Training query; progressive pace run - Good or bad?

Itziger

Folks, I have done this off the top of me head run on a couple of occasions, but I'd like to know if it's a good idea or not.

Last night for example I started at 4.5x pace per km for one k then every following k I took 10 secs off, so 4.4x, 4.3x, 4.2x till I got to 3.4x and that was that!! Cooled down for 2 kms after. Any thoughts on this as a workout?

It feels good but I don't know if it is good. I'm three months off a marathon where I'll be aiming for 3.15 or so.

TFBubendorfer

I like progression runs, they do have their place in training.

macinalli

We do a similar style run every week in our training and I think it's great. My only comment would be that you're probably going too fast at the end. McMillan says that 3.15 translates to 20 for 5k and a 41.30 for 10k. My running group (who are very experienced) say that you shouldn't go faster than your 10k pace on this run - so in your case it would be build to 4.0x and then hold that pace. Speed should come from other sessions (fartlek, intervals etc); this training run is about being able to hold a reasonably fast pace. The other danger is that by going too hard, you're impacting on your other training sessions which means you're not getting as much as you can out of them. My €0.02.

Gringo78

Itziger wrote: »

Folks, I have done this off the top of me head run on a couple of occasions, but I'd like to know if it's a good idea or not.

Last night for example I started at 4.5x pace per km for one k then every following k I took 10 secs off, so 4.4x, 4.3x, 4.2x till I got to 3.4x and that was that!! Cooled down for 2 kms after. Any thoughts on this as a workout?

It feels good but I don't know if it is good. I'm three months off a marathon where I'll be aiming for 3.15 or so.

Hard to judge this session without knowing what your race paces are. Going off a 3:15 marathon target (4:40 per km), you are starting the run off at close to marathon pace, then building it up each km to what would be 3km race pace for a 3:15 marathoner. So for your marathon target, your progression run has you starting off close to marathon pace and then actually running the last 5km (before the warmdown) at close to what would be your projected PB for 5km for a 3:15 marathoner.

Running a 5km at race pace in training is generally not a recommended training technique. progression runs are normally done around marathon pace up to max 10k pace which for a 3:15 marathoner would be starting off at maybe 5:00 per km working up to 4:10 per km. At faster than 10k pace its better to do the run in intervals with recovery's.

What is your 5km race pace do you think? I based all the above on a 3:15 marathon which may be a soft target for you based on shorter race distances.

Edit: Just see macanalli's post above now - basically same as what he said

Itziger

Gringo78 wrote: »

Hard to judge this session without knowing what your race paces are. Going off a 3:15 marathon target (4:40 per km), you are starting the run off at close to marathon pace, then building it up each km to what would be 3km race pace for a 3:15 marathoner. So for your marathon target, your progression run has you starting off close to marathon pace and then actually running the last 5km (before the warmdown) at close to what would be your projected PB for 5km for a 3:15 marathoner.

Running a 5km at race pace in training is generally not a recommended training technique. progression runs are normally done around marathon pace up to max 10k pace which for a 3:15 marathoner would be starting off at maybe 5:00 per km working up to 4:10 per km. At faster than 10k pace its better to do the run in intervals with recovery's.

What is your 5km race pace do you think? I based all the above on a 3:15 marathon which may be a soft target for you based on shorter race distances.

Edit: Just see macanalli's post above now - basically same as what he said

Thanks lads, interesting responses so far. What I was looking for basically. Thing is, I've never done a 5 k race but I've time trialled myself in training and I can hold 3.50 for the 5 (just!). I've only done two 10kms and my pb is 39.40. Half marathon pb is 1.28 but my one and only full was a bit of a disaster. Bad cramps in last 6/8 kms gave me a 3.32 in Rotterdam this year.

Krusty_Clown

I found this style of running to be very good for long runs (18-22 miles) and really helped maintain and pick up the pace in the latter parts of the marathon.
I did in blocks of 5 miles, so it would look something like:
5 miles @7:30/mile
5 Miles @7:15/mile
5 Miles @7:00/mile
3 Miles @6:30/mile
2 Miles ~@6:10/mile (PMP - half marathon pace)
Warm-down.

Because most of the run is around LSR pace, the run isn't too strenuous, and the pick up at the end teaches the body to speed-up instead of slowing down towards the end of the marathon. The discipline in the early part of the run keeps you nice and fresh for the later part of the run, where otherwise you might try and run the entire run too fast. Probably not something you want to do too often if you're not used to long-runs (in other words it helps if you have a good endurance base already).

n-dawg

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I found this style of running to be very good for long runs (18-22 miles) and really helped maintain and pick up the pace in the latter parts of the marathon.
I did in blocks of 5 miles, so it would look something like:
5 miles @7:30/mile
5 Miles @7:15/mile
5 Miles @7:00/mile
3 Miles @6:30/mile
2 Miles ~@6:10/mile (PMP - half marathon pace)
Warm-down.

Because most of the run is around LSR pace, the run isn't too strenuous, and the pick up at the end teaches the body to speed-up instead of slowing down towards the end of the marathon. The discipline in the early part of the run keeps you nice and fresh for the later part of the run, where otherwise you might try and run the entire run too fast. Probably not something you want to do too often if you're not used to long-runs (in other words it helps if you have a good endurance base already).

Krusty you have almost perfectly discribed my key marathon training run. I would do this run 3-4 times (once every 10 days) in the 2 months before a marathon.

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I found this style of running to be very good for long runs (18-22 miles) and really helped maintain and pick up the pace in the latter parts of the marathon.
I did in blocks of 5 miles, so it would look something like:
5 miles @7:30/mile
5 Miles @7:15/mile
5 Miles @7:00/mile
3 Miles @6:30/mile
2 Miles ~@6:10/mile (PMP - half marathon pace)
Warm-down.

Because most of the run is around LSR pace, the run isn't too strenuous, and the pick up at the end teaches the body to speed-up instead of slowing down towards the end of the marathon. The discipline in the early part of the run keeps you nice and fresh for the later part of the run, where otherwise you might try and run the entire run too fast. Probably not something you want to do too often if you're not used to long-runs (in other words it helps if you have a good endurance base already).

That sounds like a fair workout right there. What I am seeing is that in my last preparation when I wasn't really following any plan, I did a lot of long stuff at a flat pace. Neither easy nor hard. Whereas this workout described here is a tough mofo. I hope to try something along these lines or the P&D schedule this time around.

BeepBeep67

I have a progression run in my schedule during the current block I'm doing.
It's basically:
Easy, Easy+, Steady, Threshold, Steady is the basis for the calculation and it's PMP (Planned Marathon Pace), with Easy being +16%, Easy+ being +8% and Steady -7% so for me that's 7:55, 7:19, 6:48, 6:19.
First session was 2+2+2+2 and second session 3+3+3+1.