Who is behind "Enough" protest (Sat 16th)?

Boulevardier

Does anybody know whether the "Enough" protest taking place in Dublin tomorrow (Saturday 16th) is being run purely by SWP/PBP or whether there is a broader coalition behind it?

Pete_Cavan

It doesnt matter who is behind it, it will be hijacked by left wing extremists regardless.

Corsendonk

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It doesnt matter who is behind it, it will be hijacked by left wing extremists regardless.

How can it be if their running it?

20Cent

Its on their poster who is behind it.
http://enoughcampaign.org/2011/07/01/protest-against-eu-imf-deal-saturday-16th-july/


When is the right wing protest or are they ok with whats happening?

spank_inferno

valid cause..... wrong leaders.

Inverse to the power of one!

spank_inferno wrote: »

valid cause..... wrong leaders.

For want of a better word.....Bollix!

Apologies if it's a bit blunt, but it's a standard fall back in Ireland.

I wouldn't vote for FF, but who else is there....

I'd like to protest, but I don't want to be seen with that shower

I know what he did was wrong...but he's the local priest.

Haughty was corrupt, but he gave us the IFSC and the temple bar you know.

That Healy-Rae is a gob****e, but he does well for the area

Property can't go up forever, but it will hold it's value or at worse only drop by 20%

Etc...etc...

It never ends and it never will. We've been through the grind already and still haven't changed.

Orwell once said:

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.

For Ireland:

If you want a picture of the future, imagine an excuse coming out of every person—forever.

I wish I had a nuke right now.....

Jagle

wont get anywhere near the press coverage it should get in national media either

charlemont

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

For want of a better word.....Bollix!

Apologies if it's a bit blunt, but it's a standard fall back in Ireland.







Etc...etc...

It never ends and it never will. We've been through the grind already and still haven't changed.

Orwell once said:


For Ireland:


I wish I had a nuke right now.....

Collectively by far the stupidest of all Western European peoples..
The Catholic church done a great job in conditioning the people to tolerate uselessness.

Inverse to the power of one!

charlemont wrote: »

Collectively by far the stupidest of all Western European peoples..
The Catholic church done a great job in conditioning the people to tolerate uselessness.

Not so sure about stupid, too smart for our own good might be the problem. I have known the heights of ingenuity in Ireland when it comes to one's getting a leg over, rarely seen elsewhere I've traveled.

My outlook is a lack of integrity and a failure to recognize such. People in the same sentence as one of the above excuses will also claim to be unimpeachable. The tolerance of abuses during the Catholic era is a good example of this duality in Irish society as well, those closest to the church were at the same time seeing themselves as the moral authority.

History has it's part to play as well, but we're in the here and now, and badly need to break from these behavioral habits.

blahfckingblah

protests only ever get "hijacked" by left wing groups because nobody else bothers to protest. its all down to people not wanting to be seen out with the socialists, snobbery if you like.

nesf

blahfckingblah wrote: »

protests only ever get "hijacked" by left wing groups because nobody else bothers to protest. its all down to people not wanting to be seen out with the socialists, snobbery if you like.

Or they're smart enough to figure out that if the socialists want something to happen it's probably not in the centre's interests which is where the vast majority of the people are.

nesf

20Cent wrote: »

When is the right wing protest or are they ok with whats happening?

They had a protest about abortion a week or two ago. Priests in cassocks and all.

AhSureTisGrand

spank_inferno wrote: »

valid cause..... wrong leaders.

And that's being generous

Liam Byrne

blahfckingblah wrote: »

protests only ever get "hijacked" by left wing groups because nobody else bothers to protest. its all down to people not wanting to be seen out with the socialists, snobbery if you like.

I'd view myself as left-of-centre, and therefore socialist.

I'm just not as extreme or (ironically) anti-social as most of the crowds that show up at these protests.

Not saying that those crowds are the genuine protesters or what the organisers want, but I'm not going to go to a protest that results in scenes like those that the "love Ulster" parade and the like last year.

"Left" is fine with me; "Thug / ASBO / Troublemaker" isn't.

Denerick

'Enough' of what, exactly? I want to see some genuine alternatives to the voodoo economics of the international consensus (Austerity + Denial of reality) and the far left consensus (Deficit spending + Denial of Reality)

Constantin Gurdgiev (sic), please?

blahfckingblah

nesf wrote: »

Or they're smart enough to figure out that if the socialists want something to happen it's probably not in the centre's interests which is where the vast majority of the people are.

well thats a slight generalisation not all of what socialists want is against the centres interests.
liam i agree with you but a lot of these protests end up with a small minority doing stupid things maybe if theres more decent people to prevent this happening

nesf

blahfckingblah wrote: »

well thats a slight generalisation not all of what socialists want is against the centres interests.

