US MNC's cannot fill 2,000 jobs, despite 450,000 people unemployed...

HellFireClub

What do you make of this???

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0701/jobs-business.html

Where are these 2,000 jobs advertised???

Jarren

US firms in Ireland have 2,000 vacant jobs to fill but are struggling to find suitably skilled employees in some areas.

That is all really

HellFireClub

jarecki1976 wrote: »

US firms in Ireland have 2,000 vacant jobs to fill but are struggling to find suitably skilled employees in some areas.

That is all really

Last time I worked in a US MNC, the work certainly wasn't rocket science, engineers with masters degrees admitted that their work was more secretarial than anything else and any person with half an ounce of cop on could do it standing on their head.

I have to wonder if it is anything like this situation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69885026

Of course it could also be that we're not genuinely skilled enough...

Cookie_Monster

I would imagine a lot of those positions are for jobs where a second language is key. Most Irish don't seem to have a second language to a suitable degree, certainly true of my company.

I know I don't, partly cos English being first language makes it more difficult straight away, partly cos so much time is wasted on Irish which has no use in the employment world for 99% of people and partly the awful standards of teaching and learning and choices of languages in our schools

RichardAnd

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I would imagine a lot of those positions are for jobs where a second language is key. Most Irish don't seem to have a second language to a suitable degree, certainly true of my company.

I know I don't, partly cos English being first language makes it more difficult straight away, partly cos so much time is wasted on Irish which has no use in the employment world for 99% of people and partly the awful standards of teaching and learning and choices of languages in our schools

To be quite honest, I often find that many Irish people can't even be said to have a firm grasp of the english language, let alone any other. I'd put it down to text messages and perfunctory efforts from certain teachers.

Cookie_Monster

RichardAnd wrote: »

To be quite honest, I often find that many Irish people can't even be said to have a firm grasp of the english language, let alone any other. I'd put it down to text messages and perfunctory efforts from certain teachers.

d0nt b a h8er, lol

sarumite

bluewolf wrote: »

I have to wonder if it is anything like this situation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69885026

Of course it could also be that we're not genuinely skilled enough...

I have fairly recently left an Irish university with a PhD and I would have difficulties with some of the degrees said university was handing out. As a PhD student, we had to supervise undergraduate labs. Unforunately the instruments we used were 10 years out of date and many of the techniques we were teaching were completely obsolete and they were not even being thought the newer techniques. I am not saying that all universities, or even departments within the universities all have this problem, though its difficult to see how these particular students will be competitive when their skills are already obsolete before they have even graduated.

syklops

HellFireClub wrote: »

What do you make of this???

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0701/jobs-business.html

Where are these 2,000 jobs advertised???

Well for starters, from the article, there are 30 jobs going at Onwave. So you could try there.

Nijmegen

This would be where the rhetoric over a highly educated workforce meets reality. The number of students taking physics in the leaving cert has fallen 25% since the 1990's, and that's only 14.7% of all students.

Our lack of math and science interest - and attainment - leads directly to a fall down in attainment in computers, programming, engineering, etc - math and science based topics.

R&D is the future for a 'smart' economy that cannot price compete on making the stuff a Chinese or Vietnamese worker will make for little or nothing.

Yet in Ireland we can't even assure multinationals that kids learning math are being taught by a teacher who is themselves qualified in the subject? A study by UCD showed that only 29% of physics teachers have a degree with a primary focus on the topic! It points out that in Scotland you won't get a job as a physics teacher without a major in physics. Seems outlandish, no?

The number of students taking higher level math in the leaving cert is at an all time low - of the 55,550 who took the leaving cert this year, only 10,435 were registered to take higher level and 20% or so were expected to drop to ordinary level come exam time. In other words, a mere 15% of our leaving cert students are sitting higher math, and not all of them will go on to do math focused degrees in the R&D areas we need.

Only 13% of students are taking science in third level. And then there's all sorts of difficulties to dig into there, with classes with wide ranging skill sets having to be addressed with deficiencies in math and other subjects.

We've produced a nation that does not have the skills to match the requirements of our economy.

thebman

We aren't alone really, many other first world countries have the same problem.

Because you can't just memorise maths and get through.

