Junction of Dundrum Bypass and village

kermitdfrog

I'm home and have finally calmed down but I was fairly shaken up after once again nearly being run off the road by some clown at the junction between Dundrum Bypass and Dundrum Village (Main Street).

For those of you unfamiliar with the area, I'm talking about the junction just after the main crossroards under the LUAS bridge, the second left turn (the first is for buses only) when coming from the Dundrum Road or Churchtown Road and heading toward the Town Centre. See the map and image below:




As you can see from the image, there are two lanes going straight ahead (on to the Bypass) and the left hand lane is also for traffic heading left, into Dundrum Village (Main Street). Consistently people avoid the left hand lane, through ignorance or unfamiliarity presumably, clogging up the right hand lane unneccesarily and causing queues back down Dundrum Road (to the north of the preceeding crossroads) where people don't use up the two lanes for the same reason. Annoying, but not the end of the world and not the problem I'm getting at.

I always, where possible, use the left hand lane. Driving that way everyday on my home as I do I have been beeped at and had people flashed their lights at me many, many times for staying in that lane and driving straight ahead. As you can see, two lanes go in to one so I am always careful to correctly merge, always slowing down and giving way to the other lane if there isn't a suitable gap, merging in behind the next car etc.

Still, you get plenty of people who obviously don't pay enough attention to the road markings and get a bit of road rage when I do so, gesticulating and waving and beeping etc. However, twice in the last week things have escalated further with drivers trying to drive me off the road, presumably in some misguided attempt to "teach me a lesson".

Last week, a young enough looking professional type in a Golf tried it. I was in the left lane, there was a gap (large enough for three cars) in the right hand lane as the traffic flowed (from the previous junction, through the lights and through the lights at the junction in question), so I kept going at the same pace. I noticed the next driver in the right hand lane speed up to catch up to me as he realised I was going straight, then drive alongside me as we passed onto the merging road, then pull IN FRONT of me as the road narrows! I slammed on the brakes and rammed on the horn, but he didn't even look up.

Today almost the same thing happened - this time there was less of a gap but the traffic was merging as it should. Car in the right hand lane went straight on, followed by the the car in front of me which went straight on, then the next car from the right and then myself. The next car in the right hand lane was a taxi driver in a car-van. Plenty of space between cars again and everyone merging correctly. Until the guy behind me in the right hand lane. Again, as he saw I was carrying on straight he sped up as if to "put me in my place". This time he didn't get quite as far and didn't get in front of me, but pulled his front level with my back. So I kept going straight but he came damn close to my car and then swerved toward my car and hit the brakes to get behind me.

The driver started flashing his lights at me and I raised my arms up in a "what?" shrug. He started gesticulating toward the left, waving as if you to say "you should have gone left". I put my finger to my eyes and then pointed down (as if to say look at the markings) - don't know if he got it but he continued to wave and point. I pointed at my eyes a few more times and then he started waving his right elbow and slapping it with his left hand (I reckon he'd twigged what I was saying and realised I was in the right), before giving me the finger.

At that point I thought leave him be, let him get himself himself het up, thought no more of it and carried on up the road. At the next stop in traffic, at the roundabout at the south end of the Bypass, he pulled up alongside me. Shouted out "Give way to the right hand side!!" in the window while again slapping his right elbow - he'd obviously given up on the turning left angle! I just called out "Have a look at the markings" while he shouted it again, gave me the finger again and called me a "f'cking eejit".

I was livid at this point - even if his "give way to the right" is correct (I'm not sure about that to be honest so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt) there was no need to give way. There was no issue until he sped up alongside me - if we were alongside each other I would have slowed up but we weren't. I didn't curse of make any rude gestures but got both in return.

Sorry to waffle and rant but I just get fed up with the amount of drivers not paying attention at that junction, not using it correctly and then, to top it off, thinking I'm in the wrong. Going in the opposite direction the same thing happens except the "out" part of the junction has markings indicating that cars need to merge - seems as if the majority of drivers can't think for themselves and when presented with the EXACT SAME SCENARIO at the other end of the junction they can't cope but, even worse, some then try to exact some form of vigilante justice.

Anyone else fed up with the drivers there? Is is worth bringing to the attention of the council, maybe seeing they will paint the (seemingly) neccessary merge indicators on the North side of the junction?

thom119

I drive on that road a fair bit, and not to say who was in the right or wrong in this instance, but for some reason it feels more natural to drive straight on in the right hand lane, and left turn only in the left hand lane.

Possibly the lad behind you didn't see the road markings if there was traffic or just wasn't paying attention.

Anan1

People can be strange. I'd recommend picking a gap and 'owning' it fairly early on; if you stay too far left you'll only give them ideas.

Berty

People are like Sheep. They love to Queue and think you are not queuing and taking liberties. Ignore them. You cannot get done for it.

