Powerlifting training - beginner

caterpillar101

I was hoping for a bit of help with my program from the experienced lifters on here. I joined my local sports club a few weeks ago, with the distant hope of competing in powerlifting some time in the future.

I'm very much a beginner - been focussing on technique and form - squatting 17.5kg, benching 18kg and deadlifting 45kg (all weights including the bar).
I'm female, almost 30, height 1,63, weight 62kg, want to get fitter, stronger and leaner. In addition to 3 weights sessions a week, I do 3 cardio classes (aerobics, samba and hip-hop) and sometimes a 40 minute run.

My trainer gave me a starter program, but said I can add in "my favourite exercises" as well if I like. Want to be spending about 90 mins in the gym. Program looks as follows:

DAY 1
Squats: 4 X 10
Machine leg extensions: 3 X 10
Bench press: 4 X 10
Incline DB press: 3 X 10
Deadlift: 4 X 10
Hyperextensions: 3 X 10


DAY 2
Front Squats: 4 X 10
Calf raises: 3 X 10
Narrow grip bench press: 4 X 10
DB Pullovers: 3 X 10
Deadlift: 4 X 10
Good mornings: 3 X 10


DAY 3
Squats: 4 X 10
Machine leg curls: 3 X 10
Bench press: 4 X 10
DB fly: 3 X 10
Deadlift: 4 X 10
Bentover row: 3 X 10

What would be the best exercises to add in with this? I dont do well "just adding in" exercises - I like to know that what I'm doing is giving me the most efficient workout.

• Obviously some core work (have been doing russian twists, plank, prone cobra, ab rollouts, incline crunch, machine crunch - not all in same session).
  What would be the most efficient? Need to strengthen my stomach muscles.
• Have also been adding on step-ups, split squats, weighed bridging, DB push press, military press, assisted pull ups (basically using Rachel Cosgrove's plan). I feel like my sessions aren't balanced enough though, and I'm not progressing as much as I'd like with the main 3 exercises. Perhaps there are other suggestions of what to add on?
• Have been ending each session with a HIIT block (8 mins, 4 X 4 Tabata protocol) of skipping, KB swings, jump squats, situps, push ups (from knees). Should I be doing more of this, i.e. longer blocks?

Unfortunately my SI joint hasnt been too happy with me for the past week so I've had to cut back on everything, but I thought I'd use the opportunity to revamp my program.

Thanks for your help!

Hanley

If you want to powerlift, your training is a complete clusterf*ck.

All the additional cardio and ending sessions with HIIT will hurt your recovery. The structure of your sessions is pretty poor - why are you doing flys, leg extensions and high rep DLs at the end of your session?

It’s not a case of just adding stuff in and hoping for the best. If you wanted to perform as optimally as possible, your training would require a complete overhaul.

But that being said, if you want to get fit and in shape, and just do a bit of powerlifting, then it’s not so bad.

And your SI is sore because of something you’re doing. May be related to glute tightness/inability to recruit or tight hip flexors. It’s a product of your training so you need to be mobility and activation work to fix it and prevent it from happening again.

And is this the first time you’ve started training with weights? (or at least the first time in recent years?)

gymfreak

Hey caterpillar101,
I'm delighted to hear of your interest in powerlifting:) I am very much a beginner myself, so really of little to no help but I thought I'd chime in just to say that if ya listen to the advice on boards you'll do well.

I started my fitness log less than a year ago and in two weeks will be entering my first competition...much to the annoyance of everyone else, cos they'll have to listen to me when I become a nervous wreck:o:P I think starting up a log would be a good idea for you because people will be able to check in and give you advice as things pop up and also be able to steer you back on track.

I'm gonna leave it to the knowledgable ones to comment on your programme..but what I will say is, it looks far too busy. Kinda looks like a load of exercises thrown together. Your also deadlifting 3x a week..that will become pretty unmanageable when it starts getting anyway heavy or if DOMS starts hitting in...same with the squats. There also seems to be an overemphasis on pressing movements with relatively little emphasis on pulling motions...ie building up your chest and not your back..which is already a problem that most people have.

I think if your looking for a beginner program...the simplier the better. Personally, I think you need to get strong enough to be able to do full pushups and pullups before you do all those varieties of pressing movements. What's the point in being able to do them if ya can't move your own bodyweight...just a personal take.

That's just my opinion but,..I'll leave it to the knowledgable folk. And I'm sure Hanley will chime in with some good advice. He's helped me alot along the way:)

EDIT: Hanley bet me to it

caterpillar101

Thanks for the replies.

I've trained with weights before, but mainly machines. For the past 4 months I've been using free weights, but I only started with deep squats, deadlifts, bench 3 weeks ago.

I'm doing flys, leg extensions and high rep DLs (with relatively little weight) at the end of my session because that's what my trainer told me to do. This program should be for the first 6 weeks or so. I assume then that it will be adjusted accordingly.

"It’s not a case of just adding stuff in and hoping for the best." Exactly - that's why I asked for advice

Re. SI: I felt something twinge during deadlifts last week. I wasnt activating the glutes enough, was using my back too much. I've been given some stretches and exercises to do for it. It's been a week though now and I'm still in quite a bit of pain.

Hanley

caterpillar101 wrote: »

I'm doing flys, leg extensions and high rep DLs (with relatively little weight) at the end of my session because that's what my trainer told me to do. This program should be for the first 6 weeks or so. I assume then that it will be adjusted accordingly.

Well... yeah I know that. But I more meant why does he have you doing them?! Leg extensions really have no place in a strength program unless you're trying to wreck your knees. I could see SOME argument for flys, but the time is better spent elsewhere. And high rep DLs won't really achieve anything other than DOMS and impeeded recovery.

"It’s not a case of just adding stuff in and hoping for the best." Exactly - that's why I asked for advice

My advice would be that nothing you add to that program will help in your powerlifting journey. In fact i think you need to take stuff away.