Yet our entire early education focuses on memorisation and doesn't try to teach in a way that students actually understand what they are learning.

Just *** the information at them and hope it sticks. Also it seems to be a factor that many people that grew up in construction boom Ireland think they'll just get a handy degree and not go for difficult subjects like science and that will do them in the real world little realising there are tens of thousands of people in the country with the same qualification as them making it not worth a whole lot really unless they go on to a higher level than degree in those courses.

Riskymove

I have a relation that works in HR for such a company and they are constantly looking for certain software developers, they cannot expand as they cannot get them.

they have hired more people from India etc than here in recent times

thebman

Well don't be shy, some of us are programmers :P

hmmm

Are these 2000 jobs of the "20 years java and c++ experience, 14 years solaris sysadmin experience, Oracle DBA, qualified accountant and doctor, salary 20k rising to 25k with OTE" type? Because looking at some current job ads I can understand some companies who say they are unable to find suitably qualified staff.

Lu Tze

Nijmegen wrote: »

This would be where the rhetoric over a highly educated workforce meets reality. The number of students taking physics in the leaving cert has fallen 25% since the 1990's, and that's only 14.7% of all students.

Our lack of math and science interest - and attainment - leads directly to a fall down in attainment in computers, programming, engineering, etc - math and science based topics.

R&D is the future for a 'smart' economy that cannot price compete on making the stuff a Chinese or Vietnamese worker will make for little or nothing.

Yet in Ireland we can't even assure multinationals that kids learning math are being taught by a teacher who is themselves qualified in the subject? A study by UCD showed that only 29% of physics teachers have a degree with a primary focus on the topic! It points out that in Scotland you won't get a job as a physics teacher without a major in physics. Seems outlandish, no?

The number of students taking higher level math in the leaving cert is at an all time low - of the 55,550 who took the leaving cert this year, only 10,435 were registered to take higher level and 20% or so were expected to drop to ordinary level come exam time. In other words, a mere 15% of our leaving cert students are sitting higher math, and not all of them will go on to do math focused degrees in the R&D areas we need.

Only 13% of students are taking science in third level. And then there's all sorts of difficulties to dig into there, with classes with wide ranging skill sets having to be addressed with deficiencies in math and other subjects.

We've produced a nation that does not have the skills to match the requirements of our economy.

I have to call bull**** on this as for 10 years we have been hearing the same thing. If the market needed math/science/engineering graduates that badly, they would be paid a premium. It would be rare for science/math/engineering graduate of the last 10 years to have been paid more than an english and history graduate teacher - so why bother? I am making an exception for the medical graduates here. If they are needed so badly where is the premium over that of a hairdresser or bricklayer?

Riskymove

thebman wrote: »

Well don't be shy, some of us are programmers :P

ok firstly:Senior software engineer


Qualifications

The ideal candidate will possess skills and experience in some or all of the following:

• Knowledge in OO development principles and multi-tier web application design required
• 3+ years experience with ASP.NET and C#
• .NET framework 3.5+
• HTML, CSS, XML
• JavaScript / jQuery
• Ajax libraries
• SOA / Web Services (ASMX, WCF)
• MS SQL Server / T-SQL
• Automated Testing tools (NUnit, MSTest, WatIn)
• Windows Installer XML
• Structured Project Methodology

Desirable but not essential:

• Team Foundation Server
• Teradata Macros
• UML
• Data Analysis and Design
• Data Modeling

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

Are these 2000 jobs of the "20 years java and c++ experience, 14 years solaris sysadmin experience, Oracle DBA, qualified accountant and doctor, salary 20k rising to 25k with OTE" type? Because looking at some current job ads I can understand some companies who say they are unable to find suitably qualified staff.

yeah something not right with the claim that they cant get 2,000 people with the right skills........has me wondering why they would make sure a claim? There must be a reason...........its hardly that they want the government to pay their employees wages like the WPP & internship schemes

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nijmegen

Lu Tze wrote: »

I have to call bull**** on this as for 10 years we have been hearing the same thing. If the market needed math/science/engineering graduates that badly, they would be paid a premium. It would be rare for science/math/engineering graduate of the last 10 years to have been paid more than an english and history graduate teacher - so why bother? I am making an exception for the medical graduates here. If they are needed so badly where is the premium over that of a hairdresser or bricklayer?