OldmanMondeo

OP you are correct. You keep left. Other driver was an ass. Have a brew and forget about it. If it happens again, give the "I didn't know look, I'm sorry" and continue on.

loobylou

"Give way to the right" does not apply here. What you were doing was correct, ie merge in turn, (providing there are no road markings indicating otherwise).

Dearg81

You were right OP, the right lane is for overtaking and if the car behind you has not overtook you in a safe manner by the time the road merges then its their fault not yours. Of course if a car in the right lane is level with you then you should give way which it sounds like you do.

When there is a continously occuring problem with a junction as the op describes and there is ambiguity in the average drivers mind about the junction then it is the design that is at fault. I think this is the case here. There is a similiar 2 lanes into one situation on a sligo road as you leave the town, it is a pretty heavy traffic area and causes all sorts of road rage and is also just very poor design. In all my driving in france, the netherlands and spain i have never encountered such poor design of junctions.

Sids Not

Not suprised at all....the first time you had a near miss was with a Golf...:rolleyes:...second time a taxi.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Two of the lowest forms of life on our roads....:p

BeardyGit

You should have just pulled into the right hand lane if there was space and you approached that junction and the lights. If you drive that way every day you'll recognise that you're one of very few drivers who will sit in the left hand lane waiting on the green due to the fact there's a filter light for the left hand turn onto Dundrum Main Street. The eejits sitting in the left hand lane block the way for traffic heading onto the main street and usually end up causing a tailback into the centre of the junction for traffic coming down Upper Churchtown road. Muppets have been doing it for years.

The better thing for the council to do would be to turn the left lane into a filter lane only and do away with the markings to proceed ahead. Same thing on the opposite side of the Taney crossroads where city bound traffic merges outside Joe Daly's bike shop. That's another bloody nuisance to deal with ever since Dundrum was turned into the southside's version of Swords village.

Finally, the direction of travel is not northerly at that junction. North would be back down Dundrum Road towards Windy Arbour and Miltown.

kermitdfrog

thom119 wrote: »

I drive on that road a fair bit, and not to say who was in the right or wrong in this instance, but for some reason it feels more natural to drive straight on in the right hand lane, and left turn only in the left hand lane.

Possibly the lad behind you didn't see the road markings if there was traffic or just wasn't paying attention.

Oh I have no doubt that the two drivers in question, and most drivers, THOUGHT they were in the right and that it may feel more natural one way or the other. But they were still wrong.

loobylou wrote: »

"Give way to the right" does not apply here. What you were doing was correct, ie merge in turn, (providing there are no road markings indicating otherwise).

Exactly. Thank you (and others).

BeardyGit wrote: »

You should have just pulled into the right hand lane if there was space (1)(2) and you approached that junction and the lights. If you drive that way every day you'll recognise that you're one of very few drivers who will sit in the left hand lane (3) waiting on the green (4) due to the fact there's a filter light for the left hand turn onto Dundrum Main Street. The eejits sitting in the left hand lane block the way for traffic heading onto the main street (5) and usually end up causing a tailback into the centre of the junction for traffic coming down Upper Churchtown road (6). Muppets have been doing it for years (7).

Sorry, eh, what?! That makes no sense.

1. There was no space to pull in to - there was room to merge but pulling over would have caused the other driver to brake and was a tight space. There was room to merge, as I was supposed to.

2. Whay "should" I have pulled in to the right hand lane, exactly? Because some THINK I am supposed to when the fact is it is clearly marked for straight ahead?

3. Yes I recognise I am one of the few - doesn't make me wrong. It means most people don't realise they should be using both lanes or just dont.

4. There being a filter light doesn't make a difference because of the timing of the lights - I used to stay in the right hand lane when the lights sequence was different (or unless there was no one in the left hand lane i.e. I could make room at the front if I was stopped and others were turning left) but since they changed a few years ago the lights are timed with the lights at the previous crossroads so that when the south bound lights go green so do the lights at this junction i.e. there is no waiting. There is no need. As I say, I used to stick to the right but even then I would perfectly within my rights to stay in the left.

5. See point 4 as to why it's not relevant, but more to the point doing things as you are supposed to is hardly cause for being called an eejit.

6. In 6 years of driving that junction not once has there been a tail back up Churchtown road as a result of cars going straight in the left hand lane. Why? Because if all of said cars were in the right hand lane then those stuck on Churchtown road would STILL be stuck, as no cars could turn right in to the right hand lane once a car going in to that lane is at the front of the queue (which happens a lot). The best use of the junction is as stands, to fill up BOTH lanes, alowing more cars to get through that junction from Churchtown (and Dundrum Road).

7. If you'd personally rather approx half the cars get through each time because the left hand lane is left solely for left hand turners then fair enough, but people are not muppets for sticking to the way it is supposed to work rather than how you'd like it to work.

