Rule of Law, or Mods?

Yahew

The Americans say they are ruled by laws, not men.

Of course men enforce the rules, but the statement assumes that the laws exist prior to being enforced by the police, not that the police can make it up as they go along.

It seems to be accepted that boards acts differently: take a recent case in A&A. In this case it was a guy posting a bit of pidgin Latin at the end of a post. He is asked to stop. He posts better latin. He is forum banned for a week. I fail to see the prior law.

The mod ( robindch) says:

"
For ignoring a formal warning, you're now on a week's break which will be extended indefinitely if you can't find it within yourself to stick to the forum rules."

formal warning my ass. Was posting latin ( at the end of a sentence) illegal prior to this thread or not? Why are mods allowed to invent rules, subject to individual whimsy and bias.

In real life this would be as if a policeman could unilaterally declare an act illegal and then arrest, or imprison you the next time you "transgressed" his own little rule.

I understand there is an "appeal process". Of course the idea that appealing to cat. mods is the same as a judical appeal is clearly absurd. It would be like getting rid of the judicary and replacing them with appeals to the arresting police officers supervisor; one where the police officer arrested you for doing something (twice) which was not previously illegal. in any case, the banning post was thanked by a category moderator. So good luck to Justicar with the "appeal" process. Were he here. He has probably wisely disappeared.

I am just asking for the record: although the answer is clear to me as it stands ( yes, it is accepted that mods make it up as they go along).

And, of course, this is a private enterprise, not real life. Nevertheless - and I say this as the sometime mod of a very successful American based Apple related forum - if you make things up as you go along people will move elsewhere. Boards may be growing now but making up rules kills all forums.

Luckily you have AH. If you allow this kind of moderation in AH, the site will die. But why allow it anywhere.

Insect Overlord

Yahew wrote: »

In real life this would be as if a policeman could unilaterally declare an act illegal and then arrest, or imprison you the next time you "transgressed" his own little rule.

I understand there is an "appeal process". Of course the idea that appealing to cat. mods is the same as a judical appeal is clearly absurd. It would be like getting rid of the judicary and replacing them with appeals to the arresting police officers supervisor; one where the police officer arrested you for doing something (twice) which was not previously illegal. in any case, the banning post was thanked by a category moderator. So good luck to Justicar with the "appeal" process. Were he here. He has probably wisely disappeared.

First of all, cop on a bit there.

Second: there is a rule that all messages posted in languages other than English (most often Gaeilge, but in this case Latin) should be accompanied by a translation. This allows the remaining majority (who may not have a fluent grasp of the minority language) to understand what has been posted. It's a matter of basic courtesy, a necessary one in this print-based medium.

In this case, the poster was warned to stop posting in a language that most readers/posters could not use. They ignored the warning and got banned.

It's open and shut. Move on, man.

Yahew

That law prohibits posting a message in a different language, not one or two words. Since most of the post was in English its like banning someone who says "slan", or "maith on fear" at the bottom of his post. The little bit of pidgin Latin had on effect on his argument, I didn't look it up, I dont know what it means; and I know what he was talking about. You know, the English bit. Most of it.

This isn't the only example of mods chiming in with their own views passed as laws. I will come back with another tomorrow, one which involves me. (It means a search and it is late, now).

Tar.Aldarion

although she should be destroyed :P it is disruptive to read that in every post, he should put it in his sig.

Orion

Rather than argue the toss I'll just go with

A) None of your business
and
Still none of your business.

The banned poster has the whole DRP forum to complain in. He/she doesn't need you to FIGHT DA POWEH on his behalf.

FWIW the ban was for pointedly being a dick to a mod. And for that Justicar delenda est.

Tar.Aldarion

Orion wrote: »

Rather than argue the toss I'll just go with

A) None of your business
and
Still none of your business.

The banned poster has the whole DRP forum to complain in. He/she doesn't need you to FIGHT DA POWEH on his behalf.

FWIW the ban was for pointedly being a dick to a mod. And for that Justicar delenda est.

This is not about the ban in particular, it is about the general rules.

Insect Overlord

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

This is not about the ban in particular, it is about the general rules.

Yeah, but the OP is something to do with Americans. What's that all about?

Also, the little dig about After Hours is both un-necessary and off-target.

Orion

And one of the rules is not to challenge a mod instruction on thread. He tried to be cute but deliberately snubbed his nose at a mod instruction. If he challenges a mod like that then he deserves the week regardless of anything else. He could have PM-ed the mod first to clarify but decided to be smart instead.

Tar.Aldarion

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Yeah, but the OP is something to do with Americans. What's that all about?

Also, the little dig about After Hours is both un-necessary and off-target.

They are random all right, bit of a grand opening statement

Orion wrote: »

And one of the rules is not to challenge a mod instruction on thread. He tried to be cute but deliberately snubbed his nose at a mod instruction. If he challenges a mod like that then he deserves the week regardless of anything else. He could have PM-ed the mod first to clarify but decided to be smart instead.

I don't think anybody is questioning that rule, it is a case of should mods be allowed to 'make up' a rule in the first place, and are there any guidelines etc. This was his example. Often people complain about mod decisions and are asked for an example of a mods behaviour, and that is what he has done.

Orion

Fair enough comment. He was attaching a pointless line to the bottom of every post (delenda est means must be destroyed ... at least it's a corruption of Cato's statement ... must Spell Czech this ) The mod told him to stop. That may be an abuse of power and outside the charter I will grant.

