A permanent underclass?

Permabear

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ardmacha

For the uneducated and unqualified, in short, unemployment is here to stay.

They can always spend their days on Boards.ie.

beeftotheheels

Oh, how depressing an outlook to hold!

Particularly because it means you equate someone as intellectually dishonest as Constantin Gurdgiev as having merit because he managed to get (god knows how since his picture should appear next to "confirmation bias" in the OED) a PhD, while equating someone such as Shaw, who failed to finish school (bias based on his comments re: teachers???) as having none!

sollar

I agree with you on the time wasted on Religious Education and Irish in primary schools. We wasted time when i was there in the 80's and my son is still wasting his time doing the same now.

Sticky_Fingers

I would agree in part with Permabear but I would suggest that nearly everyone person in Ireland who wants to improve themselves already have the resources and ability to do so. What is lacking is the complete lack of advertisement of these resources and perhaps a structured path that people can follow so they are not completely overwhelmed by the amount of information out there.

We have the sum of all human knowledge right at our fingertips and there are many free online educational courses that could be used to help these people. You will always get the wasters who couldn't be bothered to pull the finger out to help themselves but I'm sure that if opportunities and resources for self learning were presented many would jump at the chance to improve their basic educational skill set.

It is not the lack of will that is holding many of these people back, many want to learn but are intimidated but the perceived scale of the knowledge mountain they need to climb.

This is where IMO the government comes in, they need to set out a road map for these people to follow and provide some structure to the learning process. There needs to be standardised tests and some support system in place, not like the bloated FAS system we currently have but something like a directory of participants who can form study groups and help each other overcome any difficulties they are having.

All of this can be done with minimal cost to the taxpayer, in fact it already has been done by a guy who set up a free online school in his spare time. It doesn't at present provide a well rounded education (I use it myself though to brush up on my math skills which have gone a bit rusty) but with a tiny fraction of the money currently pumped into adult education it could really become an invaluable resource.

Noreen1

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm curious as to how these statistics were collected.
Quite apart from the fact that the IALS figures are sixteen years old, what do they base their assumptions on?

As to the National Adult Literacy Agency and their 40% figure - I would suggest that they are not exactly an impartial body, and I would again question how these assumptions were reached.

I would agree that for the uneducated and unqualified, unmeployment is here to stay for the forseeable future. I seriously doubt that 40% of adults don't know the formula for calculating the area of a field, though.

Sticky_Fingers

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm curious as to how these statistics were collected.
Quite apart from the fact that the IALS figures are sixteen years old, what do they base their assumptions on?

As to the National Adult Literacy Agency and their 40% figure - I would suggest that they are not exactly an impartial body, and I would again question how these assumptions were reached.

I would agree that for the uneducated and unqualified, unmeployment is here to stay for the forseeable future. I seriously doubt that 40% of adults don't know the formula for calculating the area of a field, though.

Perhaps they might know how to work out the area of a rectangular field but throw in a small bit of complexity and some people will flap about not knowing where to start. The problem I see with our education system is that it's a one shot deal, you pass your tests and away you go.

I've met first year university physics students who after getting relatively good marks in LC maths couldn't differentiate a simple equation the following October, not because they are dumb but because they were taught how to do it by rote with little explanation of fundamentals underlying it. I shudder to think what would happen to their math skills after only a few years of neglect never mind someone who barely scrapped through pass maths and then went to work on the sites labouring. If these people are retraining how many doors will be closed on them if they have forgotten basic trigonometry or how to solve a simultaneous equation. The government talks a good talk about the knowledge economy but these guys don't have a chance if they can't solve basic math problems.

We need to reeducate these people but more importantly we also need to inoculate the wider public with the notion of continuous education and revision of the basic fundamentals. I wonder how many people who have gone through the wringer that is the Irish education system are now struggling to help their own children with math or science homework?

Our greatest weakness is not the lack of education but the publics and IMO the governments unwillingness to expend a small bit of effort or resources to retain what these people have already learned.

Peanut

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Our greatest weakness is not the lack of education but the publics and IMO the governments unwillingness to expend a small bit of effort or resources to retain what these people have already learned.

Yes but as you say yourself, there is little point in continuing a rote-based education system, so retraining people using the same methods is just going to keep repeating the same mistake.

What's needed is an approach based on applied knowledge - spending time on rote learning Honours level maths is not going to really benefit your prospective software engineer who would be much, much better off completing mini IT projects instead of memorising trigonometry.