Their solutions generally run counter to what the people want (given how people vote in this country which is extremely heavily FG/Lab/FF).

djpbarry

The basis for the protest makes little sense...

BAIL OUT THE PEOPLE NOT THE BANKERS

SCRAP EU-IMF DEAL

Richard Boyd-Barrett and Co. must surely be aware that it is the funding of "the people", through public sector salaries and welfare, that is the principal contributor to Ireland's current difficulties, bankers or no bankers.

20Cent

djpbarry wrote: »

The basis for the protest makes little sense...
Richard Boyd-Barrett and Co. must surely be aware that it is the funding of "the people", through public sector salaries and welfare, that is the principal contributor to Ireland's current difficulties, bankers or no bankers.

The power of media truly is amazing when there are people who still think like this. Put down the Sunday Indo and turn off newstalk.

Padraig Mor

20Cent wrote: »

The power of media truly is amazing when there are people who still think like this. Put down the Sunday Indo and turn off newstalk.

So you're saying we actually DON'T have a c. 20 billion day to day spending deficit that has nothing to do with the banks? Awesome!

BlaasForRafa

20Cent wrote: »

The power of media truly is amazing when there are people who still think like this. Put down the Sunday Indo and turn off newstalk.

So lets pay public servants more and put an A+E ward in every village, sure don't we have an inexhaustable supply of money? Don't we?

20Cent

We used to laugh at the statistic that 60% or something of Americans thought Saddam Hussein did 911. In Ireland we have people thinking that the worldwide financial meltdown was caused by Gardai, teachers and nurses.

Pete_Cavan

20Cent wrote: »

We used to laugh at the statistic that 60% or something of Americans thought Saddam Hussein did 911. In Ireland we have people thinking that the worldwide financial meltdown was caused by Gardai, teachers and nurses.

What you are failing to grasp is that, regardless of the banks and worldwide financial meltdown, Berties give-away budgets left us in a situation where our national expenditure exceeded our income by €20bn and we had to borrow this money. Now we can no longer borrow the money on the bond markets (because no one believes we will pay it back) so without the EU/IMF bailout we would have no money to pay Gardai, teachers and nurses.

You and Richard Boyd-Barrett can go out and chant slogans like "Bail out people not banks" but until you find another source of funding, or manage to bring our expenditure in line with our income without cutting services, the rest of us will dismiss these protests as a denial of reality. And no, it has nothing to do with the "power of media".

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

The power of media truly is amazing when there are people who still think like this. Put down the Sunday Indo and turn off newstalk.

Do feel free to point out how I am wrong.

namawinelake

Truth be told the bailout is for a mix of (1) the deficit that has occurred as a result of the banking/property sector collapse and (2) recapitalising the banks and paying for losses therein.

Those who say the cuts and new taxes are just for (1) are just as bad as those whose say it's just for (2). It's a mix.

But number (1), the deficit will have to be eliminated. We must have a country where the taxes taken in balance with the public sector and social welfare. There will always be questions though about the best and fairest way of making that happen.

It's number (2) where we might have the best chance of making savings. Michael Noonan is trying his hand/luck with burning senior bondholders at Anglo/INBS. But I think everyone in this country wants better results (probably including Michael Noonan). So protests might show those here and elsewhere that Ireland is not lying down, not when the IMF supports the burning of bondholders and not when the EU itself is forcing Ireland to break the 60% debt:GDP cap that is supposed to apply to EuroZone countries, and from which each bond payment carries us furthert and further away.

By the way you might be interested in a new Facebook page launched by a group of Cork villagers yesterday, Bondwatch, which tracks the bonds being repaid at the banks, week-in, week-out and creates a discussion about what those bond payments, the millions and billions of euros, might be better used for.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bondwatch/136610376421120

djpbarry

namawinelake wrote: »

Truth be told the bailout is for a mix of (1) the deficit that has occurred as a result of the banking/property sector collapse and (2) recapitalising the banks and paying for losses therein.

Those who say the cuts and new taxes are just for (1) are just as bad as those whose say it's just for (2).

