Republican prisoners on protest over the non implementation of the August agreement

Wolfe Tone

Maghaberry jail is a high security prison in the north in which those who are on remand are also held. It has been damned in numerous reports which detail various failings and malpractices.

Anyway, it is in this jail that republican prisoners are held. They are in Portlaoise in the south.(in conditions which, AFAIK, are perfectly secure and satisfactory, unlike those in Maghaberry)

Last August an agreement between the prisoners and the prison was reached over strip searches and other arrangements after a period of protest. An Irish Times report on it can be read here.

“The welfare, safety and security of both staff and prisoners were central to the discussions and I’m pleased that an agreement has been reached which allows for revised arrangements and procedures, but in no way dilutes the security of the prison or those who work and live there,” Justice Minister David Ford said.

If you wish the full text of the agreement is available to read here.


This agreement was never implemented.

Recently some of the republican prisoners have once again started protesting. AFAIK this involves smashing up the cells/and or engaging in a dirty protest. Forced strip searches have not ceased, they are more frequent and violent than ever before.

Yesterday more republican prisoners started protesting, this statement was released:

Statement from CIRA Prisoners Maghaberry 30/06/11
Statement from the CIRA POWs in Maghaberry Jail

We, the Republican POWs incarcerated in Maghaberry Jail, have tonight 30th
June commenced protest action. The decision to take this action has not
been taken lightly and is a direct result of the non-implementation of the
Agreement which was signed on August 12th 2010.

This Agreement was signed by Republican POWs in good faith. It has became
clear that the British Government and their relevant departments have no
intention of implementing the agreement they signed.

Once again the British Government have embarked on a criminalisation policy
within Maghaberry concentration camp against Republicans, and as such we
are left with no alternative but to commence protest action.

We ask our families, Republicans and comrades for renewed support.

We are Prisoners of War; we cannot be broken or criminalised, and any such
attempt to do either will be met with resistance.

O/C CIRA Maghaberry

Why has the agreement, which Ford was happy with last year, not been implemented?

But David Ford said the current threat to prison officers from Óglaigh na hÉireann means security must be stepped up.

http://www.u.tv/News/Strip-searches-for-safety-of-prison-officers/63d89a5e-17a3-4b66-8f6a-2dcc6e31f119



In response to that today ONH lifted the threat it had previously made against prison officers:

The dissident terror group Óglaigh na hÉireann has lifted its death threat against prison officers.


In March, the organisation warned it had the personal details of staff up to and including the rank of governor.

The threat was linked to strip searching at Maghaberry jail.

In a statement, ONH said the Prison Service was entering into meaningful discussions to resolve the ongoing dispute at the jail and the death threat was being lifted.



The terror group said the decision had been communicated through intermediaries who asked for a statement to be made public.

The jail row was over strip searching of republican prisoners, prisoner association and lock up times.

© UTV News

http://www.u.tv/News/Dissident-terror-group-lifts-death-threat/56e88ca1-d549-4d08-bb1b-9909912e29a7


This agreement must be implemented. Even Sinn Féin who have been very condemning of republican paramilitaries(and as a result are considered by advocates of physical force groups as traitors and turncoats of the highest order, hated just as much as the British), calling them "traitors" and even going so far as to call on people to "tout" on those engaging in violence, have called for the agreement to be implemented.

Sinn Féin Vice-Chair of the Assembly Justice committee Raymond McCartney MLA (Foyle) has called for the agreement reached between prisoners and the Prison administration to be implemented in full as a matter of urgency.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/20807

Whatever your political viewpoint I believe it is best that this agreement is implemented as fast as possible.

This situation is currently the number one source of propaganda for physical force republicans. This being the 30 year anniversary of the hunger strikers, they are very quick to point out that, despite what SF may say, not that much has changed, republican prisoners today are kept, and treated, in much the same way as Bobby Sands and co where. They are right on one count, the prisoners ARE being treated in the same barbaric way as Bobby Sands and co were.

"Why would you Wolfe Tone, or any other republicans or nationalists, or indeed anyone who doesn't support any anti GFA groups, or any violence carried out by said groups, care about these prisoners?" You may ask.
First of all everyone should care about prison conditions, whether it is overcrowding in Mountjoy, or the general state of Irish prisons, or a situation like this.

Secondly this is impossible to ignore when prisoners like Gerry McGeough, someone who has not engaged in any dissident violence and voiced his opposition to recognizing the PSNI etc strictly democratically, are jailed for PIRA activities carried out decades ago and subjected to the same conditions.

