The John Hayes Appreciation Thread - Bull to retire after RWC.

thomond2006

Hayes absence from Munster squad signals end of road for Red legend

JOHN Hayes could have played his last game for Munster after the province confirmed they have no plans to extend his contract beyond the World Cup.

The legendary prop will turn 38 in November and was left out the 45-man squad published by the province earlier this week, fuelling speculation that he is set to retire after the tournament in New Zealand.

The Cappaghmore man has played 201 times for Munster, winning two Heineken Cups and two Celtic Leagues during his 13- year stint. He has won 104 caps for Ireland, but has been out of favour at international level since the November Series.

"John Hayes is contracted to Munster until after the World Cup. The squad announced on our website is the one contracted for the 2011/12 season," a Munster spokesperson said.

The veteran was named in Declan Kidney's extended squad for the World Cup warm-up and reported for pre-season training at Carton House this week.

If he doesn't make the final cut, he would be available for Munster in the first two months of the season. His last game was the Celtic League Grand Final win over Leinster, after which he declined to be drawn on his long-term future.

The Munster squad assembled in Cork yesterday to begin pre-season training minus the Irish players and coach Tony McGahan, who has been detained briefly in Australia due to a bout of illness.

New signings BJ Botha and Ian Keatley were among the new faces, while 11 academy players have been handed full-time contracts for this season.

- Ruaidhri O'Connor
Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/hayes-absence-from-munster-squad-signals-end-of-road-for-red-legend-2810999.html

Wow, what can you not say about this man. Consummate professional on and off the field. A humble, modest individual who went about his work quietly, shying away from the limelight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGfPoTklGg

For a guy who has been criticised for his scrummaging, to play a full 80 minutes and win a penalty try from a scrum right at the end in a final when you're near 38 years old is just incredible.

Watch from 1:50:

He wasn't the greatest ball carrier, he didn't possess magical handing but he was as strong as an ox when it came to defending as a pillar to the breakdown. His greatest attribute was his lineout lifting, would the Munster and Ireland lineout have been the same without him? I don't think so.

Typical to the man, his retirement comes with little fanfare. It shouldn't be that way but that's the way Hayes would have it. Hopefully he can end his career on a high in New Zealand, he held the Munster and Irish scrum steady when nobody else put their hand up. The games home and away to Saracens in 2000, the miracle match against Gloucester, the great semi-final against Wasps, the Heineken Cup victories in 06 and 08. Hayes was there for all of them.

Thomond Park will always be your field Bull! A Munster LIGIND forever!!

peckerhead

+1. Great tribute to a player and a gentleman (the two don't always go together).

PhatPiggins

Bit early for this thread? He's definetely going to play in August/September

thomond2006

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Bit early for this thread? He's definetely going to play in August/September

True but since this is basically the announcement of his retirement I thought I may as well throw in a tribute post.

Hopefully this will bumped in October!

Otacon

It was an honour to meet him after the Magners League Final in the team's hotel. We were having a wedding reception there and he happily talked to us before heading out himself.

He is still my mother's favourite!

buck65

Definitely a crowd favourite in Thomond. Glad to have seen him and indeed the likes of Quinlan play so many times. We really are witnessing the golden era of Irish rugby, soak it up guys we may not see the likes again for a while.

buck65

Definitely a crowd favourite in Thomond. Glad to have seen him and indeed the likes of Quinlan play so many times. We really are witnessing the golden era of Irish rugby, soak it up guys we may not see the likes again for a while.

Guy:Incognito

thomond2006 wrote: »

For a guy who has been criticised for his scrummaging, to play a full 80 minutes and win a penalty try from a scrum right at the end in a final when you're near 38 years old is just incredible.

While having a horrendously illegal bind (he was litterally pulling his leg)

I was in the terrace , that show I saw it, its not in the video.

thomond2006 wrote: »

True but since this is basically the announcement of his retirement I thought I may as well throw in a tribute post.