Nobody is saying that the bailout is required entirely for the purposes of meeting current spending (although most of it is), or at least I certainly am not. I said the current deficit is the principal contributors to Ireland’s difficulties, not Ireland’s need for a bailout. Although, in the absence of the current deficit (or at least the astronomical one that currently exists), it is possible that Ireland would still be in a position to borrow on the markets and no bailout would be required.

namawinelake

Hi djpbarry, sorry I didn't mean to suggest you did, but you do frequently hear the need for austerity - cuts and taxes - is to pay the salaries of gardai,nurses and teachers. That is true but the austerity is, in addition, needed to pay for the banks.

You also hear that the austerity is just to pay for the banks, or at least that is the implication. And that is just as untrue because even if there were no bank problems, we would need still need balance the budget after the fiscal collapse in 2008.

skelliser

The vast majority of the irish public fail to grasp the fundamentals of this mess as outlined brilliantly by namawinelake above.

Its blame it all on the bankers bertie etc.

No mention of the 3 consecutive Fianna Fail/bertie/mccreavy reigns of stupidity that people voted for!!

Namawinelake you should add that (1) and (2) above are now one in the same thanks to Lendahands genius idea of the bank gaurantee.

The Waltzing Consumer

Another socialist workers party front group as usual. "Thousands expected"

http://www.thejournal.ie/thousands-expected-for-anti-austerity-march-178637-Jul2011/

"We are absolutely determined to mobilise mass opposition to this economic madness over the coming weeks and bring the spirit of Greek, Spanish and for that matter Egyptian style resistance to this country."

Thankfully, people ain't that stupid yet, so only about four hundred turned up.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0716/protest.html

It was obviously so successful, that the story about the protest only gives one paragraph to the protest and the remaining six paragraphs to stress tests and banking information.

Give it up RBB, no one wants to see your wet dream of violence. :rolleyes:

rodento

400 attend the march, nuff said:rolleyes:

20Cent

Firstly we have been having "austerity" budgets since 2008 and things are getting worse. Was it Einstein who said doing the same thing expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Cutting does not necessarily mean a reduction in the deficit. Getting rid of SNA's or carers causes more problems/expense further down the road.

The bank bailout is costing us 70 - 100 billion.

Two months ago we repaid €200m in unsecured unguaranteed senior bondholders at Anglo. This is twice the planned savings from the closing of a&e services this year. (Source Namawinelake). Next September the Government will pay €706 million to unguaranteed, anonymous Anglo Irish Bank bondholders. Source Stephen Donnolly TD. (Enough to pay the SNA bill for 140 years).
10's of billions more are scheduled!!
http://thechatteringmagpie14.blogspot.com/

Anglo lied about their losses when the gurantee was made it should be null and void. Anglo lent money to people in order to artificially inflate its share price totally illegal. Money was put in overnight to boost the balance sheet for regulators. Anglo is a criminal enterprise and we are paying for it!!!!!!!!!

You think the Portugese, Spanish or Italians would put up with this? Like fcuk they would. They won't be paying out unsecured unguranteed bonds thats for sure. Paddy is expected to watch people die on trolleys and kids go without an education to pay for these debts which are private. If you or I invest in something and it goes bust tough luck thats capitalism. The ecb are blackmailing Ireland into paying the reckless lending of France and Germany to private banks in Ireland.

They want to cut the pay of someone earning 9.50 an hour. Is there any empirical evidence that this will increase jobs? Stephen Donnolly asked this in the Dail. Answer: no there is not.

2b taken from private sector pensions. What will this money be used for? Will it create more jobs. Answer: don't know.

Who are the bondholders? Have they already sold them at a discount? Are they insured? Have insurance companies paid out on them? Answer: Don't know.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/decisions-should-be-based-on-evidence-not-blind-faith-2811865.html

The Government hasn't done any sums or set any targets. And there is no list of bondholders. What is the rationale for some of the Government's biggest decisions? Is there proof they will help the situations. Answer: No.

We have a political scandal per week these days. Brazen Healy Rae, Calloly, Bertie etc etc ad anusium nothing gets done.

A few 100,000 + protests in the city would do.
You'd see the interest rate reduced and some burden sharing.
If the citizens make it clear we want transparencty and honsty from our representatives we will get it. If it is made clear that anyone not fighting for Ireland will not get re elected.
We need real political reform not bs about getting rid of 20 tds or a dress code!!
We need a to see some results in the investigation into anglo, it is dragging on throw more resources at it sort it out. Fix that stuff before going back to take more from the poor and vulnerable.