This agreement, which "in no way dilutes the security of the prison or those who work and live there" needs to be implemented, even if it is simply to starve dissident groups of propaganda.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

First of all everyone should care about prison conditions, whether it is overcrowding in Mountjoy, or the general state of Irish prisons, or a situation like this.

Completely disagree. It's easy to stay out of prison and if you don't like what it's like inside there, then don't commit crimes.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Completely disagree. It's easy to stay out of prison and if you don't like what it's like inside there, then don't commit crimes.

So you don't care if jails are "unsafe, inhumane and degrading". OK, thats your opinion, I'm glad you don't run the jails.

Fratton Fred

What form will the protest take?

Will they follow Bobby Sands example?

One can only hope.

RMD

Is it not that strip searches are mandatory for all prisoners? Why should it be any different for Republican prisoners?

As said, there's a pretty easy solution available to all, don't break the law and you wont end up in there. If a person is in prison as a "Republican" prisoner at this day and age, I've no sympathy for them or why they're there.

Wolfe Tone

RMD wrote: »

Is it not that strip searches are mandatory for all prisoners? Why should it be any different for Republican prisoners?

As said, there's a pretty easy solution available to all, don't break the law and you wont end up in there. If a person is in prison as a "Republican" prisoner at this day and age, I've no sympathy for them or why they're there.

The pretty easy solution is to implement the agreement which both sides came to and were happy with.

Some are on remand, and have not been found guilty of anything.

RMD

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The pretty easy solution is to implement the agreement which both sides came to and were happy with.

Some are on remand, and have not been found guilty of anything.

I don't agree with the imprisonment of Gerry McGeough as he's just as entitled to be free as any other paramilitary member under the GFA. For the ones on "remand" though, if they're a "Republican" prisoner I have as much sympathy for them as murderers and rapists, they can face the conditions they have now and deservedly so.

Wolfe Tone

RMD wrote: »

I don't agree with the imprisonment of Gerry McGeough as he's just as entitled to be free as any other paramilitary member under the GFA. For the ones on "remand" though, if they're a "Republican" prisoner I have as much sympathy for them as murderers and rapists, they can face the conditions they have now and deservedly so.

But they are innocent until proven guilty are they not? What if they are found innocent, do they deserve the treatment? Of course not.

And what of the weight this situation lends to propaganda? I don't hear anyone complaining, organizing rallies etc over how prisoners are kept in the south. I don't see posters about them, I don't hear about tons of text messages about them being sent into my local radio station here in Louth.

As I said in my first post, it should be implemented, even if it is just to starve these people of propaganda.

Look at it like this, you have Gerry McGeogh in jail for the same reasons as Bobby Sands and co. You have him being treated the same as they were. You have the political wings claiming that nothing has really changed, this is, quite simply, propaganda gold.

You have the justice minister saying that the agreement is grand, doesn't lower security levels or affect anyones safety. Mediators came in and helped broker out that deal. It should be implemented, it makes no sense not to.

Wolfe Tone

Just one other thing, they have some sort of machine that is basically a kind of giant x-ray type thing that scans you and can tell if you have anything hidden(up your ass or whatever)

Its called a BOSS chair, you sit in it and it scans you. The agreement was that they would use that combined with a pat down, hand held scanners and a metal detector, instead of forced strip searches.

nesf

I just can't get over CIRA members calling themselves POWs, they're criminals, pure and simple and have been abandoned by the Republican movement in general so any pretense of freedom fighting has gone out the window.

BlaasForRafa

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So you don't care if jails are "unsafe, inhumane and degrading". OK, thats your opinion, I'm glad you don't run the jails.

The republicans are the ones spreading their faeces on the walls, thats hardly sanitary is it?

Wolfe Tone

nesf wrote: »

I just can't get over CIRA members calling themselves POWs, they're criminals, pure and simple and have been abandoned by the Republican movement in general so any pretense of freedom fighting has gone out the window.

Stuck in the past, as is it seems, the prison service.

Wolfe Tone

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The republicans are the ones spreading their faeces on the walls, thats hardly sanitary is it?

That quote I took was from the link in the piece Liam quoted and is about an EU report on Irish jails, unconnected to the situation in Maghaberry.

RMD

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

But they are innocent until proven guilty are they not?

Innocent until proven guilty is the concept, but if people weren't held on remand then we could have murderers / drug dealers / rapists etc walking around waiting for sentencing which in some cases can take years, hence remand is served.

