Mid air collision at Duxford - with happy ending.

Growler!!!

Taken from the Daily Mail website:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013219/Display-pilots-incredible-escape-World-War-Two-fighter-bails-mid-air-collision-airshow.html

Some amazing pics.

chughes

Was in Duxford a few years ago for an air show. A fantastic place.

Sorry to hear about the P51 but thankfully the pilot is OK.

Blue Punto

Sad to see another warbird lost this year but everyone is alive

Nissan doctor

Glad to hear everyone is ok.

I still remember the migs mid air collision in fairford. Whenever I think of it I still get that same feeling in the pit of my stomach:(

Turbulent Bill

Old warbirds seem to have a poor safety record at airshows, and accidents with these are usually pilot errors (the B-17 that burned out recently being an exception). Don't want to be ageist about it, but the pilots are usually old - is there any causation between age and accidents?

Blue Punto

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

Old warbirds seem to have a poor safety record at airshows, and accidents with these are usually pilot errors (the B-17 that burned out recently being an exception). Don't want to be ageist about it, but the pilots are usually old - is there any causation between age and accidents?

Dont think either of the pilots in this incident were "old"
The P-51 pilot flies for SAC according to reports and was seen in a bar not long after the incident(do you blame him)

The Skyraider pilot also looks far from "old" in the pictures

Nforce

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_A4xdGFXoE

Sterling Archer

Edit--- Arg Nforce was 2 mins ahead of me

Nforce

Some zoomed in pics of the collision here...

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1772315&postcount=226

RadioRetro

I'll miss Big Beautiful Doll. Thankfully the pilot got out and is okay.

280special

Scary stuff. Great to hear both pilots are ok,but bloody sad to see a fine old aircraft lost.

The age of the pilots has nothing to do with it. What about the skill that resulted in the safe landing of the skyraider ? what about the way the P-51 pilot initially managed to hold the aircraft despite what must have been catastropic damage? And both of them did exceedingly well considering that they were at a very low level which severley reduced their options.

The age of the aircraft has nothing to do with it, these aircraft in most cases have been rebuilt/renovated to almost unbeleivable standards. Unfortunately aviation realted accidents happen, and not just to historic aircraft;

http://aviation.globalincidentmap.com/

Cant speak for the accuracy of this date and I wonder why the turtles in New York got a mention !!

Outkast_IRE

well any accident in an airshow is always going to be publicised to the last , i think alot of the guys involved in this type of show are seriously skilled and wouldnt fly themselves in these shows in formations etc if they lost their edge.

Delancey

Truly the Skyraider was built like a brick shithouse and this accident just goes to prove that , in Vietnam those planes took incredible ground fire and still came home.

Turbulent Bill

Blue Punto wrote: »

Dont think either of the pilots in this incident were "old"
The P-51 pilot flies for SAC according to reports and was seen in a bar not long after the incident(do you blame him)

The Skyraider pilot also looks far from "old" in the pictures

280special wrote: »

The age of the pilots has nothing to do with it. What about the skill that resulted in the safe landing of the skyraider ? what about the way the P-51 pilot initially managed to hold the aircraft despite what must have been catastropic damage? And both of them did exceedingly well considering that they were at a very low level which severley reduced their options.

Fair and reasonable points, taken. I was thinking back to a previous P-51 loss I saw (on TV) where two Mustangs were landing in formation and one clipped another - killed one pilot, destroyed one Mustang and seriously damaged the other. The landing just seemed like an idiotic thing even to attempt, and I put it down to older pilots loosing their skills, but I suppose a younger pilot could have done the same thing.

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

well any accident in an airshow is always going to be publicised to the last , i think alot of the guys involved in this type of show are seriously skilled and wouldnt fly themselves in these shows in formations etc if they lost their edge.

That's the thing - how do they know when they're not good enough? The Red Arrows have rigourous checks on there pilots and only fly within the team, whereas privateer vintage pilots formation fly without any real structure.

Nforce

A much better quality video of the collision is available here.. http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

Joe 90

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

Fair and reasonable points, taken. I was thinking back to a previous P-51 loss I saw (on TV) where two Mustangs were landing in formation and one clipped another - killed one pilot, destroyed one Mustang and seriously damaged the other. The landing just seemed like an idiotic thing even to attempt, and I put it down to older pilots loosing their skills, but I suppose a younger pilot could have done the same thing.