Re. SI: I felt something twinge during deadlifts last week. I wasnt activating the glutes enough, was using my back too much. I've been given some stretches and exercises to do for it. It's been a week though now and I'm still in quite a bit of pain.

SI injuries are a pain the a$$ (wahey!). It won't go away in a week, especially if you're still hitting your back with as much volume as your are in the sessions. Tbh, I'd say all the high rep lower back work is what probably cuased it. The issue would have been there anyway (your glutes) but when you started placing such high demands on your lower back it probably just couldn't handle it anymore.

caterpillar101

Hanley wrote: »

But I more meant why does he have you doing them?! Leg extensions really have no place in a strength program unless you're trying to wreck your knees.

Leg extensions to strengthen the quads, Leg curls for the hamstrings.

Hanley wrote: »

I could see SOME argument for flys, but the time is better spent elsewhere.

Like?

Hanley wrote: »

And high rep DLs won't really achieve anything other than DOMS and impeeded recovery.

Would you recommend lower reps with higher weight?

Hanley wrote: »

My advice would be that nothing you add to that program will help in your powerlifting journey. In fact i think you need to take stuff away.

What would you strip it down to?
Bear in mind that I want to get stronger, fitter and leaner, and in the future hopefully lift competitively, when I am stronger, fitter and leaner :-) Can I do both at the same time? Start training for powerlifting to reach the other goals?

Hanley wrote: »

SI injuries are a pain the a$$ (wahey!). It won't go away in a week, especially if you're still hitting your back with as much volume as your are in the sessions.

I havent squatted, benched or deadlifted since I hurt it. In fact, all I did was a supervised session using machines on Sunday. It's driving me mad though - any suggestions of what else I can do til it clears up? Bike? Not a big swimmer.

@ Gymfreak: Pushups and pullups - noted. Pullups as opposed to chinups? Negatives or assisted better to build up to full ones?
Oh, and I've been reading your log for inspiration :-)

Thanks for the advice.

d'Oracle

caterpillar101 wrote: »

Leg extensions to strengthen the quads, Leg curls for the hamstrings.

I'm not being a dick here, but Hanley has significant experience and success in the sport. If he suggests that the leg extensions are a bad idea, you should take that on board..

G86

caterpillar101 wrote: »

Bear in mind that I want to get stronger, fitter and leaner, and in the future hopefully lift competitively,

I think you need to decide which is your priority, because your training is going to differ alot depending on which is more important to you.

caterpillar101

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm not being a dick here, but Hanley has significant experience and success in the sport. If he suggests that the leg extensions are a bad idea, you should take that on board..

I will. I gave my trainer's reasons for including them in my program, not knocking what Hanley said. I'm not trying to defend my clusterf*ck program here, rather explain where it came from and hopefully get some better suggestions.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm not being a dick here, but Hanley has significant experience and success in the sport. If he suggests that the leg extensions are a bad idea, you should take that on board..

I can see WHY people think leg extensions are a good idea (cos it 'burns' in your quads), but that will literally have no carryover to increase squat poundages.

All the leg extensions will do is put excessive loading on your knees, increase recovery time and take you away from more worthwhile exercises. Your legs (and core) need to work as an integrated unit in powerlifting so you need o keep that in mind when you're training.

Look at it this way - for a big squat you need good technique, strong quads, hamstrings and glutes, AND a core capable of supporting that weight. In the first place, you're training 1 of the 5 qualities needed when the time could be better spend doing multiple, AND in the second, weak quads are generally the least likely limiting factor when it comes to a big squat.

So, that's why you shouldn't do leg extensions.

Leg curls, I would argue have their place, because your hamstrings serve two primary purposes - knee flexion and hip extension. All the DL'n and stuff takes care of the latter, but the former is something people tend to neglect and I'd have something in there purely because I think completely ignoring certain things because they serve no 'functional' purpose will only lead to problems down the road.

Hanley

caterpillar101 wrote: »

Leg extensions to strengthen the quads, Leg curls for the hamstrings.


Like?


Would you recommend lower reps with higher weight?


What would you strip it down to?
Bear in mind that I want to get stronger, fitter and leaner, and in the future hopefully lift competitively, when I am stronger, fitter and leaner :-) Can I do both at the same time? Start training for powerlifting to reach the other goals?


I havent squatted, benched or deadlifted since I hurt it. In fact, all I did was a supervised session using machines on Sunday. It's driving me mad though - any suggestions of what else I can do til it clears up? Bike? Not a big swimmer.

@ Gymfreak: Pushups and pullups - noted. Pullups as opposed to chinups? Negatives or assisted better to build up to full ones?
Oh, and I've been reading your log for inspiration :-)

Thanks for the advice.

I'll get back to this at lunch time.

caterpillar101

I´d like to explain my goals and background a little better than I did in this morning´s post.

I´m serious about training and really enjoy lifting, but have had so many different approaches recommended over the years that I can get a little lost (more cardio, high reps, low weights, no rest between sets, jump around between sets,etc. etc.). That´s why I hope I can get some advice and info here.

Training/exercise is my stress-coping mechanism, and (one of my) antidepressant(s). I hope that by setting myself the goal of (eventually) powerlifting for my local sports club (I live in Germany), it´ll give my training a new sense of purpose and a long-term goal.
I really am just getting started with it though, and am not at present happy with either my fitness or my body composition. I dont particularly want to lose weight or drop dress sizes, but I would be very happy to have a bit less fat and a bit more muscle.

Da Za

Just a quick reply, short of time, but www.elitefts.com has a tonne of info for you to go through.

gymfreak

caterpillar101 wrote: »

I´d like to explain my goals and background a little better than I did in this morning´s post.

I´m serious about training and really enjoy lifting, but have had so many different approaches recommended over the years that I can get a little lost (more cardio, high reps, low weights, no rest between sets, jump around between sets,etc. etc.). That´s why I hope I can get some advice and info here.

