Fast food outlets win challenge to JLCs

7sr2z3fely84g5

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0707/jlc.html

The High Court has ruled that the Joint Labour Committee system of setting wages lower paid workers is unconstitutional.
The case has been taken by John Grace Fried Chicken of Cork and the Quick Service Food Alliance, which represent a group of fast food outlets.
The restaurants argued that the JLC system was unconstitutional, unfair and breached their property rights.
However, the State defended the JLCs as legally sound and reasonable in protecting the rights of low paid workers.
Mr Justice Kevin Feeney found that there were insufficient principles and policies in the legislation governing JLCs to permit them to operate constitutionally.
This means that the legislation gave the Labour Court and JLCs too much power without adequate guidance and supervision by the Oireachtas.
Plaintiff John Grace of the Quick Service Food Alliance welcomed the ruling.
Mr Grace said his members had no plans to cut the wages of existing staff but that new recruits would be employed on lower terms. He said the move would be good for business and would create jobs.
'We are confident that many businesses will not only be more stable as a result of the decision but will be enabled to take on new staff,' Mr Grace added.

The ruling could have significant implications for the Government's plans to reform wage setting mechanisms governing pay and conditions for around 200,000 workers in sectors including contract cleaning, security, hotels, restaurants and hairdressing.
Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation Richard Bruton has brought reform proposals to Cabinet and a Government decision is expected shortly.
However, opponents of the reform proposals argue that they will result in widespread poverty for low paid workers, who will see cuts in their overtime and premium rates of pay.
SIPTU Vice-President Patricia King said that the ruling is 'devastating news' for low paid workers.

She said: 'It's the case of all their birthdays coming at once for the most unscrupulous employers in the State who are now free to plunder the wage packets of poorly paid workers.'

However, the ruling has been welcomed by Chambers Ireland, which said it should help create more jobs.

Is this the start of extremely cheap labour?..

Needler

Soon all food will be served by an IBM Watson anyway so whats the point

Cuddlesworth

I don't see why no-skill work should have its wages dictated by any government organisation outside of the basic minimum wage rate. If you want better wages, get a actual skill that a trained monkey couldn't do.

mackg

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I don't see why no-skill work should have its wages dictated by any government organisation outside of the basic minimum wage rate. If you want better wages, get a actual skill that a trained monkey couldn't do.

What exactly does this ruling mean? What were these workers entitled to before this ruling that they will not be entitled to now.

Cookie_Monster

mackg wrote: »

What exactly does this ruling mean? What were these workers entitled to before this ruling that they will not be entitled to now.

they had a minimum wage for the sector that was substantially higher than national minimum wage. that's now gone, plus probably some T&C's such as 1.5 time on Sunday.

Biggins

I can see pubs now jumping on this and trying to alter the rates they pay staff.

Cuddlesworth

mackg wrote: »

What exactly does this ruling mean? What were these workers entitled to before this ruling that they will not be entitled to now.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/industrial_relations_and_trade_unions/joint_labour_committees.html

For example contract cleaning in Dublin has a minimum wage rate of €9.50 per hour since 2008. Which is stupid, its not skilled work.

conorhal

I'd call this a bad day if JLC's were only about social protection for the lower paid, but let's face it, JLC's contributed quite a lot towards our downfall during the boom years.
JLC's covered many industries, not just low paid sectors either, they applied to electricians, plumbers, builders etc and during the boom JLCs were one of the major factors that led directly to the spiraling cost of house building and thus housing in general. You had the whole 'block layers in Beemers' phenomena that saw manual laborers on a building site earning senior IT consultant wages.
Not only was the cost of your house driven up but many young people were disincentivized to continue with higher education, I mean, why spend years to get an IT degree when you could go on the buildings at 16 and earn more money then an accountant or a banker?
People can talk about unsustainable pay rates in the public sector, but the JLCs led to some pretty unsustainable pay rates in the private sector too, and then sought (a bit like upward only rent reviews) to sustain them during the crash also. Anybody that called a plumber or an electrician to replace a fuse board or fix a leaky tap during the boom knows exactly what I’m talking about.
I say that it should be left to the market to determine what a job is worth.

sock puppet

What's the difference between JLCs and REAs? Are the latter affected by this ruling?

