Portrayal of Atheists/Agnostics in School Today and How They Were Portrayed to You.

Turtwig

As the thread title says, this question bounced into my head while reading the recent string of threads on boards about religious education. How exactly does the modern curriculum explain atheism and agnostic in primary and secondary schools. Do they describe it as a belief and do they explain Agnosticism's populist but wrong definition?

In primary school I was taught they were a bunch of loopies with CRAZZZZZY notions! In secondary school it depended on the RE teacher. There were some very open minded views on it and some extremely closed minded views too. I hate to say it but my memory of religion class is filled with memories of nothing to do with actual religious education. Wait, why exactly do I hate that? Scratch it, love to say it.:D

Galvasean

When I was in primary school they were never mentioned. Swept under the carpet so to speak.

The Mad Hatter

Same as that. I'd never heard of an atheist until a friend told me the term in early secondary school. Don't think it ever came up in religion class.

axer

Had never heard of atheism either - never once mentioned in school.

Dave!

Ya, faith of some sort or another was always assumed.

Turtwig

Anyone know how today's kiddos are taught about it?:)

seamus

When I was in primary school, the concept of "other religions" was never even taught. There were no other religions. Except fecking Proddies.

In secondary school, the primary focus was on the particular sect of catholicism chosen by the school (Carmelites) and vague spirituality things. The discussion of "how do you feel about your catholicism" was brought in, in 5th & 6th year, using RE classes as a chance for students to talk in smaller groups (3 or 4) with a teacher.

It was then that I realised that these weren't really open discussion sessions. A teacher who liked me then was told by me that I had no intention of baptising my children because it's all a bunch of fairy stories, and he pretty much ignored me from that day. Even now, I've seen him a couple of times and I get no acknowledgement.

The only mention of any other religions which I can recall was my 3rd year science teacher who called Islamic fundamentalists, "a bunch of right fncking nutjobs, they're the big worry for the future". Turns out he was right.

I don't recall, even once, a class where anyone sat down and discussed other religions and what they believed. Protestants were from the other side of the planet as far as they were concerned.

And this wasn't a long time ago. I finished school in 2000.

Delirium

Had no religious education in primary school, only religious instruction.

In secondary school religion class was discussion of Catholic dogma. Only experience/notice of other religions was seeing a guy being bullied because he was Protestant.

But the one experience that stuck out for me was being instructed by a gang of older guys in secondary school, that I "had to support Celtic because you're Catholic". All because I dared to say I saw a Rangers match on tv and they played some good football. :rolleyes:

we pretty much didn't learn about anything else in primary - some references to judaism and how crazy those muslims were was about it.
i did not go to christian secondary schools so luckily it just never came up then, we didn't do religion. i also finished school in 2000... or 2001, i forget

Galvasean

Secondary school was where I found out about atheism/agnosticism ("wait, we don't have to believe this crap?"). Got the impression some of the Re: teachers were not religious, not that they would openly say it. I remember one teacher I had said he was a Buddhist but acted very much like an atheist (Bluewolf?).
Then again even in secondary school some of the older ones were pretty religious. I remember completely schooling (pun intended) one religion teacher who said when asked (by another student) if people came from apes, "That's just one theory". Of course, resident dinosaur nerd Galvasean saved the day. I remember at that exact moment everyone in the class looked at me as my hand raised as if to say, "Take her down!!!"
I did. Was made leave the class and go to the yearhead's office. Turns out he didn't like her very much neither so we spent the rest of that class chatting. The important thing is everybody learned a bit about evolution that day.

Genghiz Cohen

I think someone who didn't believe in god was called a Pagan.
That was in NS.

Genghiz Cohen

Galvasean wrote: »

a Buddhist but acted very much like an atheist (Bluewolf?).

Yo-Ho! Tis me understanding that Buddies BE atheisties...

Ellis Dee

Are you kidding?:rolleyes: In those days, the Screechin' Butchers, as we called them, were too busy laying into us with the leather or the ash plant to teach us much of anything. There was never any discussion of anything and I doubt the question of atheism ever arose in anyone's mind.:)

Not that I'm not entirely ungrateful to them, though, because they left me with something really useful and valuable - a life-long immunity to religion.:D:D

My sister has just finished her junior cert and religion was one of the subjects.
Had a quick flick through some of the past exam papers just to see what it was like, mostly the usual fluff questions.

As for Atheists/Agnostics the only question i could find on them was:
"What challenge to a person's belief does Atheism or Agnosticism pose?"

I'll see if I can get her to dig out her text book and I'll see what it says.