Training/exercise is my stress-coping mechanism, and (one of my) antidepressant(s). I hope that by setting myself the goal of (eventually) powerlifting for my local sports club (I live in Germany), it´ll give my training a new sense of purpose and a long-term goal.
I really am just getting started with it though, and am not at present happy with either my fitness or my body composition. I dont particularly want to lose weight or drop dress sizes, but I would be very happy to have a bit less fat and a bit more muscle.

Caterpillar I see where you are coming from and just like you I don't feel I need to/ or you for that matter choose to powerlift solely. My training isn't based solely around powerlifting because I don't want to just powerlift...well...not just yet:) I like being fit, I like variety and I like lifting weights. There is nothing wrong with having powerlifting, fitness
and lean goals...yes, it would be probably better served to attack each one separately but if that's what your interested in doing, I think it's fine...others will definitely disagree with me there:P

Lastly, I'm just curious. When you say your 'trainer', how often do you see them or do they just write the program for you and show you how it's done before leaving you to try it out for a few weeks and then reassess?

You will get help on boards if your open to suggestions. It's when a poster doesn't seem to be listening to any advice that people will generally stop helping.:)

caterpillar101

Da Za wrote: »

Just a quick reply, short of time, but www.elitefts.com has a tonne of info for you to go through.

Thanks - started having a browse through some of the articles. Great stuff.

gymfreak wrote: »

Lastly, I'm just curious. When you say your 'trainer', how often do you see them or do they just write the program for you and show you how it's done before leaving you to try it out for a few weeks and then reassess?

It´s a trainer from the sports club who´s been training powerlifters for years. I should be seeing him once a week, but it being summer (holidays etc) I´ve only had one session with him where he went through the 3 PL lifts with me, and the program that I posted in the OP. When I went to train with him on Sunday, I had too much pain in my back/ass to go through any of it. He gave me a programme to do using the machines until it clears up - a couple of days in his opinion. It´s even worse today though so I´m not even sure if I´ll be able to do that programme tomorrow.

As I said, when he gave me that programme (should do it for 6 weeks or so), he said to add on to it whatever I felt like. And that´s what was really throwing me

gymfreak wrote: »

You will get help on boards if your open to suggestions. It's when a poster doesn't seem to be listening to any advice that people will generally stop helping.:)

Yeah, I realised earlier that I might have come across a bit closed to any other suggestions!!! Now I´m thinking how will if go down if I go back to my very experienced trainer and tell him that some people off dinternet told me his training plan is a load of balls! (I know, I asked!!!)

gymfreak

caterpillar101 wrote: »

Yeah, I realised earlier that I might have come across a bit closed to any other suggestions!!! Now I´m thinking how will if go down if I go back to my very experienced trainer and tell him that some people off dinternet told me his training plan is a load of balls! (I know, I asked!!!)

I was just curious because you say he's very experienced, yet your asking for advice on boards. Surely there must be something your not happy with or doubtful about if your asking for other opinions? Just something to think about

Parsley

caterpillar101 wrote: »

It´s a trainer from the sports club who´s been training powerlifters for years. I should be seeing him once a week, but it being summer (holidays etc) I´ve only had one session with him where he went through the 3 PL lifts with me, and the program that I posted in the OP. When I went to train with him on Sunday, I had too much pain in my back/ass to go through any of it. He gave me a programme to do using the machines until it clears up - a couple of days in his opinion. It´s even worse today though so I´m not even sure if I´ll be able to do that programme tomorrow.

As I said, when he gave me that programme (should do it for 6 weeks or so), he said to add on to it whatever I felt like. And that´s what was really throwing me

Srsly? I dunno who your trainer is, or his experience, but those bits don't seem like sensible or experienced advice really. I'm not Hanley but it really doesn't seem like any sort of decent plan, to me at least.

TimeToShine

why not just do starting strength or stronglifts?

Da Za

TimeToShine wrote: »

why not just do starting strength or stronglifts?

I could not like this more hahahahaha

Mellor

caterpillar101 wrote: »

What would be the best exercises to add in with this? I dont do well "just adding in" exercises - I like to know that what I'm doing is giving me the most efficient workout.

My first reaction was also to take stuff out. That's in goal is "powerlifting only" as opposed to "including power lifts in your workout"

Parsley wrote: »

Srsly? I dunno who your trainer is, or his experience, but those bits don't seem like sensible or experienced advice really. I'm not Hanley but it really doesn't seem like any sort of decent plan, to me at least.

I agree the program isn't ideal, or even any good for powerlifting. But at the same time there is other factors here.
The OP has said they want to eventually compete in powerlifting. But they have also that they want to improve fitness and body comp. I'm assuming that she said this to the trainer and that's probably the reason for the HIIT, cardio and isolation lifts.
I imagine she is supposed to progress to a more powerlifting focused routine in the future. As I can't see any trainer with any PL experience suggesting that for powerlifting.

caterpillar101

gymfreak wrote: »

I was just curious because you say he's very experienced, yet your asking for advice on boards. Surely there must be something your not happy with or doubtful about if your asking for other opinions? Just something to think about

Well, actually at first I wasnt really questioning the program he had given me, rather what I was doing on top of it, i.e. the additional exercises, HIIT etc.
I only started to question the trainer's stuff when Hanley started pulling holes out of it

gymfreak

caterpillar101 wrote: »

Well, actually at first I wasnt really questioning the program he had given me, rather what I was doing on top of it, i.e. the additional exercises, HIIT etc.
I only started to question the trainer's stuff when Hanley started pulling holes out of it

Oh, okay:)
I'm gonna presume so that you'll be following his program for a few weeks anyway since you'll be meeting him, yeh?