TwoShedsJackson

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/industrial_relations_and_trade_unions/joint_labour_committees.html

For example contract cleaning in Dublin has a minimum wage rate of €9.50 per hour since 2008. Which is stupid, its not skilled work.

But it usually involves unsocial hours and plenty of actual physical work, So I think the extra 85c an hour they're getting over the minimum wage isn't going to put anyone out really.

RedXIV

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

But it usually involves unsocial hours and plenty of actual physical work, So I think the extra 85c an hour they're getting over the minimum wage isn't going to put anyone out really.

In fairness ALL jobs SHOULD involve work, be it physical or mental. The point of this is that it takes little or no training to train someone to be a cleaner so why should they get paid above the minimum wage? While they do work unsociable hours, they usually aren't TOO unsociable.

squod

''Legal system sides with people who have money'' shocker.


JLCs have fuhk all to do with the constitution. These are rights the worker negotiated and fought for. Judge is obviously a fuhken knob-jockey to get involved with a constitutional reference to this matter.

Jarren

will this have an effect on all workers ?
or just fast food outlets?

krudler

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I don't see why no-skill work should have its wages dictated by any government organisation outside of the basic minimum wage rate. If you want better wages, get a actual skill that a trained monkey couldn't do.

our country is governed by chimps, their pay scale should reflect that too

sollar

The problem in this country is people don't want to work for that sort of money. They believe that they are better off living on the dole and getting their rent paid etc.

RedXIV

sollar wrote: »

The problem in this country is people don't want to work for that sort of money. They believe that they are better off living on the dole and getting their rent paid etc.

Yup. but lets face it, the monstrosity that is our social welfare bill is gonna be trimmed down in the next budget, I can't even imagine a way around it. And maybe it might be enough to convince a few to come off it. And chances are it'll be cut a bit more next year. And in 5 years time, we might actually have a country where very few WANT to be on the dole because minimum wage gives a better life

sollar

RedXIV wrote: »

Yup. but lets face it, the monstrosity that is our social welfare bill is gonna be trimmed down in the next budget, I can't even imagine a way around it.

Enda Kenny has already said he won't touch it in the next budget. Crazy stuff.

RedXIV

sollar wrote: »

Enda Kenny has already said he won't touch it in the next budget. Crazy stuff.

He also said he'd lower the interest rates on the bailout.

lets just say I'm a pessimist

starviewadams

Low paid workers get hammered again,between this and the joke of an ''internship'' scheme the government are really showing the their true colors when it comes to the vunerable sections of society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-23L4NMKjM

sdanseo

I once fell out with a previous employer over him refusing to pay me the JLC rate. On a couple of occasions since then I have been looking for work and would probably have got a job off him if I hadn't been a stubborn bollocks over what was only €150-200.

There are bigger issues.

At the end of the day this will only affect new employees and if the terms and conditions of employment aren't to your liking then don't sign the contract and go find something else. If you can't be happy to have a job where you cannot legally be paid less than €8.65 an hour. If anything this ruling will indirectly fulfil the ultimate socialist wet dream - available money shared equally among as many people as possible - there will be more minimum wage jobs.

On a pay level I'm a little dissapointed by this in that people can no longer bargain collectively for better pay. However, on a sensibility and logic level I'm delighted, because nobody who works in these sectors ever sees the JLC as a functional tool for improving things, they just see €€€ signs and go off the deep end if anyone tries to fúck with that.

sollar

RedXIV wrote: »

He also said he'd lower the interest rates on the bailout.

lets just say I'm a pessimist

If thats the case they are even more blatant liars than Fianna Fail

RedXIV

sollar wrote: »

If thats the case they are even more blatant liars than Fianna Fail

Politicians my friend, what did you expect?

sollar

RedXIV wrote: »

Politicians my friend, what did you expect?

