Do girls tend to be considered butch if they play male dominated sports?

Lynn Malone

I'm an avid Rugby player and I do a lot of strength training in the gym for the position I play (forward, a main tackler). I find it offensive when people comment negatively on my femininity. Is it just me, or is there a general idea that if a girl does a certain sport like bodybuilding, weight lifting, boxing, rugby etc. and show masculine traits i.e. muscle mass, roughness etc. they tend to get stereotyped as butch or mannish.
I’m passionate about my sport and that’s what motivates me personally, so I wouldn’t dream of giving it up due to silly comments. However, I do find myself sometimes worrying about if I look feminine enough or if I look too much like a tomboy because of what people might say. Is there anyone else who feels the same? And if so what motivates you to continue to play your sport?

Raze_them_all

Lynn Malone wrote: »

I'm an avid Rugby player and I do a lot of strength training in the gym for the position I play (forward, a main tackler). I find it offensive when people comment negatively on my femininity. Is it just me, or is there a general idea that if a girl does a certain sport like bodybuilding, weight lifting, boxing, rugby etc. and show masculine traits i.e. muscle mass, roughness etc. they tend to get stereotyped as butch or mannish.
I’m passionate about my sport and that’s what motivates me personally, so I wouldn’t dream of giving it up due to silly comments. However, I do find myself sometimes worrying about if I look feminine enough or if I look too much like a tomboy because of what people might say. Is there anyone else who feels the same? And if so what motivates you to continue to play your sport?

From a guys point of view, big female forwards I would consider butch, I consider body builders just wrong looking, male or female,weight lifting no, more women actually need to do weights, as for combat sports no, doesn't make you butch, just look at kyra gracie, gina Carano, even Irelands own Katie Taylor.

Though if a woman acts rough and what not they'll get classed as mannish the same way i consider emo guys to be fairly girly

syklops

Katie Taylor - boxer, footballer


Nothing butch about that.

Generally though, girls tend to be considered 'butch' if they look 'butch'. God I hate that word!

Its not to do with what they do/play it is once again how they look. That said, many women dont understand the benefits of weight training, thinking they are going to turn into an Arnie look-alike.

I said to a female friend recently who is trying to lose weight, she should do some weights. She basically laughed at me, and then told me of her concern that she would get big arms. She seemed to be over-estimating how much work you need to do to get big arms, and under-estimating the weight-loss benefits.

jaffacakesyum

I (and most people I'd imagine) wouldn't consider someone butch simply because they play rugby or do boxing, weight lifting etc.

To be honest, it's how a woman looks and acts that in my mind makes them butch or not. I know girls who play rugby, soccer, do weights etc. and they're actually some of the most feminine, beautiful looking girls!

I think anyone who calls you butch simply because of the sports you play is just being immature

g'em

Lynn Malone wrote: »

Is it just me, or is there a general idea that if a girl does a certain sport like bodybuilding, weight lifting, boxing, rugby etc. and show masculine traits i.e. muscle mass, roughness etc. they tend to get stereotyped as butch or mannish.

In my experience, yes, very much so. I started powerlifting in 2005 and then crossed over into weightlifting in 2007 and that's been my primary sport since then (although I haven't competed in about six months or so). People who know me in RL wouldn't classify me as butch at all, but people who haven't met me and only know me from the internet very often assume that because of my sport I must look quite masculine and big and bulky. It never ceases to amuse me when people say "well you don't look how I thought you would".

I've also trained alongside a lot of the Irish Women's rugby team, and you'd be hard pushed to find one of them who could validly be classified as butch. In fact most of them have incredible figures that a lot of girls would kill to have, and these girls are some of the strongest and toughest ladies I know.

But nonetheless the perception that any sport that involves strength or lifting will invariably lead to a woman becoming very manly looking and overly muscular persists - a while back I started a thread in this forum looking for people's opinions on women and weightlifting which by and large confirmed my fears on this.

El_Drago

Following a discussion with someone on the topic of females and muscles,I came across this interesting article http://gubernatrix.co.uk/2010/07/femininity-and-muscle/ As the web address suggests,it pretty much clears up common misconceptions about femininity and muscle.

Lynn Malone

those links are great!!

Stheno

I used play Rugby for a couple of years, second row.

I wasn't terribly "big" at the time, more tall and strong, and people were usually surprised I did play rugby.

I have come across an attitude of guys being surprised that women played rugby and still do. More even that women would be interested in such a sport and follow it.

You could expand it out further, today in work we were discussing having a punt on the golf at the weekend, and some of the guys appeared surprised that I even knew some of the potential top sixers ( I don't play golf, but like watching it)

Logical Fallacy

I've known ladies who have done many sports, from rugby to soccer, forms of weightlifting to combat sports. I would honestly say in 99% of those cases they looked incredible because of their sporting efforts. (the only person i am conciously knocking off the "looked incredible" part is one girl who never managed to tie up the diet end of her routine so end up looking the same at the end of the process as she did at the start).