So, I am going back to your original post just to make a few comments.. but I'm sure the more knowledgeable people will be along to give you proper advice:P

DAY 1
Squats: 4 X 10
Machine leg extensions: 3 X 10
Bench press: 4 X 10
Incline DB press: 3 X 10
Deadlift: 4 X 10
Hyperextensions: 3 X 10

Alot of pressing here and not enough pulls
I'd add in inverted rows a few sets of 10

DAY 2
Front Squats: 4 X 10
Calf raises: 3 X 10
Narrow grip bench press: 4 X 10
DB Pullovers: 3 X 10
Deadlift: 4 X 10
Good mornings: 3 X 10

You could throw in some sets of pushups of this day if ya fancied...I like symmetry..therefore I added one thing to each workout:P

DAY 3
Squats: 4 X 10
Machine leg curls: 3 X 10
Bench press: 4 X 10
DB fly: 3 X 10
Deadlift: 4 X 10
Bentover row: 3 X 10

I'd stick in the asstd pull up machine on this day or if you have resistance bands they'd work better.

• Obviously some core work (have been doing russian twists, plank, prone cobra, ab rollouts, incline crunch, machine crunch - not all in same session).
  What would be the most efficient? Need to strengthen my stomach muscles.

Maybe pick 2 different ones to add to each day of your program: maybe planks and russian twists, hanging leg raises and side arches..that kind of thing.

Have been ending each session with a HIIT block (8 mins, 4 X 4 Tabata protocol) of skipping, KB swings, jump squats, situps, push ups (from knees). Should I be doing more of this, i.e. longer blocks?

IF you wanted to get good at pushups/pullups this could be an opportunity to accrue some volume..maybe 10 pushups, 10 inverted rows, 10 squats constantly for 15mins..it's like a little cardio circuit, do it as fast as ya can. For fitness and strength gains.

If your looking to get leaner/fitter..maybe intervals of a xtrainer..30sec as fast as you can and depending on your fitness levels 1min/1.30 rec for 20mins??
It still looks a bit haphazard to be honest but I though you'd appreciate some suggestions:)

caterpillar101

Thanks for the suggestions.

gymfreak wrote: »

I'd stick in the asstd pull up machine on this day or if you have resistance bands they'd work better.

No assted pull up machine at my gym unfortunately. I've been using a bicycle tube:).

gymfreak wrote: »

Maybe pick 2 different ones to add to each day of your program: maybe planks and russian twists, hanging leg raises and side arches..that kind of thing.

Do you mean DB side bends?

gymfreak wrote: »

Maybe 10 pushups, 10 inverted rows, 10 squats constantly for 15mins..it's like a little cardio circuit, do it as fast as ya can. For fitness and strength gains.

If your looking to get leaner/fitter..maybe intervals of a xtrainer..30sec as fast as you can and depending on your fitness levels 1min/1.30 rec for 20mins??
It still looks a bit haphazard to be honest but I though you'd appreciate some suggestions:)

Would this be best done on a different day to weights? I would actually prefer to train every day if possible, so if I could split things up without adversely affecting my recovery I'd be very happy!

Now here's back to stretching and hoping that my back/ass/SI is feeling better soon - I'm really afraid to do anything in case it makes things worse!

G86

caterpillar101 wrote: »

T
Would this be best done on a different day to weights? I would actually prefer to train every day if possible, so if I could split things up without adversely affecting my recovery I'd be very happy!

Just to chime in here...

You could do a conditioning block after your weight session if you wanted, or you could divide your week up into alternating strength and conditioning days, the only thing is you really need to figure out what you're aiming for first. If it's specifically competitive powerlifting that you're interested in, then I don't know much but I do know that any kind of high intensity interval type training is going to affect your recovery. You don't see many powerlifters doing crossfit.... (Just an example, as Gymfreak was referring to conditioning blocks in her post not CF)

I get where you're coming from, you want everything at once, you want to be stronger, fitter and look better, and of course you can train for all of those things - but you also have to understand that one can impede the other without the right programming. If you wanted to be incredibly lean, you could just lo cal/lo carb your way there, but then you wouldn't have the energy for those high intensity cardio workouts to increase your fitness. If you wanted to be stronger, you could simply powerlift, and cut out conditioning - and you'd get stronger but it wouldn't have much of an effect on your bodyfat.

If you did a mix of S&C with a healthy diet then you'd get stronger, leaner and fitter, and if you're not looking to compete in the near future, and still want to drop fat etc., then I think it's really the best way to go.

As for your trainer, I don't know of any trainer who would tell you to 'throw in' a few exercises to a program they've made out for you. Sure isn't the point of going to a trainer that they're the 'expert'? They're meant to guide you, not tell you to do what you want. I go through phases of not doing what I'm told, and just doing what I want myself - and you know what happens? I get fat and weak So, I really don't understand why someone who is trained and being paid to advise you, is telling you to add your own bits into the programming they've set out for you. Sure for all he knows you could be 'throwing in' some squats on a swiss ball.....

I think you should take what you can from this thread, as Hanley and Gymfreak are giving you some great advice, then write it all down and go to your trainer with your questions. You're paying him for a service; when I get my haircut the hairdresser doesn't cut one side and tell me to do what I want with the other.....

colman1212

This is a good thread. Be interested to see how it goes. My understanding of training for powerlifting is low rep training on the big four exercises (Squat, press, deadlift, bench). After that chins, pullups, rows and dips. Keep the reps low and eat as much as possible, get the right amount of protein in.

Question for Hanley, For someone new to powerlifting, would you recommend using one of the standard programs such as, starting strength, 5x5 etc or actually getting a power lifting coach to work out a program?
Would you think their would be a huge difference in the progress an intermediate lifter would make on starting strength vs the progress they would make with a program designed by a powerlifting coach?

Hanley

Sorry guys pretty tied up in work at the moment. I'm watching and will respond this evening.