Waiting until the next election is not an option. Its self defence at this stage. Waiting for a protest that you agree with 100% will not happen, not going because the SWP will be there is not a excuse. There has been remarcably little trouble at any of these protests. Some big 100,000 + protests and you'd see things changing, untill then paddy is being used as a punchbag and taking it.

rodento

The protests in portugal, Greece and the UK seem to have made a huge difference to the austerity budgets:rolleyes:

20Cent

rodento wrote: »

The protests in portugal, Greece and the UK seem to have made a huge difference to the austerity budgets:rolleyes:

The post is not just about austerity budgets. Greece and Portugal have lower interest rates than Ireland. The UK have not been bailed out but considering the UK how's that poll tax going?

Pete_Cavan

20Cent wrote: »

Firstly we have been having "austerity" budgets since 2008 and things are getting worse. Was it Einstein who said doing the same thing expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Cutting does not necessarily mean a reduction in the deficit. Getting rid of SNA's or carers causes more problems/expense further down the road.

The bank bailout is costing us 70 - 100 billion.

Two months ago we repaid €200m in unsecured unguaranteed senior bondholders at Anglo. This is twice the planned savings from the closing of a&e services this year. (Source Namawinelake). Next September the Government will pay €706 million to unguaranteed, anonymous Anglo Irish Bank bondholders. Source Stephen Donnolly TD. (Enough to pay the SNA bill for 140 years).
10's of billions more are scheduled!!
http://thechatteringmagpie14.blogspot.com/

Anglo lied about their losses when the gurantee was made it should be null and void. Anglo lent money to people in order to artificially inflate its share price totally illegal. Money was put in overnight to boost the balance sheet for regulators. Anglo is a criminal enterprise and we are paying for it!!!!!!!!!

You think the Portugese, Spanish or Italians would put up with this? Like fcuk they would. They won't be paying out unsecured unguranteed bonds thats for sure. Paddy is expected to watch people die on trolleys and kids go without an education to pay for these debts which are private. If you or I invest in something and it goes bust tough luck thats capitalism. The ecb are blackmailing Ireland into paying the reckless lending of France and Germany to private banks in Ireland.

They want to cut the pay of someone earning 9.50 an hour. Is there any empirical evidence that this will increase jobs? Stephen Donnolly asked this in the Dail. Answer: no there is not.

2b taken from private sector pensions. What will this money be used for? Will it create more jobs. Answer: don't know.

Who are the bondholders? Have they already sold them at a discount? Are they insured? Have insurance companies paid out on them? Answer: Don't know.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/decisions-should-be-based-on-evidence-not-blind-faith-2811865.html

The Government hasn't done any sums or set any targets. And there is no list of bondholders. What is the rationale for some of the Government's biggest decisions? Is there proof they will help the situations. Answer: No.

We have a political scandal per week these days. Brazen Healy Rae, Calloly, Bertie etc etc ad anusium nothing gets done.

A few 100,000 + protests in the city would do.
You'd see the interest rate reduced and some burden sharing.
If the citizens make it clear we want transparencty and honsty from our representatives we will get it. If it is made clear that anyone not fighting for Ireland will not get re elected.
We need real political reform not bs about getting rid of 20 tds or a dress code!!
We need a to see some results in the investigation into anglo, it is dragging on throw more resources at it sort it out. Fix that stuff before going back to take more from the poor and vulnerable.

Waiting until the next election is not an option. Its self defence at this stage. Waiting for a protest that you agree with 100% will not happen, not going because the SWP will be there is not a excuse. There has been remarcably little trouble at any of these protests. Some big 100,000 + protests and you'd see things changing, untill then paddy is being used as a punchbag and taking it.

Fair enough, but in all his ranting about bailouts and Dail dress codes yesterday, did Richard Boyd-Barrett suggest where he would get the €20bn a year that he will need if he gave back the bailout money and reversed all the cuts? That is the issue I have with SWP, PBP, etc. they only highlight the problems but never have any solutions.

And please dont throw back the usual platitudes about "bending over and taking it" or the like, just answer the question - where do we get the money if we reject the bailout and dont pursue austerity?

20Cent

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Fair enough, but in all his ranting about bailouts and Dail dress codes yesterday, did Richard Boyd-Barrett suggest where he would get the €20bn a year that he will need if he gave back the bailout money and reversed all the cuts? That is the issue I have with SWP, PBP, etc. they only highlight the problems but never have any solutions.

And please dont throw back the usual platitudes about "bending over and taking it" or the like, just answer the question - where do we get the money if we reject the bailout and dont pursue austerity?