Remand is only issued under the circumstances of "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause", it's not just thrown about lightly as the person remanded can easily enough sue the court system if a petty reason for remand is given.

Wolfe Tone

RMD wrote: »

Innocent until proven guilty is the concept, but if people weren't held on remand then we could have murderers / drug dealers / rapists etc walking around waiting for sentencing which in some cases can take years, hence remand is served.

Remand is only issued under the circumstances of "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause", it's not just thrown about lightly as the person remanded can easily enough sue the court system if a petty reason for remand is given.

Don't know where you got that from, since the crime packages of the nineties bail has become bastardized and been constantly misused in this jurisdiction. Imprisonment is the harshest punishment any civilized state can hand out, innocent people are being punished(not talking about republicans, I mean anyone on remand), but thats a debate for another day I guess.

The word of a high up copper is enough.

As I mentioned, they have the equipment there, the BOSS chair, which means strip searches are not needed, the prisoners want them to use that equipment, the prison agreed to but they haven't.

KeithAFC

They are in prison, not in a youth club. They deserve all they get imo.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

They are in prison, not in a youth club. They deserve all they get imo.

So you think its a good idea to treat them like sh!t, which gives the groups propaganda, which in turn helps them convince more people to join their cause? You think thats a good idea when a mutually acceptable deal was brokered?

Look past your hatred for republicans and look at the bigger picture.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So you think its a good idea to treat them like sh!t, which gives the groups propaganda, which in turn helps them convince more people to join their cause? You think thats a good idea when a mutually acceptable deal was brokered?

Look past your hatred for republicans and look at the bigger picture.

They are Irish Republican Army volunteers aren't they? So they should expect this. This is the cause they are fighting for.

Laminations

Nothing to see here folks. If you're concerned about welfare issues donate to the ispca. At least their kind don't choose to be animals.

Pfft. Complaining about strip searches....maybe stop smuggling stuff into prison?
Complaining about violent strip searches. If you are uncooperative and violent then you are the reason it doesn't go smoothly.

Serve your time and learn from your mistakes. First lesson: 'You are to blame for your situation. A sequence of poor decisions culminating in your choice to be a terrorist'

Rather than dirty protests they should have a good hard look at themselves.

Laminations

The agreement was predicated on these priciples

1. Arrangements are predicated on mutual respect;
2. Prisoner and staff safety must not be put at risk;
3. Arrangements should comply with human rights and equality requirements;
4. Revised arrangements and procedures should be achievable and sustainable;
5. Staff should be able to carry out their work professionally, free from harm, intimidation or threat;
6. The security of the establishment should not be diluted; and
7. The arrangements must strengthen public confidence in NIPS.

I doubt the prisoners upheld their end of the deal. Ya know, cooperative, respectful, non violent, non threatening.

Tough luck. Terrorism doesn't pay

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So you don't care if jails are "unsafe, inhumane and degrading". OK, thats your opinion, I'm glad you don't run the jails.

"Unsafe, inhumane"- like criminal thugs make the streets?

And how could you possibly further "degrade" someone who thinks it's OK to blow innocent people to bits?

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Unsafe, inhumane"- like criminal thugs make the streets?

And how could you possibly further "degrade" someone who thinks it's OK to blow innocent people to bits?

As you well know not everyone in jail is a physical force republican. Some are in jail for non payment of fines etc. I suggest you read the link you quoted, it details how an EU report found that conditions in some Irish jails are "unsafe, inhumane and degrading".

I was making the point that jail conditions are important. Just because someone is in jail doesn't mean they have no human rights. For instance overcrowding is a huge problem in Irish jails, it makes it unsafe not only for the inmates, but the people who work there too. I was recently at a talk where former governor of mountjoy, John Lonergan I believe was his name, said that if he could change one thing, it would be to go back to single cells. In todays world prison should not be about punishment, it should be about rehabilitation. For that to happen there needs to be decent conditions, access to educational materials, recreational materials etc etc etc. You don't seem to care about conditions in prisons, which is a very narrow minded, backward approach. Sticking someone in a hellhole to stew for five or ten years does nothing, that person will more than likely be worse than when he went in and will be back in the future. Thus conditions in prisons have a wider impact on society in general.

Everyone, including your good self, seems to be ignoring the point that physical force republicans are getting a huge amount of propaganda from this. I feel that they should be starved of propaganda. Do you not agree?