The better thing for the council to do would be to turn the left lane into a filter lane only and do away with the markings to proceed ahead. Same thing on the opposite side of the Taney crossroads where city bound traffic merges outside Joe Daly's bike shop. That's another bloody nuisance to deal with ever since Dundrum was turned into the southside's version of Swords village.

In both instances what you would do is cause further tailbacks as less traffic gets through the junction. Which makes no sense to me so I'd love to read your reasoning as to how lessening the through traffic on those roads is a good idea. The merge at Joe Daly's works well and is exactly what should be happening at the other junction - a nuisance to deal with? How? It's a fairly standard merge.

Finally, the direction of travel is not northerly at that junction. North would be back down Dundrum Road towards Windy Arbour and Miltown.

Fair point, typo on my part when writing the original post.

bijapos

BeardyGit wrote: »

If you drive that way every day you'll recognise that you're one of very few drivers who will sit in the left hand lane waiting on the green due to the fact there's a filter light for the left hand turn onto Dundrum Main Street. The eejits sitting in the left hand lane block the way for traffic heading onto the main street and usually end up causing a tailback into the centre of the junction for traffic coming down Upper Churchtown road. Muppets have been doing it for years.

1. How the hell is a stranger to the area supposed to know what sequence the lights will change at?

2. How does this then make someone who is trying to use the two lanes properly to the best of their knowledge an "eejit" or a "muppet".


I use that junction a few times a week and generally use the left lane to go straight. I am usually coming from the Churchtown Rd. Using both lanes means that at busy times more cars can get through the lights at a green light. I have had incidents like OP describes but the OP is right in this incident. It also doesn't matter what "the locals" do, its a case of following road markings and signage properly. Anyone who attempts to drive someone off the road doesn't deserve to be on it.

antodeco

Slightly OT, but love Google's geography. "Dundrum bypass, Stillorgan, Co. Dun Laoghaire".

daddydick

4. There being a filter light doesn't make a difference because of the timing of the lights - I used to stay in the right hand lane when the lights sequence was different (or unless there was no one in the left hand lane i.e. I could make room at the front if I was stopped and others were turning left) but since they changed a few years ago the lights are timed with the lights at the previous crossroads so that when the south bound lights go green so do the lights at this junction i.e. there is no waiting. There is no need. As I say, I used to stick to the right but even then I would perfectly within my rights to stay in the left.


I use this road regularly over the past 3 years and while I have sympathy for you the above is not true. If I come down from Taney Road side I can be met with a red light and if I am on the inside lane the filter arrow goes green before the full light goes green. I know this as I have had people up my backside beeping at me who want to turn into Dundrum village.

The only reason I would go into the inside lane is if, coming from Taney Road, the outside lane is full. Even though I am technically correct to do this, I can see why other road users think I am in the wrong and get amimated, seeing as though the road signs are underneath my car.

In fairness there is nothing more annoying than someone in your filter lane that shouldnt be there. I would advise the OP to use the outside lane where possible.

At the same time though that taxi driver was bang out of order and I would have taken his registration plate and reported him for his dangerous driving.

kermitdfrog

bijapos wrote: »

1. How the hell is a stranger to the area supposed to know what sequence the lights will change at?

2. How does this then make someone who is trying to use the two lanes properly to the best of their knowledge an "eejit" or a "muppet".


I use that junction a few times a week and generally use the left lane to go straight. I am usually coming from the Churchtown Rd. Using both lanes means that at busy times more cars can get through the lights at a green light. I have had incidents like OP describes but the OP is right in this incident. It also doesn't matter what "the locals" do, its a case of following road markings and signage properly. Anyone who attempts to drive someone off the road doesn't deserve to be on it.

Well said. And to be fair, even though I used to stick to the right hand lane I still didn't have to - and shouldn't have done, as I contributed to tailbacks down the Dundrum Road as a result (the traffic down that road would be greatly reduced if people used both lanes at the crossroads and subsequently at the left turn junction in question - as for those who ARE turning left and still stay in the right hand lane at the previous junction, well, the mind boggles). A filter lane which is not solely a filter lane will often be at the mercy of the the "luck" of what cars are in the lane at the time. It's not the only junction with a lane such as this, there are plenty.

bijapos

antodeco wrote: »

Slightly OT, but love Google's geography. "Dundrum bypass, Stillorgan, Co. Dun Laoghaire".

