Garda Clampdown targets RLJs; how about bike thieves too?

Moflojo

There has been noticeable attention given by the Garda to the misdemeanors of certain cyclists around Dublin city in recent months and it has to be said that much of this extra attention is justified. (Please read on, don't derail thread just yet!)

However, how about the Garda also launching a clampdown on bicycle theft in the city to complement the traffic offences operation? It would involve the same kind of manpower and time, hanging around hotspots acting as a deterrent rather than an enforcer. The most useful thing they could do is just to hang around busy bike stands and tell people when they've locked their bikes incorrectly or their locks are insufficient. And possibly encourage people to register their bikes at a local Garda station?

It would probably save the Garda a bit of time and hassle in the long run. Anyone know if they have done anything like this recently?

Joeyde

Moflojo wrote: »

And possibly encourage people to register their bikes at a local Garda station?

Don't follow you here? Do you mean after its stolen?

Lumen

Moflojo wrote: »

The most useful thing they could do is just to hang around busy bike stands and tell people when they've locked their bikes incorrectly or their locks are insufficient.

That would be a crazy waste of (very expensive) Garda time, saving people's BSOs from their own ignorance and laziness.

Dublin has some serious crime problems (i.e. crimes against the person) that are far more deserving of attention.

Cookie_Monster

Joeyde wrote: »

Don't follow you here? Do you mean after its stolen?

no, so they have the chassis number on file so if it is recovered after being stolen they can get it back to you.

-Chris-

Unfortunately you can't clampdown on everything at the same time, invariably you'll end up clamping down on something without being able to provide a counterpoint clampdown.


I don't think the criticism is valid.

kumate_champ07

Petty criminals need cash for drugs, bike crime goes down-muggings go up, thats how I see it. Stealing bikes is non violent so a more 'acceptable' crime

TinyExplosions

Moflojo wrote: »

It would probably save the Garda a bit of time and hassle in the long run. Anyone know if they have done anything like this recently?

Punter: "Guard, I have had my bike stolen"
Guard: "Well now, that's terrible, but there's not much we can do, be on your way"

Not a lot of time and hassle there...

tomasrojo

It would be good for the bike shops to stop selling cable locks without warning customers that they're no good on their own.

Other than that, it would nice if there were a few robust, vandal-proof noticeboards at a few stands here and there with advice on securely locking bikes, and maybe cycling-related news.

I don't know if anyone here has ever been down to their last few quid, but I have numerous times, and even if you own a BSO, it can be a heavy blow to have your bike stolen and wonder how you're going to replace it. I agree that there are some risible attempts at locking bikes in Dublin, but we aren't born with the knowledge of how to lock bikes securely.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

That would be a crazy waste of (very expensive) Garda time, saving people's BSOs from their own ignorance and laziness.

Dublin has some serious crime problems (i.e. crimes against the person) that are far more deserving of attention.

I disagree, Zero tolerance approach to theft prevents the large crimes. Its the smaller crimes like bike theft that keeps thiefs going on a day to day basis. Followed by larger scale house break ins etc.

Clamping down on smaller crimes such as this / public intoxication has a proven track record in large cities, New York for instance.

Lumen

listermint wrote: »

I disagree, Zero tolerance approach to theft prevents the large crimes. Its the smaller crimes like bike theft that keeps thiefs going on a day to day basis. Followed by larger scale house break ins etc.

Clamping down on smaller crimes such as this / public intoxication has a proven track record in large cities, New York for instance.

Maybe you should re-read the bit I was responding to.

tomasrojo

Wikipedia has a page on zero tolerance (naturally). It claims that it isn't very effective, but I have no idea how accurate the page is.

In New York, the decline of crimes rate started well before Rudy Giuliani came to power, in 1993, and none of the decreasing processes had particular inflection under him.[13][14] In the same period of time, the decrease in crime was the same in the other major US cities, even those with an opposite security policy; finally, in the years 1984-7 New York already experienced a policy similar to Giuliani's one, but it faced a crime increase instead.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance

The very awkward phrasing of that paragraph doesn't inspire confidence.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

Maybe you should re-read the bit I was responding to.

Noted, That part is non a sensical waste of money.

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

Wikipedia has a page on zero tolerance (naturally). It claims that it isn't very effective, but I have no idea how accurate the page is.

FWIW, Gladwell covered Levitt's "legalised abortion cuts crime" theory in Freakonomics, since rather debunked:

http://www.economist.com/node/5246700?story_id=5246700

TinyExplosions

tomasrojo wrote: »

Wikipedia has a page on zero tolerance (naturally). It claims that it isn't very effective, but I have no idea how accurate the page is.

Well we all know that from reading Freakonomics, the decline in crime in New York had nothing to do with zero tolerance, and everything to do with the legalization of abortion in the 70's, leading to less neglected kids being born!