In this case it is easy to do so. Implement the agreement which both sides negotiated and agreed to. This agreement in no way reduces security. It is beneficial for all concerned.

Wolfe Tone

Laminations wrote: »

The agreement was predicated on these priciples



I doubt the prisoners upheld their end of the deal. Ya know, cooperative, respectful, non violent, non threatening.

Tough luck. Terrorism doesn't pay

What is clear is that the prison service did not hold up their end of the deal. The prisoners where prepared, and are prepared, to abide by the agreement in its entirety.

There is absolutely no reason to forceably strip search, they have the equipment already there, ready to go. I could understand the objection if the prisoners where refusing to be searched at all but the BOSS chair etc is just as effective, easier and safer for all concerned.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

As you well know not everyone in jail is a physical force republican. Some are in jail for non payment of fines etc. I suggest you read the link you quoted, it details how an EU report found that conditions in some Irish jails are "unsafe, inhumane and degrading".

I was making the point that jail conditions are important. Just because someone is in jail doesn't mean they have no human rights. For instance overcrowding is a huge problem in Irish jails, it makes it unsafe not only for the inmates, but the people who work there too. I was recently at a talk where former governor of mountjoy, John Lonergan I believe was his name, said that if he could change one thing, it would be to go back to single cells. In todays world prison should not be about punishment, it should be about rehabilitation. For that to happen there needs to be decent conditions, access to educational materials, recreational materials etc etc etc. You don't seem to care about conditions in prisons, which is a very narrow minded, backward approach. Sticking someone in a hellhole to stew for five or ten years does nothing, that person will more than likely be worse than when he went in and will be back in the future. Thus conditions in prisons have a wider impact on society in general.

Everyone, including your good self, seems to be ignoring the point that physical force republicans are getting a huge amount of propaganda from this. I feel that they should be starved of propaganda. Do you not agree?

In this case it is easy to do so. Implement the agreement which both sides negotiated and agreed to. This agreement in no way reduces security. It is beneficial for all concerned.

What propaganda? No one cares Wolfe. If you didn't post this thread, i would never of known about this and im sure it is the same with many people on here. Same with other prisoners, be it theifs, Loyalists, car jackers and so on.

The vast majority of people frankly don't care about the prison conditions they are living in.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

As you well know not everyone in jail is a physical force republican. Some are in jail for non payment of fines etc. I suggest you read the link you quoted, it details how an EU report found that conditions in some Irish jails are "unsafe, inhumane and degrading".

The thread is about physical force republicans.

And yes, there is a problem re people in prison for minor offences like fines, but that problem is that they shouldn't be in prison; the fine should be taken from their income or dole.

But any other thugs - be they republican or otherwise - can rot in hell for all I care; they chose the path that led them there, and they get fed, etc for free, with a roof over their heads which is more than many decent people have.

Commit the crime - do the time. And remember that the overcrowding is caused directly by too many people doing this - not by the state.

Commit no crime and there's no overcrowding problem for you. Or, ironically, for others

And re propaganda and stuff - your original post was the first I read about this "issue"......if you were against giving them the oxygen of publicity, why did you post it ?

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

What propaganda? No one cares Wolfe. If you didn't post this thread, i would never of known about this and im sure it is the same with many people on here. Same with other prisoners, be it theifs, Loyalists, car jackers and so on.

The vast majority of people frankly don't care about the prison conditions they are living in.

Well thats a very narrow minded approach.

So you think its a good idea to give Anti GFA people terrific ammunition to use in order to get people who are not 100% convinced about the GFA or the "reformed" PSNI to join their groups, political wings or otherwise?

Do you think its a good idea to sign up to an agreement then go back on it?

In addition to this you have Gerry McGeough, who is in no way a threat, a man with a very bad heart, being mistreated by prison guards, having his heart medication denied for no reason, being forceably strip searched in violation of the agreement the prison signed up to. Add in the fact he is in jail for a decades old incident from the troubles. People who would have supported Bobby Sands etc being treated as political prisoners are hypocrites in the extreme if they don't want something similar for Gerry today.

You can't possibly see how all of this is propaganda gold for physical force republicans?

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The thread is about physical force republicans.

And yes, there is a problem re people in prison for minor offences like fines, but that problem is that they shouldn't be in prison; the fine should be taken from their income or dole.

But any other thugs - be they republican or otherwise - can rot in hell for all I care; they chose the path that led them there, and they get fed, etc for free, with a roof over their heads which is more than many decent people have.

Commit the crime - do the time. And remember that the overcrowding is caused directly by too many people doing this - not by the state.