The popular view that a "knowledge economy" will suddenly spring out of prioritising higher level maths is complete fantasy.

nesf

To be honest being able to add and count is enough for most jobs, being able to multiply is only necessary in a few others. The amount of jobs that actually require LC level maths are very few and the amount that benefit from college level maths are almost non-existant.

Speaking as someone with a good dollop of college level mathematics under his belt.

Sticky_Fingers

Peanut wrote: »

Yes but as you say yourself, there is little point in continuing a rote-based education system, so retraining people using the same methods is just going to keep repeating the same mistake.

What's needed is an approach based on applied knowledge - spending time on rote learning Honours level maths is not going to really benefit your prospective software engineer who would be much, much better off completing mini IT projects instead of memorising trigonometry.

The popular view that a "knowledge economy" will suddenly spring out of prioritising higher level maths is complete fantasy.

I'm not in favour of rote learning, learn the basics and nearly everything can be solved using first principles. The problem is that we are allowing the basics to atrophy through lack of use or in the worst case never being learned to start with. I'm not advocating memorising trig functions but if you don't understand them or have forgotten how to use them then you have a gaping hole in your knowledge that needs to be corrected, you may not need them now but who's to say your going to be a software engineer in 5 years time. This goes for all fundamental mathematics, you never know when you will need it be it for a IT project or a new job in a completely different field.

By all means do the applied training and learning through mini projects but everyone, be they a labourer or neurosurgeon should have a firm grasp of the basics, anything less should be unacceptable in this day and age.

nesf wrote: »

To be honest being able to add and count is enough for most jobs, being able to multiply is only necessary in a few others. The amount of jobs that actually require LC level maths are very few and the amount that benefit from college level maths are almost non-existant.

Speaking as someone with a good dollop of college level mathematics under his belt.

The problem is that people are walking around with only a rudimentary knowledge of very basic math and science. They may only need addition and subtraction now but what happens if they are made redundant and are required to retrain for something else? I'm not saying that everyone will need calculus to get a job (it would be nice though) but the fact remains (I know from family experience) that grown adults are struggling to help their own children will very basic math homework.

As for the usefulness of higher level mathematics in the jobs market I think that this is true, I have not used a fraction of the stuff I learned in Uni. Unfortunately the fact that I have not needed it has meant that I have lost quite a bit of the more esoteric stuff (a situation that I am currently trying to remedy through self study). I have the bits of paper that says that I can do this and do that but the truth is I have lost some of my rather expensive education through lack of use. However just because I have not used it does not mean that the knowledge itself was not valuable, I'm a great believer in education for educations sake and perhaps there will be a day when it will stand me in good stead but if it doesn't then so be it.

ei.sdraob

How about the usefulness of mathematics when borrowing money, clearly a good chunk of the population (and their bank managers) did their sums before putting X on the line, right? right??

Debtocracy

In the future there will be huge unemployment because machines and computer programmes are outperforming humans. If we are still functioning by the anchient tenets of capitalism this will be a bad as it will put the majority of the population into poverty while channelling more wealth to the top. If we manage to develop some form of an intelligent economic system, this will be good as people will have to work less to maintain the same standard of living.

Permabear

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pog it

Have to say I completely agree with Permabear except for the point they made that the focus on Irish/religion is somewhat responsible for the poor outcomes. Learning any second language is a big deal and does help you take on the all important third language if you are going down a career path where you need languages. Learning Irish should be beneficial regardless as it's a difficult language for anyone to master, or even learn something of, especially relative to other languages, and that is partly the reason why French/German come out so unblemished in all of the talk about learning Irish/how Irish is taught, etc. - these two foreign languages are far easier to learn and yet few people ever acknowledge that.

One of the major problems we have here is that we have very poor teachers here. The points for Arts is too low. The good teachers are in the minority but thankfully we have an outstanding minister for education in Ruairí Quinn who intends to make it harder for people to gain entry into teaching courses. This is long due and should make a big difference in years to come.

But I feel sorry for this 'underclass' as it seems as if the government is actually doing nothing for them. Maybe the best we could do for them would be to provide grinds schools in disadvantaged areas for one-to-one tuition and do some of what the UK is doing in terms of one-to-one mentoring to get these people working - there are lots of non-academic but fulfulling jobs out there that would give a lot of these people a sense of pride and a way of living.

charlemont

sollar wrote: »

I agree with you on the time wasted on Religious Education and Irish in primary schools. We wasted time when i was there in the 80's and my son is still wasting his time doing the same now.