There might be a WC win tacked on to the end of the tributes when he actually does retire.

God I'll miss this man.

Superbus

The kind of player whose sportsmanship transcends provincial rivalry bullcrap. Was a constant through a decade of unprecedented growth in Irish and Munster rugby, and thus was an indisputably huge part of that same growth.

ormond lad

2 Heineken Cups, 1 Celtic Cup and 3 Magners League, A Grand Slam, 2 Lions cap's, 4 triple crowns, 100+ caps for Ireland, 200 for Munster and an average of 5 points for every 50 games played.

"Go on Bull, tis your field"

durkadurka

I think every Irishman has a great man love for the guy.
He's the Irishman we'd all sort of like to be in some way.

No tweeting, no Celtic tiger about him, no glamour. Humble, modest, plain, hard as nails, can lurry spuds into himself and I'd say he can lash into the pints too!

Crying during the anthems in Croker. I just knew we were going to kick seven kinds of sh1t out of England when I saw that.

We won't see his like again.

durkadurka

This is a gem

Brian P

I had the great pleasure to see him play in all of his home games (and some away) with the great Shannon team of the 90s. I used to love those Saturday afternoons when he,along with Galwey, Halvey, Foley and others, used to break the hearts of every club side in Ireland.

theboss80

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mf919_qRGE

Badgermonkey

Sums up everything I love about the game.

He also made culchie cool.

Ciaran-Irl

theboss80 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mf919_qRGE

That's very well done. Fair play if you made that.

LeeroyJones

Delighted to be giving my 1000th post to one of the legends of the game. They don't make them like John Hayes anywhere else in the world! Tremendous ambassador to Munster & Irish rugby.
In an era when we give a lot of attention to limelight seekers (not in rugby, just generally) we sometimes forget the true heroes so I feel it is important to recognise the Bull for all he has offered!!!

durkadurka

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Sums up everything I love about the game.

He also made culchie cool.

Sean o brien seems to be inheriting this mantle

Charledontsurf

A Munster and Ireland legend. Who's gonna lift Paulie now?

laugh

The way he fired O'Connell into the air in some of those big Ireland matches, I'll never forget the image of how high he seemed to be above the England locks.

sentient_6

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Sums up everything I love about the game.

He also made culchie cool.

That reminds of a quote i read in i think the indo the time he got called up (possibly a bit late) for the lions in 2009: 'the cows will take care of themselves'. :P class.

thomond2006

jacothelad

Brilliant. Maybe there's more to Campbell than meets the eye if Donners is pally with him.

andrewdcs

True legend, or should that be ligind, surely he stays on with schools / Bruff and Munster after the WC in some role no? unreal experience etc.

CatFromHue

i think this has been handled poorly.

effectively he is being retired rather than retireing i.e. he wasnt in the squad for next season and wasnt mentioned in that press release at all.

whether he didnt want to be mentioned i dont know or whether munster are covering themselves in case they might need him after novemeber again i dont know.

durkadurka

I suspect the Bull doesnt want the glorious farewell.

CatFromHue

maybe so but for the munster branch to just not say anything is poor form.

maybe he is thinking of moving club!

Profiler

Sad to see him go, he put his body on the line time after time for club, province and country. He is deserving of every honour, medal and word of praise that has come his way and then deserving of some more.

He was a player that did the dirty work that didn't make the headlines as often as it should.

I have not met him but he strikes me as a quite individual who keeps to himself, I liked hearing the stories of him shunning the "celebrity life" so he could return to the family farm.

What will be my abiding memory of him will be of a man who rarely gave much away about himself, quietly spoken but one clearly driven by a massive passion for Munster and Ireland.

Think of any huge game Ireland played in the last decade, you can picture in your mind the TV camera panning down the line of the familiar Irish faces. Amhrán na bhFiann playing, being sung... and then... John Hayes's tear stained face.

Croke Park, 24th of Februray 2007, this big strong man, not in the least bit self conscious openly crying while millions watched.