Why pay a premium when you can import them from abroad for the same money Irish kids won't accept? Colleague of mine ran HR in such a multinational who had a full time employee devoted to housing and settling people and families they hired across Europe and the world.

Why this culture of entitlement that they should receive such big pay premiums out of the gate?

The salary surveys indicate a big premium in lifetime earnings. Not to mention that the premium today is €188 a week to a salary!

ferike1

As long as the standards of science and maths keep dropping in this country don't except the Irish to fill the jobs.

InigoMontoya

ferike1 wrote: »

As long as the standards of science and maths keep dropping in this country don't except the Irish to fill the jobs.

Not to mention English. :pac:

I am pie

Lu Tze wrote: »

I have to call bull**** on this as for 10 years we have been hearing the same thing. If the market needed math/science/engineering graduates that badly, they would be paid a premium. It would be rare for science/math/engineering graduate of the last 10 years to have been paid more than an english and history graduate teacher - so why bother? I am making an exception for the medical graduates here. If they are needed so badly where is the premium over that of a hairdresser or bricklayer?

No, they don't need to artifically inflate the wages to create incentive, they simply hire from overseas. I can assure you that in US MNC's in Dublin a multinational workforce is very common.

Lu Tze

Nijmegen wrote: »

Why pay a premium when you can import them from abroad for the same money Irish kids won't accept? Colleague of mine ran HR in such a multinational who had a full time employee devoted to housing and settling people and families they hired across Europe and the world.

Why this culture of entitlement that they should receive such big pay premiums out of the gate?

The salary surveys indicate a big premium in lifetime earnings. Not to mention that the premium today is €188 a week to a salary!

My point is if something is in demand there is normally a premium value allocated to it. We have been told for 10+ years that ireland needs more maths and science graduates. If this was the case the market would have adapted and paid them more. If you can import the same quality then fine, there is no problem - but stop harping on about the lack of Math/science/engineering graduates.

This has nothing to do with entitlement of pay premiums by the way, i was just pointing out that if Math/science/engineering graduates are actually needed that they need to incentivise it to get people to do it, and thats what they have lacked in their 10 year of preaching the same message. Why do something as time consuming as higher level maths when there is no benefit, only the detriment of your other results of you continue it.

Lu Tze

I am pie wrote: »

No, they don't need to artifically inflate the wages to create incentive, they simply hire from overseas. I can assure you that in US MNC's in Dublin a multinational workforce is very common.

Then why would you ever worry about Irish not taking up maths and science?
I had my share of fourier series and laplace tranforms in my time but what is the benefit? I cant get a job in ireland at the moment (I am working abroad). I am due to comeback in december and it is no bebnefit to have this background.

ferike1

There is always a demand for those people that know how do maths properly (at an advanced level). There are lots of highly paid quant finance jobs for example.

ardmacha

If they are needed so badly where is the premium over that of a hairdresser or bricklayer?

Bricklayers are not needed at all, demand remains high for people with maths skills.

I am due to comeback in december and it is no bebnefit to have this background.

There is detail in what job you would get or wouldn't get, but it is quite misleading to say that is not of benefit to have a quant background.

Lu Tze

ardmacha wrote: »

If they are needed so badly where is the premium over that of a hairdresser or bricklayer?

Bricklayers are not needed at all, demand remains high for people with maths skills.

I am due to comeback in december and it is no bebnefit to have this background.

There is detail in what job you would get or wouldn't get, but it is quite misleading to say that is not of benefit to have a quant background.

Show me this demand for those skilled in, or with a background in mathematics.

ferike1

http://www.efinancialcareers.ie

There are some jobs posted in the last two weeks for quants

Lu Tze

ferike1 wrote: »

http://www.efinancialcareers.ie

There are some jobs posted in the last two weeks for quants

Despite doing a year of statistics i have no background or experience in finance. Though i know quite the number of my profession have been doing masters in financial maths.

I'll continue to ply my trade abroad until i am needed at home though.

ardmacha

I'll continue to ply my trade abroad until i am needed at home though.

That's your choice. The point is that you have a choice, unlike those for whom there is little at home or abroad.