I find those that are good at Irish tend to do well at other languages unfortunately I'm no good at either.

Permabear

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Nodin

Permabear wrote: »

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"stuff and nonsense" to describe that is being both kind and restrained, I think.

#15

Permabear wrote:

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There is no political will to remove religion from schools. Quinn talks a good game but I'm not optimistic that he'll get things done. I hope he succeeds though.

Religious education is not a part of the national curriculum at primary level though - so as long as the patronage issue stays unresolved, religious education instruction will be on the menu.
There are many teachers who ignore the requirements for religion, but really, they shouldn't have to be in that situation in the first place.

Also, this thread is just rehashing old ground and there's a good chance it will turn into the usual circular nonsense by clueless would-be educational reformers by page 3.

Permabear

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RedXIV

Permabear wrote: »

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Well then, as someone who is always on the lookout for a business opportunity, I'd be interested to know if you think there might be a private option to follow.

We've plenty of teachers who are looking for employment, maybe we could put them to use through a viable business plan?

#15

Permabear wrote: »

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Ok fine. Leaving aside educational reform.

What would you do with these people? If the assumption is that they can't be retrained, where do you go from there?

Even if retraining is the political answer, it doesn't seem like there are many alternatives.

Permabear

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D1stant

#15 wrote: »

Ok fine. Leaving aside educational reform.

What would you do with these people? If the assumption is that they can't be retrained, where do you go from there?

Well its easy. You pay lipservice to retraining and knowledge economies, whilst cutting back on social welfare. Eventually, most of the problem goes away... to the UK probably

You are left with an unemployable residue, but as long as its small enough to balance books, life goes on, repeats, etc

Manach

I strongly disagree with PermaBear's comments on religion. Personally having gone through the Education system belonging to one of the poorer classes, religion did not seek to pigeon-hole people based on their parents jobs or lack thereof but encouraged a can-do spirit of equality. It also encourage a thirst for learning that has served me well in life in the Science/Engineering and other fields.

RedXIV

Permabear wrote: »

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I wouldn't be too sure on that...after all since the problem doesn't seem to be getting properly addressed then there is no reason why someone couldn't come up with a set of "schools". Off the top of my head the only crowd that would object would be FAS but I'm not exactly sure how they plan to stop a set of schools.

As long as we don't come up with a bogus set of qualifications, and concentrate on, as pointed out earlier, the skills required for people to help themselves learn, they can use the established routes to hit the various educational checkboxes that they desire.

I don't think there are alternatives. Simply, we don't (and won't) have enough menial jobs in the non-booming domestic sector — and we can't compete with countries such China on manufacturing, because Irish costs and wages have been pushed far too high.

It true that the current situation simply isn't sufficient but there is no reason why people couldn't be trained up to minimum level for NEW industries here.
Hell, the best programmer I know left the building sites at the end of the boom and turned out to be extremely gifted at IT.

Just get the feeling that we could be selling an awful lot of people short here

Wolfe Tone

So Permabear, do you want the dole and the minimum wage slashed? Is that what you are driving at?

#15

Permabear wrote: »

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Charter schools have nothing to with retraining adults.

RedXIV may have something - a private system for retraining adults may work.
In theory anyway.

Cookie_Monster

Irish and Religion classes only served one purpose for me, doing homework for other subjects

rumour

Noreen1 wrote: »

I seriously doubt that 40% of adults don't know the formula for calculating the area of a field, though.

I'm curious, what is the formula?

Cookie_Monster

rumour wrote: »

I'm curious, what is the formula?

X metres times Y metres = Z square metres

assuming, of course, it's square or rectangular

simples

pog it

#15 wrote: »

a private system for retraining adults may work.
In theory anyway.

Something like this is already under way in the UK. The company get X amount of money if they help get a long-term unemployed person back to work and if that person stays in that job for X amount of months/years. There was a series about it recently on BBC.

It would be great to see them training in the areas of cooking and finance ((:)). There is tonnes of work for chefs and it doesn't take much financial knowledge to get work in accounts payable/payroll etc. and there are jobs in these areas.

Sticky_Fingers

Permabear wrote: »

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I think you are over egging the problem here, if you can search youtube for a laughing baby video then you have sufficient internet skillz to avail of these services. You also seemed to disregard the fact that I said:
"this is where IMO the government comes in, they need to set out a road map for these people to follow and provide some structure to the learning process. There needs to be standardised tests and some support system in place"

The people who lack the basic literacy to use the internet will need additional state help but somehow I don't think you'd be in favour of that unless there was a buck in it somewhere for the private sector.