Genghiz Cohen

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Yo-Ho! Tis me understanding that Buddies BE atheisties...

some are, some aren't

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

some are, some aren't

Derailing my own thread here, but what kind of buddhist are you and er, well, what brought you to that irrational line of thought?:p

Genghiz Cohen

In light of new evidence, me understanding be changed!

Malty_T

Malty_T wrote: »

Derailing my own thread here, but what kind of buddhist are you and er, well, what brought you to that irrational line of thought?:p

lol
I guess my attitude is "I dont know and I dont care because I wouldn't worship any of the gods anyway". I'm not inclined to believe in the christian god certainly but for the rest, I'm a bit ambivalent.
I think alatrism would be the closest

littlemac1980

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I think someone who didn't believe in god was called a Pagan.
That was in NS.

Pagans do believe in Gods, as far as I know.

As a matter of interest how does one teach Atheism?

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

lol
I guess my attitude is "I dont know and I dont care because I wouldn't worship any of the gods anyway". I'm not inclined to believe in the christian god certainly but for the rest, I'm a bit ambivalent.
I think alatrism would be the closest

Never heard of that until now. Learn something new on this forum everyday!:D

So, like, are you a spiritual person like um, actually could you just sorta paint a picture of what it is you believe and disbelieve and we can start grilling go from there?:)

Malty_T

Malty_T wrote: »

Never heard of that until now. Learn something new on this forum everyday!:D

So, like, are you a spiritual person like um, actually could you just sorta paint a picture of what it is you believe and disbelieve and we can start grilling go from there?:)

After the debacle with yer man who believed in ghosts... no

I will say for all intents and purposes I might as well be an atheist around here - I have no intention of bringing up children in buddhism, I have no desire to preach it or convert anyone, and I would prefer secular schooling. I think that covers it...

axer

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Pagans do believe in Gods, as far as I know.

Yep, that was the ironing. When I refused to go to mass in my teens I was called a pagan by my mother as if I went off and worshipped the other gods instead of going to mass.

Turtwig

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Pagans do believe in Gods, as far as I know.

As a matter of interest how does one teach Atheism?

Get an art model, strip him/her naked in front of the class. (The majority preference of the class should help determine the sex of the model.) Tell the students:
"This beautiful naked person isn't wearing any clothes and we recognise that. Today's lesson about atheism is all about understanding that just like we don't say the person who is nude is wearing clothes, we don't say that the person who doesn't have a believe in God has a belief there is no God."

Dades

I was too busy thinking about gurls or how I had no homework done for the next class to remember much anything about RE.

I certainly don't remember anyone every bringing up other religions or lack thereof.

Turtwig

I think I should edit my original post and ask
"Did you actually pay attention to the educational content in RE?"

littlemac1980

Malty_T wrote: »

Get an art model, strip him/her naked in front of the class. (The majority preference of the class should help determine the sex of the model.) Tell the students:
"This beautiful naked person isn't wearing any clothes and we recognise that. Today's lesson about atheism is all about understanding that just like we don't say the person who is nude is wearing clothes, we don't say that the person who doesn't have a believe in God has a belief there is no God."

Ok, nice illustrative explanation, which I understand means that as an atheist you do believe in God, but you don't have a belief if the will of God. Thanks.

So do all atheists then have a belief in some God, and what is that, or if each has their own view, can I ask you to share yours?

Unfortunately my sister doesn't have her text book any more, but I've had a better look at the exam papers.
Atheism, Agnosticism, Secularism, Pluralism and materialism all seem to get the same question: "explain how they can be a challenge to a person's faith."

And the only other one I've come across is "Atheists hold that God exists, true or false?"

Another question you guys might be interested in is one from 2004
A. Describe in detail a religious world view of creation.

B. (a) Identify one similarity between the scientific and religious views of creation and explain how they are similar.
(b) Identify one difference between the scientific and religious views of creation and explain how they are different.

C. Identified below are some world views that could challenge a person's faith. Tick one only and in the space below explain how it could be a challenge to a person's faith.
Agnosticism [] Atheism [] Secularism []

Sarky

As far as I can remember I was taught that Catholics were extra-special Christians, Athiests were really pagans, Muslims were Christians that just didn't know it yet, and Buddhists were just crazy.

Good old religion class, a beacon of light and truth in a world of evil facts and reference books... Many times the discussion went like this:

"Fr., what do you believe about X?"

"The Church's teaching is this..."

"But Fr., what do YOU believe?"

"The Church..."

"No, not the Church, what about YOU?"