Stilorgan is the larger district and is afaik correct. County Dun Laoghaire is correct according to the Ordnance Survey as is County South Dublin. Its been like that since around 1994. Nobody uses it day to day though.

kermitdfrog

antodeco wrote: »

Slightly OT, but love Google's geography. "Dundrum bypass, Stillorgan, Co. Dun Laoghaire".

daddydick wrote: »

4. There being a filter light doesn't make a difference because of the timing of the lights - I used to stay in the right hand lane when the lights sequence was different (or unless there was no one in the left hand lane i.e. I could make room at the front if I was stopped and others were turning left) but since they changed a few years ago the lights are timed with the lights at the previous crossroads so that when the south bound lights go green so do the lights at this junction i.e. there is no waiting. There is no need. As I say, I used to stick to the right but even then I would perfectly within my rights to stay in the left.


I use this road regularly over the past 3 years and while I have sympathy for you the above is not true. If I come down from Taney Road side I can be met with a red light and if I am on the inside lane the filter arrow goes green before the full light goes green. I know this as I have had people up my backside beeping at me who want to turn into Dundrum village.

The only reason I would go into the inside lane is if, coming from Taney Road, the outside lane is full. Even though I am technically correct to do this, I can see why other road users think I am in the wrong and get amimated, seeing as though the road signs are underneath my car.

In fairness there is nothing more annoying than someone in your filter lane that shouldnt be there. I would advise the OP to use the outside lane where possible.

At the same time though that taxi driver was bang out of order and I would have taken his registration plate and reported him for his dangerous driving.

I am talking about coming down Dundrum Road - coming from Taney Road or Churchtown Road you are correct, it can be an issue. But the lights are specifically timed from Dundrum Road, through that junction, such that it is not an issue.

Besides, them being annoyed doesn't make them right, regardless of whether or not they can see the markings. It may be annoying that the filter lane is "full", but, frankly, tough to them. Someone being in your filter lane when they shouldn't be is indeed annoying - that's not the case here, as you, and I, SHOULD be in that lane.

Crazy Horse 6

Man up for gods sake it's not like somebody died.

kermitdfrog

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Man up for gods sake it's not like somebody died.

Nice one.

Victor

OP, do you use you indicators in these situations?

Can you use the right hand lane in these situations or is it busy?

Dearg81 wrote: »

You were right OP, the right lane is for overtaking and if the car behind you has not overtook you in a safe manner by the time the road merges then its their fault not yours. Of course if a car in the right lane is level with you then you should give way which it sounds like you do.

Actually, if I have it right, the vehicles in the right hand lane should be yielding to the vehicles in the left hand lane.

kermitdfrog

Victor wrote: »

OP, do you use you indicators in these situations.

Sometimes, though I don't need to AFAIK as it's a merge, I'm not changing lanes.

Can you use the right hand lane in these situations or is it busy?

No, it is busy. As in full. I'm not sure it's relevant mind, both lanes are going forward. But in general if I pass that way later in the day with no traffic I would use the right hand lane.

Actually, if I have it right, the vehicles in the right hand lane should be yielding to the vehicles in the left hand lane.

It's certainly not an overtaking lane anyway.

EDIT: Clarified from "Usually" to "sometimes" - I use them when traffic is tighter and there aren't clear gaps and it makes sense to let the other driver know what you are going to do. At other merges that's no neccessary but here, with the possibility of turning left, it's common sense in certain circumstances.

bijapos

Victor wrote: »

OP, do you use you indicators in these situations?

Can you use the right hand lane in these situations or is it busy?

Actually, if I have it right, the vehicles in the right hand lane should be yielding to the vehicles in the left hand lane.

OP wrote this bit below and this is how cars should merge, in a "zipper" fashion, one from the right, one from the left and so on, doesn't matter who starts, usually the car in front where the lanes begin to merge.

Having said that the bit of road after the junction could do with some extra road markings, 10-20m of dotted lines in the middle and "merging arrows" wouldn't go astray.

Car in the right hand lane went straight on, followed by the the car in front of me which went straight on, then the next car from the right and then myself.

kermitdfrog

bijapos wrote: »

Having said that the bit of road after the junction could do with some extra road markings, 10-20m of dotted lines in the middle and "merging arrows" wouldn't go astray.

That's true, and is the case at the other end of these two junctions. I fully agree the junction can be confusing and misleading - what gets me (and the "man up" comment was fair enough - I was just p'ssed off last night as it's been happening a lot lately) is people who get agressive (either in gesture or driving - the last two, particularily the Golf, were damned dangerous) because they are SO convinced they are right when, well, they aren't.

Crazy Horse 6

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Man up for gods sake it's not like somebody died.

Accident pyramid theory, look it up.

GavMan

Technically, you were right. however, in practice (and I know that road well) it don't think its practical or safe to merge from left to right as there isn't enough road ahead to do so safely as you go through the junction.

Really should make that left turn only or improve the road ahead. There is lots of grass verge and path that could be sacrificed to widen it to a bit further down (to the old Dundrum shopping centre car park perhaps???)

kermitdfrog

GavMan wrote: »

Technically, you were right. however, in practice (and I know that road well) it don't think its practical or safe to merge from left to right as there isn't enough road ahead to do so safely as you go through the junction.