Permabear wrote: »

Well, there are two discussions to be had here — the first is what to do about the huge numbers of undereducated, unskilled people who make up the current long-term unemployed. The second relates to reforming the educational system so that fewer people in the future suffer the same problems with core literacy skills.

Frankly, I'm more interested in the former question. The political answer is to retrain these people and get them back to work — but I don't actually think that's possible.

So what do you propose we do with "these people"? You say yourself that the low skill jobs are gone and are not coming back and you don't think it's possible to retrain because that's only the "political" answer. There are only a few choices in front of of us with regards this issue:

1: Do nothing and leave the unskilled on the dole scratching their backsides

2: Invest some time and effort into retraining people and improving their standard of education so that at least some have the hope of rejoining the workforce

3: Try and compete with China/India for the low skilled jobs (that's a complete non starter)

4: Cut them loose completely and let them fend for themselves by emigrating or by other means (lets call this the apolitical solution)

Any other choices that I've missed out I'd love to hear them...

ei.sdraob

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

3: Try and compete with China/India for the low skilled jobs (that's a complete non starter)

You might be in for a shock but there is talent in these 2 countries that are far from "low skilled", I have to compete daily with people and companies from around the world, these people are very highly motivated to succeed in a fiercely competitive environment,

acer1000

Is 40% not knowing how to calculate the area of a field that shocking or even surprising, given that 40% of the population would be below average intelligence?

What do you propose? Hype up the already force feeding of maths?

The middle classes are going to have to carry them, Permabear, what's new?

On the matter of religion, I’d have to say that I found the subject useful for life, far more so than maths and I’m talking as somebody who did reams of the useless ****e that is maths in college. I would broaden the scope of religion, throw in some philosophy and make it an exam subject for the LC, sacrificing some of the maths curriculum whilst making Irish optional.

One person mentioned that maths was needed for those taking out morgages and the bad consequences of them not having a good proficiency in the subject. Maybe so, but I think it had more to do with the unethical behaviour of those at the top in the political and banking spheres, thus highlighting the need and the importance of some type of ethical education.

There wouldn't be so many redundant for life ex-contruction workers if senior officials in public life had made more ethically informed decisions.

I just don't go with all this 'smart economy' ****e that gets bandied about. It just seems like hot air coming from morally bankrupt politicians and their champions. I say f**k maths scores and tables, I'm sick hearing about it, is that what's really important? How about some etical standards or tables, like where we stand in the lying politician table. Or how do we score on international tables on how we hold senior public/private officials to account for wrong doings?

Even if we were to get to the top of all academic leagues, what would be the point if we don't sort out our ethical issues?

Nodin

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You might be in for a shock but there is talent in these 2 countries that are far from "low skilled", I have to compete daily with people and companies from around the world, these people are very highly motivated to succeed in a fiercely competitive environment,

I think he just referred to the existence of low skilled labour there, rather than mean that thats the only type of workforce in those countries.

ei.sdraob

Nodin wrote: »

I think he just referred to the existence of low skilled labour there, rather than mean that thats the only type of workforce in those countries.

Well they do have large populations, short of isolating ourselves North Korea style alot more Irish people better start waking up that the world has changed and is very globalized and highly competitive, and not just at the low skill/mundane type of jobs, I would not look down on anyone from our little island.

Rubik.

Permabear wrote: »

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"Most of those who scored at Level 1 were in the older age groups.There are a number of possible reasons why so many older people scored at Level 1 in IALS:
• they may not have completed primary school;
• may not have been able to take advantage of free second level education which was only introduced in 1967; or
• they may only have developed the literacy skills required for society at that time."

http://www.nala.ie/content/international-adult-literacy-survey-results-ireland

Since this survey was conducted nearly 13 years ago, I think it is safe to assume that a lot of the above are no longer in the labour market.

Peanut

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

... However just because I have not used it does not mean that the knowledge itself was not valuable, I'm a great believer in education for educations sake and perhaps there will be a day when it will stand me in good stead but if it doesn't then so be it.

Education for it's own sake is a laudable goal in itself, however in times of need people will necessarily want to see more of a direct connection between training and monetary reward.

