It's an either or scenario I'm afraid

The IRgAy

Mr Speaker,

Will members of this house not accept, that the recent closures of emergency services in many hospitals across the country, stem from the lack of acceptance of other meaures taken to deal with the deficit?

Is this not the heavy price this nation has to pay for the propping up of inflated social welfare rates, and unrealisitially low income tax levels?

I urge the prime minister to consider ditching populist policies, and concentrate on those that are a matter of life and death!:mad:

I commend this statement to the house!

RMD

I have no idea with what you're saying so I'll take a general shot.

Ireland is a country plagued with politicians who don't have the balls to deal with a problem head on, instead they'll make promises to please the public and then make excuse after excuse about why said promises can't be delivered upon when the obvious occurs. Their main priority is ensuring the people are happy instead of ensuring the country is running properly, they care more for their figures in opinion polls than for the duties involved in the job they ran for, running this country. All in all, not one of them is willing to take a bad name for themselves but ultimately deal with the problems this country faces, dealing with the economic crisis.

The IRgAy

RMD wrote: »

I have no idea with what you're saying so I'll take a general shot.

Ireland is a country plagued with politicians who don't have the balls to deal with a problem head on, instead they'll make promises to please the public and then make excuse after excuse about why said promises can't be delivered upon when the obvious occurs. Their main priority is ensuring the people are happy instead of ensuring the country is running properly, they care more for their figures in opinion polls than for the duties involved in the job they ran for, running this country. All in all, not one of them is willing to take a bad name for themselves but ultimately deal with the problems this country faces, dealing with the economic crisis.

I entirely agree with the right honourable gentleman, but does he not think the blame also lies with the population at large?

After all, they continuously bitch and moan at every single cut, which is why the spineless government have taken the cowardly but hugely destructive option of cutting the health service as apposed to cutting spending elsewhere?

RMD

The majority of the population don't understand a lot of the basic concepts involved in economics and politics. They'll bítch and moan about anything really not understanding the necessity behind it. It's a common theme throughout the world, it's not just an Irish problem.

The IRgAy

RMD wrote: »

The majority of the population don't understand a lot of the basic concepts involved in economics and politics. They'll bítch and moan about anything really not understanding the necessity behind it. It's a common theme throughout the world, it's not just an Irish problem.

I think the whole house will agree, that this is a theme perhaps more pronounced in Irish politics than elsewhere.

Why else would a government in such a financially stricken state commit to not cutting spending and raising taxes when it so clearly required to balance the books?

It looks like the right honourable gentleman is unwilling to accept that this country is not normal; until he does, he remains very much part of the collective problem.

HellFireClub

The IRgAy wrote: »

I entirely agree with the right honourable gentleman, but does he not think the blame also lies with the population at large?

After all, they continuously bitch and moan at every single cut, which is why the spineless government have taken the cowardly but hugely destructive option of cutting the health service as apposed to cutting spending elsewhere?

There are no "right honourable gentlemen" in our house of parliment, you wouldn't dare offend the ordinary meaning of those words by using them to describe the people who sit in our upper house...

RMD

The IRgAy wrote: »

I think the whole house will agree, that this is a theme perhaps more pronounced in Irish politics than elsewhere.

Why else would a government in such a financially stricken state commit to not cutting spending and raising taxes when it so clearly required to balance the books?

It looks like the right honourable gentleman is unwilling to accept that this country is not normal; until he does, he remains very much part of the collective problem.

This country is relatively normal. Like most countries, our problem is a large number of our population don't understand politics, economics or the depth of the problem we're facing.

Liam Byrne

RMD wrote: »

This country is relatively normal. Like most countries, our problem is a large number of our population don't understand politics, economics or the depth of the problem we're facing.

No. The problem is that those whose job it is to look after such things cannot be trusted to act in the interests of the country, preferring to look after their own instead.

That's what created "the depth of the problem", and that's what continues to make it worse.

Pointless billions wasted on corrupt banks and NAMA, reports and consultations, and yet they still hit the easy option - ordinary decent people who - despite the lies - did not get greedy or contribute to the problem.

beeftotheheels

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No. The problem is that those whose job it is to look after such things cannot be trusted to act in the interests of the country, preferring to look after their own instead.

That's what created "the depth of the problem", and that's what continues to make it worse.

Pointless billions wasted on corrupt banks and NAMA, reports and consultations, and yet they still hit the easy option - ordinary decent people who - despite the lies - did not get greedy or contribute to the problem.

Yes and No.

I whole heartedly agree with you that we have some very messed up expectations in relation to both public life and the public sector where any sense of duty is missing. As a society we seem to accept that it is okay for politicians to be motivated entirely by their own self interest, be that salary or the prospect of reelection causing them to pander to local interests.

But every one in Ireland benefited from the bubble, be they OAPs whose pensions went up, public sector workers whose salaries went up, shop owners whose sales went up due to the OAPs and PS workers having more money, private sector workers, property developers and bankers. They didn't all benefit to the same extent, but every one benefited. And to some extent Joe Soap was an enabler, not just by voting for FF (which almost 50% of the electorate did) but also by taking on a mortgage which allowed the property developer to make a profit, allowing him to borrow more... ad infinitum (or until 2007 whichever happens first).

Now as a private sector worker who didn't take on a stupid mortgage of course it is galling to me that I'm having to bail out the banks, and I may end up having to bail out the mortgagees who took on mortgages I was too sensible to take on, since I assumed that we were in a bubble and remained renting and am looking to buy now (waiting for an engineer's report as I type). But, I don't think that claiming any moral high ground on this would help anyone.