We all knew what that day meant, I just got the impression on seeing his face that Hayes knew more than most. That is when when the last few remaining hairs on the back of my neck stood up and I knew we were going to witness something special.

Thanks for the memories John, when will we see your like again?

JustinDee

jacothelad wrote: »

Maybe there's more to Campbell than meets the eye

There is but it would be libellous. 'The Thick of It' isn't far wrong.

thomond2006

Profiler wrote: »

Think of any huge game Ireland played in the last decade, you can picture in your mind the TV camera panning down the line of the familiar Irish faces. Amhrán na bhFiann playing, being sung... and then... John Hayes's tear stained face.

Croke Park, 24th of Februray 2007, this big strong man, not in the least bit self conscious openly crying while millions watched.

We all knew what that day meant, I just got the impression on seeing his face that Hayes knew more than most. That is when when the last few remaining hairs on the back of my neck stood up and I knew we were going to witness something special.

twinytwo

someone sumed him up before as being prob one of the few men alive that could kill a bear( i assume he ment with his hands):D

ShamFeen

Thank God I'm playing with him and not against him! Great read!

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/thank-god-im-playing-with-him-not-against-him-113274.html

kerosene

very good article. I hope he does make the world cup this year a perfect end to a great career.

Profiler

kerosene wrote: »

very good article. I hope he does make the world cup this year a perfect end to a great career.

I don't think he should be in the squad, I think Father time has caught up with him.

I'm not sure that he's got what it takes to play test level Rugby anymore and I suspect the Irish management team see it that way too.

danthefan

kerosene wrote: »

very good article. I hope he does make the world cup this year a perfect end to a great career.

I really really hope he doesn't. Professional sport is not about sentiment. He shouldn't be there.

durkadurka

Someone tweeted this excellent article



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The Bull on the field and farm
THE SATURDAY INTERVIEW: JOHN HAYES*He may have just turned 36, but Ireland’s most-capped player’s appetite for rugby is as strong as ever – though he can live without the celebrations, writes KATHY SHERIDAN*

FOR AN INTERVIEWER, the challenge is not the subject who lies, dissembles or reinvents himself. The worrying one is the star without ego, the man who can’t fathom why anyone would want an interview, then explains away his extra-ordinariness by saying he got there by instinct and . . . eh, that’s it. A man like John Hayes. “I don’t make conscious decisions to do it. I just do what comes naturally . . .” This could be the shortest interview in history.

In John Hayes’s world, it’s a good day when he can slip away entirely unnoticed. Then he can fold his mighty 6ft 4in frame into the Mondeo and trundle on home to the family farm in Cappamore, Co Limerick, to the same fields where he and generations of Hayeses grew up and learned to be judges of cattle, where he and Fiona are now rearing the next generation in a newly built home, cheek by jowl with his parents. As Keith Wood put it: “Never has so little been said about an international sportsman. He has the persona of a ninja, if not quite the stealth.”

So self-effacing is Hayes that his absence hardly registered at the carnival homecoming after Ireland’s Grand Slam in March. By the time Tommy Bowe was rocking central Dublin with The Black Velvet Band*, Hayes was already home in Cappamore. Is that carrying self-effacement a bit far?

“I just had a new little baby,” he says. “I asked Declan and I knew it was a big ask not to go to a civic reception in Dublin. Roisin was two weeks old and I’d only seen her twice – the day she was born and a bit of a day the week after that – and that was it. So I just wanted to go home. So I said it to Declan on the plane and he said ‘grand’, and I got a taxi organised from Dublin to the hotel to get the car and drove home. I was home by the time they got to the stage and I was watching them on television.” And happily sending jokey texts to his pack mucker, Donncha O’Callaghan, telling them to quit making a fool of young Tommy up on the stage.

