Here's some interesting terminology for you...

Asry

I've noticed there's always some debate going on as to the words used both by ourselves to describe ourselves and by others to describe us, and when I came across this, I thought I might as well ask yous what yous thought.

So I was on cervicalcheck.ie checking the register or whatnot and when I was perusing the FAQ section (as you do...) I came across this:

Should women who have sex with women have a smear test?

Yes, screening recommendations do not differ for women who sleep with women or lesbians regardless of their history with men.

That's ... confusing? conflicted? liberating?

What do you make of it?

rainbow kirby

Since not every woman who sleeps with women ID's as a lesbian - it's just covering all bases.

Asry

but in so many cases, they would have just used the word 'lesbian' and left it at that. I thought it was quite nice, really, for the distinction

locohobo

Should women who have sex with women have a smear test?

Yes, screening recommendations do not differ for (i) women who sleep with women or (ii) lesbians regardless of their history with men....


(i) Bisexual women??

(ii) Women only??

Annasopra

They use the term MSM ( men who have sex with.men ) a lot in medical circles. It is used because not all men who have sex with men would identify as gay and medical want to try and get contact with all such people for outreach to prevent STIs

Annasopra

locohobo wrote: »

Should women who have sex with women have a smear test?

Yes of course

Asry

locohobo wrote: »

(i) Bisexual women??

(ii) Women only??

I guess that depends on what someone would define as bisexual, or if you would define yourself as bisexual. If you've had a one-off thing with a woman, does that make you bi? I guess just saying women who have sex with women is better. WSW I like that actually. Yay I found a new label for myself! Now to make a pride flag....

locohobo

Asry wrote: »

I guess that depends on what someone would define as bisexual, or if you would define yourself as bisexual. If you've had a one-off thing with a woman, does that make you bi? I guess just saying women who have sex with women is better. WSW I like that actually. Yay I found a new label for myself! Now to make a pride flag....

Bisexual...Having sexual relations with both women and men. Even if a once off still shows bisexual tendencies(sp)??

Printemps93

All women should have a smear test regardless of who they choose to romp

Aishae

eh - i dont think std's etc discrimate based on who you sleep with (im being a bit facetious)
if youve been sexually active then the risk is there

i think theyre just covering all bases. i wouldnt say it was a common occurance but it wouldnt surprise me if someone read the FAQ and it had this to say: yes lesbians should be tested.... and then go think 'ah well, ive only slept with a girl. im not a lesbian. so i dont need testing.
i guess with medical pamphlets etc they have found the need to state things as clearly as humanly possible

wonderfulname

Aishae, in this instance the test is for cervical cancer, but you bring up an interesting point on safe sex awareness for WSW, are we/they/whatever as aware as they should be about it? There seems to be a perception that because you haven't had someones genitalia inside you you're grand... perhaps a topic for another conversation...

Aishae

but isnt cervical cancer caused by changes in the cervix caused by std or sti's - which is why they do it when you become sexually active?

that aside - i was thinking the same thing about safe sex

Annasopra

Aishae wrote: »

eh - i dont think std's etc discrimate based on who you sleep with (im being a bit facetious)
if youve been sexually active then the risk is there

Huh? Do lesbians/WSW not have lower risk of catching STIs?

wonderfulname

Yes, but there is still a risk, and I get the impression many women feel there is none, especially younger ones, could be wrong though it's just my impression.

baby and crumble

Yeah, I just did up an info leaflet on this, would you believe? Women who have never had penetrative sex with a man are less likely to develop the HPV virus, which is determined to cause cervical cancer in most cases.

However, changes can occur but before the age of 25 these changes can usually be attributed to natural changes in the cervical wall which can give a false positive result, which is why the cervical check scheme is rolled out at age 25, regardless of sexual activity.

So many lesbians don't have a clue about safe sex practices, like using dental dams, condoms on sex toys, etc. Seems like there's a huge push to educate young gay men on safe sex but nothing comparable with lesbians. Lesbians can spread 99% of STI'S. It's less likely as there is generally less exchange of bodily fluids (unless you're doing something REALLY right )

Asry

yeah I haven't been known for my incredibly safe use of the gay side of me.


...Interpret that as you will? I have no idea what the hell I meant really. My gay side is so hot it's LETHAL?? I never use protection? None of the above or all of those colours at once, sir?

It is late and I need to be lying down now.