If it's not clear that re-education will result in improved prospects, there will be little appetite for it, especially for older students with more financial commitments. I don't like it either but that's the reality of it.

cavedave

OT

beeftotheheels

Particularly because it means you equate someone as intellectually dishonest as Constantin Gurdgiev as having merit because he managed to get (god knows how since his picture should appear next to "confirmation bias" in the OED) a PhD, while equating someone such as Shaw, who failed to finish school (bias based on his comments re: teachers???) as having none!

Here is a video of George Bernard Shaw saying that parasites should be killed off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ

He wanted the chemists to devise a humane gas to kill.

You may not like Constantin Gurdgiev but he is not a eugenics advocating monster

Permabear

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anymore

Permabear wrote: »

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I went through a catholic primary and secondary school. It is utter nonsense to say that Irish and religion were given primacy over virtually everyhting else - in fact I will say it is absolute b/s to say that - and i am no defender of the Catholic church. My memory is that the subject which received most absolute time was maths. Religion had a few half hour classes a week and I cant even remember if there were too many in 5th and 6th year. You want to know where literacy problems start, it is in the home.

beagle001

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You might be in for a shock but there is talent in these 2 countries that are far from "low skilled", I have to compete daily with people and companies from around the world, these people are very highly motivated to succeed in a fiercely competitive environment,

Plus 1
Indians by and large the new middle class Indians are well read and often highly educated especially in I.T.
I have done some contract work in Hong Kong/China and believe me the people over there know how to work and are fiercely determined to succeed at all costs,some not so healthy approaches but they are driven.
I am taking Chinese as an external qualification for the next 4 yrs with a hope of being profficient in the language to be able to compete at a minimum in industry out there,I know I will probably never grasp Chinese writing but the language will be a major bonus.

Sticky_Fingers

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Well they do have large populations, short of isolating ourselves North Korea style alot more Irish people better start waking up that the world has changed and is very globalized and highly competitive, and not just at the low skill/mundane type of jobs, I would not look down on anyone from our little island.

Steady on, nobodies looking down on anybody here, this is a thread about low skilled workers and the lack of opportunities for them in this country not about the plight of those in more specialised or technical roles. I would however suggest that the solution to both these problems would be better education of the workforce at large, we can't seriously compete on price per unit man hour in any industry when compared to China/India so we must compete on quality.

Rubik.

Permabear wrote: »

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I wasn't consigning it to the past, what I was doing was pointing out that in the period 1994 to 1998 72% of those at level 1 were over 46. Most of those would no longer be in the workforce and of those replacing them in the labour market, far fewer would be at that level of literacy. The projected 14.9% at level 1 in 2020 for all age groups is around 10% lower than what it was when the survey was conducted. So, at least with regards to level 1 there has been significant improvements, unfortunately the same cannot be said of level 2.

Yes, Ireland will have a high unemployment rate and weak domestic demand for the forseeable future, but you seem to be suggesting that - that's it, from now on that will always be the case. I don't think you can say that with any degree of certainty.

Manach

Firstly I'd echo the comments about the excellence Chinese/Indian IT workers.

How sustainable is the permanent (mostly urban) nonworking elements within society. Purely based on classical Rome, medium-term. In that a societal cycle builds that dis-incentives social mobility so long as adequte "bread and circuses" are supplied to reduce social discontent. In the long-term, the compaction of the equistrian/middle orders diminishes the tax-base so much that a cycle of crises will ensue.

feicim

Permabear wrote: »

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You left out a very important part - for the educated and qualified, unemployment is here to stay too. Because there are not enough jobs in Ireland. If we were bursting from the seams with an educated and qualified dole queue (which we kind of are) the unemployment problem would still be here.

Ireland in particular and the global north in general is going through the next phase of post-fordist deindustrialisation.

Phase 1 - 1960's-1980's - Jobs lost in manufacturing - peaks in 1980's
Phase 2 - 1980-mid 2000's - spending of borrowed money in countries economies stimulates jobs in non-manufacturing areas (tertiary employment). construction and other services type jobs etc.
Beginning of pyramid/ponzi style scheme of national economies.

Phase 3 - mid 2000's till ?? - Countries facility to borrow money evaporates. Financial crises. Now as well as the lost (and ongoing) job losses in manufacturing - the services jobs all evaporate. Cue architects, electricians, solicitors and other services jobs signing on the dole.

With losses in manufacturing ongoing and the newly created services jobs gone as well - and no facility for either the Irish government or the Irish public to borrow and spend enough money in the economy to create new jobs - there is only going to be one outcome - a permanent underclass.

