our money/my money/no money

Glinda

Ok, so I'm a bit worried that someone I know will see this and recognise me, but after putting up with the situation for over a decade, I'm hoping to get some helpful advice!

Situation: Married with kids, me and OH both working, good jobs (I know we're very lucky). I earn less than him (me c. 50k, him c. 65k basic plus about 10k overtime).

All our money goes into a joint account and everything is paid for out of that. We have a mortgage (about 1000pm), childminder bills(800) plus all the other normal expenses. We have a car loan (350).

On paper we are fine, no debts other than the above and can afford a fairly nice lifestyle, but every couple of months he reviews the situation (he has a giant spreadsheet that shows how much we should have in the bank at any point in time ). It's always a disaster. We've always overspent, usually by hundreds of euro.

We fight about it every time, and we always can't believe what's happened. We never manage to save anything, every time we do, something comes up (car breaks, washing machine has to be replaced, family wedding) God at this stage you'd think we'd have figured something out or at least got used to it. So depressing.

I took a couple of years off when my kids were small, and worked part-time for a few years. At that stage money was really tight and I had to account for every penny spent. I thought this would change when I went back to work full-time, but it's no better at all.

Thing is (and sorry this post is so long!) all the girls at work say that I am crazy not to have my own bank account. Nowadays everyone seems to keep their own account and have a joint one for bills which they pay an agreed amount into every month for joint expenses.

OH says I'll be broke if we go for this arrangement, and seems upset by the idea.

Any words of wisdom? How do you manage? I'd like to know some of the pros and cons of an arrangement like this. At the moment it seems like it couldn't be any worse than what we are doing at the moment, but I'm worried it's a bit drastic . Thanks in advance. Glinda.

EL_Loco

and what's the conclusion of the master spreadsheet?

where's the money going?

Mr. Presentable

Someone is spending a lot of money if you are being straight about your income and outgoings. Joint accounts are the best way to go, otherwise you start to get arguments about who should pay for what.

Elle Collins

125 K a year and you're worrying about money???

Sounds like you need some serious financial guidence.

Ickle Magoo

Moved from tLL - this is the forum for asking advice. :cool:

pickarooney

It's hard to understand exactly
a) how you don't understand where the money is going giving how it's being tracked
b) what difference it would make to the above if you had separate accounts
c) what you're fighting about if the money is going on fixing cars and washing machines as opposed to clothes or booze

hoodwinked

i think the girls you work with are right, you should have your own bank account, and at least enough in it to get you by for about a year,

if you are married and your husband should pass away, everything in his accounts and the joint accounts will be frozen for a period of time, you will have no access to the money in them, nor will the banks lend you money, until it's officially released into your name.


this is when you will need your own account with your own money, in my personal case it was up to a year before the money was sorted but luckily the person involved had her own account to live off of.

EL_Loco

Right well, from watching various "I don't know how we got into this mess" type program first step always seems to be some sort of diary of spending.

so track everything for a month OR just use your debit/credit cards to pay for everything, that way you've a record of spending.

Maybe open another account for bills, you can see what goes into it and what you've left over. Again when you take away the cover of the standard bills you're paying something else may come to light as a money sink.

Personally I dont' know how having your own account would help, other than highlighting which one of you is the big spender. And if you split the bills are they going to be ratioed to your incomes? Sounds like it'd cause friction, and I don't think that's really your problem in the first place, it's just rampant spending somewhere along the line.

pickarooney

hoodwinked wrote: »

i think the girls you work with are right, you should have your own bank account, and at least enough in it to get you by for about a year,

if you are married and your husband should pass away, everything in his accounts and the joint accounts will be frozen for a period of time, you will have no access to the money in them, nor will the banks lend you money, until it's officially released into your name.


this is when you will need your own account with your own money, in my personal case it was up to a year before the money was sorted but luckily the person involved had her own account to live off of.

Seriously? The bank freezes joint accounts when one spouse dies? That is mental!

borderlinemeath

I think that separate accounts can lead to friction if every penny is accounted for. You appear to have a good joint income so there really should be money left over if budgeted correctly.

Keep the joint account, get rid of cards, credit cards, laser all of them. When you have to buy something and you've no cash in your pocket it will make you think twice before purchasing and you might realise you don't NEED it, you just want it. This goes for both of you.

If it's impossible (with work perhaps) cut it down to one joint account that you both have cards on with a low limit.

*I know how difficult it is to get rid of cards, if you have to - get a prepaid card for booking tickets etc - there's no overdraft, you can't spend what isn't on it.

hoodwinked

pickarooney wrote: »

Seriously? The bank freezes joint accounts when one spouse dies? That is mental!

i don't know if it was specific to the cause of death or not, or waiting on documentation as to the cause of death, but yes she was unable to access his accounts or their joint accounts for a year after he died.

even the mortgage payment which came out of the joint account for years bounced.

she now warns everyone to have at least a years live on money in their own private account!

Glinda

Thanks Ickle Magoo - sorry for posting the wrong thread

Thanks for all the replies and advice.

We don't use the credit card much and clear the balance every month. We each take out an agreed amount in cash to get us through the week, and some extra for unexpected expenses which lives in a jar in the cupboard.