Bottle_of_Smoke

baby and crumble wrote: »

Yeah, I just did up an info leaflet on this, would you believe? Women who have never had penetrative sex with a man are less likely to develop the HPV virus, which is determined to cause cervical cancer in most cases.

However, changes can occur but before the age of 25 these changes can usually be attributed to natural changes in the cervical wall which can give a false positive result, which is why the cervical check scheme is rolled out at age 25, regardless of sexual activity.

So many lesbians don't have a clue about safe sex practices, like using dental dams, condoms on sex toys, etc. Seems like there's a huge push to educate young gay men on safe sex but nothing comparable with lesbians. Lesbians can spread 99% of STI'S. It's less likely as there is generally less exchange of bodily fluids (unless you're doing something REALLY right )

ITs more important with gay men because of the heightened occurence of HIV and more serious stds.

Lesbians are more than covered by the general sti messages aimed at straight people. They are even far less likely than straight women to catch something.

On the main topic. There's no need to say lesbian. not all women are lesbians but all lesbians are women

BanzaiBk

Get tested/screened people!

baby and crumble wrote:

It's less likely as there is generally less exchange of bodily fluids (unless you're doing something REALLY right )

Lesbian high five :cool:

Annasopra

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Lesbians are more than covered by the general sti messages aimed at straight people.

Are they? Im really not so sure about that at all. Ive seen a lot of ignorance about lesbian sexual like assumptions that low risk = no risk

baby and crumble

I definitely think that lesbians are not covered in general STI advertsing. Even if you simply look at ads in mainstream and gay literature. Lots of ads featuring guys hooking up, and straight couples, but very little featuring 2 women. You can't even get dental dams in chemists or regular shops, they're only sold in sex shops. Unlikely some 17 or 18 year old lesbian is going to go in there to get them.

Plus, the advertising in tv is the 'stop!' campaign, which is based around contraceptive uses. That's not anything to do with stopping the spread of STIs.

Plus dont forget, when you sleep with someone, you're sleeping with everyone thy have slept with, and that they have slept with and so on... A lot of women who identify as lesbian now may well have slept with a man in the past, therefore heightening their chances of having an STI thy is easy passed between men and women.

You may think that HIV is the only one with big consequences, but that's not true. Pretty much all STIs carry the risk of infertility, which when you're an 18 year old radical lesbian mightn't seem like a big deal, but who knows where your future will bring you? It's just not worth the risk.

Bottle_of_Smoke

baby and crumble wrote: »

I definitely think that lesbians are not covered in general STI advertsing. Even if you simply look at ads in mainstream and gay literature. Lots of ads featuring guys hooking up, and straight couples, but very little featuring 2 women. You can't even get dental dams in chemists or regular shops, they're only sold in sex shops. Unlikely some 17 or 18 year old lesbian is going to go in there to get them.

Plus, the advertising in tv is the 'stop!' campaign, which is based around contraceptive uses. That's not anything to do with stopping the spread of STIs.

Plus dont forget, when you sleep with someone, you're sleeping with everyone thy have slept with, and that they have slept with and so on... A lot of women who identify as lesbian now may well have slept with a man in the past, therefore heightening their chances of having an STI thy is easy passed between men and women.

You may think that HIV is the only one with big consequences, but that's not true. Pretty much all STIs carry the risk of infertility, which when you're an 18 year old radical lesbian mightn't seem like a big deal, but who knows where your future will bring you? It's just not worth the risk.

all stis do not carry a risk of infertility and the ones that do aren't even likely to cause infertility, would be a minority of cases. anyway i was just pointing out that is the reason why gay men are targeted more intensely, not that it was the only std with big consequences. Herpes has pretty huge social consequences for an individual even though in medical terms its not a big deal.

I know there is potential risk for chlamydia and gonorrhea for lesbians, but its really low, really really low.

stis have a real habit of being overblown on the internet. go on the PI forum any time someone mentions anything to do with sex you'll have a ream of posters screaming "get tested for stis" even if there's nothing to suggest the poster did anything risky

all the same, I am very surprised chemists do not stock dental dams. They should be displayed beside condoms/lube

Have a feeling no one would buy them though, how many straight couples use them? (or condoms for fellatio)

Aishae

ive encountered a LOT of people who do not think lesbians need to practice safe sex. because there is no penetration involved. it just didnt occur to them that the exchange of body fluids is the key there. and for example: using a vibrator without a condom or cleaning it between uses on both partners

if an sti is left untreated the damage it can do increases.

i understand that getting safe sex practises across to gay men is important because HIV is much more devestating.
but safe sex is something everyone needs to be aware of (and how it applies to them) regardless of them being straight, gay, lesbian or even just someone who shares their sex toys. theres no reason not to cover everything.

as for general sti / safe sex warnings covering lesbians - i think the problem is the lesbians may not know that if they arent told. as well as that, i dont think general warnings do. people arent generally told about safe use of a toy on more than one person.

i know itd be a bit much to expect school sex education to cover gay sex too. they barely do enough with straight sex ive found (at present) but these pamphlets and advertisements could do more for people.