And so on. Poor guy. Actually, I reckon that's probably where I started to think religion was a crock. When an ordained Catholic Priest couldn't answer simple questions in a straightforward manner in religion class of all places, how could they be trusted to have the answers anywhere else?

Turtwig

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Ok, nice illustrative explanation, which I understand means that as an atheist you do believe in God, but you don't have a belief if the will of God. Thanks.

So do all atheists then have a belief in some God, and what is that, or if each has their own view, can I ask you to share yours?

We ALL subscribe to this.

KKV wrote: »

McMahonism.






For those unaware, 'Mr Mcmahon' is a character on a TV show. He believes he is better than everyone else around him, changes the rules of his company day-to-day to suit himself, is constantly being hypoctritical, never really makes sense, despite having many failures in his life, promotes himself as the best in the world at everything and is so confident that he firmly believes he is one of the richest, most powerful well known people in the world, he ignores any and all criticism of himself posed by others and instead punishes people for questioning him or his motives in the first place. He's been killed a limo explosion and came back from the dead two weeks later without a scratch, and appears to have super-human strength whenever a challenge comes his way.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

When I was in primary school they were never mentioned. Swept under the carpet so to speak.

Never heard a word about them either in school Kerry in the 70's, or Limerick in the 80's.

All I ever heard came from one elderly relative who used to say that humanism and secularism denied the true essence of the universe and our sin-ridden position within it, and both were despicably evil manifestations of Satan. And a series of interminable rants from the same lady who noted that the Soviets were atheist and look at them. Said that we'd have to commit suicide when they invaded, "Better dead than Red. Literally" and she'd help us with the poison. Fun times!

On the plus side, it fired my enthusiasm for all things Russian, not the least results of whose results is my daughter, whose mum is Russian

littlemac1980

I've lost faith in Atheists, does that make me a Christian?

robindch

littlemac1980 wrote: »

I've lost faith in Atheists, does that make me a Christian?

Nope, makes you an anatheist.

Which, I believe, is a new type of disbelief around these here parts. It'll cause you more than the usual problems at dinner parties though:

Cute person: So, what religion are you?
littlemac: I'm an anatheist.
CP: Er, do you have a stutter?

littlemac1980

I like it. It's cutting edge!

recedite

Malty_T wrote: »

Anyone know how today's kiddos are taught about it?:)

Depends on the school. The main difference today is that there are a few newer types around; educate together and the VEC schools which are more open minded.

Tonyandthewhale

In primary school in the 90's/early 00's religious education was all about catholicism and praying and getting ready for communion or confirmation or various class masses or singing hymns in the church at christmas.
In those days you were either a catholic or a protestant (oh dear) or a pagan (this covered atheists, pre-christian celts, hindus, muslims etc etc).

I distinctly remember in sixth class (2003 or 2004) the school principal wandering in for a chat and out of nowhere turning to the class and demanding, "if a madman came in here and put a gun to your head and asked do you believe in god or do you believe in rubbish what would you say?" I was pretty disgusted to hear everything bar catholicism dismissed as rubbish out of hand like that but I wasn't surprised, he was always coming out with stuff like that.

For secondary school religion a brief mention of atheism was demanded by the text-book but it was pretty cringe-worthy (lots of challenges to your faith bull****) and it was ignored as much as possible by the teachers although we brought it up as often as possible much to the chagrin of our religion teacher.

GLaDOS

I never really thought about atheism much until I started reading about it online, In NS it was all about Catholicism. In secondary up to JC it was all Catholicism with some of what the others like to think (Didn't have it as an exam subject). In LC we had a very laid back teacher and class consisted of either working on other subjects or general debates which were actually quite interesting.

The whole time atheists didn't get a look in :pac:

Galvasean

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I think someone who didn't believe in god was called a Pagan.
That was in NS.

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

In those days you were either a catholic or a protestant (oh dear) or a pagan (this covered atheists, pre-christian celts, hindus, muslims etc etc).

Now that you guys mention it I do recall in primary school being told that before St. Patrick showed up everyone was a Pagan in Ireland. Pagans didn't believe in God and therefore worshiped rocks, trees etc. and were fond of the human sacrifice and cannibalism. But Christianity, of course, brought enlightenment to the people of Ireland and civilization thrived :rolleyes:

doriansmith

I don't remember atheism being mentioned in school. I do remember other religions being talked about though. In primary school there was a Jewish girl a year or two ahead of me. Our teacher brought her into our class to tell us all about their beliefs/rituals a couple of times. That would've been when I was in first class maybe - so late 80's/early 90's-ish.

In secondary school one of our religion teachers seemed to spend more time talking about sex than religion tbh!