Someone should try and dig up Kevpants old westside for beginners post as well. It's one of the best that's been on the forum in relation to the topic.

d'Oracle

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60146801

Sin é.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60146801

Sin é.

Beast. Good man. Incredible thread.

g'em

cheers lad. 'tis in the list of useful threads now

gymfreak

caterpillar101 wrote: »

No assted pull up machine at my gym unfortunately. I've been using a bicycle tube:).

I'm gonna presume that does the same job as a resistance band so that's good enough. So just do your band/bicycle tube:pac: pullups.

Do you mean DB side bends?

Yup. Plenty of options for the core work..I'd pick 2 core exercises and add them to the end of each workout
as in Day 1 plank and sidebends
Day 2 ab roll outs and side planks
Day 3 db situps and russian twist
Anything like that..

Would this be best done on a different day to weights? I would actually prefer to train every day if possible, so if I could split things up without adversely affecting my recovery I'd be very happy!

I'm not too clear on how your already structuring your week. 3 Days of weight training and then the other 3 days your doing classes, is it?
The circuit could either be thrown in at the end of a weights day or it could be a separate day altogether with the xtrainer.

Hanley

I was supposed to reply to something here right?

caterpillar101

You were going to make some suggestions regarding how to get started training for powerlifting.

There´s no rush though. It turns out my "SI pain" is actually a disc herniation, so it´ll be a while before I´m doing any lifting again. *bangs head against desk*

COH

caterpillar101 wrote: »

You were going to make some suggestions regarding how to get started training for powerlifting.

There´s no rush though. It turns out my "SI pain" is actually a disc herniation, so it´ll be a while before I´m doing any lifting again. *bangs head against desk*

Well then.. I'll chime in since in January I couldn't walk, and I squated 240 last night.

How bad is the disc? Annular tear or complete meltdown?
Did you have an MRI?
Any sciatica?

Squatting and deadlifting might be off the menu.. but unilateral work can all help provide a solid foundation for when you are able to get back to the compounds... It will aslo help you recover faster if you can build stability in the area.

Do tonnes of core work.. heavy ab stuff a few times a week.

I'm guessing its your L5-S1 or L4-L5 thats injured if you thought it was your SI joint?

Do mobility stuff.. glutes/hips in particular... along with, well everything really, but you must acknowledge the piriformis as your enemy.

When you progress from unilateral work.. maybe spend some time doing compounds that dont put as much pressure on your lower back.. front instead of back squats, sumo instead of conventional deads... dont do anything unsupported where you have to bend at the waist. I'm probably rambling now.... Eh, find a reverse hyper, and back extensions/GHRs will work your posterior chain nicely o if you dont want to deadlift at all for a while you can still make sure you come back strong

caterpillar101

Agh, I just typed out a reply and lost it! B*gger - typical!

COH wrote: »

Well then.. I'll chime in since in January I couldn't walk, and I squated 240 last night.

Wow, well done - that makes me feel more hopeful.

COH wrote: »

How bad is the disc? Annular tear or complete meltdown?
Did you have an MRI?
Any sciatica?

It´s an annular tear, L5-S1. The doctor was calling it an acute "little" prolapse ("kleiner Bandscheibenvorfall", little sounds strange in English) so I´m hoping it´s not too bad. I had an MRI this morning.
I have some pain radiating into my left leg, but it´s mainly concentrated in the lower left back area.

Have been prescribed physio, rehab, acupuncture, and go a nice support to wear which feels a bit like girdle - really attractive! Also some homeopathic stuff for good measure.

COH wrote: »

unilateral work can all help provide a solid foundation for when you are able to get back to the compounds... It will aslo help you recover faster if you can build stability in the area.

Do tonnes of core work.. heavy ab stuff a few times a week.

Do mobility stuff.. glutes/hips in particular... along with, well everything really, but you must acknowledge the piriformis as your enemy.

I´m hoping I´ll get some good advice from the physios, but what exercises specifically would you recommend (yes, I´m so afraid of doing further damage that I would like to have it spelled out for me!).

Thanks for your reply - I´m trying not to let this freak me out!

COH

caterpillar101 wrote: »

It´s an annular tear, L5-S1... I had an MRI this morning.
I have some pain radiating into my left leg, but it´s mainly concentrated in the lower left back area.

Thats exactly what I had (have), approximating the S1 root nerve.... so I'll outline my own experience but mainly as a reference point as its hard to find much decent info in the one place online. I'm prone to doing stupid things so follow your doctor/physio/whatevers advice.

Good news... in the grand scheme of disc injuries an annular tear isn't that high on the list, the annulus fibre is compromised but the nucleus is still intact... but you have to treat it as the possible precursor to something worse. I was told that rehab takes between 6 and 18 months, with a million factors affecting this number. Aim for one, assume the other. Be aggressive with rehab if you can, but know when to back off if you have to.

Have been prescribed physio, rehab, acupuncture, and go a nice support to wear which feels a bit like girdle - really attractive! Also some homeopathic stuff for good measure.

Get a physio, rehab person, voodoo witch doctor that has experience dealing with sports people, and preferably is/was active themselves. This is especially the case with strength training.... if your specialist doesnt understand your reasoning and desire to be under a 700lb bar, they wont get you to where you want to be. There are lots and lots of crap physios... If you want the name of my guy I'll PM you the details.

I´m hoping I´ll get some good advice from the physios, but what exercises specifically would you recommend (yes, I´m so afraid of doing further damage that I would like to have it spelled out for me!).

First of all you need to figure out what you're capable of doing. In terms of exercise choice.. if it hurts, dont do it. If it doesnt hurt, make damn sure you're doing it correctly. Theres a good article by Eric Cressy I think about the progression from bodyweight exercises - unilateral exercises - compound exercises with little if any spinal loading after back injuries ... But thats essentially the progression.