The only people who instantly think a woman who enjoys sports or does weights would look like a man are people who have no idea of what it takes to add serious muscle to your frame.

I would go out on a limb and say that anyone who dedicates themselves to pursuing their sport in a healthy and natural way, be they male or female, will only ever look better for their efforts.

pickarooney

I would automatically assume any man that played as a rugby forward was butch so, without knowing much about the ladies' game I would hold the same assumption.

'Female bodybuilder' is just impossible for me to dissociate from 'butch' and 'unfeminine (google image it, for starters).

The cold-war-era lady weightlifters of the Eastern Bloc for years coloured my perception of this category of athletes but having seen more recent examples this is no longer really the case.

Most other sports - no. You get a good mix of butch and feminine in tennis for example and Serena Williams is a good example of someone who is both in equal measure.

Bottle_of_Smoke

pickarooney wrote: »

'Female bodybuilder' is just impossible for me to dissociate from 'butch' and 'unfeminine (google image it, for starters).

Oh yeah. Google - that scientifically sound method of finding information. Especially the image search.

pickarooney

I never said it was scientifically sound, just an assumption. But you don't seem to understand the difference between weightlifting and bodybuilding.

jugger0

When i found out my rugby club had a womans team i assumed they were giant butch lesbians, i was only 16 so didnt know any better! when i actually saw them at training i was very suprised, they were really petite girly girls, nothing manly about them.

Honestly a woman who plays a sport is a massive plus, me and my friends are always talking about this very subject, women need to be more active, unfortunately the majority of girls i know are lazy alcoholics! which is a shame:( i would kill for an athletic girlfriend(some of them crossfit ladies... damn!)

Also where do you play in the pack? im guessing 6 or 7? its great craic flattening people isnt it!

Ps all women should do squats

Wibbs

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Oh yeah. Google - that scientifically sound method of finding information. Especially the image search.

To be fair to pickarooney B, it's easy to be all "I'm better informed you know" about it, but a good chunk of men out there would have similar perceptions he described. If not most men. And women. Go to any generic gym and watch the size of weights most women will use. Tiny, because they're convinced they'll turn into the hulk. The image in their head is of steroid freaks*. You say the words "female bodybuilder" and the vast majority will think of that image. Hey they'll think similar if a little less so of the male bodybuilder. And as pickarooney pointed out the images of bodybuilding and weightlifting often get conflated in people's heads. G'em who does the latter has described the perceptions she's gotten.









*for me they would be freaks. Incredibly focused and hard working freaks, but freaks nonetheless.

Gandalph

Different guys have different views of butch, most the time anything bigger/stronger than them is butch. There is nothing more sexy than a fit female athlete, Iv even seen fine hammer/shot putt throwers in athletics and they are suppose to be the "butchest" people going.

Wibbs

Gandalph wrote: »

Different guys have different views of butch,

+1 I'd throw in some of the ladies perceptions as well.

most the time anything bigger/stronger than them is butch.

Yep. Very much so. Meh I came to terms with the fact that a lot of women are stronger than me long ago so...

Speaking personally? I'd say some of the distance event women can be more "butch" to my eye. Of course like anything else it depends on how intense they are about it, but if they're already low in body fat to start with, they can get that hollow cheeked no hips sinewy look which looks a lot less "feminine" and more boyish to me than say powerlifting women. And in that case it's not to do with how much stronger they are compared to me.

Lynn Malone

jugger0 wrote: »

Also where do you play in the pack? im guessing 6 or 7? its great craic flattening people isnt it!

Ps all women should do squats

I play 2nd row No.4. but I'm only 5'6" and 10 and half stone so not the usual 2nd row body type.

Eh why should all women do squats?? :P

rainbow kirby

Wibbs wrote: »

Speaking personally? I'd say some of the distance event women can be more "butch" to my eye.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that - I certainly wouldn't describe Chrissie Wellington, Paula Radcliffe or Kara Goucher as butch at all. Maybe my perspective on "butchness" is different to yours :pac:

Lynn Malone wrote: »

Eh why should all women do squats?? :P

They're a great compound movement for engaging a lot of the lower body at once, and should be part of anyone's lifting routine.

Wibbs

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that - I certainly wouldn't describe Chrissie Wellington, Paula Radcliffe or Kara Goucher as butch at all. Maybe my perspective on "butchness" is different to yours :pac:

but yea they would be good examples of how personally I'd see as more "butch". A magnitude moreso than I would a woman weightlifter, non roided up bodybuilder or rugby player. I think it's two things, the very low body fat matched with a very boyish bodyshape of narrow hips, no waist(ideal for running). It triggers a "skinny male" response in me(and bear in mind I like thin women). Indeed I reckon if you lined up long distance male runners and your examples, gave both the tops to wear and covered their faces I think you would be hard enough pressed figuring the gender going on the body shape. You'd have pretty much zero problems doing so with say weightlifters.