Hayes has never been a feature of the big-match homecomings and celebrations. Sitting in the Ballykisteen Hotel and Golf Resort in Co Tipperary – where the Munster team has been encamped this week, a short drive from the Hayes homestead – he’s as relaxed as he could ever be. But it doesn’t come easy.

“I don’t know why,” he says. “It’s just the way I am. I don’t make a decision to do it, it’s for no reason. I’m probably a bit shy compared to the other lads. I’m probably more comfortable in these surrounds, around the lads and not out in public. But yeah, I’m most comfortable at home.”

The woman who keeps him happy at home is Fiona Steed, Ireland ’s most-capped women’s rugby international. They married five years ago after meeting in Shannon RFC and their juggling act is as frenetic as any couple with two tiny daughters, his travelling schedule and her work as a physiotherapist at Nenagh regional hospital while coaching Munster women’s rugby. It’s just as well Fiona wasn’t desperate to live in Tipperary or somewhere.

“I go to get milk and bread in the shop in Cappamore and you meet fellas that you went to school with or grew up with, that know your father – and you just chat away,” Hayes says. “That’s just where I’m happiest.” Those close to him say he would have been as discomfited by the public attention surrounding his recent suspension for stamping on Leinster’s Cian Healy as by the investigation itself.

“He’s quiet, fierce honest, the heart and soul of the team,” says Donncha O’Callaghan. “I try to use him as an example. He’s the kind of guy who, whether he’s out there in a cup match against Perpignan or in a friendly against London Irish, gives the same performance. It’s that mental strength he has over everyone.”

After the incident, friends say that Hayes’s disappointment at letting his team down would have been foremost in his mind. For every fair-minded rugby fan, the first thought was the uncharacteristic nature of the offence. After 12 years in the furnace of professional rugby, playing the most physically demanding position on the field and presenting a 6ft 4in magnet for ear-biters, eye-gougers and worse, the man nicknamed “The Bull” had incurred a couple of sin-binnings and no red cards. So what came over him?

“I didn’t intend to do it,” he says. “I said to Cian after the match that I didn’t mean to do it, and he said, ‘I know you didn’t’.”

The disciplinary committee believed him too, and said so, but it handed down a hefty suspension, veering towards the top end. He will never say it himself, but though he had the option of pursuing a dismissal on a technicality – a line successfully taken by others – he was determined to fight an “honest” case. Having done so, it is said, he felt poorly served by the system. Today there is no sense of victimhood or self-justification, just a reiteration that he didn’t mean to do it. What’s done is done.

IT’S THAT SAME perspective he brings to notorious incidents such as Thierry Henry’s handball against Ireland and the occasion when Leicester’s Neil Back arguably denied Munster a European Cup victory in 2002. It’s a presumption of honesty.

“It wasn’t premeditated with Henry, that’s the only thing you can say about it. It was an instinctive thing he did. I wouldn’t go after him personally for it, not at all . . . It was an instinct – 99 out of 100, he’d have got caught,” he says. “I don’t think Neil Back either was thinking: ‘When Stringer puts out this ball now, I’m going to knock it into the scrum.’ If he’d been caught, he would have got a yellow card, there would have been a penalty, we would have won . . . He got away with it, but it wasn’t premeditated. Premeditated stuff is different to instinct.” What’s done is done.

He is a beast of a man, as Keith Wood put it, and exudes the mildness often observed in big men who have no need to assert themelves. He barely makes it under the door-frame. He’s “a human fork-lift”, to quote Gerry Thornley, a sight capable of rekindling the optimism of the most defeatist rugby fan. For Munster supporters in a hard-knock run, there are few more cheering spectacles in a hostile stadium than the unfurling of the massive red banner with the words: “Go on Bull, ’tis your field.”

Shifting around in a chair built for less heroic frames, he is every inch the farmer/ welder he set out to be. Apart from the ears. They look like they’ve been rebuilt after a fashion, with shiny plastic. “Yeah, they’re cauliflower ears,” he says, grinning benignly under the slightly appalled scrutiny. “That’s the scar tissue from when your ears get crumpled from scrums and it builds up.”