Talk about narrowminded. Stick someone in a hellhole, they come out worse, re-offend, people suffer, costs more in the long run.

And re propaganda and stuff - your original post was the first I read about this "issue"......if you were against giving them the oxygen of publicity, why did you post it ?

I heard it on the radio a while back, and it wouldn't be aimed at you, it would be aimed at republicans in the north. Everyone in republican circles have heard of this and Gerry McGeough. Can you imagine what would happen if, god forbid, he died as a result of being forcibly strip searched?

This is I feel, a bad practice, and the agreement should be implemented immediately.

Why are you against using the equipment which is already there instead of strip searches?

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well thats a very narrow minded approach.

So you think its a good idea to give Anti GFA people terrific ammunition to use in order to get people who are not 100% convinced about the GFA or the "reformed" PSNI to join their groups, political wings or otherwise?

Do you think its a good idea to sign up to an agreement then go back on it?

In addition to this you have Gerry McGeough, who is in no way a threat, a man with a very bad heart, being mistreated by prison guards, having his heart medication denied for no reason, being forceably strip searched in violation of the agreement the prison signed up to. Add in the fact he is in jail for a decades old incident from the troubles. People who would have supported Bobby Sands etc being treated as political prisoners are hypocrites in the extreme if they don't want something similar for Gerry today.

You can't possibly see how all of this is propaganda gold for physical force republicans?

The propaganda would be on a very small scale, not anything like it was in 1981 with Bobby Sands. If you put up a poll in here or even AH and seen how many actually care, who you would imagine are proud Irish people, you could see it not coming out in favour of the prisoners. You can already see that with some of the replies in this thread.

People are skeptical in regards to these prisoners and so, most likely don't care what prison conditions they are living in. Like i said, you see it all the time on here, be it rapists, burglars, Loyalists etc.

They have support on Irish Republican.Net but thats pretty much it.

KeithAFC

Can you imagine what would happen if, god forbid, he died as a result of being forcibly strip searched?

From what i have read and heard from hard core Irish Republicans, not many of them actually like this chap anyway and say he isn't a "real" Republican.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

From what i have read and heard from hard core Irish Republicans, not many of them actually like this chap anyway and say he isn't a "real" Republican.

If you notice most of them rapidly changed their tune once he actually got sent to jail.

Strange that you know about him, and what "hard core Irish republicans think" about him, yet "never heard" anything about prison conditions when every second thread on the republican site you frequent is about them isnt it?

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If you notice most of them rapidly changed their tune once he actually got sent to jail.

Strange that you know about him, yet "never heard" anything about prison conditions when every second thread on the republican site you frequent is about them isnt it?

I have heard about this guy, not the whole prison conditions and get updates about it every day, like some people in the Republican movement would. A good number of threads aren't about POWs either.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

I have heard about this guy, not the whole prison conditions and get updates about it every day, like some people in the Republican movement would. A good number of threads aren't about POWs either.

Well if someone of a loyalist mindset like yourself who occupies his time by posting sectarian bile about Irishmen on the internet, has heard of Gerry, then you can imagine that lots of republicans would be familiar with his case and how he is being treated.


End of the day, treating the prisoners like crap and not abiding by the agreement helps the anti gfa cause.


Look at Portlaoise, things are handled grand there, why can't they do similar in the north seen as cross border cooperation is all the rage these days.

Look at it this way, I was banned from that site for "anti republican comments" decrying armed actions and those who do it. I'm firmly against any form of armed campaign, the fact that I am here posting about the prison conditions illustrates the issue here. Someone less convinced in his beliefs than myself could be persuaded.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well if someone of a loyalist mindset like yourself who occupies his time by posting sectarian bile about Irishmen on the internet, has heard of Gerry, then you can imagine that lots of republicans would be familiar with his case and how he is being treated.


End of the day, treating the prisoners like crap and not abiding by the agreement helps the anti gfa cause.


Look at Portlaoise, things are handled grand there, why can't they do similar in the north seen as cross border cooperation is all the rage these days.

Look at it this way, I was banned from that site for "anti republican comments" decrying armed actions and those who do it. I'm firmly against any form of armed campaign, the fact that I am here posting about the prison conditions illustrates the issue here. Someone less convinced in his beliefs than myself could be persuaded.

You really should get over it Wolfe. A PIRA supporter trying to take the moral high ground is not really funny and doesn't help your thread.