That said I'm just saying on purely the physical. EG Paula Radcliffe comes across as very sound in interviews and attractive to boot.

I suppose I'm speaking a little from experience here. An ex of mine who had "the Perfect Body" tm as far as what most would seemingly aspire to got into triathalons and became very driven about it. That impressed me and I was very proud of her progress and how it made her happy, but a year of heavy training and I have to admit I did find her less physically attractive in the objective sense. Subjectively I loved her so she could have been a head in a jar and I would have still loved and been attracted to her, but love aside, no. Or put it another way if I had first met her like that I may not have been attracted to her(not a reason for our split). Shallow Hal is me I guess.

Black Swan

Lads may not know or acknowledge "all the faces of Eve?" We are complex and unique individuals, that often assume many roles in our daily lives. That's where a simple "Butch" categorization fails to measure the full extent of what we are.

I would imagine that lads that only experience me as a martial arts instructor in a belted debok without make-up three days per week, sweating with the best of them, and occasionally yelling at them to "Hit the mat and give me 50!" for failing to perform, may label me "Butch" (or another B-word); while yet a different set of lads that encounter me dressed-to-kill in pub, club, or java house may have a very different impression and associated label.

jugger0

Lynn Malone wrote: »

I play 2nd row No.4. but I'm only 5'6" and 10 and half stone so not the usual 2nd row body type.

Eh why should all women do squats?? :P

I played second row too! i was only 6 foot and always the shortest second row on the field, then prop,flanker,center and back to the backrow again, the backs have it awful easy!

Ah squats are great for increasing athletic ability sure... also the squat booty is a massive plus;)

Lynn Malone

jugger0 wrote: »

I played second row too! i was only 6 foot and always the shortest second row on the field, then prop,flanker,center and back to the backrow again, the backs have it awful easy!

Played 6 for a day and just happened to fracture my scapula (shoulder blade) but I'm trained up as sub-hooker. Coach prefers that I stay 2nd row though and so do I ta be honest.

Lynn Malone

Kristin Wilde in her study of Women in Sport: Gender Stereotypes in the Past and Present, found that the participants questioned “made three distinct identifications: 1) that their status in athletics is secondary to that of men, 2) that women’s sport “doesn’t really matter”, and 3) that societal perceptions of women athletes were stereotyped as being “lesbian”, “butch”, “tomboy”, or “masculine” (p. 121). Eh so no wonder some of us have image worries.
Although she did also find that "the majority of the 7 participants also stated that: 1) they believe women athletes are beginning to be viewed more positively (especially as women athletes improve, develop to a higher level, and increase in number), 2) their participation in sports did challenge society’s perception and acceptance of women in sport, and 3) they tended to dissociate themselves from feminism and gender issues because of the negative perceptions society associates with the terms”. So would the mere changeling of societies perceptions be a good reason for motivation?

g'em

Lynn Malone wrote: »

the majority of the 7 participants

7 participants?? Really?? Feic that, it's not a proper sample size at all :pac:

Lynn I just Googled that - it's coming up as just an essay on-line for me, is it actually a peer-reviewed paper or just an opinion piece?

Lynn Malone

My bad, it is an essay by her but the information/ quotes that I ref'd that she used, is one of two small scaled study by McClung, L. and Blinde, E. (2002). Sensitivity to gender issues: Accounts of women intercollegiate athletes. International Sports Journal, winter, 117-133 that she has referenced.
Nonetheless her essay does seem to explain some of the issues I brought up in my rugby image thing.

Saila

no not at all, only if they look butch, which has nothing to do with the sport they play, actually swimmers, they look butch, they usually have big wide shoulders and rediculously tall, a turn off for me, but thats what helps make them good swimmers.

Had to laugh though to myself when a girl I was in college with years ago said she was worried about getting big muscly horrible legs if she cycled the 2km to college everyday!

at the time I was doing intense training 300km a week was strong and lean v low body fat [intentional] but well toned cyclist, she had a zero chance of even beginning to look like me but still worried a meagre 2km leisurely cycle would buff her legs up

Lynn Malone

Saila wrote: »

no not at all, only if they look butch, which has nothing to do with the sport they play, actually swimmers, they look butch, they usually have big wide shoulders and rediculously tall, a turn off for me, but thats what helps make them good swimmers.