Nolanger

Will there ever be a report published correlating the fall in science/maths subjects taken in the Leaving Certificate with the decrease in male school teachers?

Scofflaw

Lu Tze wrote: »

My point is if something is in demand there is normally a premium value allocated to it. We have been told for 10+ years that ireland needs more maths and science graduates. If this was the case the market would have adapted and paid them more. If you can import the same quality then fine, there is no problem - but stop harping on about the lack of Math/science/engineering graduates.

This has nothing to do with entitlement of pay premiums by the way, i was just pointing out that if Math/science/engineering graduates are actually needed that they need to incentivise it to get people to do it, and thats what they have lacked in their 10 year of preaching the same message. Why do something as time consuming as higher level maths when there is no benefit, only the detriment of your other results of you continue it.

I have to agree with this, as an ex-scientist turned web developer. I think the problem may be that what there is demand for is for cheap scientists and engineers, because research is a cost area, but there are a series of different, and quite complex issues in each field.

In programming, part of the problem there is that if you're good enough to fit the bill of items posted by corporate HR departments, you're usually good enough to freelance - and many programmers appear to prefer the latter. Another part of the problem is that HR people aren't programmers, and tend as a result tend to insist on excessive specs and lots of certification to take the place of being able to discern quality in candidates.

In science, part of the problem is that there really isn't such a thing as a "scientist" who can take up a scientific position. You've either studied, say, photophoresis or you haven't - if what you studied was the habits of tree frogs, your skills are simply irrelevant. So each scientific position has only a small market - and offering more money will not increase the pool of available relevantly qualified applicants (within reasonable limits). Similarly, for each qualified scientist, there is only a small pool of available positions every year. The "market for scientists", then, doesn't actually exist - it consists of hundreds and hundreds of smaller markets. Within those markets, bargaining power often lies with the employer, despite the apparent shortage of scientists overall. When a position comes up that demands knowledge of laser photophoresis, there will probably be about a dozen relevantly skilled candidates in the country, and the chances are that if the position is half-way decent, half of those will apply, putting the power firmly in the hands of the employer. And while the employer has the choice of whether to pursue an R&D line that involves photophoresis, the photophoresis specialist would take several years to gain equivalent expertise in another field, even a related one.

So scientific jobs tend to use a different metric of desirability than salary - the research budget and facilities, for example, or support for publication. That's not to say that scientists wouldn't like to be paid better, but there's no real incentive for employers to offer better pay - instead, they can put the money into the capital costs of equipment, and pay the researchers themselves less. Contracts are also, and for similar reasons, shorter-term than they might otherwise be (and let's not even get started on the post-doctoral route into academia).

Unfortunately, the things that attract the mass of young people into professions from outside are very simple - money, glamour, security. You can do well enough with two of those - accountancy lacks glamour, but nobody is complaining about a shortage of accountants. Science lacks all three. That tends to leave the field to individuals who want to do it despite the absence of the three main drivers - you need to want to become a scientist anyway. And that very feature, again, helps put the power in the hands of the employer - the employer has something the photophoresis guy wants, which is a photophoresis lab and the chance to do some research.

The majority of school goers cannot see the satisfaction in being a scientist, and so will not even take the hard option of studying those subjects if it can be avoided, because what they qualify you for is entry to a poorly-paid, little regarded, insecure and difficult career. Until that changes, the circle will not be squared by any number of happy-clappy goodwill science outreach programmes. Accountancy doesn't have them, nor does modelling, nor banking, because those careers sell themselves. People do like science, but most people don't like it enough to give up nearly everything else a career usually offers.

To be fair, the above reflects the worst possible view of the situation, but it's the reason that out of any given graduating class of scientists, you can usually find less than half of them still in scientific research a decade later.

cordially,
Scofflaw

tails_naf

sarumite wrote: »

I have fairly recently left an Irish university with a PhD and I would have difficulties with some of the degrees said university was handing out. As a PhD student, we had to supervise undergraduate labs. Unforunately the instruments we used were 10 years out of date and many of the techniques we were teaching were completely obsolete and they were not even being thought the newer techniques.