Your losing the basic argument in that you say it will help the propaganda for them when not a lot of people have heard about them or actually care, even if they have. So its a no win situation.

Perhaps they would be better not getting caught and going to prison, that way they won't get treated like they do (allegedly :rolleyes:).

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Talk about narrowminded. Stick someone in a hellhole, they come out worse, re-offend, people suffer, costs more in the long run.

Again, that's their choice. Not my problem. and if they weren't in there in the first place the above wouldn't happen.

Everyone in republican circles have heard of this and Gerry McGeough.

OK so - educate me. Who is Gerry McGeough? What did he do to end up in prison? And why does he need to be searched?

And factual answers only, please, with no bias or misplaced pathos.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Again, that's their choice. Not my problem. and if they weren't in there in the first place the above wouldn't happen.

It is! The come back out, re-offend, committing more crimes! It affects you, then your tax pays to keep them in prison etc etc.

OK so - educate me. Who is Gerry McGeough? What did he do to end up in prison? And why does he need to be searched?


And factual answers only, please, with no bias or misplaced pathos.

His is a father of five, a committed catholic and a school teacher. He is a former member of the PIRA. In 1981 he shot an off duty UDR soldier who survived. He was a high up member of SF for many years and left in 2007, over his opposition to the party voting to support the PSNI, and also because the party was adopting positions at odds with his religion. He went forward for election as a protest candidate against the decision to support the PSNI. He was arrested at the count centre in 2007, charged and this year convicted of attempted murder(of the soldier) and sentenced to 20 years, he will serve 2 under the GFA. He also has a weak heart which requires daily medication, and recently he has missed court appearances to be rushed to the hospital.

He is no advocate of armed campaign, as I said up to 2007 he was a high up member of SF.

They strip search people randomly, and going to and from court, visits etc. As I said this is not necessary with the advanced equipment they have installed.


(Im off out at this point and won't be back until tomorrow I'm afraid, 'll be delighted to answer any questions/address points then )

nesf

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

It is! The come back out, re-offend, committing more crimes! It affects you, then your tax pays to keep them in prison etc etc.

Works the other way too though, if prison's too soft then it's no longer a threat.

I'm curious though, why are they carrying out strip searches on CIRA inmates? What did the CIRA boys do?

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

It is! The come back out, re-offend, committing more crimes! It affects you, then your tax pays to keep them in prison etc etc.

Again your starting point is them being IN prison. My point is not to end up in there.

His is a father of five, a committed catholic and a school teacher. He is a former member of the PIRA.

"Committed Catholic" ? As in follow The Ten Commandments, including thou shalt not kill ? I asked for the facts, not propaganda.

In 1981 he shot an off duty UDR soldier who survived.

So he attempted to murder someone and thankfully failed? Why didn't you say so?

He was a high up member of SF for many years and left in 2007, over his opposition to the party voting to support the PSNI, and also because the party was adopting positions at odds with his religion.

Genuinely trying not to laugh......murder isn't against his supposed religion, but agreeing with a political party is? What policies did he view as being "against his religion" ? Would one of them have been the support for the GFA by any chance ?

sentenced to 20 years, he will serve 2 under the GFA.

Interesting anomaly - my vote has stopped him serving 90% of his sentence. Maybe he'd prefer to be serving the full sentence as would have been the case if the GFA never existed ?

He also has a weak heart which requires daily medication, and recently he has missed court appearances to be rushed to the hospital.

So much for my request for no pathos! How many court appearances would the soldier have missed if this guy had his way?

Wolfe Tone

nesf wrote: »

Works the other way too though, if prison's too soft then it's no longer a threat.

I'm curious though, why are they carrying out strip searches on CIRA inmates? What did the CIRA boys do?

Prison policy to do strip searches. They didn't do anything in particular, and this isn't an opposition to searches, they accept there is a need for them, but they say that the BOSS chair etc should be used instead.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Again your starting point is them being IN prison. My point is not to end up in there.



"Committed Catholic" ? As in follow The Ten Commandments, including thou shalt not kill ? I asked for the facts, not propaganda.



So he attempted to murder someone and thankfully failed? Why didn't you say so?



Genuinely trying not to laugh......murder isn't against his supposed religion, but agreeing with a political party is? What policies did he view as being "against his religion" ? Would one of them have been the support for the GFA by any chance ?



Interesting anomaly - my vote has stopped him serving 90% of his sentence. Maybe he'd prefer to be serving the full sentence as would have been the case if the GFA never existed ?