Then every few weeks we review and all the money is gone

Thinking I sound a bit stupid now, that I don't know where it's going... I guess if I was replying to myself my advice would be to go back through the bank statements and the visa bills and figure out for myself what the hell is happening. Mortgage/childminder/car loan/health insurance adds to about €2500 a month. Suppose utility bills are about another 200-ish on top. We don't go out. Takeaway maybe once a week. Visit friends on the weekend, maybe bring a viennetta and a bottle of wine - shouldn't be causing these problems!!!

Miss Fluff

Glinda wrote: »

On paper we are fine, no debts other than the above and can afford a fairly nice lifestyle

Define nice lifestyle?

There's a real "all fur coat and no knickers" brigade in existence post Celtic Tiger where people don't have their breakfasts but are vulgar in their need to still parade around in D & G and holiday in the Bahamas. I'm going to be slated here but because the Irish didn't have money for so long there seemed to be this need to go baloobas when people did finally have a few quid, a lot of people don't want to/can't seem to let that go.

It should be glaringly obvious from your spreadsheet where the money is going unless massive cash purchases are being made.

John Mason

First thing, open a saving account and set up a DD for 10% of your monthly income, set it up so it comes out of the bank the day you get paid.

Second, work out how much your bills are each month, set up a bills account. when you know the amount of the bill, arranga a DD for this amount plus 100e extra to go from the joint account into the bills account.

the 100e will mean you have money in the account to cover car insurance/TV Licence/applicance breakdowns etc. I have no idea why in hell your utility bills would be over 200e a month - start looking around for cheaper providers

then both of you start a spending diary, every single cent you spend goes on the list.

you will be amazed at how much those lunches and coffees cost.

Glinda

pickarooney wrote: »

It's hard to understand exactly
a) how you don't understand where the money is going giving how it's being tracked
b) what difference it would make to the above if you had separate accounts
c) what you're fighting about if the money is going on fixing cars and washing machines as opposed to clothes or booze

(a) I don't understand where it's going because no matter how careful we are it seems we always over spend. I know how stupid that sounds, but it seems to be true no matter what we try, and (most frustratingly) no matter how hard we work or how much we earn.

(b) I think separate accounts might make a difference because we would each be able to see where our money was going and neither could blame the other person for the overspend (at the moment we are both blaming each other )

(c) I think we're fighting because it's scary how out of control things seem to be, even though we have what seems to me to be a huge income, we are always tight for money. I know this is childish, but it doesn't seem fair, I work so hard, and still have to worry about spending an extra 5 euro in Tesco on icecream. It makes me want to scream!

LittleBook

pickarooney wrote: »

Seriously? The bank freezes joint accounts when one spouse dies? That is mental!

hoodwinked wrote: »

i don't know if it was specific to the cause of death or not, or waiting on documentation as to the cause of death, but yes she was unable to access his accounts or their joint accounts for a year after he died.

It's usually specific to the instructions given to the bank at the time the account is opened.

e.g. Bank of Ireland:

I/we agree with you and with one another that in the event of the death of any one or more of us any monies outstanding in any accounts in our joint names shall be payable to or held for the survivor or survivors and in the event of the death of the last survivor for the personal representative(s) of the last survivor.**

** Where you do not wish the proceeds to be payable to the survivor(s) on the account on the death of an accountholder please alert your branch before completing this form.

LittleBook

Glinda, I think what people are having difficulty understanding is that if

Glinda wrote: »

every couple of months he reviews the situation (he has a giant spreadsheet that shows how much we should have in the bank at any point in time ... we review and all the money is gone

how can you not know just by looking at the spreadsheet where the money is gone? There should be no , it should be there in black and white.

Do you not see this spreadsheet? What is the point of keeping the spreadsheet if you can't use it to keep track of where the money is gone?

The income versus the outgoings you describe should not be leaving you short of money. Yes, you need to check your visa bills and bank statements as soon as possible, this is very strange.

Elle Collins

Glinda wrote: »

I think we're fighting because it's scary how out of control things seem to be, even though we have what seems to me to be a huge income, we are always tight for money. I know this is childish, but it doesn't seem fair, I work so hard, and still have to worry about spending an extra 5 euro in Tesco on icecream. It makes me want to scream!

You need to keep account of every last penny in order to understand where the wastage is. I truly cannot understand your situation though, I have to say. I know how to put a dinner on the table for the family for under a fiver and many times I've had to do it too.

The bottom line is, if you're always ending up broke you've got to be living beyond your means, though how anyone on that kind of combined wage manages to do that is something I cannot figure out. Would you consider getting professional financial help with this?

jester77

One big current account is not optimal for easily tracking ougoings. Whatever about having your own private account, a second joint account would make things easier. Calculate all fixed costs for the month, plus budgets (holidays, etc) and transfer over that amount per month to the new account. At least then you can track the current account and see where overspending is happening. But if you have a spreadsheet then it should already be obvious.

LegacyUser

I think what Glinda was saying was the spreadsheet shows what SHOULD be going into and out of the account but not what ACTUALLY is happening, which means its a complete waste of time.

Keep a proper account of what's actually being spent for a month or two and then you will have some idea where you are going wrong. It doesn't have to be down to the penny even something like
Mon:
200 out of ATM
approx 100 in Tesco
approx 40 at petrol station

then if you are going back to the ATM on Tues you know you have frittered away 60 euro somewhere.