But what do you do to each other out there? “Ah, it’s just from getting bangs.” Bangs ? “Ah, you get a bang from shoulders or hips in the second row. Some fellas don’t get them. I get them, I have to put up with them. I get fresh cuts on them every week, but they heal up. It used to hurt, but it doesn’t any more.”

And that interesting scar above your eye? He laughs. “That’s from years ago, when I was a child. Not rugby.”

As a boy, neither he nor his schoolmates in Doon CBS could have dreamt of making a living from sport. “I was huge into GAA,” he says. “When I was young, rugby wasn’t widespread, it was just in Limerick city. There were towns like Clanwilliam and Bruff that started it – like Bruff is a great little club in a little country village – and they’ve spread it.”

But GAA was all he played until he was 19. He recalls watching the Ireland-Australia match in the 1991 World Cup and something stirred. A year later, he lined out in the back row for Bruff in a scoreless draw against Newcastlewest. Legend has it that he was applauded off the pitch – “it was only some of the boys,” he says – and that it happened at an ensuing Tuesday-evening training session.

A cuter lad might be suspected of sniffing the promise of the professional era, but Hayes says it never even crossed his mind. “At that stage, there was no indication of it – not in this country or hemisphere anyway.”

So, for the boy from a rural, staunchly GAA heartland, what was the big attraction? Curiosity, he says. He’d tried everything else, including soccer. “I knew the way I was playing rugby first that I was going to stay playing it. Straight away, I just clicked with it. Yeah, I was more bruised and battered than usual, but there was just something about it.” But what? “I suppose, as a forward , you’re always involved in something, but if you’re playing GAA, you’d be up at one end of the field and you mightn’t see the ball for a few minutes. In rugby, you’re constantly into something, so I think it might be that.”

After his Leaving Cert, Hayes trained as a welder and made a contented living at it until June 1998. In 1995, at the age of 21, he struck out for New Zealand , in the company of Kynan McGregor, a Kiwi who had played rugby for Bruff and was heading home. “I went to play a bit of rugby, just to go some place for a while,” he says. “I was out there working as a welder, just playing some club rugby .”

It sounds relaxed and homely. In fact, you have to delve to discover that he went out to New Zealand a boy, weighing 15 and a half stone, and came back a man, two and a half stone heavier. There are unsurprising intimations of loneliness and challenge, as a rural Irish boy living alone in a strange country, playing rugby against “hardy boys” with boots flying and no touch judges putting out flags or mimsy citing commissioners.

THE YEAR HE came back was the year rugby went professional. “It was still nowhere remotely my intention that I would end up pro,” he says. “I was still learning the game at that stage. As it happened, I was lucky I did that.”

He had sharpened his skills at Shannon, under coach/mentor Niall O’Donovan, had then got involved with Munster and Declan Kidney and had “done a few squad trainings” when he began to wonder. “I suppose I did start to get a bit of a drive to play pro because I’d been playing with and against pros and was thinking I wanted a piece of that.” Because you were that good ? “No. Just that I wanted a go at that.” Right.

On the face of it, he doesn’t buy into the tooth-rattling Munster-Leinster rivalry, saying: “There’s always a great atmosphere, but no hostility.” Did the semi-final loss at Croke Park hurt more because it was Leinster ? “No. It was bad – but it was bad because we lost by a good score. In a big semi-final we didn’t perform, and that’s the upsetting thing. The bar is rising every year. You just have to keep going. Even if you’ve set the bar last year, that doesn’t mean it’s where it’s going to stay for this year. Someone else might raise it. It’s obvious the way to succeed is by being really intense and catching up with each other.”

He laughs at the notion of the cultural divide. “I get slagged here in Munster for being a country fella, by lads who’re from Limerick.” (That would be townie Keith Earls). “But Leinster is Leinster, not Dublin. They’ve fellas like Sean O’Brien, who are from the province of Leinster – he’s from Carlow. Or Shane Horgan from Meath, or Gordon D’Arcy from Wexford . . . There’s no great difference any more.”