So much for my request for no pathos! How many court appearances would the soldier have missed if this guy had his way?

Liam I gave facts which you asked for.

His heart condition is relevant as strip searches and the stress involved could kill him, as well as guards withholding his medication. As for him shooting a soldier, he would have been regarded as a legit target, I'm done wasting my time with you, you never take anything on board at all and simply seek out things to get morally outraged, a la Joe Duffy, at.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Liam I gave facts which you asked for.

His heart condition is relevant as strip searches and the stress involved could kill him, as well as guards withholding his medication. As for him shooting a soldier, he would have been regarded as a legit target, I'm done wasting my time with you, you never take anything on board at all and simply seek out things to get morally outraged, a la Joe Duffy, at.

I don't take one-sided propaganda and bull from any side. Someone cannot be "a committed Catholic" and agree with murder; it's true that one cannot be one and have sex outside marriage, either, so he wouldn't be the first to lie about his level of allegiance, but I asked for facts and you loaded on the bias and propaganda in spades.

BTW - never listen to Joe Duffy so if you can't listen to or handle a straight-talking direct opinion without resorting to slurring me by associating me with that rubbish cliché then yeah, count me out.

But count me out the next time I've to vote to let murderers out after 10% of their sentences too, if they're gonna whinge about conditions that many a decent person who deserved charity would gladly accept.

getzls

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Last August an agreement



An agreement? Feck them, who do they think they are.

junder

The BOSS chair is a glorified metal detector, ie it detects metal er go non metal things such as drugs will not be detected meaning strip searches are still needed

KeithAFC

junder wrote: »

The BOSS chair is a glorified metal detector, ie it detects metal er go non metal things such as drugs will not be detected meaning strip searches are still needed

We might not know the full story. They could be making it all up to be honest. Lets not forget what they are.

Wolfe Tone

What the hell are the prison service and Ford at? They hammer out a deal, then go back on it. He gets a report done up last year, doesn't implement the main recommendations for no reason.

The mind boggles

southsiderosie

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I was making the point that jail conditions are important.

No, you're only raising the issue because it affects Republicans.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Just because someone is in jail doesn't mean they have no human rights. For instance overcrowding is a huge problem in Irish jails, it makes it unsafe not only for the inmates, but the people who work there too. I was recently at a talk where former governor of mountjoy, John Lonergan I believe was his name, said that if he could change one thing, it would be to go back to single cells. In todays world prison should not be about punishment, it should be about rehabilitation. For that to happen there needs to be decent conditions, access to educational materials, recreational materials etc etc etc. You don't seem to care about conditions in prisons, which is a very narrow minded, backward approach. Sticking someone in a hellhole to stew for five or ten years does nothing, that person will more than likely be worse than when he went in and will be back in the future. Thus conditions in prisons have a wider impact on society in general.

I absolutely agree. And as I have said, every time you raise this issue, there are lots of prisons across the UK that have the same problems of overcrowding. If people care about how republicans are treated in prison, then they need to agitate for general prison reforms because 1) there are only a small subset of people who care about this from a Republican angle and 2) few would agree that these people deserve special treatment because they think they are POWs.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Prison policy to do strip searches. They didn't do anything in particular, and this isn't an opposition to searches, they accept there is a need for them, but they say that the BOSS chair etc should be used instead.

Again the problem that you and other Republicans seem to have with this is that they are treated as common criminals. If it is standard procedure to strip search prisoners (and there are legitimate reasons for this) then as long as it is done in a sanitary way, I don't see what the problem is.

Cathal O

The bottom line is, is that while these people (CIRA, RIRA UDA etc ) sicken me, the government agreed to certain conditions that ought to be implemented. Hundreads of thousands of tax payers money has went into these discussions with intermediary et all involved. If the government do not implement these conditions then they are no better at keeping to their word , possibly even worse than those they are supposedly better than

Wolfe Tone

southsiderosie wrote: »

No, you're only raising the issue because it affects Republicans.

I absolutely agree. And as I have said, every time you raise this issue, there are lots of prisons across the UK that have the same problems of overcrowding. If people care about how republicans are treated in prison, then they need to agitate for general prison reforms because 1) there are only a small subset of people who care about this from a Republican angle and 2) few would agree that these people deserve special treatment because they think they are POWs.

Again the problem that you and other Republicans seem to have with this is that they are treated as common criminals. If it is standard procedure to strip search prisoners (and there are legitimate reasons for this) then as long as it is done in a sanitary way, I don't see what the problem is.