I agree with this in part - but depending on the subject area - using the latest instrument or technique does not an excellent scientist or engineer make.
In the sciences area in particular, the purpose of university is to teach you how to think in that area, to understand the fundamentals, and maybe then brush off the cutting edge. We had out-dated equipment too - and in some ways that made us have to work all the harder to get results, because the equipment didn't do it all for us and wrap it up in a bow.

hmmm wrote: »

Are these 2000 jobs of the "20 years java and c++ experience, 14 years solaris sysadmin experience, Oracle DBA, qualified accountant and doctor, salary 20k rising to 25k with OTE" type? Because looking at some current job ads I can understand some companies who say they are unable to find suitably qualified staff.

People shouldn't be put off by the job description. Of course employers will put out the best-case-scenario - but if you go in a demonstrate you know 1/2 of the topics very well, an ability to learn/understand, and general sharpness, you will land yourself a job. I have seen job descriptions that were actually impossible to meet, in terms of the number of years experience in a certain technology - so don't be put off by the lofty 'ideal' candidate statements.

Lu Tze wrote: »

I have to call bull**** on this as for 10 years we have been hearing the same thing. If the market needed math/science/engineering graduates that badly, they would be paid a premium. It would be rare for science/math/engineering graduate of the last 10 years to have been paid more than an english and history graduate teacher - so why bother?

The market certainly does need these people - hence the 2,000 jobs that can't be filled. The problem here is the lead time between supply and demand - back around 2000 with the dot-com bubble, lots of people wanted to go into eng/programming - as they were well paying jobs at the time. When the jobs dried up overnight, the demand of university placed dropped off - and couple that with people making silly money for laying bricks, massive salary inflation across the board, etc - no one wanted to bother with the sciences.

However, there is a premium paid after a few short years. Sure a eng grad may start on 22k and a teacher on 33k - but in 10 years, if the engineer is a good one - he/she will be on 50-60k, and perhaps a bonus, and the salary scale goes well beyond that for more experienced people.

Salaries in the US for these jobs would be between 120k to 150k for 10-12 years experience, and start at 60k for grads - and they still have to 'import' loads of overseas workers because their education system does not produce enough of them - and neither does ours.

Sticky_Fingers

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And how would you know this Permabear, have you had experience to allow you to compare IT's and Universities?

Well I have and I can assure you that the eduction I got from the IT was far superior than that obtained from the big name Uni. Both degrees were in a similar field of study (and in the same city for that matter) and the IT course, teaching methods and facilities wiped the floor with anything the university had to offer.

Nijmegen

Lu Tze wrote: »

My point is if something is in demand there is normally a premium value allocated to it. We have been told for 10+ years that ireland needs more maths and science graduates. If this was the case the market would have adapted and paid them more. If you can import the same quality then fine, there is no problem - but stop harping on about the lack of Math/science/engineering graduates.

This has nothing to do with entitlement of pay premiums by the way, i was just pointing out that if Math/science/engineering graduates are actually needed that they need to incentivise it to get people to do it, and thats what they have lacked in their 10 year of preaching the same message. Why do something as time consuming as higher level maths when there is no benefit, only the detriment of your other results of you continue it.

Ahh, the efficient market hypothesis! The trouble with that is that the market fulfillment comes from a rather slow public sector education system, and the graduates can be sourced from abroad to Ireland at the same cost as the market is willing to pay - the joys of open labour markets.

If the heads of companies like Google and Microsoft are telling you you need more science and math grads, it's probably a good idea to get more science and maths grads.

FAS courses in welding aren't much good anymore.

RichardAnd

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

And how would you know this Permabear, have you had experience to allow you to compare IT's and Universities?

Well I have and I can assure you that the eduction I got from the IT was far superior than that obtained from the big name Uni. Both degrees were in a similar field of study (and in the same city for that matter) and the IT course, teaching methods and facilities wiped the floor with anything the university had to offer.

Saying that all IT grads are useless is a generalisation but there is a kernel of truth that IT degrees are not held in very high esteem by employers. Some IT colleges like DIT and CIT (cork) are ok but places like Carlow IT or Sligo IT are very sub-par.

Manach

Actually the IT skills in FAS courses was fairly up to day, unfortunately the attitude of most of the teaching staff was poor.
At present the IT industry is stable and there are open positions. However, the business cycle is out of sync with the normal Irish macro-economy, in that when the latter was booming IT was stagnant.