Asry

I had my first smear test! TMI dear Jesus, say all of you

But I think that as women who sleep with women become more visible and people realise that more of them (us) exist than people might think, things will change.

baby and crumble

It's like when drs ask me if I'm sexually active. I'll always say yes, but with women. It's important doctors see lesbians as a visible category with health needs of our own.

It also makes for amusing moments when they get uncomfortable. Luckily I'm pretty secure in being gay and that being common knowledge, but I can understand how that might not be a possibility for everyone.

wonderfulname

baby and crumble wrote: »

It's like when drs ask me if I'm sexually active. I'll always say yes, but with women...

As will I, saves the pregnancy talk, or most of it anyway (my doc has a big thing about pregnancy!), interestingly enough she even brushes the topic of STDs aside as soon as is reminded of that, and I have a damn good doctor. If an attentive, and up to date doctor believes lesbians are safe from STDs then what does that say about awareness in general?

Bottle_of_Smoke, you argue lesbians are more than covered by the message sent out to straight people, I don't see how when the message sent out to straight people pretty much amounts to "wrap your micky!", it has some relevance to gay men but next to none for gay women.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I largely agree with what Aishae just posted. I can just understand why there isn't a huge campaign for a tiny low risk portion of society.

The general ads recommend practising safe sex. They say to always use protection. Point being that if I as a straight male am aware there is a risk for lesbians, surely most lesbians would know it too. Surely sex toys come with warnings about hygiene.

Dental dams? Good idea I guess, but I just reckon they wouldn't be used, even with a campaign.

At the risk of drifting off topic - another issue is I think the campaigns tend to be useless. They're always just about prevention of stis. Whilst nothing wrong with that in itself, I think they should focus far more hammering home the idea of getting tested, normalising it as something everyone who is sexually active should do. you see that a bit more on UK campaigns.

If I had to make an ad it would mostly be around testing, and would show straight/gay and lesbian couples.

Kanoe

The hpv risk factor is a genuinely scary thought, rates of mouth/throat cancer are shown to be higher in lesbians than in other women. Having been through the process continuously since a young woman in her twenties I am absolutely aware of the importance of regular smears..and the prevalence of hpv in our society.
I'd like to think it's as easy as being smart about who your with and taking responsibility for your own and perhaps your partners sexual health but that often leaves little room for fun and in cases of spontaneous funness who's going to be carrying dams for protection. Might as well just put a bag on your head.

baby and crumble

Kanoe wrote: »

I'd like to think it's as easy as being smart about who your with and taking responsibility for your own and perhaps your partners sexual health but that often leaves little room for fun and in cases of spontaneous funness who's going to be carrying dams for protection. Might as well just put a bag on your head.

Clingfilm. Every kitchen has some. :cool:

Kanoe

I can imagine drunkenly wrapping someone up like a sandwich after a few "it's for your protection girl"

jaffacakesyum

I agree there should be more awareness around safe sex for lesbians, well i should say 'women who have sex with women' But to be honest, even if there were, I don't think dental dams would be used widely. I know i don't like the idea of using them. I know that's a really stupid attitude to have but don't worry Im not sexually active with women (not for want of trying :P). If i were id be sure that partner was tested. As kanoe said, the incidence of throat cancer etc from oral sex is scary

Kanoe

I have spent the last five minutes contemplating cling film scenarios.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Just in case people don't realise its a joke, cling film is not an adequate replacement!

Kanoe

but if you do find yourself spontaneously holding a roll of clingfilm make sure you leave airholes

baby and crumble

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Just in case people don't realise its a joke, cling film is not an adequate replacement!

Actually, the non-microwavable kind is ok, as it isn't porous. But if pushed you should probably use a condom or latex glove, as I think Irish clingfilm is generally the porous kind:

http://www.sgfelken.com/dams_explain.html

wonderfulname

Kanoe wrote: »

but if you do find yourself spontaneously holding a roll of clingfilm make sure you leave airholes

Whatever you're in to Kanoe...