So why do you feel the agreement, or even Fords report, should not be implemented when it seems to be beneficial for all concerned?

The problem with strip searches is that they are repeated in often unnecessary circumstances and are used as a weapon against the prisoners. In addition it is not supervised. There is a perfectly valid alternative which "in no way lowers security". It seems much better for all concerned to use that rather than require a load of guards to batter someone who refuses.

Of course I'm raising this because it concerns republicans, specifically McGeough, thats why its so important, the wider ramifications this has for the various anti GFA groups. As you can see there has just been a page long article about how the prisoners are being held in conditions reminiscent of the H - Blocks. Add in McGeough who is there for a "crime" in 1981 and the parallels are obvious. The physical force groups maintain that nothing has changed, their "pows" being treated the same as McGeough, in a very similar way to how the blanket men were after 1976, is ideal propaganda.

As I said in the south republican prisoners are held in a perfectly secure way. Ford says the agreement in no way lowers security. The report agrees. Seems obvious to me to implement one or the other if only to starve them of major propaganda.

Its not as if both sides haven't made concessions and agreed to do it in the first place.

Wolfe Tone

Cathal O wrote: »

The bottom line is, is that while these people (CIRA, RIRA UDA etc ) sicken me, the government agreed to certain conditions that ought to be implemented. Hundreads of thousands of tax payers money has went into these discussions with intermediary et all involved. If the government do not implement these conditions then they are no better at keeping to their word , possibly even worse than those they are supposedly better than

Yes indeed, and it also gives weight to the "Brits can't be trusted" line anti gfa groups like to run with

southsiderosie

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So why do you feel the agreement, or even Fords report, should not be implemented when it seems to be beneficial for all concerned?

The problem with strip searches is that they are repeated in often unnecessary circumstances and are used as a weapon against the prisoners. In addition it is not supervised. There is a perfectly valid alternative which "in no way lowers security". It seems much better for all concerned to use that rather than require a load of guards to batter someone who refuses.

Of course I'm raising this because it concerns republicans, specifically McGeough, thats why its so important, the wider ramifications this has for the various anti GFA groups. As you can see there has just been a page long article about how the prisoners are being held in conditions reminiscent of the H - Blocks. Add in McGeough who is there for a "crime" in 1981 and the parallels are obvious. The physical force groups maintain that nothing has changed, their "pows" being treated the same as McGeough, in a very similar way to how the blanket men were after 1976, is ideal propaganda.

As I said in the south republican prisoners are held in a perfectly secure way. Ford says the agreement in no way lowers security. The report agrees. Seems obvious to me to implement one or the other if only to starve them of major propaganda.

Its not as if both sides haven't made concessions and agreed to do it in the first place.

But this prison is not in the south. It is in the UK.

I will ask you just as I do in all of these threads: do you really think this is a Maghaberry problem, or a UK problem? Because everything that I have read about prisons in England suggests the latter, but you keep insisting on the former. And what I am saying - and have said repeatedly - is if people want to actually have comprehensive reforms, rather than just try to score points against the British government, then it would be more effective to target these conditions as a systemic problem, rather than a Republican problem.

Wolfe Tone

southsiderosie wrote: »

But this prison is not in the south. It is in the UK.

I will ask you just as I do in all of these threads: do you really think this is a Maghaberry problem, or a UK problem? Because everything that I have read about prisons in England suggests the latter, but you keep insisting on the former. And what I am saying - and have said repeatedly - is if people want to actually have comprehensive reforms, rather than just try to score points against the British government, then it would be more effective to target these conditions as a systemic problem, rather than a Republican problem.

Why dont you think either the recommendations in Fords report, or the agreement, should not be implemented? Its a simple question which you ignored.

Seeing as this thread is about the agreement and conditions in Maghaberry...

southsiderosie

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why dont you think either the recommendations in Fords report, or the agreement, should not be implemented? Its a simple question which you ignored.

Seeing as this thread is about the agreement and conditions in Maghaberry...

Because I don't think the British government sees NI as the center of the universe the way people in NI do, and they are ok with treating prisoners like **** regardless of their political persuasion. Maghaberry is no different than many English prisons in this regard. But like most things related to NI, there is a myopia about issues there that in part contribute to the fact that they never actually get resolved.

Also, you are neatly stepping around the fact that I actually agreed with you about the fact that prison conditions are bad for prisoners and society alike. What I take issue with is that you almost never address questions posed to you when asked to consider a matter while not wearing your republican glasses.