Really should make that left turn only or improve the road ahead. There is lots of grass verge and path that could be sacrificed to widen it to a bit further down (to the old Dundrum shopping centre car park perhaps???)

I'll have to disagree with you there. It could certainly do with improvements, and widening would do no harm. But impractical or unsafe? Hardly. Plenty of cars merge correctly and safely everyday, myself included. The road is wider at the start to allow it.

The majority seem to THINK it will be unsafe, but it isn't. It is some weird mental block - I used to drive the Tallaght By Pass and the right hand turn on to Old Bawn Road everyday, where two lanes turn in to one. No merge markings, no hugely wide road.In fact, the road turning drivers are joining is tighter than in this case. There are no problems (generally). But because the Dundrum junction has an option of turning left, as opposed to two dedicated lanes in the other example, some people seem to switch off and forget how merging works, thinking it unsafe and impractical.

Greyfoot

Problem is as someone already mentioned that there are no clear indication which lane should merege into the other. Clear road signs would sort this problem out.(or not:rolleyes:)

Same thing if you coming from rathfarnham under the bridge and up the hill towards goatstown the two lanes merge into one. There are clear roadmarkings indicating that the RIGHT lane should merge into the left lane yet most drivers feel they have the right of way in the right hand lane.

Common sense dictates since there is left hand side driving in Ireland that in these situations where no markings visible at all cars in the left hand lane come first.

GavMan

kermitdfrog wrote: »

I'll have to disagree with you there. It could certainly do with improvements, and widening would do no harm. But impractical or unsafe? Hardly. Plenty of cars merge correctly and safely everyday, myself included. The road is wider at the start to allow it.

The majority seem to THINK it will be unsafe, but it isn't. It is some weird mental block - I used to drive the Tallaght By Pass and the right hand turn on to Old Bawn Road everyday, where two lanes turn in to one. No merge markings, no hugely wide road.In fact, the road turning drivers are joining is tighter than in this case. There are no problems (generally). But because the Dundrum junction has an option of turning left, as opposed to two dedicated lanes in the other example, some people seem to switch off and forget how merging works, thinking it unsafe and impractical.

Yes, it is probably wide enough but it's certainly not long enough.

Also, i live near the Old Bawn junction you refer to and it used to be nightmare. Less so now with less traffic as there are other routes people can take but it used to be very congested. Safe enough though (in that there were few accidents), I'll agree with that

kermitdfrog

Greyfoot wrote: »

Problem is as someone already mentioned that there are no clear indication which lane should merege into the other. Clear road signs would sort this problem out.(or not:rolleyes:)

Same thing if you coming from rathfarnham under the bridge and up the hill towards goatstown the two lanes merge into one. There are clear roadmarkings indicating that the RIGHT lane should merge into the left lane yet most drivers feel they have the right of way in the right hand lane.

Common sense dictates since there is left hand side driving in Ireland that in these situations where no markings visible at all cars in the left hand lane come first.

Again, I agree that better markings would help. But it doesn't change what should happen at the junction, just people's awareness of it.

On your last point, it is the same point that the taxi driver tried to make once he'd realised his mistake and was trying to back peddle furiously. Who gives way to whom only comes in to it if cars are level. If they are merging correctly, like a zipper as above, then it all just flows back from the first pairing (who will have to give way by who is in front or as you say if they are level).

Antikythera

bijapos wrote: »

2. How does this then make someone who is trying to use the two lanes properly to the best of their knowledge an "eejit" or a "muppet".

Whilst I agree that people should learn how to merge properly (common courtesy), it's an undeniable truth that Kermit the frog is, in fact, a muppet.

kermitdfrog

GavMan wrote: »

Yes, it is probably wide enough but it's certainly not long enough.

Again, I'll have to disagree. Given that it works fine when people us it correctly and that it is longer than the Old Bawn example I don't see that it is not.

Also, i live near the Old Bawn junction you refer to and it used to be nightmare. Less so now with less traffic as there are other routes people can take but it used to be very congested. Safe enough though (in that there were few accidents), I'll agree with that

Congestion was a problem, yes, but not the point, which is that people were capable of using it correctly and safely.

While OP was in the right, the left lane should be for left turn only there. I don't know why they painted it otherwise. I usually turn left there anyway but on the occasion I've gone straight on I'd go into the right lane as well.
People in the left learn fairly quickly when they're blocking people wanting to turn left and the left filter is on.

kermitdfrog

Antikythera wrote: »

bijapos wrote: »

2. How does this then make someone who is trying to use the two lanes properly to the best of their knowledge an "eejit" or a "muppet".