The reality is that we are in a mess, and between the FF voters, and the non-FF voters who took on silly mortgages, I would guess that a significant majority of the Irish people are implicated in getting us into this mess. I could try to exclude myself (having never voted FF nor taken on a mortgage) but that cannot help with the future. And I think it more worrying that some people refuse to accept any share of the blame, you know the ones on The Frontline saying "I'm in negative equity getting nasty calls from the bank when I borrowed 6x salary but I thought my house price could only go up and I would always make €xk as a beautician/ plasterer/ whatever but this is not my fault"?

All in, I suspect that none of us can claim "completely" clean hands in this, and only a minority can claim to have relatively clean hands (never voting FF, never getting involved in the property market post 2001). And while it is infuriating if you fall within that minority, that's the problem with democracy.

Son Of A Vidic

The IRgAy wrote: »

I urge the prime minister Taoiseach to consider ditching populist policies, and concentrate on those that are a matter of life and death!:mad:

Well unfortunately they have, closing Emergency Departments is a matter of life or death. Unfortunately there will be unnecessary deaths because of this. I see no evidence of 'populist' polices involved in the closing of these Departments. But the faceless bureaucrats of HSE management aren't going to cull themselves now I suppose.

djpbarry

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Well unfortunately they have, closing Emergency Departments is a matter of life or death. Unfortunately there will be unnecessary deaths because of this.

Will there? How many? How does that number compare to the number of deaths attributable to poorly-resourced, understaffed A&E departments?

Fratton Fred

I think we are seeing either spineless or naïve politics at the moment.

FG made loads of crazy promises in the run up to the election, like not raising taxes and getting an interest rate reduction from Brussels.

He didn't need to make these promises because FF were winning the election for him.

Then, what we see is Enda trying to live up to these promises and failing miserably. What he should be doing is what his opposite number in Westminster is doing, make the cuts, raise the taxes and make the country suffer, but ultimately get it back on the right track, then in four years time, start giving back because, in theory, he should have money in thew bank.

Enda is too worried about opinion polls and criticism, when he doesn't need to, the only opinion poll that counts is the one in five years time.

We are in danger of getting to the next election after four years of pandering to the masses rather than actual progress.

anymore

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Yes and No.

I whole heartedly agree with you that we have some very messed up expectations in relation to both public life and the public sector where any sense of duty is missing. As a society we seem to accept that it is okay for politicians to be motivated entirely by their own self interest, be that salary or the prospect of reelection causing them to pander to local interests.

But every one in Ireland benefited from the bubble, be they OAPs whose pensions went up, public sector workers whose salaries went up, shop owners whose sales went up due to the OAPs and PS workers having more money, private sector workers, property developers and bankers. They didn't all benefit to the same extent, but every one benefited. And to some extent Joe Soap was an enabler, not just by voting for FF (which almost 50% of the electorate did) but also by taking on a mortgage which allowed the property developer to make a profit, allowing him to borrow more... ad infinitum (or until 2007 whichever happens first).

Now as a private sector worker who didn't take on a stupid mortgage of course it is galling to me that I'm having to bail out the banks, and I may end up having to bail out the mortgagees who took on mortgages I was too sensible to take on, since I assumed that we were in a bubble and remained renting and am looking to buy now (waiting for an engineer's report as I type). But, I don't think that claiming any moral high ground on this would help anyone.

The reality is that we are in a mess, and between the FF voters, and the non-FF voters who took on silly mortgages, I would guess that a significant majority of the Irish people are implicated in getting us into this mess. I could try to exclude myself (having never voted FF nor taken on a mortgage) but that cannot help with the future. And I think it more worrying that some people refuse to accept any share of the blame, you know the ones on The Frontline saying "I'm in negative equity getting nasty calls from the bank when I borrowed 6x salary but I thought my house price could only go up and I would always make €xk as a beautician/ plasterer/ whatever but this is not my fault"?

All in, I suspect that none of us can claim "completely" clean hands in this, and only a minority can claim to have relatively clean hands (never voting FF, never getting involved in the property market post 2001). And while it is infuriating if you fall within that minority, that's the problem with democracy.

You are confusing the real benefits arising from the reaL Celtic Tiger period and the property bubble - they are separate issues.

gman2k

djpbarry wrote: »

Will there? How many? How does that number compare to the number of deaths attributable to poorly-resourced, understaffed A&E departments?

Who knows, time will tell. Have you got figures for the future?
What is for certain though, if spending is reduced and services reduced - which is happening - then patients will suffer even more.
It's very lazy thinking to suggest that current A&E models are more dangerous to patients than none.
Try and hide behind spin and babble from the HSE/HIQA & Minister of Health all you want, the people & professionals on the ground are not buying that.

beeftotheheels

anymore wrote: »

You are confusing the real benefits arising from the reaL Celtic Tiger period and the property bubble - they are separate issues.

How so? The real Celtic Tiger ended around 2000, public expenditure inflated based on transactional taxes really took off around the same time because prior to joining the euro (1999) we had been quite good at keeping our expenditure in check, and taxbase feasible.

The daft giveaway budget of C McC was delivered in 2001

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/budget2006/mccreevyprofile.htm

While governments everywhere tend to loosen the purse strings to win voters' favour, from 2001 Mr McCreevy simply upended the public purse, allowing spending to run out of control.

djpbarry

gman2k wrote: »

What is for certain though, if spending is reduced and services reduced - which is happening - then patients will suffer even more.

Are you sure that’s certain? If more money is thrown at the HSE, will patients necessarily benefit?

gman2k wrote: »

It's very lazy thinking to suggest that current A&E models are more dangerous to patients than none.

I never suggested any such thing, I merely asked another poster to back up their post quantitatively.

gman2k wrote: »

Try and hide behind spin and babble from the HSE/HIQA & Minister of Health all you want, the people & professionals on the ground are not buying that.

So what? Lots of government actions are unpopular among “people and professionals”, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that those actions should not be taken.