Glinda

Sorry - mightn't have made it clear, the giant spreadsheet is for what we should be spending.

It starts at the beginning of the year and goes through all the expected expenses for each month, mortgage, car insurance, car tax, an amount for phone bills, Sky, back to school expenses and so on. Our income for each month goes in too and that gives an idea of what the balance in the account should be at any given point in time. The problem is that the reality isn't matching the spreadsheet and we are always under by quite a long way.

greengirl31

Hi there ...

I think it's shocking how I can spend money without even realising it ... Recently, I'm overdrawn only a few days after I'm paid so I've had to take a serious look at my finances and here's what I did.

First of all I have 2 accounts. One that I get paid into and one that the bills and DD's come out of. When I get paid, I know from my spreadsheet(i'll get to that in a sec) how much is going to be needed to cover bills/Mortgage/insurance/creche etc. That amount then gets transferred to the DD a\c. I have no card for that so it stays there.
Then back to the SS - I have the details of all the fixed outgoings that are transferred to the DD a\c (if you want to try to save a little open a 3rd a\c and stick even €50 in there) and then I have one for the monthly budget. In here I account for food, diesel, clothes, school trips, car service/tyres, household emergencies. Do this week by week if you have to. I tend to do one big grocery shop a month then a smaller one mid month, I fill my car at on Pay day and then 2 weeks later I'll put another bit in cause I know a full tank won't do me the full month. If there are trips coming up or the car is due a service I'll stick this in too. At the end of this process you should see how much "disposable" income you have. depending on how much this is, try to put a bit away for the next trip away or appliance break down and divide the rest into 4.5 weeks and this is your "incidental" money. Just from a practical point of view though, both you and your husband (and kids if applicable) should start bringing your lunch with you (at least €5 per day), cut out magazines, take away coffee's. I find the less I have to go to the shop the less I spend. I'll now only buy milk and bread if that's what I go to the shop for.

Another point I'd make to you OP is have you actually looked at this super spreadsheet or just given it a quick glance?? Does you husband look after the finances and you're only called in when there's a problem ?? I would say you should take a more active roll in managing the money - that way you will be able to see what's really going on.

best of luck

Oryx

Glinda wrote: »

Sorry - mightn't have made it clear, the giant spreadsheet is for what we should be spending.

It starts at the beginning of the year and goes through all the expected expenses for each month, mortgage, car insurance, car tax, an amount for phone bills, Sky, back to school expenses and so on. Our income for each month goes in too and that gives an idea of what the balance in the account should be at any given point in time. The problem is that the reality isn't matching the spreadsheet and we are always under by quite a long way.

Do you reconcile your bank account at each month end? Like businesses do? Sounds like your hubby has the head for it already. If not, this is what you should be doing because it will make you examine your outgoings on an ongoing basis, and catch problems early.

Watch what goes out on your cards for trips to the local shop, and other small spends. Youre clearly not allowing for a substantial portion of your spending. Does the spreadsheet budget have a contingency fund for these extras that always crop up?

Part of your problem could even be the spreadsheet, because its giving you a false sense of security. Its not reflecting the reality of your spending, but you are using it as your budgeting tool as if it does.

And lastly, remind your husband that you are in this together. This is not a war, money spent on your family is a joint problem, not him against you.

Glinda

greengirl31 wrote: »

Hi there ...

I think it's shocking how I can spend money without even realising it ... Recently, I'm overdrawn only a few days after I'm paid so I've had to take a serious look at my finances and here's what I did.

First of all I have 2 accounts. One that I get paid into and one that the bills and DD's come out of. When I get paid, I know from my spreadsheet(i'll get to that in a sec) how much is going to be needed to cover bills/Mortgage/insurance/creche etc. That amount then gets transferred to the DD a\c. I have no card for that so it stays there.
Then back to the SS - I have the details of all the fixed outgoings that are transferred to the DD a\c (if you want to try to save a little open a 3rd a\c and stick even €50 in there) and then I have one for the monthly budget. In here I account for food, diesel, clothes, school trips, car service/tyres, household emergencies. Do this week by week if you have to. I tend to do one big grocery shop a month then a smaller one mid month, I fill my car at on Pay day and then 2 weeks later I'll put another bit in cause I know a full tank won't do me the full month. If there are trips coming up or the car is due a service I'll stick this in too. At the end of this process you should see how much "disposable" income you have. depending on how much this is, try to put a bit away for the next trip away or appliance break down and divide the rest into 4.5 weeks and this is your "incidental" money. Just from a practical point of view though, both you and your husband (and kids if applicable) should start bringing your lunch with you (at least €5 per day), cut out magazines, take away coffee's. I find the less I have to go to the shop the less I spend. I'll now only buy milk and bread if that's what I go to the shop for.

Another point I'd make to you OP is have you actually looked at this super spreadsheet or just given it a quick glance?? Does you husband look after the finances and you're only called in when there's a problem ?? I would say you should take a more active roll in managing the money - that way you will be able to see what's really going on.

best of luck

Thanks GreenGirl, that's really helpful. I do my grocery shopping weekly, and don't really go to the shops in between. Bill for Groceries is around €90 for the weekly shop, plus about €30 on fresh goods on the weekend.