Whilst I agree that people should learn how to merge properly (common courtesy), it's an undeniable truth that Kermit the frog is, in fact, a muppet.

Dammit! It's a fair point. Foiled again, hoisted by my own petard....

bluewolf wrote: »

While OP was in the right, the left lane should be for left turn only there. I don't know why they painted it otherwise. I usually turn left there anyway but on the occasion I've gone straight on I'd go into the right lane as well.
People in the left learn fairly quickly when they're blocking people wanting to turn left and the left filter is on.

God no! Traffic would be so much worse were that the case! As it is it should be better as not enough drivers use that and its corresponding lane at the preceding junction.

sentient_6

If it was a situation where the left was empty, or just got a car or two turning left, & there's a descent queue in the right going straight, even knowing the left was for going straight as well, i would join the queue, as to not be a dick & essentially undertake a load of traffic & skip the queue. I can see why people in the in the right might be getting annoyed with you.

It doesn't even look like there descent room beyond the junction for two lanes of traffic to merge properly.

Mr. Presentable

There is no indicative signage, and the only road marking in the left lane will be covered if there is a car there. I can understand drivers on the right not being aware of the possibility the left lane also allows straight ahead traffic. Not the OPs fault.

GavMan

kermitdfrog wrote: »

Again, I'll have to disagree. Given that it works fine when people us it correctly and that it is longer than the Old Bawn example I don't see that it is not.

It clearly doesn't work fine if not everyone can use it and you felt compelled to start a thread on it

kermitdfrog wrote:

Congestion was a problem, yes, but not the point, which is that people were capable of using it correctly and safely.

On reflection the congestion aided the safe use of the merge as people were driving slower and allowing people to merge safely. The merge was also the cause of congestion until other roads opened up

Jimbob1977

The whole Dundrum/Ballinteer area has a litany of poorly designed roads:

1. Wyckham Point roundabout.

As marked:

Left lane for Wyckham Point only,
Right lane for straight ahead and right.

In practice:

Left lane for Wyckham Point and mostlystraight ahead (ignore the markings)

Right lane for minority straight ahead (correctly adhering to markings) and right turn.


2. Ballinteer Avenue roundabout

Both lanes approaching the roundabout from Dundrum can legally travel straight ahead towards the M50.

However, the exit road and roundabout are very tight and there are numerous close calls/last-minute yields daily. The drivers in the left lane believe that the people in the right lane are cutting them up, even though no regulation is broken.

The problem lies with the disused bus lane. The local council could probably burn the white paint off the road and make it a "proper" driving lane again.

There is an orange sign that says "Bus Lane not in Operation". Many people are averse to using the lane because they are afraid of getting pulled over. Instead, they

i) Use the right lane and drive straight through the roundabout or

ii) Duck rapidly into the left lane (narrowly avoiding the "Bus Lane" drivers) when the Bus Lane ends.


3. Overgrown signage on M50 Southbound Exit 13.

This is a fast downhill exit, with cars still moving at 100 kmph. There are three lanes for Rathfarnham, Dundrum and Sandyford; however the destination lanes are covered by branches and leaves.

I have written to Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council - who did not respond to my e-mail or cut the branches either. A stranger could have a panic attack if they were faced with three lanes and not a clue where to go.



4. Under Dundrum Luas bridge. Two lanes can travel northbound under the Luas Bridge from Dundrum to Windy Arbour. At the other side of the junction, the road becomes one lane - with significant yielding and weaving. The left lane has the "racing line" so to speak. Also, that part of Dundrum Road is quite rough and beaten up.

kermitdfrog

sentient_6 wrote: »

If it was a situation where the left was empty, or just got a car or two turning left, & there's a descent queue in the right going straight, even knowing the left was for going straight as well, i would join the queue, as to not be a dick & essentially undertake a load of traffic & skip the queue. I can see why people in the in the right might be getting annoyed with you.

It doesn't even look like there descent room beyond the junction for two lanes of traffic to merge properly.

:? How is using the junction as intended being a dick? How is using it correctly skipping a queue, just because others choose not to use it right? Should one leave an entire lane empty because everyone else does? They can be annoyed all they like, they're still wrong.

And there is room. It is done all the time.

kermitdfrog

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

There is no indicative signage, and the only road marking in the left lane will be covered if there is a car there. I can understand drivers on the right not being aware of the possibility the left lane also allows straight ahead traffic. Not the OPs fault.

Exactly

kermitdfrog

GavMan wrote: »

kermitdfrog wrote: »

Again, I'll have to disagree. Given that it works fine when people us it correctly and that it is longer than the Old Bawn example I don't see that it is not.

It clearly doesn't work fine if not everyone can use it and you felt compelled to start a thread on it

People driving badly is not always the fault of the road design. It works fine when people use it correctly. I felt compelled to start a thread not simply because weren't doing so, but because some nearly caused accidents trying to stop me doing so.

kermitdfrog wrote:

Congestion was a problem, yes, but not the point, which is that people were capable of using it correctly and safely.