Undergod

King Mob wrote: »

Unfortunately my sister doesn't have her text book any more, but I've had a better look at the exam papers.
Atheism, Agnosticism, Secularism, Pluralism and materialism all seem to get the same question: "explain how they can be a challenge to a person's faith."

And the only other one I've come across is "Atheists hold that God exists, true or false?"

Another question you guys might be interested in is one from 2004
A. Describe in detail a religious world view of creation.

B. (a) Identify one similarity between the scientific and religious views of creation and explain how they are similar.
(b) Identify one difference between the scientific and religious views of creation and explain how they are different.

C. Identified below are some world views that could challenge a person's faith. Tick one only and in the space below explain how it could be a challenge to a person's faith.
Agnosticism [] Atheism [] Secularism []

So my reading of that is that faith is an automatic part of an individual's mindset, and not having it is some kind of problem or difficulty. Really?

Malari

King Mob wrote: »

Unfortunately my sister doesn't have her text book any more, but I've had a better look at the exam papers.
Atheism, Agnosticism, Secularism, Pluralism and materialism all seem to get the same question: "explain how they can be a challenge to a person's faith."

And the only other one I've come across is "Atheists hold that God exists, true or false?"

Another question you guys might be interested in is one from 2004
A. Describe in detail a religious world view of creation.

B. (a) Identify one similarity between the scientific and religious views of creation and explain how they are similar.
(b) Identify one difference between the scientific and religious views of creation and explain how they are different.

C. Identified below are some world views that could challenge a person's faith. Tick one only and in the space below explain how it could be a challenge to a person's faith.
Agnosticism [] Atheism [] Secularism []

Ah yes, religion tests. It wasn't a state exam when I did Junior Cert but I did have to sit end-of-year religion exams in 2nd Year. I was only one of two people in the year of about 140 kids not to get an A. I got a D by basically putting forth my atheist views in about 10 words or fewer to every question. I was proud. Mom was not impressed.

Delirium

Malari wrote: »

Ah yes, religion tests. It wasn't a state exam when I did Junior Cert but I did have to sit end-of-year religion exams in 2nd Year. I was only one of two people in the year of about 140 kids not to get an A. I got a D by basically putting forth my atheist views in about 10 words or fewer to every question. I was proud. Mom was not impressed.

That reminds me of one religion in TY. for some reason the class started talking about Satanism.

For whatever reason I decided to have some fun with the class/teacher. I'd seen a movie at the weekend called The First Power. I managed to use the basic rules that applied to the supernatural villain from the movie to construct a weird mess of a religion that I managed to convince them was what Satanism was like.

It was totally baffling to me that a teacher would a discussion on something that they didn't even have a basic understanding in.At the very least, he could have called me on all the BS that I was spouting :pac:

Turtwig

Amateur.

The teacher didn't care as long as you were blabbering on and taking up class time while seemingly providing a deep discussion for the class. :pac:

Calibos

Firstly, I am shocked that anyone that was in sixth class as recently as 2004 is old enough to post.

Secondly, I am shocked that in the Noughties there are still schools less liberal in their religious education than a Presentation brother Secondary school that still had a Presentation Brother principle and one or two teachers, and who's religion class is what opened my mind to Atheism because it was openly discussed, as was evolution and sex etc. This was in 1989 FFS !

littlemac1980

Hear Hear, a good teacher is a good teacher inspite of their religious beliefs.

Its about being able to educate and impart information in an objective manner.

Whether the school/teacher in question is Religious in nature should have no effect on the quality of the education, unless the teachers are not good teachers.

Boxoffrogs

I remember primary school being about Catholic indoctrination. The existence of other religions was not even acknowledged. Secondary school was very different in that we learned about other faiths. Even so, atheism was not given a mention. So no portrayal. As far as I was aware, I was alone in not believing. I'm sure a great many people thought the same. It just never came up for discussion. I did begin my schooling in the 80's though.

Sarky

Best physics teacher I ever had was a priest. He was at least able to leave his religion at the door in order to teach science. Shame that he balanced it out by interrupting every class in the school at once on the intercom for the angelus every day...

Tonyandthewhale

Calibos wrote: »

Firstly, I am shocked that anyone that was in sixth class as recently as 2004 is old enough to post.

Actually now that I think of it, I started secondary in 2004 so it would have been 2003 at the latest. In defence of my primary school some of the teachers would have been more liberal than my anti-pagan principal and there was no evolution denying and I don't remember any gay bashing or denouncing of sex outside of wedlock when we did sex-ed. There was just an assumption of at least vague catholicness which permeated the school.