I don't ever buy magazines or newspapers or takeaway coffees. I eat lunch out once a week at work (costs around €15). Otherwise I bring lunch with me.

I don't really have time to go to the shops, my working day is long and I like to get home to the kids.

OH does look after the finances and only call me in when there's a problem, but there always is.

We do have some expensive outgoings, one summer holiday every year (costs about €3500, but we put money away every month for this) and usually a weekend break in Ireland (cheap hotel from Lidl Breaks this year, but was still lovely) in the Spring or Autumn.

I think the idea of a bills account is a good one, and maybe I'll set up my pay into an account of my own, so that I can see how much is there to spend when the essentials are taken care of.

I know we're not badly off, and I don't think for a minute we're unfortunate, but I don't think we should have money worries with the income we have and so little debt.

Morag

Well he's not doing a good job of it if you both cant' see where the money is going.
Do you have online banking?
Start with that and track what goes in and out of the account and compare it to the spread sheet.

Sleepy

Spending diary really seems like the way to go. Then compare that to the budget in the spreadsheet for a few months and adjust the spreadsheet accordingly when you have a better idea of what you're actually spending your money on.

TBH, I think the separate account is a bad idea. If your husband already thinks you're to blame for the overspend, he'll just see it as you trying to "cover-up your overspending".

Elle Collins

Glinda wrote: »

Sorry - mightn't have made it clear, the giant spreadsheet is for what we should be spending.

What you SHOULD be spending is neither here nor there. It's what you ARE spending you need to keep a spreadsheet on!

deisemum

Glinda wrote: »

Thanks GreenGirl, that's really helpful. I do my grocery shopping weekly, and don't really go to the shops in between. Bill for Groceries is around €90 for the weekly shop, plus about €30 on fresh goods on the weekend.

I don't ever buy magazines or newspapers or takeaway coffees. I eat lunch out once a week at work (costs around €15). Otherwise I bring lunch with me.

I don't really have time to go to the shops, my working day is long and I like to get home to the kids.

OH does look after the finances and only call me in when there's a problem, but there always is.

We do have some expensive outgoings, one summer holiday every year (costs about €3500, but we put money away every month for this) and usually a weekend break in Ireland (cheap hotel from Lidl Breaks this year, but was still lovely) in the Spring or Autumn.

I think the idea of a bills account is a good one, and maybe I'll set up my pay into an account of my own, so that I can see how much is there to spend when the essentials are taken care of.

I know we're not badly off, and I don't think for a minute we're unfortunate, but I don't think we should have money worries with the income we have and so little debt.

I don't think it's wise to have one person look after the finances, I think it's wiser that both people deal with the finances.

chakotha

The spreadsheet is obviously underestimating sundry and miscellaneous and possibly other unpredictable expenses. If it is laid out in January and always falls short then it has to be.

Maybe it is the actual costs and receipts that should be recorded as another poster said.

Glinda

Lots to think about...

Never bother reconciling bank statements - not enough hours in the day! BUT seeing as things are the way they are, maybe I need to invest some time in this.

Have told OH that I think we need to do things a bit differently. He's not happy, but agrees that we have to do something, 'cos what we're doing at the moment isn't working!

Think it's going to be a long evening.

Taltos

OP - my OH have the following

1. Separate accounts
2. Joint account - big budget expenses like mortgages

We each have standing orders set up for the following - all known
> transfer mortgage from 1 to 2 including a little buffer each for that rainy day
> Split utilities between us - eg she has ESB; I have waste & TV license etc.

Then whatever is left over is our own to spend.
If we need to save for something we increase the direct debit to the joint account.

Personally - I have a tendency to overspend without realizing it. For the last 3 mths I have a free app on my android phone where I track every cent I spend every day - and then I can analyse by category - having to enter everything is really making me realise how much goes on petrol, food etc...

There is nothing wrong with having separate accounts - where needed we can each help the other - but it forces you to be responsible for your own money as well as to be considerate of the joint expenses.
Some of my married friends think we are mad - but in most of their cases the money is all handed to the wife and she gives her husband his spending money (in those 2 cases because they have proven incapable of budgeting...)...

So - 2 options there.
1. A setup similar to ours
2. You take total responsiblity and give him pocket money - at the same time limiting access to the account and destroying all visa/laser cards...

Know which I would prefer...

LittleBook

Glinda wrote: »

Never bother reconciling bank statements - not enough hours in the day! BUT seeing as things are the way they are, maybe I need to invest some time in this.

Reconciling a bank statement takes no time at all. All it means is comparing your budget with what you've actually spent ... frankly I wouldn't even bother with your budget for now as it seems to be way off.

You can get lists of your transactions online, detailed lists which will tell you EXACTLY what is going into your account and coming out. All you have to co is copy/paste them into Excel and you have a complete picture of what's happened to your money.

Do it once a week and it takes 10 minutes, longer if you do it less often.

baby and crumble

OP, I feel your pain. I'm a grad student, so I have very little money. But by using your money smartly, you'd be surprised how much money you're spending on total crap, even when you think you're being sensible.

When myself and my partner lived together we had a pretty good system. Neither of us was on huge money (1st grad job and a phd student- our joint income was about €40,000 p/a) but we were ok for our rent and living expenses, didn't get behind with our bills and had a decent standard of living.