On reflection the congestion aided the safe use of the merge as people were driving slower and allowing people to merge safely. The merge was also the cause of congestion until other roads opened up

True.

kermitdfrog

Jimbob - well put, that whole route is a mess at the moment, though the congestion has hugely improved over the last year and they are at least resurfacing Dundrum Road currently.

GavMan

kermitdfrog wrote: »

People driving badly is not always the fault of the road design. It works fine when people use it correctly. I felt compelled to start a thread not simply because weren't doing so, but because some nearly caused accidents trying to stop me doing so.

It's as yet undetermined if they are bad drivers using a perfectly planned and implemented piece of road. Or good(ish) drivers using a poorly planned piece of road.

I think we're probably going around in cricles now though. I merely think that it would solve the problem if people were given more time to merge (ie lengthen the lane). Better signs too

kermitdfrog

GavMan wrote: »

It's as yet undetermined if they are bad drivers using a perfectly planned and implemented piece of road. Or good(ish) drivers using a poorly planned piece of road.

Regardless, they're still wrong. But then, the purpose of the thread was not to highlight the people using the lane incorrectly, but those not only thinking they are using it correctly but trying to exact revenge on those they mistakenly believe to be in the wrong. That I would term a bad driver.

I think we're probably going around in cricles now though. I merely think that it would solve the problem if people were given more time to merge (ie lengthen the lane). Better signs too

Again, I agree. Always have. It just doesn't change any of the above.

stevenmu

sentient_6 wrote: »

If it was a situation where the left was empty, or just got a car or two turning left, & there's a descent queue in the right going straight, even knowing the left was for going straight as well, i would join the queue, as to not be a dick & essentially undertake a load of traffic & skip the queue. I can see why people in the in the right might be getting annoyed with you.

I see your point and agree to some extent, I used to always take that junction in the left lane but after a ton of incidents like the OPs (and I don't even use it that often), I mostly stick to the right lane. But pretty often the right lane is full or nearly full, with no one in the left lane, so there's a choice between using the left lane and waiting behind the previous junction. In that case I'm not waiting around just because others don't know how to use the junction correctly.

It doesn't even look like there descent room beyond the junction for two lanes of traffic to merge properly.

It's not as bad it looks in the OPs picture, there's a decent bit of room to merge, unless someone tries to deliberately block you in, which has happened.

BeardyGit

The problem here is that the OP has used the junction for several years, knows the light sequence, and still puts himself in a position where he'll end up with the traffic in the right hand lane assuming they have priority. Sit in the right hand lane and you'll see the Dundrum bypass continues straight on from your position. Sit in the left hand lane and you'll see that one way or the other YOU will have to merge into the traffic coming through the junction in the right hand lane.

If it's happened to you twice in recent times, why keep putting yourself in a position where you feel vulnerable to traffic from the right assuming they have priority (which they do, technically, even in the absence of merge indicators)? Common sense dictates you put yourself in a defensive position on the roads, which would be in the right hand lane. Do so in future and you'll have less to complain about.

In the absence of clear road markings indicating you are 'right', apply common sense and show a little experience in understanding the likely behaviour of other road users. If you can't do that what's the point in wasting your time and energy complaining about anonymous road users who demonstrate a behaviour that conflicts with your own understanding of the rules as they apply to this junction? Would you not be better off contacting the council and/or RSA to raise the concern?

One of the key actions you can take to ensure your safety on the road is to follow the natural traffic course in a situation like this - Why make yourself an obstacle for other road users when there's no need?

Mr. Presentable

The premier rule of driving in Ireland is Drive on the left.

If there is only one car at the junction he should be in the left lane. Sadly if there is a car in the left lane other drivers can no longer see the road marking and assume it is left turn only.

Veloce

Fit a supercharger to your car Kermit- you won't have to worry about other users in the right lane you will have merged ahead of the que before the rest of them make it across the junction

RobAMerc

OP - you were clearly in the right as both lanes at the traffic lights is marked for going straight. If you were in front of the guys on your right you have every right to merge ahead of them. It's two lanes merging into one - not the left merging into the right. I'd love to be able to say I would have ignored him but I'd have done what you did and given it back to him. clearly he is unaware of the road markings.

On another note it's not only in cars. I cycled passed a lady on her bike crawling along in the cycle lane this morning. At the next lights she caught up with me and shouted "You are not aloud to pass someone in the cycle lane you know !". Of course it is love, clearly the law is there to be made up to prove you right in any situation !

kermitdfrog

Veloce wrote: »

Fit a supercharger to your car Kermit- you won't have to worry about other users in the right lane you will have merged ahead of the que before the rest of them make it across the junction

Haha, I like it! Actually, when you're at the front of the queue it tends to be ok as, expecting people to make the mistake of assuming I'm turning right I do tend to get our in front of them and thus avoid such instances.