Read as much as you can on mobility and stability... Will Heffernan (who did my rehab stuff), Mike Robertson, Kevin Starrs mobility WOD, DeFranco, Mike Boyle and loads others have blogs/articles/videos etc that will help you get your body operating as it should. Use online resources that cater for people who do what you want to do... spinal health forums are great for average joe who is uncomfortable sitting at a desk, but not for people who want to push their bodies to their limits.

I've no business structuring your training.. but over the past 7 months or so I've included the following... Goblet squats, potato sack squats, Elevated split squats, Supported DB Deadlifts, 1 leg stiff leg deadlifts, reverse hypers, back extensions, Glute/Ham raise, Weighted ab work, sumo deadlifts.... (see a pattern here?)

Things I avoided as much as possible... exercises that cause spinal loading, so back squats (I tried to anyway!), over head pressing (never liked it anyway) shrugs, unsupported barbell rows, anything explosive off the ground... ummm I'm sure theres more but you get the idea.

Thanks for your reply - I´m trying not to let this freak me out!

Injuries force you to train better, they make you think about what you're doing (something I never did before and probably should still do more of). Because of where the L5-S1 is situated in your back (its heavily loaded) you need to be much more careful in every day life when your not thinking about doing things perfectly liek you would in the gym. Lumbar support when seated (if you have a desk job) for one is a good idea, and do all the usual things we should all do like maintaining a flat back when lifting anything/puttin on socks/getting freaky naughty etc.

Go to www.elitefts.com > Q&A > Search > type in 'L5-S1' > read the many many responses people asking the same questions as you got from people alot more qualified than me.

www.marunde-muscle.com has a very good training & injuries forum too.

Theres some stuff on www.dragonsdoor.com (I think thats it)

Google Dan John's article about exercises you should do or something to that effect.

Buy a foam roller, a cricket ball, pvc pipe, get access to bands, google distraction techniques, traction, flexion, learn everything about everything ever ever ever!

Best of luck with the rehab

COH

Now, as you can see, Ive basically turned your training program into something that approximates an iprogram! ... Obviously there are a million and one changes you could make.. I just assumed you want to stay lifting stuff 3 times a week... Hanley and co. feel free to jump in... but it might suit you a bit better than what you were given... In terms of cardio... aim for low impact exercises, conditioning etc. just be careful of things like kettlebell swings and anything that involves twisting your core.

caterpillar101 wrote: »

DAY 1
Front Squats: 4 X 10
Hamstring Curl: 3 X 10
Bench press: 4 X 10
Weighted Ab work: 3 X 10
Back extension: 3 X 10
Bicep/tricep exercise 3x10


DAY 2
Goblet squats: 4 X 10
Single Leg DB deadlifts: 3 X 10
Narrow grip bench press: 4 X 10
Weighted Ab work: 3 X 10
Glute Ham Raise: 3 X 10
Bicep/Tricep exercise 3x10


DAY 3
Elevated Split Squat: 4 X 10
Hamstring curls: 3 X 10
Dumbbell Press: 4 X 10
Weighted ab work: 3 X 10
Chest supported Row: 4 X 10
Shoulder complex (front/side raise): 3 X 10

Hanley

^^You're the one who knows how to work with broken backs dude.


....but you're also the guy who knows how to break them.

Justin1982

Loving this post. Trying to slowly read through it all and get up to date on what exactly is going on.

Fair play to you Caterpillar on making the first step into the big bad (and quiet frustrating) world of Powerlifting. Hope you keep at it long term.

Possibly going to confuse you more, or contradict what someone else has already advised, by suggesting that you take a read of the Starting Strength programme. Designed by a guy who really knows his merd (if you'll excuse my French). Even if you dont do the programme, the education contained in the programme is second to none. If you read all of the SS wiki in below link, I think you'll begin to see what is right and what is wrong with your programme.

For example, the fact that your trainer added "Close Grip Bench" and "Incline Bench" in a beginner programme straight away makes me raise an eyebrow. You dont need to Bench Press 3 or 4 different ways to get stronger as a beginner. You just need to Bench Press, focus on perfect form, adding weight gradually to the bar and recovering sufficiently before you do it again in a few days time.

As for injuries....Hmmmm......They are quiet common with people who start strength training, particularly if you are pushing yourself to the max or your form is off a bit.......You have to push through injuries often and not let them slow your progress for too long........I had a back injury when I started deadlifting/squating earlier in the year. Temptation was to take a week or two off until it got better but I decided to lower the weight and tried to keep lifting until back got better and then continue my progress. Of course, if one keeps lifting and pushing through an injury, you want to be careful that it doesnt make the injury worse or feel too painful during the exercise. Others will probably deal with injuries differently to me of course (and probably with good reason )

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Program

Good luck!

COH

Justin1982 wrote: »

Possibly going to confuse you more, or contradict what someone else has already advised, by suggesting that you take a read of the Starting Strength programme. Designed by a guy who really knows his merd (if you'll excuse my French). Even if you dont do the programme, the education contained in the programme is second to none. If you read all of the SS wiki in below link, I think you'll begin to see what is right and what is wrong with your programme.

Well it wouldnt be a thread about lifting anything on boards if someone didnt recommend SS!

Reading about linear progression is fine.. nobody is going to argue that everyone should squat and deadlift more weight more times forever. The theory of getting stronger is one thing, but the op probably shouldnt be doing either exercise (yet), or overhead pressing for that matter... and if she squats like Rippetoe does (aka like an idiot) then its a sure-fire way increase the chances of upgrading a bulging disc to something a whole lot worse in a hurry.

EDIT - I forgot to mention that doing power cleans would literally be the stupidest idea ever. So, for the purposes of strength training with the injury in question, SS is probably worse than the program she was given initially.

TimeToShine

COH wrote: »

Well it wouldnt be a thread about lifting anything on boards if someone didnt recommend SS!