What we did was have a joint account that ALL our household stuff came from- rent, bills, groceries, etc. We paid by direct debit and got paperless billing (you'd be surprised the discounts you can get for those). We would each put a percentage of our money every month into the joint account- therefore the higher income paid more, but we found that a pretty fair system, as I had a grad loan to pay off. So all our bills were covered, we usually had an excess in our joint account for emergency purchases. We looked after our own phones, clothes, travel expenses, etc. I think if ALL your money is put entirely into one account and you use that for everything, it will quickly become impossible to keep on top of it. Unless you are both very meticulous, then it's easy to spend more of this 'household' money on random crap. At least if you both have your own accounts for the personal stuff, you might run out of your own spending money after 1 week, but tbh that's only your problem. If you guys both do that and keep spending anyway, that's why you are running out of money for the big stuff.

You should look at options like PAYG phones (seriously, I'm with 3 and I spend €20 a month and I have unlimited texts, unlimited weekend calls and loads of data. You could look into different options there), going with cheaper options for entertainment (NTL instead of Sky, getting bundles), switching your utilities services (ESB are much cheaper than the others now), recycling in a big way (cuts massively down on refuse charges) and watching how much pocket your kids get, etc. There are money monitoring apps on iphone and android to help you keep track of it all.

To be earning a joint income of €125,000 a year and find it hard to make ends meet on a monthly basis, then something mad is happening.

gazzer

I can totally understand where the OP is coming from. Myself and my partner have our own personal accounts where our wages get paid into and every two weeks (when we get paid) we put €700 each into our joint bank account. This leaves us with €300 each that is left in our own personal accounts. So every month we roughly put €3000 into the joint account.

This joint account is used to pay the mortgage, utility bills, shopping, petrol, insurance etc, basically all day to day expenses. This means that any money in our personal accounts is for treating ourselves and for emergencies.

We are both civil servants and we earn €38,000 each Gross. We dont have children and our mortgage is not too bad (€900 a month).

At the beginning of the year we reviewed our finances as we only ever had just enough money in our joint account to cover all our bills and we were always topping up with more money from our personal accounts. We did the following

We got rid of health insurance as it was too expensive.
We cut back on Sky movies and sports and just have the basic channels now.
We completely stopped going out for lunch.
Cut back on going to the cinema.
Only go out for drinks once a fortnight
No more takeaways.
We go up to Asda once a month and buy in bulk e.g massive bags of rice, pasta, loads of jars of sauces.

For instance last weekend both of us stayed in all weekend. From Friday after work until Monday morning we didnt spend one cent. Just watched downloaded movies and drank wine that we had in the fridge and made dinner, lunch from the stuff that we bought up in Asda last month.

We were fairly certain that we would save a fair bit of money from all the changes we made to our finances. We had budgeted that we save around €250 a month in our cutbacks from Jan 2011. So at this stage we should have had an extra €1500 euro in our joint account. However we dont. We probably have about €400 extra. We havnt a clue where the money is going. Its mental.

The only additional expense we have had in the last few months has been my trip to Glastonbury but I paid for that out of my own money. We had to pay our car insurance and motor tax in June but we paid for that from the coins we saved over the last year.

Its just mental.

nesbitt

OP

You your OH have to work out your actual spending for the next month.

May I suggest a simple exercise of listing your income for the month and then work out proper conservative list of all known outgoings for the month.

For eg. House: Mortgage, Insurances, Utility bills.
Family: Grocery & Personal Care, Creche, Babysitting, Recreation, Alcohol, Cigarettes, Takeaways, Coffees, Lunches.
Car(s): Insurances, Fuel, Tax.
Hobbies? Gym Membership? Girls/Guys Night out?

Once you both sit down and do this you should see where your money is dripping....

However please be aware that if there is some other hidden problem such as online-gambling, shopaholic trips, selfish creaming off of money on the sly for whatever purpose, that is quite an uphill climb.... That said sometimes simply free wheeling with your money and hoping for the best could be the cause of your situation.

If you are both honest, keeping a notebook for even a week listing absolutely every cent of spend can be an total eyeopener...

LegacyUser

Hi OP, I think it would be a great idea to have your own account, I have never had a joint account with my partner of over 20 years and neither of us have any desire to do so. It works really well for us and we never have any dispute about money. There were times when I earned more than him and times when he earned more than me. We paid off our mortgage early, both paying the same amount. I look after the utility bills like, TV, ESB, Phone, Groceries, he pays Our daughters college expenses and big household bills like oil or if we need new appliances. We share holiday expenses 50/50, I look after my car expenses and he looks after his.

I at this stage could not enter into a joint account, it would feel strange using that money for luxery items for myself and I would probably resent the amount he spends on cigerettes and sporting events. Not for everyone I suppose but nothing like having an "offshore account".

Taltos

nesbitt wrote: »

OP

You your OH have to work out your actual spending for the next month.

May I suggest a simple exercise of listing your income for the month and then work out proper conservative list of all known outgoings for the month.

For eg. House: Mortgage, Insurances, Utility bills.
Family: Grocery & Personal Care, Creche, Babysitting, Recreation, Alcohol, Cigarettes, Takeaways, Coffees, Lunches.
Car(s): Insurances, Fuel, Tax.
Hobbies? Gym Membership? Girls/Guys Night out?