RobAMerc wrote: »

On another note it's not only in cars. I cycled passed a lady on her bike crawling along in the cycle lane this morning. At the next lights she caught up with me and shouted "You are not aloud to pass someone in the cycle lane you know !". Of course it is love, clearly the law is there to be made up to prove you right in any situation !

That sums it up beautifully! People making up the law as they want it to be to prove them right. Love it! Speaking of which...

BeardyGit wrote: »

The problem here is that the OP has used the junction for several years, knows the light sequence, and still puts himself in a position where he'll end up with the traffic in the right hand lane assuming they have priority. Sit in the right hand lane and you'll see the Dundrum bypass continues straight on from your position. Sit in the left hand lane and you'll see that one way or the other YOU will have to merge into the traffic coming through the junction in the right hand lane.

If it's happened to you twice in recent times, why keep putting yourself in a position where you feel vulnerable to traffic from the right assuming they have priority (which they do, technically, even in the absence of merge indicators)? Common sense dictates you put yourself in a defensive position on the roads, which would be in the right hand lane. Do so in future and you'll have less to complain about.

In the absence of clear road markings indicating you are 'right', apply common sense and show a little experience in understanding the likely behaviour of other road users. If you can't do that what's the point in wasting your time and energy complaining about anonymous road users who demonstrate a behaviour that conflicts with your own understanding of the rules as they apply to this junction? Would you not be better off contacting the council and/or RSA to raise the concern?

One of the key actions you can take to ensure your safety on the road is to follow the natural traffic course in a situation like this - Why make yourself an obstacle for other road users when there's no need?

Please tell me you are not serious? So I should delay myself, add further to the traffic and congestion, all because someone may get ratty? Don't be daft. I drive that junction every day and get beeps/lights flashing a lot - doesn't bother me. Like you say, and in this you are right, one should always be defensive and expect the worst. I do, and I don't let people who don't use the lane correctly bother me. That doesn't mean I should make the same mistakes they are either, mind. People middle-lane hog on the M50 all the time, should we all do so because other's do, because it is the "natural traffic course"?

I do show common sense, I do show experience and hence why I will always be aware of the other lane and where/if the likely gaps suitable for merging are. There is no absense of clear road markings, they are very clear but even so, because of my common sense and experience I presume the other drivers haven't been observant enough to realise that and drive carefully as a result. It's because I drive carefully and defensively I wasn't run off the road in both of the above incidents, because I saw them coming and was able to react.

The natural flow of the traffic doesn't mean jack. I am no obstacle. As for why I came here - because I wanted to vent and discuss. It's a forum for such things.

Finally, in case you haven't got it yet (though it's been laid out in detail - in the first post I even specifically said "Annoying, but not the end of the world and not the problem I'm getting at."), the main issue is not drivers using the junction correctly (that's a pet peeve but not really much of an issue). It's drivers who then try to run me off the road with aggressive driving and minor road rage. If you don't think that's an issue and would rather focus on how you THINK we should use the junction, rather than how we are supposed to, then be my guest.

BeardyGit

Firstly, I'm not making up the law - Cop yourself on now, will you?

If you know the junction, regularly get beeped and flashed by other drivers, couldn't care less either way, adopt a self righteous attitude in such circumstances and remain ignorant of the fact you're compromising yourself by taking the left hand lane when the bulk of traffic naturally positions itself on your right, you're not being very sensible in your approach.

The whole point is that YOU are putting yourself in the situation you're taking issue with in regard to bullying tactics adopted by taxi drivers and the like. You're a martyr for the rules of the road I'm guessing.....Good luck with that!

bijapos

BeardyGit wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not making up the law - Cop yourself on now, will you?

If you know the junction, regularly get beeped and flashed by other drivers, couldn't care less either way, adopt a self righteous attitude in such circumstances and remain ignorant of the fact you're compromising yourself by taking the left hand lane when the bulk of traffic naturally positions itself on your right, you're not being very sensible in your approach.

The whole point is that YOU are putting yourself in the situation you're taking issue with in regard to bullying tactics adopted by taxi drivers and the like. You're a martyr for the rules of the road I'm guessing.....Good luck with that!

What would you suggest a total stranger does at this junction. They see the road markings and take up a position in the left lane to go straight ahead. You think its fair game for them to be bullied out of it? You think they are at fault for putting themselves in a position to be bullied? Both lanes are allowed to drive ahead, it doesn't matter a toss what the light change sequence is. The only ones at fault here are the ones who attempt to force someone off the road or force them to make an emergency braking manouvere. The twats dont deserve to be on the road.