I liked it better when i was left wondering if they are lying or not. Far to blatant this new lot

Cill Dara Abu

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I don't see why no-skill work should have its wages dictated by any government organisation outside of the basic minimum wage rate. If you want better wages, get a actual skill that a trained monkey couldn't do.

What a disgusting comment!!

Alot of people are not lucky enough to have the chance or the money to gain a skill or qualification, therefore have to take these kind of jobs.

Would you rather see un-skilled workers on €2 an hour?

strobe

conorhal wrote: »

I'd call this a bad day if JLC's were only about social protection for the lower paid, but let's face it, JLC's contributed quite a lot towards our downfall during the boom years.
JLC's covered many industries, not just low paid sectors either, they applied to electricians, plumbers, builders etc and during the boom JLCs were one of the major factors that led directly to the spiraling cost of house building and thus housing in general. You had the whole 'block layers in Beemers' phenomena that saw manual laborers on a building site earning senior IT consultant wages.
Not only was the cost of your house driven up but many young people were disincentivized to continue with higher education, I mean, why spend years to get an IT degree when you could go on the buildings at 16 and earn more money then an accountant or a banker?
People can talk about unsustainable pay rates in the public sector, but the JLCs led to some pretty unsustainable pay rates in the private sector too, and then sought (a bit like upward only rent reviews) to sustain them during the crash also. Anybody that called a plumber or an electrician to replace a fuse board or fix a leaky tap during the boom knows exactly what I’m talking about.
I say that it should be left to the market to determine what a job is worth.

JLC's had virtually nothing to do with the money block layers where getting payed (or any other tradesman in the construction industry). It was basic supply and demand that allowed them to dictate their wages. Your post is entirely nonsensical and uninformed. No offense, but seriously....

Eric Cartman

krudler wrote: »

our country is governed by chimps, their pay scale should reflect that too

i think youll find he said 'a job a monkey could do' , they may be monkeys but I think youll find theyre not doing the job

mikemac

Security has a starting hourly rate of €10.01 since 2009.
This is one rate that will be cut

Though if you're hiring in security from an agency, the agency will probably cut the staff rate but charge the business the same, pocket the difference

Trashbat

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

What a disgusting comment!!

Alot of people are not lucky enough to have the chance or the money to gain a skill or qualification, therefore have to take these kind of jobs.

Would you rather see un-skilled workers on €2 an hour?

Did you read the post you quoted? The poster stated "outside the minimum wage rate".

To be honest though, Minimum wage is too high and doesn't provide any incentive whatsoever to gain those skills that could help increase someones wage level.

Its a horrible thing to say, but part of the reason Ireland is such a rip off is the terrible margins business operate on because the work force have a sense of entitlement to certain levels of income, despite having no skills and doing jobs that can't economically sustain a wage higher than national minimum at best.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Trashbat wrote: »

Did you read the post you quoted? The poster stated "outside the minimum wage rate".

To be honest though, Minimum wage is too high and doesn't provide any incentive whatsoever to gain those skills that could help increase someones wage level.

Its a horrible thing to say, but part of the reason Ireland is such a rip off is the terrible margins business operate on because the work force have a sense of entitlement to certain levels of income, despite having no skills and doing jobs that can't economically sustain a wage higher than national minimum at best.

Thing is,thanks to the USC and other taxes,cutting the min wage on some people,say like those with family and mortgage would leave them better off on the dole.

And i think the rates for rent/waste/water should had being reduced first before hitting the low paid.

JONJO THE MISER

Scumbags, anyone who lives where that John Grace has he's chicken places, make sure to boycott them.

7sr2z3fely84g5

i have a feeling alot of contracts will be up for renewal all a sudden.

ofcork

John grace is cork city based and im sure hes doing alright,its a win for employers again.

kk887

sorrry guys, I am still confuse about the Joint Labour Committee system...can anyone briefly explain to me?

Thank you.