RBB is just one voice from many, default is inevitable we can have it structured or not, personally I'd prefer structured. We don't reject the bailout just change the conditions, reduce the rate and stop paying out for unguranteed unsecured debt to private investors. Austerity is defiantly needed but it needs to be fairly implemented, if we accept every cut without getting anything in return (more accountability transparency, justice re Anglo etc) then its useless. Its worse than useless its a mistake.

johnnyskeleton

namawinelake wrote: »

Hi djpbarry, sorry I didn't mean to suggest you did, but you do frequently hear the need for austerity - cuts and taxes - is to pay the salaries of gardai,nurses and teachers. That is true but the austerity is, in addition, needed to pay for the banks.

You also hear that the austerity is just to pay for the banks, or at least that is the implication. And that is just as untrue because even if there were no bank problems, we would need still need balance the budget after the fiscal collapse in 2008.

Unfortunately, you rarely hear no (3) that the deficit is to pay for the fact that we have a very narrow tax base, thrusting most of the tax burden onto middle class earners above average wage; overly generous social welfare payments that are completely unsustainable given the numbers unemployed and the scope for abuse and the massive increase in unnecessary bureacracy and quangos in the public sector.

If we ensured that everyone paid at least some small level of tax, dramatically cut welfare payments and fired a load of non-essential public sector staff and departments, this would have a greater impact IMO than making across the board cuts to PS pay which would include gardai, nurses etc.

But these are the sacred cows left by FF - don't tax the poor, don't touch social welfare and never fire a public servant.

rodento

After burning the bond holders, how do we keep the current level of services open or put back some money into the health service to keep the A&E's etc...

Cause lets be frank about it, the ECB will stop giving us money and the bond markets are priced out of our league

Its not as simple as we burn the bond holders and we suddenly have billions to throw around :rolleyes:

20Cent

rodento wrote: »

After burning the bond holders, how do we keep the current level of services open or put back some money into the health service to keep the A&E's etc...

Cause lets be frank about it, the ECB will stop giving us money and the bond markets are priced out of our league

Its not as simple as we burn the bond holders and we suddenly have billions to throw around :rolleyes:

Bond markets are already priced out of our league and will remain so while we try to pay off debts which are clearly unsustainable. No one says its simple :rolleyes:
Why do you think the ecb will top lending (not giving) us money? In such a case they will lose everything invested so far and end the euro. Not a likely scenario.

rodento

20Cent wrote: »

rodento wrote: »

After burning the bond holders, how do we keep the current level of services open or put back some money into the health service to keep the A&E's etc...

Cause lets be frank about it, the ECB will stop giving us money and the bond markets are priced out of our league

Its not as simple as we burn the bond holders and we suddenly have billions to throw around :rolleyes:

Bond markets are already priced out of our league and will remain so while we try to pay off debts which are clearly unsustainable. No one says its simple :rolleyes:
Why do you think the ecb will top lending (not giving) us money? In such a case they will lose everything invested so far and end the euro. Not a likely scenario.

Lets try and keep this simple

What would happen if we were to default tomorrow...

Could we afford to keep the banks, hospitals etc open??? Would we trigger the collapse of the Euro??? What would happen to all the companies using Ireland as an international base??? How would the world handle a mass European default??? Would we get a global recession????

Answers on a postcard please

old_aussie

Ah, The PIGS of the EU want to roll in their own mud hole all day.

Yet they want the farmer to turn off the water (to save money), so in the end there'll be no mud to roll in.

Dale Parish

Ireland be needing a Margaret Thatcher.

charlemont

Dale Parish wrote: »

Ireland be needing a Margaret Thatcher.

Mary Harney was close enough.

Denerick

I genuinely don't understand the protestor mentality. It seems their objectives are two fold:

1) Reject the international bailout

2) Reject all austerity and increase public spending.

You are essentially protesting against reality, which is why the crowds are always so pathetically small and why you will always be scoffed and laughed at by anyone with half a brain.

COYW

Denerick wrote: »

I genuinely don't understand the protestor mentality. It seems their objectives are two fold:

1) Reject the international bailout

2) Reject all austerity and increase public spending.

You are essentially protesting against reality, which is why the crowds are always so pathetically small and why you will always be scoffed and laughed at by anyone with half a brain.

I totally agree with you and I can't fathom why people voted for them in the first place. I mean we can't just sweep our economic woes under the carpet and the public finances are scandalously out of control no matter what way you look at things.