The world of rugby is taking on quite the rural tinge. Sean O’Brien is a working farmer, as is Rory Best. “He came down to Roscrea to buy pedigree Angus cattle there recently. Trevor Hogan, John Fogarty – they were born on to farms.” In fact, there is a theory – not expounded by Hayes – that Leinster ’s more recent outreach to rural and farming stock accounts for at least some of its recent success. Or did Munster spill too many secrets at that famous Enfield meeting designed to stir the internationals’ souls?

“No,” Hayes says, grinning. “There’s too much altogether made out of that meeting. It was a good meeting, like any other goal-setting meeting you’d have before any tournament. That’s all it was.” After a nudge, he concedes that “we just understood each other better”.

Is it a cruel business, where every public appearance is a fresh job application? “That’s the nature of what we’re doing . . . The young fellas live for it. They’re mad for it. They’re so full of enthusiasm that fellas like me can feed off it. You can look on it as a threat for your position or as a fella you can just play with.”

His modest, deliberate, farmer ways might suggest that his lean 130kg build and stamina come easy. In fact, he is as disciplined as any athlete. He never indulges in fried food (beyond the odd stir-fry) and gave up alcohol about four years ago. “I used to drink pints, never too much, but stopped because I’d be waking up in the morning after a match sore from the match and sore from drinking. I didn’t know which was worse, so I thought one would be enough. And I stopped.”

His top advice to boys is born of observing the human body’s fragility. “The main thing would be to go to college and get a qualification. If you want to get into professional rugby, you can do that as well. It’s hard to do both but I know some of the younger lads at Munster who’ve done it and I think it’s a great thing to have because of the danger of injury.”

Just turned 36, the oldest player in the Munster squad, he is miraculously injury-free himself. “I didn’t start young – that’s stood to me now. I’d be sore the day after an international, sore every place: your neck, your back from scrummaging, your shoulders from tackling, from where you’re hitting people or people are hitting you. It’s just the way the game is. People have said that rugby has become more and more professional, fellas are getting bigger and stronger, they’re getting bigger younger and younger . . . Smaller fellas are bulking . . . And it’s just getting harder and harder. You have to move with it.”

He takes a philosophical approach to the risks that have landed some young men in rehab. “There’s a lot more people in there from car accidents going down the road than rugby.”

By now, he’s shifting a bit more in the chair. Farm and family are waiting. It’s a suckler farm, run mainly by his father, but “there’s always the fodder and the feeding to be done, and cleaning out the yards.” The question about retirement is batted away with a poker face. Any notion of it? “None. I’m going to try and enjoy it as long as I can. I’m loving it still.”

Will he know when the time has come? “I’ve heard from other players that they just didn’t want to go out on a cold day training any more, or didn’t want to do this or that, and I haven’t felt that yet. But apparently, you just know.” Pause. “And no. There’s no sign of it.”

Go on Bull, ‘tis still your field.

EARLY YEARS*

Born John James Hayes on November 2nd 1973. Grew up on a farm in Cappamore, Co Limerick. Attended Doon CBS and trained as a welder.

CAREER*

Nicknamed “The Bull” (and “Pillar One”), he is the most capped player in the history of Irish rugby. Started playing for Bruff at 19, was nurtured at Shannon and Munster, then made his first international appearance against Scotland on February 19th, 2000. Has helped Ireland to a Grand Slam and four Triple Crowns, and has won two Heineken Cups with Munster.

PIVOTAL MOMENT*

A suggestion by Bruff man Willie Conway that the 19-year-old Hayes go up to

skregs

I know I'm killing a sacred cow here, but the man was never as good as people made him out to be.
Because he's been playing for years, and seems like a stand up bloke with no pretensions, this mythology has built up around him like he's one of the greatest players we've ever produced.