But why is there this unconscious stereotype that if a girl is overly tall, has big shoulders, no hips, muscular etc that she is 'butch'. 'Butch' is usually a term used to describe a lesbian who has very masculine traits (again a stereotype that is unfairly seen as negative). With referring to butch as a negative image related to lesbianism it in turn creates two different negative ripples. Firstly, it ensues an if not conscious but unconscious negative attitude towards lesbians. therefore secondly creating a fear in heterosexual women of being called 'butch'/lesbian. Snowballing from this I believe that women are pressured into highlighting their femininity just to avoid assumption's and remarks. While on the other hand to be 'butch' is part of some lesbians identity, baring also in mind that more than often identity is a complex issue in the gay world as it involves personal and social acceptance. I think that if I found people were using something (that I identified as part of my identity), as a negative connotation/stereotype it would most certainly create an inner confusion and discomfort. stereotyping is such a terrible thing but we seem unable to function without them
just my 2c

The Sweeper

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Oh yeah. Google - that scientifically sound method of finding information. Especially the image search.

[your pics with 'what women think that happens when they lift weights']
[your opposing pic with 'what actually happens']

Eh, now in fairness Ted, I think that should be edited to read:

"What women think that happens when they lift weights"

and then

"What men think happens when women lift weights, but what actually only happens if the women in question are already genetically blessed, and also have gone under a general anaesthetic in a surgical operating theatre while a surgeon cuts their nipples off, then makes an opening in their breast tissue to implant a saline or silicone implant, and then sews their nipples back on in an aesthetically appropriate place, so that their minimal bodyfat which should be reflected in pert but proportionate breasts doesn't impact on the pneumatic falsies they have in these pictures. Oh - and the gazillions that went on the fake tanning spray, the waxing, the nail technician, the hairdresser, the photographer and the photoshopping software."

Logical Fallacy

The Sweeper wrote: »

Eh, now in fairness Ted, I think that should be edited to read:

"What women think that happens when they lift weights"

and then

"What men think happens when women lift weights, but what actually only happens if the women in question are already genetically blessed, and also have gone under a general anaesthetic in a surgical operating theatre while a surgeon cuts their nipples off, then makes an opening in their breast tissue to implant a saline or silicone implant, and then sews their nipples back on in an aesthetically appropriate place, so that their minimal bodyfat which should be reflected in pert but proportionate breasts doesn't impact on the pneumatic falsies they have in these pictures. Oh - and the gazillions that went on the fake tanning spray, the waxing, the nail technician, the hairdresser, the photographer and the photoshopping software."

Maybe the first pic, but not the second. The vast majority of women could achieve such a look with dedication. (The lady in the black outfit photographed outside).

Wibbs

Lynn Malone wrote: »

But why is there this unconscious stereotype that if a girl is overly tall, has big shoulders, no hips, muscular etc that she is 'butch'.

Like you said it's subconscious(mostly) but it's there. Why? That old reliable called biology. More to the point differences in gender reproductive biology expressed as outward appearance. Big shoulders, no hips and muscular triggers "male" in the viewer. Lack of them and the additions of higher body fat, small waist, bigger hips, less muscular triggers "female" in the viewer. Just as if you found a man with an "hourglass figure" the signal would be female. Both have a foundation in reproductive(and other) adaptations. Extra testosterone in the male triggers bone and muscle growth. Jawline gets more robust, shoulders widen, hips narrow, more body hair etc. In the woman the various female hormones trigger laying down of more subcutaneous fat, wider hips, growth of breasts, bone growth in the jaw remains more "juvenile". These are very strong and deep signals for us. They go across culture too. The famous one about the hip to waist ratio in women that's considered attractive, regardless of culture or time(or weight of the woman).

as a negative connotation/stereotype it would most certainly create an inner confusion and discomfort. stereotyping is such a terrible thing but we seem unable to function without them

I agree there. I'd add though that what people may say are stereotypes they can be expressions of cultural solidarity, but subjectively and personally they may not hold such prejudices. Good example would be the notion that "thin is in" and you'll find men who vocally agree with this notion, but are happy to be in relationships with women who aren't thin. I'd say similar about "butch" descriptions. Humans are a funny bunch.

Latchy

I enjoy watching women competing on the Olympic racetrack and other sports including womens soccer for their skills and athleticism as much as anything else .

Laisurg

I doubt anyone would see you as being ''butch'' purely for playing rugby and weightlifting, and if they do they're just ignorant anyway.
I think it's mostly appearance really so if you're afraid of looking butch just try not to put on that much muscle.

the_syco

Lynn Malone wrote: »

I'm an avid Rugby player and I do a lot of strength training in the gym for the position I play (forward, a main tackler). I find it offensive when people comment negatively on my femininity.

I'd say people who call women who do sports "butch" probably also think that a womans place is in the kitchen :pac:

syklops wrote: »

Generally though, girls tend to be considered 'butch' if they look 'butch'. God I hate that word!

Agreed. If I was going to think of someone being "butch", I wouldn't really care what sports/hobbies/etc she had. Most women who I know that do sports are often very easy on the eye.