Damnit, Lumen beat me to it...

tomasrojo

The most criticism the Freakanomics people ever got was for commissioning crash tests comparing child restraint mechanisms and standard seat belts.

(They used crash-test dummies, not children, in case you're wondering whether that was the source of the outrage!)

Before that, child-restraint mechanisms were always compared with no restraint of any kind. When compared with just using the adult seat belts on children, the restraint mechanisms didn't do all that much better for children over two.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2005/07/10/freakonomics-in-the-times-magazine-the-seat-belt-solution/

Again, not sure how good their work is here. It probably is valuable in highlighting that the child restraints are given the softest test possible -- they're better than nothing, you know!

tomasrojo

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/magazine/10FREAK.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&ei=5070&en=641c83d4b0668293&ex=1189915200

Interesting: it is estimated that 80% of child-restraint systems are improperly installed.

To drag myself slightly more on-topic, it is estimated that over 90% of cycle helmets are improperly fitted.

These high percentages are either a damning indictment of product usability testing, or the mechanical ability of the average member of the public. Or both. Or something else. They're amazingly high anyway!

Lumen

So anyway, if Ireland legalises abortion, will that reduce the risk of our bikes getting nicked?

Jawgap

I think clamping down on RLJ'ing etc contrbutes to saving lives, reducing injuries etc.

Preventing / detecting bike theft is a property based crime - even if it is junkies nicking the bikes, they'll just go nick something else if they can't get a bike, meaning it's a low priority for the Guards (which it really should be).

I worked in a UK city in Community Safety when the local police commander adopted a strategy based on zero tolerance / "broken windows theory, following the "success" of New York . It worked for us, but mainly because we displaced the anti-social and criminal activity to less intensely policed areas - the headline crime rate barely changed for the wider area. It did, however, have a measurable impact on the fear of crime (reduced it significantly) and the positive percpetion of the local police - in other words, it's good PR.

I think further study showed that New York's achievement had more to do with a local economic boom, than effective policing.

Piercemeear

Has there been a big clampdown on RLJs? I have not seen much evidence, despite cycling in Dublin daily. I am very much in favour of a strong clampdown on RLJumping.

I think more education about bike locks would be great, as Tomasrojo suggested. Not sure how that could be performed, but I've yet to hear a story of a bike in Dublin being stolen while locked with a U-lock + supportive cable lock.

Peterx

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Punter: "Guard, I have had my bike stolen"
Guard: "Well now, that's terrible, but there's not much we can do, be on your way"

Not a lot of time and hassle there...

My girlfriends race bike was recently taken from her car. She went to the nearest Garda station (on foot) to report it. The Gardai took the car away on a flatbed for finger printing.
They did the best they could for her. Plenty of time and hassle.

HivemindXX

Piercemeear wrote: »

Has there been a big clampdown on RLJs? I have not seen much evidence, despite cycling in Dublin daily. I am very much in favour of a strong clampdown on RLJumping.

There was mention in the press a few months ago about a clampdown. I've not seen much evidence of this myself but then I don't go through red lights.

Piercemeear wrote: »

I think more education about bike locks would be great, as Tomasrojo suggested. Not sure how that could be performed, but I've yet to hear a story of a bike in Dublin being stolen while locked with a U-lock + supportive cable lock.

Well since the general opinion is that cable locks aren't worth anything it's just the U-locks which are supposedly protecting the bikes. I've heard plenty of stories of people losing their bikes when they were locked with a good U-lock.

TinyExplosions

Peterx wrote: »

My girlfriends race bike was recently taken from her car. She went to the nearest Garda station (on foot) to report it. The Gardai took the car away on a flatbed for finger printing.
They did the best they could for her. Plenty of time and hassle.

That is probably a very different outcome from someone having a BSO nicked from a rack on Parnell St... the more expensive the item stolen, the more effort will be accorded to the report I suspect (be that right or wrong)

Piercemeear

HivemindXX wrote: »

Well since the general opinion is that cable locks aren't worth anything it's just the U-locks which are supposedly protecting the bikes. I've heard plenty of stories of people losing their bikes when they were locked with a good U-lock.

My understanding was that the near-useless cable lock paired with the U-lock increased effectiveness as the thief needed two different types of tools to break both. I've always used Hal's videos as my guide on bike locking.

Now it could be that the two-lock approach is rare enough that anecdotes of theft despite them are similarly rare. It could also be that if everyone began using a U-lock and a cable lock tomorrow that thieves would just resort to stealing these bikes (a kind of lock/thief arms race). But in general I feel fairly comfortable locking up most places in Dublin city centre, and the majority of folks (but not all) reporting thefts here admit to using a crappy lock.

(Statistics on lock types/thefts would be the holy grail. Even just compiling from theft reports on boards.ie.)

cdaly_

Piercemeear wrote: »

(Statistics on lock types/thefts would be the holy grail. Even just compiling from theft reports on boards.ie.)

Go on then. I look forward to your results...