once, my details and work history up north would have been transferred automatically and I would not be in this situation. When making my initial application for jobseekers, I filled in the form E301 which will have been sent to the North for these same details, but I do not know how long this will take.

Does anybody have any advice what to do now?

If I go to the revenue office, will they actually be able to do anything to prove to the Social welfare office that I have worked here in Ireland? Or are they more likely to start trying to get back payments of PRSI out of me?

How long does it take for the E301 form to get processed, and will they automtically put me on JS benefit once it comes back, or do I have to ask them to try again?


In other news, the liquidator is telling me that the outstanding wages and holiday pay I am owed will take up to six more months to come to me. What a country.

snubbleste

In fairness now, it's your ex-employer who is at fault. The SWO were incredibly helpful and told you they have zero record of you and showed you evidence of same. They could've fobbed you off. At least you now know about this.

You should follow their advice and go to Revenue in the morning and ask them if there is any record of you at all having worked here.
Did you get payslips, payment into bank account, etc.? If you have paid prsi, were these deducted by your employer but not forwarded on/recorded?
Your E301 application won't be valid unless you have made at least one contribution, which you were shown today has not been made. Gather any evidence you have before approaching the SWO again.

cee_jay

As stated, you need to do what SW told you to do. Get together your pay slips, P45, P60 - everything you have and go to Revenue.
If you are still getting nowhere with Revenue, get back to Social Welfare - ask them about completing an IA49 then at that stage - Form IA49 is a declaration stating that you believe your former employer did not comply with social insurance regulations. As a result of your declaration, there will be an investigation into your employer's payment of PRSI by a Social Welfare Inspector.

bucketybuck

I think I need to clarify something. My ex-employer was not paying PRSI, but then he also was not deducting it from my wage slips.

I never questioned this for two reasons. One, I was happy to assume our accountants were processing all wages as they should be, and for all I know any new employee in Ireland waited until passing a wage threshold before paying into the state, similar to tax bands. I admit I did notice and wonder about the zero value PRSI line on the wage slips, but I dont think I am the only person who would be slow to chase a company payroll and ask them to take more from their wages. I simply never questioned it.

So no doubt I benefited from this situation while still at work, but am only now feeling the side effects.

So does anybody know what view the Revenue office will take of this? Will they just say I should have sorted this earlier and its my own fault? Will they instead say I owe them money and start to come after me?

Athlone_Bhoy

Boxoffrogs wrote: »

I was in a similar position. Took me 2 1/2 years to get it sorted. My only advice is to be extremely persistent. I had worked in the UK for a decade or more. Also worked on my return to Ireland so had more than enough contributions to qualify, yet it took that long to finally get it sorted. In the end they owed me more than €4,000 in back payments. Very frustrating when you have next to nothing to live on.

It will back dated from the first day you applied. Nice to get the lump sum though.

Richard

bucketybuck wrote: »

I think I need to clarify something. My ex-employer was not paying PRSI, but then he also was not deducting it from my wage slips.

I never questioned this for two reasons. One, I was happy to assume our accountants were processing all wages as they should be, and for all I know any new employee in Ireland waited until passing a wage threshold before paying into the state, similar to tax bands. I admit I did notice and wonder about the zero value PRSI line on the wage slips, but I dont think I am the only person who would be slow to chase a company payroll and ask them to take more from their wages. I simply never questioned it.

So no doubt I benefited from this situation while still at work, but am only now feeling the side effects.

So does anybody know what view the Revenue office will take of this? Will they just say I should have sorted this earlier and its my own fault? Will they instead say I owe them money and start to come after me?

Just another thing with checking - were you paying the correct tax, or were you on emergency tax? I think it is unlikely, but if they kept you on emergency tax, then you are owed a refund.

bucketybuck

Richard wrote: »

Just another thing with checking - were you paying the correct tax, or were you on emergency tax? I think it is unlikely, but if they kept you on emergency tax, then you are owed a refund.

I dont think I was on emergency tax, the amount deducted each month did not seem excessive, and I got a tax refund in my wages at the end of December.