I would've consistently rated Phil Vickery higher than him over their careers.
What is it, 3 six nations trophies including a grand slam, 2 world cup finals, one world cup win, 2 heineken cup trophies and three English Prem trophies?
Picked ahead of Hayes for 2 B&I Lions tours too, and you could argue that Hayes was only there to replace an injured Vickery in '05.




Anyway, flame away

blackdog2

skregs wrote: »

I know I'm killing a sacred cow here, but the man was never as good as people made him out to be.
Because he's been playing for years, and seems like a stand up bloke with no pretensions, this mythology has built up around him like he's one of the greatest players we've ever produced.


I would've consistently rated Phil Vickery higher than him over their careers.
What is it, 3 six nations trophies including a grand slam, 2 world cup finals, one world cup win, 2 heineken cup trophies and three English Prem trophies?
Picked ahead of Hayes for 2 B&I Lions tours too, and you could argue that Hayes was only there to replace an injured Vickery in '05.

Anyway, flame away

Hayes' record is not bad for somebody who couldn't scrummage though!

justsomebloke

skregs wrote: »

Anyway, flame away

and by flame away, he obviously means DON'T FLAME AWAY people

totallegend

skregs wrote: »

I know I'm killing a sacred cow here, but the man was never as good as people made him out to be.
Because he's been playing for years, and seems like a stand up bloke with no pretensions, this mythology has built up around him like he's one of the greatest players we've ever produced....


Anyway, flame away

The fact that you're apologising in advance of actually criticising him probably reflects the fact that people have an emotional attachment to Hayes that is, at this stage anyway, unconnected to his ability on the rugby field. No-one feels the need to say anything like that before ripping into Tomas O'Leary, Paddy Wallace etc etc.

Look, the fact is that Hayes was never a world-class prop; he was always lauded for his attitude and his work-rate but that is not the primary job of the tight-head prop. Then, as he got older and he couldn't get around the field, suddenly we were being told that he was the best line-out lifter in the game and O'Connell's game was suffering without him, bizarre stuff.

Hayes was a solid performer who probably had the wrong body-shape and came too late to the game to be a top-class scrummager, not his fault but that's the way it was. He racked up a fantastic number of caps and filled what would have been a massive void at tight-head, but he was not one of the all-time greats.

Edit: The fact that I'm using the past tense reflects my opinion that under no circumstances should he be brought to the World Cup.

ciarriaithuaidh

skregs wrote: »

I know I'm killing a sacred cow here, but the man was never as good as people made him out to be.
Because he's been playing for years, and seems like a stand up bloke with no pretensions, this mythology has built up around him like he's one of the greatest players we've ever produced.


I would've consistently rated Phil Vickery higher than him over their careers.
What is it, 3 six nations trophies including a grand slam, 2 world cup finals, one world cup win, 2 heineken cup trophies and three English Prem trophies?
Picked ahead of Hayes for 2 B&I Lions tours too, and you could argue that Hayes was only there to replace an injured Vickery in '05.




Anyway, flame away

You come out with "Phil Vickery was better than John Hayes" and seem to think that makes you some genius troll? It doesn't. JH was never a top class international prop.
However,he himself did also get selected for 2 Lions tours, Win a Grand slam,3 Triple crowns,2 Heineken Cups and play 106 test matches, so don't go telling me he was shyte now!

He was quite simply the best TH prop in this country for 8 years with nobody anywhere near his level.

It's irrelevant that Vickery was a better prop, because he didn't play for Munster or Ireland. Hayes might well have been a step better had there been competition for his place, but that's not to say that he was complacent with the Jersey.

Take care John.

Brian P

Deleted User wrote: »

He was quite simply the best TH prop in this country for 8 years with nobody anywhere near his level.

Summed up perfectly.

phog

skregs wrote: »

I know I'm killing a sacred cow here, but the man was never as good as people made him out to be.
Because he's been playing for years, and seems like a stand up bloke with no pretensions, this mythology has built up around him like he's one of the greatest players we've ever produced.