PennyLane88

I think its mainly down to the actual qualifications that are acquired in this country. I graduted last year, got a first class in a well known uni (not sure if i can say which one), but i can honestly tell you that the course was rubbish - and everyone in the course constantly complained to the course directors about the actual subjects being taught (most had nothing to do with the degree, and would never need to use in the real world), the lecturing skills of most of the lecturers were dire, and the whole organisation of the 4 year course was just terrible. Put me off going back to do my masters. Couldn't do that again.

So the point i'm making is that maybe its due to the poor quality of certain courses run here in Ireland, and employers can pick up on that when they go to interview graduates?

lmimmfn

Riskymove wrote: »

ok firstly:Senior software engineer


Qualifications

The ideal candidate will possess skills and experience in some or all of the following:

• Knowledge in OO development principles and multi-tier web application design required
• 3+ years experience with ASP.NET and C#
• .NET framework 3.5+
• HTML, CSS, XML
• JavaScript / jQuery
• Ajax libraries
• SOA / Web Services (ASMX, WCF)
• MS SQL Server / T-SQL
• Automated Testing tools (NUnit, MSTest, WatIn)
• Windows Installer XML
• Structured Project Methodology

Desirable but not essential:

• Team Foundation Server
• Teradata Macros
• UML
• Data Analysis and Design
• Data Modeling

sounds a bit crap if priority is given to languages over actual modeling and design for a senior role.

thebman

lmimmfn wrote: »

sounds a bit crap if priority is given to languages over actual modeling and design for a senior role.

Well if the developer has a background in the wrong technologies they are probably of little use.

I would imagine the final candidate would have the desirables anyway. I usually consider them essentials when applying for a position if I want to have any hope of getting the job.

Desirables I usually read as it is okay to not have 2 on this list unless they are way off.

Firefox11

A second or third language is almost essential where i work as far as MNC IT qualification is concerned and they are mad looking for people and cannot find them locally.

Liam Byrne

sarumite wrote: »

...... and they were not even being thought the newer techniques.

RichardAnd's point proven, methinks.

If many of the Facebook posts, texts and internet messages that I read are indicative of CVs being sent in, I reckon that I'd have problems filling any position too.

dan_d

thebman wrote: »

We aren't alone really, many other first world countries have the same problem.

Because you can't just memorise maths and get through.

Yet our entire early education focuses on memorisation and doesn't try to teach in a way that students actually understand what they are learning.

Just *** the information at them and hope it sticks. Also it seems to be a factor that many people that grew up in construction boom Ireland think they'll just get a handy degree and not go for difficult subjects like science and that will do them in the real world little realising there are tens of thousands of people in the country with the same qualification as them making it not worth a whole lot really unless they go on to a higher level than degree in those courses.

Actually it's a bit more than that.

Our entire attitude to maths just stinks. I (as many of you know:o) did engineering in one of the major universities, starting 2001. If I had a euro for everyone (of my own age and older) who said to me along the line "oh that's full of maths isn't it...you must be really, really smart to do that". Actually, I'm probably no smarter than most people are, but I knew that I wanted engineering and to do that I had to work hard at maths. I'm not abnormally gifted in maths, by any means, but I could see that it was doable with hard work. Add to that an absolutely excellent teacher, the type of teacher that literally changes your life, and I was on my way. Yes, there was blood, sweat and tears, but I got through it and I wouldn't change my degree for anything (despite the recent bout of unemployment!!).

But back to my original point - this idea that maths is a big scarey subject, only for really intelligent geniuses is one of our biggest problems. And I would say that our older generation encourages that idea. Maybe it's a throw back to when women couldn't do hons maths, or something, I don't know. The number of Irish mothers (of my own friends) who treat maths like some kind of giant mystery is amazing. They act like it's mysterious, unknown and incredibly tough and many pass that attitude on to their kids.When you add that to poor teaching and a maths course that has a very large content, you get the problem that we have.

Maths is totally and completely doable. If you are getting decent enough marks in every other subject, there's no reason in the wide earthly world that you can't manage hons maths. Not a one. I appreciate that everybody is different, but there are a lot of people out there who are average and above at most their subjects, yet they'll do pass maths and honours everything else. I understand it's partly to do with the huge content of the course, but there's no reason that these people couldn't do hons maths. They would be well able for it.