Reading about linear progression is fine.. nobody is going to argue that everyone should squat and deadlift more weight more times forever. The theory of getting stronger is one thing, but the op probably shouldnt be doing either exercise (yet), or overhead pressing for that matter... and if she squats like Rippetoe does (aka like an idiot) then its a sure-fire way increase the chances of upgrading a bulging disc to something a whole lot worse in a hurry.

EDIT - I forgot to mention that doing power cleans would literally be the stupidest idea ever. So, for the purposes of strength training with the injury in question, SS is probably worse than the program she was given initially.

...

explain...

Justin1982

COH wrote: »

Well it wouldnt be a thread about lifting anything on boards if someone didnt recommend SS!

Reading about linear progression is fine.. nobody is going to argue that everyone should squat and deadlift more weight more times forever. The theory of getting stronger is one thing, but the op probably shouldnt be doing either exercise (yet), or overhead pressing for that matter... and if she squats like Rippetoe does (aka like an idiot) then its a sure-fire way increase the chances of upgrading a bulging disc to something a whole lot worse in a hurry.

EDIT - I forgot to mention that doing power cleans would literally be the stupidest idea ever. So, for the purposes of strength training with the injury in question, SS is probably worse than the program she was given initially.

I'll agree that Powercleans can be a troublesome exercise for a beginner even if your not previously injured. Takes a while to get the form correct. SS wiki does have a programme detailed which excludes Powercleans.

I'd have to disagree on the Overhead Press, Squating and Deadlifting for a beginner being a major problem. Some of the exercises were already in her programme and she said she was using light weights to practise form for a while. When a beginner spends a while practising form with a light weight, and doesnt increase the weight (or begin the SS programme properly) until they are comfortable with form then there is no problem as far as I can see.
She will have to do these exercises if she wants to compete someday. I'd encourage any newbie to be ambitious and not shy away from squating and deadlifting from the start if competing is one of their aims.

Even without doing SS itself, the Wiki is an education on beginning strength training which will benefit Caterpillar no matter what programme she does.

As for her injuries, I'm no expert and I dont know what exactly she should do.
I was only suggesting that squating and deadlifting with an injured back was something I did. Knowing I was injured made me focus on correct form using a lower weight and within a few squating and deadlifting sessions, my back pain disappeared and my back got a lot stronger. I do realise that this may be quiet a risky approach to solving an injury but I would encourage people to not let an injury stop them returning to those lifting exercises at some stage, if not straight away.
If Caterpillar can do situps, cycling and planks while injured then I'd suggest that she can possibly squat with very light weights also safely. But I'd let her be the judge of that.

Hanley

TimeToShine wrote: »

...

explain...

It's ****ing moronic. He literally coaches you to do everything you should try to avoid when squatting.

And as for someone suggesting a girl with a herniated disc is capable of squatting because they're able to do unloaded static core stablisation work and cycle is absolutely mind boggling. I almost forgot I was on boards for a short while...

TimeToShine

Hanley wrote: »

It's ****ing moronic. He literally coaches you to do everything you should try to avoid when squatting.

And as for someone suggesting a girl with a herniated disc is capable of squatting because they're able to do unloaded static core stablisation work and cycle is absolutely mind boggling. I almost forgot I was on boards for a short while...

He teaches ATG squatting which is far more taxing on the CNS and skeletal and muscular system than the 1/4 ROM squats Powerlifters do.

I don't see what hazards arise as a result of his coaching, and the technique he teaches coincides with other strength coaches teachings such as Bill Starr and Jim Wendler. Axial loading, no lower back rounding, no pelvic tilt/buttwink, drive through the heels and with the hips. Are you saying these are things you shouldn't do?

Would you please explain why you think his coaching is moronic and suggest, in your opinion, where you think people should be learning to squat.

Mellor

Justin1982 wrote: »

As for injuries....Hmmmm......They are quiet common with people who start strength training, particularly if you are pushing yourself to the max or your form is off a bit.......You have to push through injuries often and not let them slow your progress for too long........

That couldn't be more wrong.
Push through the pain is when you are tired and your body aches, and you force out one last set, or the final 1km of a race.

It does not mean you ignore that stabbing sensation in your back everytime you squat.

Justin1982 wrote: »

As for her injuries, I'm no expert and I dont know what exactly she should do.
I was only suggesting that squating and deadlifting with an injured back was something I did. Knowing I was injured made me focus on correct form using a lower weight and within a few squating and deadlifting sessions, my back pain disappeared and my back got a lot stronger.

I doubt you were injuried.
Either you had some DOMs and made a big deal out of it.
or you had bad form that was straining you, focusing on correct form made the pain stop.

TimeToShine wrote: »

He teaches ATG squatting which is far more taxing on the CNS and skeletal and muscular system than the 1/4 ROM squats Powerlifters do.

I don't see what hazards arise as a result of his coaching, and the technique he teaches coincides with other strength coaches teachings such as Bill Starr and Jim Wendler. Axial loading, no lower back rounding, no pelvic tilt/buttwink, drive through the heels and with the hips. Are you saying these are things you shouldn't do?

Would you please explain why you think his coaching is moronic and suggest, in your opinion, where you think people should be learning to squat.

Just because in some federations some powerlifters get away with shallow squats does not mean they all train like that. A comp lift is different to a training lift.
And btw Hanley is probably the poster most critical of squat depth here.

Anyway, not everything he teaches is wrong. There are some universal points that everyone agrees on, such as drive through the heels you mentioned above. But some of the extra pointers he gives are wrong. For example, head down looking at your feet.
I don't paticularly want to try a good morning with my max squat...

gymfreak

This thread was full of great information but it's rapidly sliding downhill.