Once you both sit down and do this you should see where your money is dripping....

However please be aware that if there is some other hidden problem such as online-gambling, shopaholic trips, selfish creaming off of money on the sly for whatever purpose, that is quite an uphill climb.... That said sometimes simply free wheeling with your money and hoping for the best could be the cause of your situation.

If you are both honest, keeping a notebook for even a week listing absolutely every cent of spend can be an total eyeopener...

We did this and quickly saw what a hole Sky was - by cancelling our sub we saved a fortune - yes we lost the Irish channels - but the extra money was more useful than the news at 601...

You have both got to be totally honest - budgets are a guideline. You need to capture the actual - and make those tough calls....

n900guy

Have a look at the free GNUcash program. It is good for setting up accounts on the coimputer and you can input all sorts in whatever categories you like. It becomes obvious in a month if you put in everything - e.g., daily newspapers incl. at weekends can be costing you €40-50/month, etc.,. It's only when you see every 1.30 + 2.40 + 5.99 added up that you notice what is being spent on what. It's not for planning a budget but more for recording every purchase - including credit cards, mortgage payments, cash in hand, bank accounts. It also calculates a default net wealth including if you put in assets like property, car with realistic valuations. If you have a mortage don't look at this

Gyms for one person in fancy places can run €800/year - or 1% of your gross yearly income if you want to put it another way.

Neyite

Op,
My partner and I are earning slightly more than what you are earning alone, and can manage, so I would suggest that a re-jig of your finances is what is required.

That spreadsheet is a Budget exercise, but you are doing it backwards. You dont spend, then look at the budget, your budget determines what you spend. If you overspend and there is no wastage, then your budget is crap because its not allowing for inevitable things that crop up such as car repairs, emergency spends and whatever.

Your husband can add up imaginary money all he likes, but will not change the fact that his budget is not comprehensive. Did he base it on his budget from last years actual expenses to give him a realistic budget? because thats what he needs to do. Its no good to plan for car tax, nct, and petrol if he has omitted the cost of tyres, servicing and possible repairs. (what the full running expenses of the car cost last year)

I would suggest a partial pooling of finances - we put a set amount into our joint account on pay day every month. From that, all the bills, rent, savings to the credit union, health insurance, and loans are paid. Grocery and household come out of that too. We fund our own lunches/ clothes/ phones from our own remaining money, and if there is an unexpected bill or payment we whoever has spare cash at the time pays it. But we are pretty laid back about who pays for what.

A friend of mine gives her husband an agreed set amount every month to cover the mortgage, bills grocery etc. and leaves the responsibility of paying for the various bill entirely up to him.

I dont see why your husband says you would be broke if you had your own account- you dont sound like you waste money at all. What does he spend money on? Is there any chance that he overspends? Is he a bit controlling about money, because he sounds like he is.

You do need to go around all the utilities and switch to better deals on offer.

LegacyUser

Hi,
Just to throw in my idea on the "not sure where money is going" part.

I'm in my late twenties but I've been working in some capacity since I was 15.
Back when I worked part time and lived at home, getting 50pound for the week felt like I was minted.

I'm now in my "career" a few years and earning good money, on paper. But up to recently I never really saved much money and always seemed to be short by pay day. I wasn't living lavishly, didn't even have my own car and shared a rented house.

Anyway, the point was this, at the start of the month I'd do my own spreadsheet of what I'd need to spend. The problem is the spreadsheet is easy to focus on Bills and Needs but convince yourself you aren't going to spend a whole lot else on discressionary stuff... but you do! If your gonna buy a sunday paper.. it needs to be in your spreadsheet!

Here's the thing... over a few months I was able to track every last thing, and just started to see where it was actually going and it sort of wakes you up. When I moved on my own, it was easy to come home from work and say "feck it, I'm too tired to cook, sure I'm earning now, order a Dominos"... but I didn't realise how often I'd do it... so I cut it back and said ok, Friday night will be takeout night. Then I realised, that with everything, plus delivery, an order was coming to nearly 30euro... so one week I just bought a pizza for Friday, about 6euro... I can even take it a step further and just buy dunnes brand for 3euro which is basically the same but you get the idea. A lot better than take out (10-15 euro minimum several nights a week)

Sorry if the pizza analogy sounds a bit silly but I've applied it to so many things really.

What was happening was that "Era, a bag of chips won't hurt me..." and "Oh, I'll just get a few bars of chocolate a a few cans and I won't spend so much going out"...
"Ah sure I'll just drive up to the shop instead of walking" (times 7 nights a week times the price of petrol)

Anyway, to sum all that up, thats where the money goes... think of all the times you get a few chips, some ice cream, a bottle of wine, buy the paper... its just a few euro in your pocket but for me personally, when I added up every penny of it over a month, all those "sure its only a few euro" expenses added up A LOT!
And its really easy not to have covered this stuff in your spreadsheet.

My advice is track THIS kind of stuff retroactively over the month, figure out how muhc you spent, realise that you DO have to allow for this sort of stuff in your budget and see where you can cut back...