That's the thing - how do they know when they're not good enough? The Red Arrows have rigourous checks on there pilots and only fly within the team, whereas privateer vintage pilots formation fly without any real structure.

I would assume that as we get older our reactions slow but greater experience compensates. Not just flying, driving as well. Going by insurance costs for younger drivers Vs older drivers the experience more than compensates.

Nforce

An interview with the pilot of the P-51...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLQsJS7zQOM

jmayo

Growler!!! wrote: »

Taken from the Daily Mail website:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013219/Display-pilots-incredible-escape-World-War-Two-fighter-bails-mid-air-collision-airshow.html

Some amazing pics.

Great pics.

I wouldn't say it was a completly happy ending.
There is one less beautiful P51 in the world.

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

Old warbirds seem to have a poor safety record at airshows, and accidents with these are usually pilot errors (the B-17 that burned out recently being an exception). Don't want to be ageist about it, but the pilots are usually old - is there any causation between age and accidents?

You are being ageist both about pilots and aircraft.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason for crashes at airshows is what the pilots are doing with the aircraft ?
These aircraft hit each other.

Most of these old warbirds are in way better nick than the piles of junk half their age down at the local aeroclub.

Some of these aircraft are damm hard to fly, being old or young doesn't matter, it is a matter of experience.

BTW did you ever hear "there are old pilots, there are bold pilots but there are very few old and bold pilots" ?

Delancey wrote: »

Truly the Skyraider was built like a brick shithouse and this accident just goes to prove that , in Vietnam those planes took incredible ground fire and still came home.

Moral of the story buy a Skyraider and not a Mustang ?
If only that was one of my dilemmas.

Turbulent Bill

jmayo wrote: »

You are being ageist both about pilots and aircraft.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason for crashes at airshows is what the pilots are doing with the aircraft ?
These aircraft hit each other.

Most of these old warbirds are in way better nick than the piles of junk half their age down at the local aeroclub.

Some of these aircraft are damm hard to fly, being old or young doesn't matter, it is a matter of experience.

BTW did you ever hear "there are old pilots, there are bold pilots but there are very few old and bold pilots" ?

I've already taken the point the pilot age wasn't a factor, and that accidents (on the whole) are pilot-induced rather than mechanical failures. I agree that most warbirds are excellently maintained, as well or better as they were in combat service.

However, if they are so difficult to fly, why do it in formation at airshows at all, with thousands of people at risk below? I'm aware they use particular flightlines etc. but it's still a risk in terms of collisions. The pilots in the Mustang/Skyraider incident were obviously very experienced individually, but how much practice is done on formation work?

Don't get me wrong, I love old warbirds and formation flying at airshows, just want to see the best displays that don't endanger the pilots, aircraft or spectators.

xflyer

No doubt the accident report will reveal all but it seems to me that the P51 pilot failed to carry out the full run and break procedure. It is designed to break up formations safely and sequence the aircraft for landing.

Watch the video and you'll see that in the previous formation the lead broke up and hard left, the standard three seconds later he was followed by the number two, three seconds later number three.

In the accident formation, the P51 broke left and up but he failed to maintain the turn, three seconds later the Skyraider broke left and up. He would have expected the Mustang to be ahead of him. He was blind in the turn. The last thing he would have expected was to find him where he hit him. That's exactly the point of the run-in and break, it's supposed to keep aircraft separated.

For whatever reason the Mustang pilot didn't maintain his turn. The Skyraider caught up with him because of that. I wonder what the brief for the break at Duxford was. Was the P51 pilot correct and the the Skyraider pilot wrong? He didn't seem to break early.

Very unfortunate whatever the reason.

EchoIndia

I read elsewhere that at Duxford, in order to avoid Duxford village (which is SE of the field), the run and break does not involve an immediate turn to downwind, but rather an initial 90-degree turn, followed by the rest of the turn once south of the village.

xflyer

Aha, thank you that makes sense, the thick plottens, could this be a case of nimbyism causing an accident. You would think that if you lived in Duxford, given that the airfield has been there forever, you might be used to aeroplanes.

So if the Skyraider pilot didn't follow the plan then it's possible he turned too soon. Interesting.

But I await the full AAIB report.