Air-to-water heat pump system... Daikin vs Polar Bear

outofsteam

Hi there,
We're building our new house at the moment and are really interested in the air-to-water systems available.
I've priced both Daikin and Polar Bear systems...
I'm just wondering which system would be best as I have no experience of either...
Thanks for reading

Outkast_IRE

Air to water ? Really ?
Look up the older threads here on it and you will get a good idea of peoples feelings on this , and dont listen to what salesmen tell you they will tell you what you want to hear.
All i would say is this , the colder it gets the less efficent they work , i know people with massive bills after the last 2 winter from them .

cavanmann

NEVER HEARD OF POLAR BEAR ,BUT THATS NOT TO SAY THERE NO GOOD ,BUT DAIKIN HAS BEEN ROUND FOR YEARS AND THERE AIR TO WATER PUMP IS INVERTER DRIVEN,WHICH AGAIN IS EVEN MORE EFFICIENT.

freddyuk

In the UK where renewables are heavily subsidised by HM government the renewable equipment (solar panels/ heat pumps/biomass boilers) need to be registered as MCS approved to receive any subsidy payments.
The latest list of approved technologies is published as the new RHI scheme has started which subsidises solar thermal, heat pump and Biomass systems.
Air to Water Heat Pumps will currently not receive any subsidies and are "non approved" until the efficiencies claimed are proved to be true and effective.
I guess you need to make up your own mind but this may help you decide if the UK government has got it wrong or there is some conspiracy going on.
I tend to go with the government on this one - a rare occurrence I admit.

cavanmann

The esb over here has approved the daikin inverter heat pump over here and we know who owns the the esb more confused I get every day about these systems

heinbloed

Agreed.
There should always be hard evidence on the capability of a HP, independant test results. Like for example from the test center in Buchs:

NTB Buchs / Institut für Energiesysteme IES: Prüfreglement

there you can click onto the bulletins

http://www.ntb.ch/ies/waermepumpen-testzentrum-wpz/wpz-bulletin.html?L=0

where test results are published.

Aquatech, the only company who sells "Polarbear" HPs, are giving them away for "absolutly free" as they say, and Buchs doesn't list them.
No company who gets their HPs tested there is forced to agree on publishing the test results in the www , many prefer to keep the results non-public.
But the real McCoy - the branded product- should be there, unless it's total crap.
So ask for the test results, of both machines.

The German goverment anounced this week that the demand on a minimum COP of HPs accepted for subsidised renovation projects have been reduced, the former more stringent COPs demanded by law can't be met by most manufacturers.....and those who fullfilled the demands will never see an amortisation unless they are replacing direct electric heating. Due to the high price and and ongoing costs.
Although these former more stringent German COPs made sense.

A good HP is expensive. Certainly not for "absolutly free".

outofsteam

heinbloed wrote: »

So ask for the test results, of both machines.

I've looked at that link and it didn't make and sense to me as it was in German... Thanks anyway though...
Should suppliers of these machines be able to provide test results?

freddyuk

outofsteam wrote: »

I've looked at that link and it didn't make and sense to me as it was in German... Thanks anyway though...
Should suppliers of these machines be able to provide test results?

Of course they should. They are taking your money for a unit that is supposed to save you money over the long term and reduce your fossil fuel energy demands and provide the required heating performance. The payback time is critical to you. If they can provide complete unequivocal evidence that the unit performs to spec. during a Winter with -10c temperatures then it is probably a good unit. Trouble is I do not think there are many (if any) units that perform well at those temperatures so will the high cost of electricity usage in the Winter, to compensate for a mediocre unit, be recouped in the summer when your energy requirements are so much less. I certainly would not rely on the manufacturers salesman view on that without real scientific evidence.
A few posters here can provide you with real data if they want to.

heinbloed

Here are some infos in English about the EN test methods:

http://www.ntb.ch/ies/competences/heat-pump-test-center-wpz.html?L=1

as well as some reports:

http://www.ntb.ch/fileadmin/Institute/IES/pdf/PruefResLW110620_Eng.pdf

and

http://www.ntb.ch/fileadmin/Institute/IES/pdf/PruefResWEW130508_Eng.pdf

You could e-mail Buchs and ask them where to find the results of a particular HP.


There are more reports published by Buchs, in French and German, the symbols (IS symbols = international standard) of the the foreign language pdf data sheets are the same as in the English reports.
There are more test centers who do tests. As long as EN 14511 is adhered to and the test lab is acredited the results should be compareable.

Note these test are done with machines send in by the manufacturers,importers. Not with machines bought incognito.

Only the HPs themself are tested, aditional energy consumers like brine pumps, circulation pumps and room controls are not included.Losses/inefficiencies from heat exchangers (for example via the thermal storage tank) are not included as well.

If you can find your HPs data and need a translation let me know.


A sample of a thermal HP system which is capeable to heat an entire building all year round without having to rely on back-up (max. flow temperature 35 degrees Celsius!) can be seen here:

http://www.consolar.de/index.php?id=94&L=1

B1rds

outofsteam wrote: »

Hi there,
We're building our new house at the moment and are really interested in the air-to-water systems available.
I've priced both Daikin and Polar Bear systems...
I'm just wondering which system would be best as I have no experience of either...
Thanks for reading

Hi I was just wondering which way you went in the end did you go with the Daikin or Polar Bear as I am in the same position, there is 4 k in the difference in the prices

adidas45

check this out <Snip>

KoolKid

adidas45 Please read the forum charter before posting here again.
It would also be a good idea to read over Boards.ie rules in general.
A new account pimping a business is not acceptable here.

pd1971

hi i am also in wondering what to do we have a house half built and am putting in underfloor heating but what do i run it with
anybody know the running costs of the air to water sys and how it rates against oil,have solar pannels up ready to go
would like to here from peope who run both and running costs
oh what to do any help welcome
thanks for reading

TPM

The design of the underfloor heating system will be a major factor, make sure it is designed to run with a heat pump if you have any intention to use one.

Every system s different, I have seen the same heat pump (oil boilers too actually) give extremely different running costs on heating systems that initially looked similar, for that reason it is very difficult to compare running costs.

Im sure you have heard this time and time again but there really is no substitute for insulation

Toys Out Of The Pram

anybody any more info on these pumps all I can find is that the polar bear unit is actually a PHINX unit (SEAI pdf of registered heat pumps and suppliers) and after furhter investiagtion I find that they are made by said company in china.

Does this mean its a case of pay for what you get or or they a good unit?

google it phinx you'll find their site