Try not to worry so much also, we all have money worries. As I said, on 50pound a week I was imagining how much I could buy if I earned 100 pounds.
I earn a lot more now and I still wish I had more
No matter how much you earn, it'll always be easy to spend it, try to keep tabs on what "pops" up and you'll see where its going.

LegacyUser

Couple of things to look out for:

Mobile phone bills
Petrol bills

These are two that can easily add up each month and can easily be missed.

You guys should be able to save earning as much as you do.

Your husband doesn't like to take a punt does he? Not trying to alarm you but it does happen.

flutterflye

We have our own current accounts, and a joint savings account.

And we use online banking to transfer money to each others' accounts if needed.

You could always leave the joint account as the main pool of money, and use it for any standing orders or major purchases etc...

But also set up separate accounts, in which a weekly/monthly standing order goes into each of your new current accounts, which is used for any 'extras'.
So that way, you each have your own personal spending money, in your own accounts, and the bills/childcare/mortgage and all that remains untouched?

Regardless of the in's and out's, I do think you need separate accounts.

LegacyUser

So you've suggested separate bank accounts to your husband and he is not happy about it at all. Why would he not be happy with your efforts to fix the problem? Why is he saying things like you would be broke if you had your own account?
He should be willing and happy to try things that might fix the problem, instead of dismissing your ideas.
I really don't mean to come across offensive, but is there any chance that your husband has secret debts that you don't know about? It is a lot more common than people think.
Is there any chance he spends money on gambling or another hidden addiction that you don't know about?
Do you yourself keep track of your spending on clothes, hairdressers, beauty treatments, scratchcards etc?
Again not trying to be offensive, just exploring some other options of what the causes of the shortage of cash might be. Because with a joint income of over 125,000 a year, it is just madness that these shortages exist. As another poster pointed out, her and her partner manage fine on less than half of your joint earnings.
Money doesn't just disappear into thin air. You have to find out where it is going, and I think separate bank accounts, and YOU reviewing the statements might be a good start.

LegacyUser

I would never look at a budget for just a month at a time. You need to look at it on an annual basis. Reason being is that there are so many things that can be bimonthly - eg gas/esb or annual payments eg Car tax (unless you pay it biannually or quarterly -which makes it more expensive), Ins for house, car, life etc. Car services and so on.

I would find as many of your bills as you can for the previous year and work from there. Write down all bills you know you have. This will include also the likes of getting your hair cut, buying birthday presents, christmas money and so on as they are known on going expenses.

Then work out how much it averages at per month.
I would open 4 accounts - 2 joint and two individual to start with. Have your wages paid into your individual accounts. From this you each pay the amount that is needed for all the bills in to the first joint account. You may choose to split this 50/50 or on a ratio of your wages something like 55/45 might work for ye. Set up all your direct debits from this account. You may want to lodge an initial say €1000 just to cover any annual expenses that may crop up before you get through the first year.
In the second joint account I would have this as a rainy day fund, start by putting in say €50 a month and increase it if you can or perhaps at the end of each month see what is left in your separate accounts and you could lodge some or all of this. Alternately you could set up a separate individual account for yourself for your own long term savings. And it might be good practice to set up savings accounts maybe in the post office for the kids where you might deposit some of their childrens allowance into every month.

You also must both keep a spending diary for a while. Write down everything you spend be it .50c or €50.

I think I have covered all I was going to in that. You both need to be singing of the one hymn sheet for this to work. Oh one last thing - look at all your bills esb, gas, insurances etc and shop around for the best deals you can get. You may be paying more than you have to.
Good luck.

pickarooney

To be blunt, if you admit to not knowing where the money is going and your husband is spending time with the spreadsheets and it ends up in fights it's fairly clear he thinks you're the problem (or at least wants you to believe that, but I won't speculate for no good reason).

Added to that the fact you basically say you can't be bothered comparing your bank statements to this budget it does sort of look like you might be half-knowingly overspending... why on earth is he not doing it if it's a joint account. I'm mystified to be honest, both with the fact you're arguing without even looking at the reasons for the problem and that you can be broke on what is by most reckonings, a massive income.

K_P

One thing I'm not clear on yet:

When you say you're overspending, does that mean you don't have as much in the bank as your husband's spredsheet states you should? Basically, all bills are still being paid and you're able to save a bit each month, just not as much as your husband thinks ye should?

Or, are you overspending to the point where bills aren't being paid, you're falling into arrears on loan repayments, living off toast for the last two weeks of the month?

If it's the former, it's probably the spreadsheet that's at fault and not you or your husband. You just need to relax the spreadsheets a bit. Unless you're in serious financial difficulties, you should be allowed to enjoy the money ye both earn.

Whatever it is, a spending diary would be no harm, so you can see exactly where the money goes. If you're haemorraging money somewhere needlessly, it'll quickly identify it and help you put a stop to it.

shinikins

I can't believe that on your joint incomes you have shortfalls at the end of the month! One or both of you is overspending, and if you've been arguing about this for as long as you say you have, then you are both burying your head and hping it will go away.

• Open two seperate personal accounts to have your wages paid into.

• Sit down and average out how much you need to spend on mortgage/utilities/groceries each month and set up a direct debit to your joint account to cover this.