At that stage the poster should have either pm-ed the mod, contacted a cmod or come to Feedback. But no - he decided if he posted the full formal Latin instead in response to the mod instruction that he'd be ok. Imo that's where the ban came from. He directly challenged a mod on-thread - whether the mod was right or not is irrelevant at this stage - any challenge should have been privately or in Feedback.

Tar.Aldarion

He was indeed, and I think it's fair to question how far a mod can go, what if they asked him to stop signing his name at the end of every post and so on.

I agree totally with your second paragraph!

Orion

I knew we wouldn't be fighting for long Tar-baby *hugs*

LoLth

generally speaking, the mods enforce rules that the users should be aware of (all users are assumed to have read the terms of use and the charter of whatever forum they post in).

However, mods do quite often have to make a judgement call which may involve enacting a new rule in the interest of bettering the community for the other users.

I dont think the warning was to do with a non-english translation (mods, correct me here if I'm wrong please). I think it was the fact that the user was being a dick and thats one of boards.ie's most basic rules.

The ban was for ignoring the formal warning and then proceeding ot be an even bigger dick (and an arrogant and pompous one at that).

Overheal

On the topic of the rule though, and not the ruling, my take is that non-english is frowned upon. Even (and perhaps especially) txt spk. Latin would be included in that. I don't see a problem with a latin signature but posting different latin things at the end of each post really does seem like a dick move. Which is boards' golden rule: Don't be a Dick. If you're being a Dick you're essentially being unconstitutional on this website, and everything you do while you're being a dick becomes potentially circumspect.

Orion

Yahew wrote: »

This isn't the only example of mods chiming in with their own views passed as laws. I will come back with another tomorrow, one which involves me. (It means a search and it is late, now).

After the general theme of "don't be a dick and you'll be ok" I'm curious to see where this goes

metrovelvet

OP- According to a guard in my nearby guarda station there is no rule of law in Ireland. I did ask about this after the US planes were vandalised and the criminals got a not guilty charge. There is only the spirit of the law in Ireland, which means that judges legislate from the bench and rules only apply as the enforcers feel like enforcing them.

Why would boards be any different from the nation that hosts it?

As for DONT BE A DICK. Well, this means different things to different people.

robindch

Yahew wrote: »

formal warning my ass. Was posting latin ( at the end of a sentence) illegal prior to this thread or not? Why are mods allowed to invent rules, subject to individual whimsy and bias.

Posting in Latin is fine with me, though I doubt that any forum members other than myself and perhaps one or two others will understand what the poster wrote.

On the contrary, rule two in the Forum Charter states that "Forum moderators reserve the right to take action against posts or posters which they deem to be offensive or intended to inflame.".

As you may not have studied Latin or Roman history, you may not be aware that the phrase "Rebecca Watson delenda est!" means "Rebecca Watson must be destroyed!", the specific context being the Roman total destruction of the city of Carthage. See here for full details if you're not familiar with either the phrase or the event.

Given the temperature of that particular thread, and the strong feelings elsewhere in the blogosphere that relate to the thread topic, I don't feel it's appropriate for a new poster to arrive along and post violent ideas, even if the poster resorts to Latin to hide them.

Yahew wrote: »

Nevertheless - and I say this as the sometime mod of a very successful American based Apple related forum - if you make things up as you go along people will move elsewhere. Boards may be growing now but making up rules kills all forums. Luckily you have AH. If you allow this kind of moderation in AH, the site will die. But why allow it anywhere.

Justicar was banned for making an offensive post, for which he received a formal written warning. He ignored the warning and repeated the offence in a much more intemperate post. He received a week's ban in strict accordance with his previous warning and the forum rules.

BTW, in addition to Latin and Roman history, you may also be unfamiliar with the forum's "Be Nice!" rule (last post in the charter thread referred to above), the second part of which requests posters who refer to A+A forum posters in other forums, to include a link so that the referee can exercise their right of reply. I think this would have been appropriate with this thread.

robindch

LoLth wrote: »

I dont think the warning was to do with a non-english translation (mods, correct me here if I'm wrong please). I think it was the fact that the user was being a dick and thats one of boards.ie's most basic rules.

As above, the user made a nasty comment, albeit in Latin, and I called the user up on it. The user ignored the warning, posted a longer version of the same thing, in a nose-thumbing post. And that was quite apart from the probability that the poster concerned was a troll to start with.

Making latin gags = good. Being ostentatiously unhelpful = bad.

Ergo ban.

LoLth

robindch wrote: »

Ergo ban.

careful now

robindch

LoLth wrote: »

careful now

Good to see some people still get jokes in Latin

FlutterinBantam

Adversus solem ne loquitor.


That's my sage advice.:D

pickarooney

I don't think I've ever seen so much mala fide on one thread.

FlutterinBantam

Pro bona Moderati, like all threads;)

El Weirdo

Romanes Eunt Domus!

Quazzie

In fairness to the OP the way this thread has gone is doing no one any favours. All its short of is a Latin Lolcat.

El Weirdo

Quazzie wrote: »

In fairness to the OP the way this thread has gone is doing no one any favours. All its short of is a Latin Lolcat.

Ahem...

LoLth

aaaaaand thread locked as it has stopped being feedback.