Basically like now - a large section of the population that are surplus to requirements (jobswise of course).

But it is not the teaching of Irish and religion or the large number of people without literacy or university educations that is the problem - this is a ridiculously simplistic interpretation of the problem. it is other external factors combined with the policies that successive Irish governments have chosen for Ireland.

Dyr

Permabear wrote: »

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Sorry to contradict your prejudices about the underclass but you can. I did. I left school after the leaving cert, no way my parents could afford college so I spent the ensuing years working in warehouses and factories, unemployed, doing nixers etc until I finally got sick of the dead end job i was in and managed to land a year long IT course funded by FÁS, went straight into employment in IT sector and have been there ever since. As did the majority of people who finished that course, some of whom would now be considered SME's in their field.

Of course to replicate this on a national scale would mean that we would have overhaul our education system so that it was fair and equitable and gave every child opportunities based on their abilities rather than on mummy and daddies income. I reckon our elitist overlords are'nt gonna stand for that though, can't have the underclass undermining their beliefs in proper breeding

maynooth_rules

I was working as a supervisor during the state examinations this year, and after the examination I took a look a the Religion exam. A joke and an utter utter waste of time IMO. I have stressed the point elsewhere here but to have religion as an exam subject and not IT is a joke in todays society

Shea O'Meara

Permabear wrote: »

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This isn't anything new unfortunately. In certain areas it's common place to leave school as soon as legally possible, in others you're in the minority if you don't attend third level.
Some schools push learning, others kill time and that's pupils and teachers alike. I've sat in classes were a teacher was obviously drunk or head in the newspaper for most of the day. But it's a broader issue. When you are use to nothing, anything seems reasonable. So growing up seeing family and neighbours short on cash leads you to grab the first job you can get. Third level is in the realm of fantasy, if it ever crosses your mind at all. A chap I know well was laughed at by his career guidance teacher when he said he wanted to attend a particular third level course, so he put that behind him, only to find through talking to people years later it was plausable. He graduated in his early thirties instead of his twenties, thanks to that career particular guidance person.
The glut of jobs, low/minimum wage as they were would have made the early school leaver less likely to look at the leaving cert or some college course.
This is my take on the working class:
Grow up tight for money. Grab the first job you can. Drift from one to the other if the economy is good, stick with a company for years if you're lucky and don't get laid off. As governments come and go you can gauge how good they are doing by how many jobs are or are not about. Then when the economy hits the wall you're the nations whipping boy unless you're unemployed because in that case you're viewed a pariah on society. If on minimum wage, 'Sure take a cut there like a good fellah, the country is broke, with your house, sure we all got greedy, I saw you driving a new car!'
This has been the way of things for my lifetime. Some make a good break for it, the majority are chained to the blue collar merry-go-round and it's not by choice or because of lack of potential.

Education and training is key, but FFail in their infinite wisdom cut back on V.E.C. places, (as far as I know this has not been reversed) which are sometimes a stepping stone to higher academia if not an above minimum wage position.
Like the bankers and politicians we've seen be held to account:rolleyes:...this changing anytime soon is just bluster from self interested parties.

It seems the only concern shown, thought or time given to disadvantaged tax payers, (lets not forget that) is when the right wing self absorbed types feel it weighing on their purse strings. And that's why we'll not see a longterm fix.

JustinDee

Permabear wrote: »

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You are blaming the choice made by a large number of people in their late teens/early twenties, not to finish school or continue onwards to further education of some descript ... on everybody else but themselves. They made the choice. The option not to jump on the construction bandwagon was still there.

Permabear wrote: »

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Anyone can be retrained. The most apparent of the many obstacles is the person themselves. Not the bloody environment they're in.
It is not a "political fiction" in the slightest.

The problem is people who have long felt that they are owed something by the country for nothing. Republic of Ireland is nowhere near the dystopian basket case that some would have us believe it is.
Wallowing in a melodramatic self-pitying blame-game is hardly productive or even realistic. Get off said keyster and do something about it. My father changed his skillset entirely from a security guard to become an expert in electronics with no contacts and with nothing but nothing but hard yakka. He was aged 55 when he lost security job. Lost job later on in electronics store two years aged 62 and is now working in another.

Read 'The Fountainhead', one of my favourite books ever written for some inspiration. Its author, Ayn Rand, once said "Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think".

Permabear

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