On the subject of dental dams, they aren't just for lesbians, straight men care about the sexual needs of their partners nowadays, or so I'm told, there is a heavy emphasis placed on pregnancy and HIV in save sex information which leaves matters such as this largely ignored. Perhaps oral sex is seen as a kink rather than something the majority of people will partake in at some point, I don't know, or maybe it's the stereotype of the male as the instigator and the one who bears most of the responsibility when it comes to contraception, at any rate informing the public, or teens in school, about it doesn't necessarily have to come from a gay perspective. Gay males will now grow up knowing the importance of condoms even if they never come across information aimed specifically at them, surely it should be the same for WSW?

Kanoe

oh come on ffs...

those little fúcking dots say so much...

women do seem to be more conditioned to taking responsibilty of their own sexual health. I know this doesn't negate the need for awareness on some issues but generally women are more inclined to visit their doctors than men and are encouraged to have regular screenings. I might be generalising but promiscuity tends to factor higher with msm and in keeping with the stereotype, lesbians are more likely to be in long term relationships with fewer partners.
As I'm making all this up I don't have stats to back up my theory but the internet is a fruitful place and I'd probably find something apt if I could be bothered looking.

anyway, it appears in the realms of health promotion (which I studied coinkidinkly) WSW are are happy, healthy, capable and responsible element of society who don't require guidelines.

Kanoe

lets wrap our heads in cellophane and protest

baby and crumble

wonderfulname wrote: »

Whatever you're in to Kanoe...

Perhaps oral sex is seen as a kink rather than something the majority of people will partake in at some point

Oral sex is a kink? Whoa, I'm fierce kinky so!

I think I just shared too much... But as for dental dams, they should be used for any cunnilingus, or analingus too, regardless of genders involved, if they are new partners and haven't been tested. but that message doesn't get out there, really. Shame.

Printemps93

baby and crumble wrote: »

Oral sex is a kink? Whoa, I'm fierce kinky so!

I think like a fierce kink haha

Aishae

its funny - id never even heard of dental dams till i saw b and c mention them on another thread. luckily for me i havent had to worry about those yet. but it goes to show how little info is out there on safe sex. its as if it centres around condoms and the pill and as we know the latter only helps prevent pregnancy not sti's so the info is woefully lacking

Unconvinced

Asry wrote: »

I've noticed there's always some debate going on as to the words used both by ourselves to describe ourselves and by others to describe us, and when I came across this, I thought I might as well ask yous what yous thought.

So I was on cervicalcheck.ie checking the register or whatnot and when I was perusing the FAQ section (as you do...) I came across this:



That's ... confusing? conflicted? liberating?

What do you make of it?

My understanding is that the terms WSW and MSM were coined by UNAIDS (the response of the UN to AIDS that first emerged in the early-'90s). The Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) and UNAIDS published 'HIV/AIDS and Human Rights International Guidelines' in 1998 where these terms were first used for international fora in a human rights context (i.e. to inform policy, funding and access to health). The point was to get away from any identity politics and to simply focus on the risk element of sexual practice, rather than how one identifies in oneself. In sub-sahara africa, asia, south america and other cultures the term 'lesbian' or 'gay' or 'transgender' are simply alien and western and in fact, politically work against the health cause because of political opposition to such 'concepts' of sexuality. So WSW is an international term - one that levels all populations - and allows an international language to evolve without the distraction of 'identity' claims. In human rights terms WSW covers all circumstances, and allows an evenness in gathering, monitoring and evaluating data in women's (sexual and reproductive health).

Printemps93

Aishae wrote: »

its funny - id never even heard of dental dams till i saw b and c mention them on another thread. luckily for me i havent had to worry about those yet.

Nor have I heard of them .... please enlighten me

Annasopra

Printemps93 wrote: »

Nor have I heard of them .... please enlighten me

its a sheet of latex that you place over the vagina when performing oral sex

Kanoe

Printemps93 wrote: »

Nor have I heard of them .... please enlighten me

They're not as readily as available as condoms but this will give you an idea (and substitutes)

http://www.santepub-mtl.qc.ca/its/shigellose/dam.html

Printemps93

Kanoe wrote: »

They're not as readily as available as condoms but this will give you an idea (and substitutes)

http://www.santepub-mtl.qc.ca/its/shigellose/dam.html

I hope your not hinting that i bring rubber gloves and a scissors to the bathroom on saturday