Justin1982 wrote:

As for her injuries, I'm no expert and I dont know what exactly she should do. I was only suggesting that squating and deadlifting with an injured back was something I did. Knowing I was injured made me focus on correct form using a lower weight and within a few squating and deadlifting sessions, my back pain disappeared and my back got a lot stronger. I do realise that this may be quiet a risky approach to solving an injury but I would encourage people to not let an injury stop them returning to those lifting exercises at some stage, if not straight away.
If Caterpillar can do situps, cycling and planks while injured then I'd suggest that she can possibly squat with very light weights also safely. But I'd let her be the judge of that.

Justin1982 I think it might be helpful if you went back and read through the entire thread. Caterpillar had been given good advice re: programme and when she mentioned her injury she got even better advice.

The advice that you've given is quite dangerous for someone who has a proper injury and not just a little pain in their back. I think you need to be more careful with the advice that you give out, giving generic advice when you mention above that a)you are no expert and b) you don't know what she should do is unbelievable stupid and dangerous. Yes, your trying to help, but if you don't know what your talking about with regards to injuries..don't give advice!!

TimeToShine

Rippetoe says to look at a point on the floor six feet ahead of you.

I amn't having a go at hanley, I know he is far more experienced that i can ever hope to be. I just want to know what particular aspects of rippetoe's squatting preaching that he is against.

Hanley

TimeToShine wrote: »

He teaches ATG squatting which is far more taxing on the CNS and skeletal and muscular system than the 1/4 ROM squats Powerlifters do.

I don't see what hazards arise as a result of his coaching, and the technique he teaches coincides with other strength coaches teachings such as Bill Starr and Jim Wendler. Axial loading, no lower back rounding, no pelvic tilt/buttwink, drive through the heels and with the hips. Are you saying these are things you shouldn't do?

Would you please explain why you think his coaching is moronic and suggest, in your opinion, where you think people should be learning to squat.

He doesn't teach ATG squats. He teaches a below parallel squat. The exact same standard the majority of the WORLDS powerlifters are held to. Back yard BBQ federations in the US with a few hundred members, 1,000x plus of equipment and "anything goes" judging doesn't count as PL.

He tells you to look toward the ground, lift your elbows and drive with you hips first. That is moronic. It'll cause your hips to rise first and for you to GM your squat, which reduces the weight you can use and puts excessive Strasbourg on your lower back. It's stupid.

Watch any good squatter and they'll extend their thoracic spine at the top in conjunction with trying to rotate their elbows under the bar, and at bottom they'll dive their head back into their traps to prevent themselves from being kicked forward.

So like I said - he coaches the opposite to everything you should be doing.

COH

Justin1982 wrote: »

I'll agree that Powercleans can be a troublesome exercise for a beginner even if your not previously injured. Takes a while to get the form correct. SS wiki does have a programme detailed which excludes Powercleans.

99% of anyone I've ever seen doing a powerclean do it wrong. Including me, and I'd bet including you too.

I'd have to disagree on the Overhead Press, Squating and Deadlifting for a beginner being a major problem. Some of the exercises were already in her programme and she said she was using light weights to practise form for a while. When a beginner spends a while practising form with a light weight, and doesnt increase the weight (or begin the SS programme properly) until they are comfortable with form then there is no problem as far as I can see.

Well, the idea of the thread was to help with the program, just because there were exercises in it initially doesn't mean they should have been included at all. Her time could be much better spent, are you suggesting it would be better to just practice technique for 6-18months then maybe start trying to get stronger?

She will have to do these exercises if she wants to compete someday. I'd encourage any newbie to be ambitious and not shy away from squating and deadlifting from the start if competing is one of their aims.

I'd encourage her to actually address the problem and not be a complete retard. Did you even read what the injury is?

Even without doing SS itself, the Wiki is an education on beginning strength training which will benefit Caterpillar no matter what programme she does.

I didnt say she shouldnt read it. I've read it, still doesnt mean its gospel?

As for her injuries, I'm no expert and I dont know what exactly she should do.

Well then, clearly you should be giving advice.

I was only suggesting that squating and deadlifting with an injured back was something I did

Me too, guess what happened? You only get away with that kind of stuff for so long.

Knowing I was injured made me focus on correct form using a lower weight and within a few squating and deadlifting sessions, my back pain disappeared and my back got a lot stronger. I do realise that this may be quiet a risky approach to solving an injury but I would encourage people to not let an injury stop them returning to those lifting exercises at some stage, if not straight away.

You dont have to squat and deadlift to get stronger, when did I say she should never do them? Did you even read my post?

If Caterpillar can do situps, cycling and planks while injured then I'd suggest that she can possibly squat with very light weights also safely. But I'd let her be the judge of that

Great

Justin1982

Looks like I've opened up a big can of worms and ruined a number of peoples day Sorry everyone!

I'll have to take a look at Rippetoes squating technique to see why it annoys people so much . I learned my squatting technique from EliteFTS's "So you think you can squat?" series on Youtube.

In my defense I did warn Caterpillar that the way I worked through my injury was a bit risky. I only gave an example of how it worked for me. My injury was real. I injured muscles in my lower back and put it out on numerous occasions down the years and I always viewed it as a weak point (probably just weak and unconditioned back musclature) until I started squatting and deadlifting which built up the musle and strength in my back. Physio did nothing. Pain killers did nothing. Core exercises like the plank did nothing.
I was not proposing that Caterpillar squat or deadlift if it causes pain during exercise or exacerbates the problem. I was only proposing that she practise the technique with a low weight that isnt causing pain or making the problem worse, if or when she is able. Maybe her injury is so bad that she cant do even that. Then thats fine, dont follow my advise. I'm leaving it up to her to make the judgement seen as I know nothing about the exact injury or what she can or cant do right now.

And yes, my Powerclean is not perfect. Struggling to get under the bar properly but I keep working at it and focus on improving. Not currently having perfect technique isnt a reason to just abandon the exercise :rolleyes:

Parsley

TimeToShine wrote: »

He teaches ATG squatting which is far more taxing on the CNS and skeletal and muscular system than the 1/4 ROM squats Powerlifters do.