I would've consistently rated Phil Vickery higher than him over their careers.
What is it, 3 six nations trophies including a grand slam, 2 world cup finals, one world cup win, 2 heineken cup trophies and three English Prem trophies?
Picked ahead of Hayes for 2 B&I Lions tours too, and you could argue that Hayes was only there to replace an injured Vickery in '05.




Anyway, flame away

I really don't see the point of your comparison, as Vickery couldnt' play for Ireland.

Comparing one guy's trophies record against another's in a team sport is just plain stupid.

GerM

Deleted User wrote: »

He was quite simply the best TH prop in this country for 8 years with nobody anywhere near his level.

I think that's an indication of his amazing longevity and durability but also a damning indictment of the development of players in this country during the early part of the century. He was a fantastic servant and good international but he wasn't world class. That his spot never came under genuine threat reflects very poorly on the systems that were in place at the time and it was situations like this that probably contributed to the academies being introduced.

GerM

GerM wrote: »

I think that's an indication of his amazing longevity and durability but also a damning indictment of the development of players in this country during the early part of the century. He was a fantastic servant and good international but he wasn't world class. That his spot never came under genuine threat reflects very poorly on the systems that were in place at the time and it was situations like this that probably contributed to the academies being introduced.

While I am easily convinced that you are correct, and also I think you can add that our conservatism in not giving anyone else a chance at competing for the Ireland Jersey, that's not John Hayes' fault, in fact, it's got nothing to do with him.

I'm loathe to overhype players, or talk about players as if they're more than they are, but John Hayes doesn't deserved to be lumped into the "Kevin Kilbane group - The Loyal Servants who weren't much use when you really think about it". He probably hasn't been up to it for the last few seasons, which is fair enough, but Hayes was a fan favourite not simply because of his character. He got around the park enough, he "pillared" more rucks than the average player, but in fairness to him, he did what was asked of him often enough to be counted. We've never had a destructive scrum, but there were plenty of periods where our scrum could compete just fine with Hayes at TH. His lineout lifting is pandered around too often as an excuse for him to still be involved, yet, at the same time, anyone questioning his discipline and strength in lifting is insane imo. He really was a lineout nerd, much in the way Ross is a scrum nerd. It's no coincidence that the tapering of JH's career is correlated with our lineout's ability imo. With Hayes lifting, we could be a destructive lineout far more effectively than we are now.

I would consider myself a rational fan, and not one who lets emotional response get in the way of my assesment of a player. I've vociferously questioned the thinking behind having him play till he can't walk, and the fact that I genuinely don't think that he could play 60 minutes of rugby at a level that is required on the international scene. I did this because I said it was sad to see these be the abiding memories of the man. I want to remember John Hayes lifting lads 14 feet into the sky, I want to remember him dragging lads off the deck to realign the defence.

His number of caps for club and country, and his unwillingness to get injured, and also his disciplinary record (one blemish aside) speak marvels about the man. John Dependable Hayes.

A good sod.

cython

phog wrote: »

I really don't see the point of your comparison, as Vickery couldnt' play for Ireland.

Comparing one guy's trophies record against another's in a team sport is just plain stupid.

Too right. If only considering trophy count you could say that Sergio Parisse, while good, is vastly inferior to a hell of a lot of other back rows, but it really isn't as simple as that now, is it?

laugh

If he wasn't a great lifter, how the feck did POC get that high in the air above Shaw etc ?

totallegend

laugh wrote: »

If he wasn't a great lifter, how the feck did POC get that high in the air above Shaw etc ?

Don't think anyone said he wasn't a good lifter.

skregs

phog wrote: »

I really don't see the point of your comparison, as Vickery couldnt' play for Ireland.

My point is that he was lucky to play for a country with no props, because he wouldn't be anything more than a journeyman for any team in the six nations/tri nations