Like I said I'm no mathematical genius. But I worked damn hard at it, because I saw the bigger picture. I absorb languages like a sponge - A1 in English and French, B1 in Irish - but I went down the maths route, because it was what I was interested in. (Btw, I'm not bragging here, I'm just trying to understand the mentality that's out there). I was also lucky because my one of my parents is an engineer, which from early in my life, took away the mysterious side to maths, and made me far more open to it. Furthermore, my sisters have all gone down the scientific/engineering route aswell.

I understand that there's problems with the syllabus and the teachers, but I also think that a lot of the problems start in the home, with the attitudes that parents have to the subject too.

Nolanger

The Leaving Cert education system is dumbed down now. It's all about soft skills and self esteem. We're producing outgoing, confident, drones who can't teach themselves anything new. Most Irish IT jobs will be moving to Romania in a few years. Wages are cheaper and they are producing world-class programmers. Won't be long before people in Ireland graduating in areas like psychology and social studies will be considered scientists!

maninasia

I think it's the time that needs to be put into honours maths to get a decent grade that is the problem, many parents/students rightly deduce that it is not an efficient way to get extra points, so if we have to blame anything it's the leaving cert points system or weighting of subjects. It may also be that students take too many subjects for the LC. Honours maths really does (or at least did in my day) need a multiple of time of some other subjects.
The reason why some people find maths intimidating is the way it is taught, it's not explained 'why' different branches of maths are useful and core ideas are skipped over too quickly. Not everybody is going to be a maths genius, that seems to be in-born, but the vast majority have the ability to understand and use the basics.

opinion guy

Nolanger wrote: »

Will there ever be a report published correlating the fall in science/maths subjects taken in the Leaving Certificate with the decrease in male school teachers?

No.
Because such a notion is absurd and archaic and not actually true there Mr Neanderthalis

Sand

Honours Maths is a fairly straightforward subject to get points in. You have a toolkit, you apply it to the problem. You get the answer right, or you get it wrong but can possibly still rack up some points by showing you understood the various stages but maybe made a small error at one particular point.

English on the other hand is much trickier to get points in, as theres no right or wrong answer. It really depends on what the reviewer thinks, within broad guidelines. Theres a lot that simply isnt in your control.

Id consider honours maths to be a vastly more efficient route to points. If its not taken up, its because people are not confident in their ability due to poor teaching standards. Teachers with Maths backgrounds/achievement are in low supply and that feeds into poor achievement by their students.

Nolanger

opinion guy wrote: »

No.
Because such a notion is absurd and archaic and not actually true there Mr Neanderthalis

What's not true?

Outkast_IRE

Also some of these jobs go unfilled cause it can take ages to fill a position due to requirements from corporate headquarters in the US .

A friend of mine has been sent for a medical for a company 2 weeks ago, a few days after she had to fill out a background check which is outsourced to an outside company , where you need to account for every day in the last 7 years of your life, it took 60mins+ to fill in properly , then middle of last week they requested copies of payslips/ contracts to prove you worked there in the last 7 years , along with copy of passport id page . Still waiting for response.

Apparently its corporate policy for every single person from a temp to highest levels of management to do this , which makes it hard to fill any postion whatsoever in less than a month after finding a candidate.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

RichardAnd's point proven, methinks.

If many of the Facebook posts, texts and internet messages that I read are indicative of CVs being sent in, I reckon that I'd have problems filling any position too.

True. Some people can't even be bothered to follow an instruction so simple as "applications by application form only which is available on our website."

I was forwarded a CV the other day that wasn't even an attachment, it was literally copied and pasted into an email. If that is the level of IT skill out there, people will be a long time unemployed.

I received another one that was for a job we had already hired someone for.

People are firing CVs at everything and anything; employers, well certainly speaking for myself, are looking for someone who really wants, and is interested in their SPECIFIC job.

Nolanger

ninty9er wrote: »

employers, well certainly speaking for myself, are looking for someone who really wants, and is interested in their SPECIFIC job.

Unfortunately with this 'education for all' nonsense in Ireland at lot of recent graduates have no genuine interest in their degree.