• Open a joint savings account to pay for holidays/unexpected purchases and set up a D/D from your personal account

Whatever is left over in your personal account is your "pocket money" to pay for haircuts, beauty treatments, petrol, lotto tickets etc. This way, all your essential bills are paid, and you won't end up argueing every month.

Glinda

When you say you're overspending, does that mean you don't have as much in the bank as your husband's spredsheet states you should? Basically, all bills are still being paid and you're able to save a bit each month, just not as much as your husband thinks ye should?

Or, are you overspending to the point where bills aren't being paid, you're falling into arrears on loan repayments, living off toast for the last two weeks of the month?

It's the former: we aren't in arrears, we have never been late paying a bill and we have no debt other than mortgage/car loan.

There is so much useful information here - took me ages to sit and digest it all. We have been having the same arguments about money since we moved in together many years ago. At that time we were living on a joint income of less than €20k, and for all of the years until I went back to work full-time I guess I always thought the problem was lack of money.

Well, I just can't tell myself that is the issue any more. It has to be the way we are handling the money we have.

I think we have to try having our wages paid into separate accounts and lodge money for joint expenses into the joint account. I will suggest we try this for a year and see how it goes.

It is great to be able to see how other people manage (I'd never discuss with friends or family - mortified)

Thanks again for all the replies
Glinda.

Glinda

baby and crumble wrote: »

I think if ALL your money is put entirely into one account and you use that for everything, it will quickly become impossible to keep on top of it. Unless you are both very meticulous, then it's easy to spend more of this 'household' money on random crap. At least if you both have your own accounts for the personal stuff, you might run out of your own spending money after 1 week, but tbh that's only your problem. If you guys both do that and keep spending anyway, that's why you are running out of money for the big stuff.

Baby and Crumble, I think you might have something here

(I don't honestly think either of us has a dark money-swallowing secret, but I suppose it's possible. Much more likely we are just making a complete a*se of things).

baby and crumble

More than likely not but I know how easy it is to overspend on random crap and all of a sudden not have money to pay the esb bill. At least if you have like a 'business' account and a 'fun' account, well.. if you run out of fun money after day 3, then you know where the problem has been all along. The odd cinema ticket here, can of coke there, take away coffees in work, all that stuff can quickly mount up to like, €100 a week, easily. Spending €20 a day doesn't seem like a huge amount, in lots of ways, but that's €600 a month, just on random crap.

You don't need to be nazi-ish about your spending- that will quickly grate and cause even more arguments! Just sensible about what 'needs' to be paid and what you'd 'like' to have.

rainbowtrout

Glinda wrote: »

Sorry - mightn't have made it clear, the giant spreadsheet is for what we should be spending.

It starts at the beginning of the year and goes through all the expected expenses for each month, mortgage, car insurance, car tax, an amount for phone bills, Sky, back to school expenses and so on. Our income for each month goes in too and that gives an idea of what the balance in the account should be at any given point in time. The problem is that the reality isn't matching the spreadsheet and we are always under by quite a long way.

Elle Collins wrote: »

What you SHOULD be spending is neither here nor there. It's what you ARE spending you need to keep a spreadsheet on!

I think this is the crux of the whole problem. Your husband has an idea in his head (and on his spreadsheet) of what your outgoings should be. While you can attempt to meet targets which is essentially what he is doing, you can't do it if you don't know what your starting point is.

Tell him to keep his spreadsheet, but to start a new one. Start with a monthly one, forget about a yearly one for the moment until you can pinpoint where your money is going. Add to it everyday, petrol, cost of lunch, atm withdrawals, as well as all the direct debits and utility bills. See where that leaves you at the end of the month.

On your husbands original spreadsheet, for example he might have had an idea that you should only be spending €200 a month on food (supermarket, milk from local shop, take-aways, whatever). If you find that your actual spend is coming to €350, then you know where your money is going and you can make an effort to cut down, it could be stopping take-aways for a while, buying cheaper brands in the supermarket, not buying the €5 tub of Ben and Jerry's when a tub of HB which is three times the size and half the price would do.

But my point is basically you can't aim for a target if you don't know where you are starting from.

Last year money was pretty tight in the last few months of the year, so last October I set up a simple spread sheet to see what I was spending my money on. Every last thing was accounted for. It only meant sitting down for 5 minutes each evening and listing what I spent money on that day.

While some of the things I spent money on were necessary (petrol) I was amazed at how I underestimated what I spent on it. I had guessed that on average I spent €20 a week on petrol, so €80 a month, I was amazed to see that I had actually spent €120 that month on petrol. Same with lunches, I can go home for lunch and usually I do, but sometimes I'm lazy and just go to the local shop and buy a prepacked sandwich or go to a local cafe with work colleagues and have lunch there. Again while spending a few euros on a sandwich , a bottle of water and maybe a bar of chocolate didn't seem like much when I was handing over a fiver or some coins from my wallet, it soon added up to €40-50 in the month, when I could have eaten at home for a fraction of the price (or brought my lunch to work).

With an income like yours you should be able to make savings easily. Start tracking what you both are spending and you will soon see where the money is going. Like Baby and Crumble said above you don't have to be nazi-ish about your spending, sometimes you need a treat and with that kind of income you should be able to afford it, but even a one month spending diary should highlight very quickly where you need to cut down or what money is being wasted on.