Reasons to propose the existance of a god.

MungBean

What reason do people have to propose the existence of god? I See a lot of atheists who enjoy the debate about god, and base their belief or lack of belief on the evidence that is available to us. And rightly so.

But why are we even asking the question ? As far as I see it the only reason we know of god/gods is from superstition and myth. Which for me means the entire thing is absurd.

In the argument for the existence of god I see alot of the cosmological side of things mentioned. What was there before the big bang. Where did matter come from. How did time begin. All valid questions but even if theres no scientific explanation to those how does that open up the possibility that a supreme being was involved more so than anything else?

I dont know what existed before the big bang. Science doesnt know. The possible answers are infinite, using that as an argument for the existence of god is absurd.

To people who are on the fence about the existence of god. What reason do you have to leave open the possibility of a supreme being existing more so that the possibility that any one of an infinite amount of things could have led to the universe being formed ?

I just cant get my head around why anyone can point the finger towards god simply because there a lack of evidence to suggest anything else. If you ask yourself why you believe in or leave the possibility open that there is a god then the answer you'll find is because of stuff you were told or read. All of which is based on myth and superstition.

Knasher

You're preaching to the choir.

Terrible joke intended.


As for the reason why we bother debating it, well personally I find it objectionable that we still don't live in a completely secular society and I feel the need to air my grievances in the hope of converting others to secularism.

MungBean

Knasher wrote: »

You're preaching to the choir.

Terrible joke intended.

My point is, as atheists we dont believe in god. Most people will tell ya that they have no belief because there is no evidence to suggest that a being exists. Very few will say they dont believe because the entire thing is absurd and nobody really has any reason to ask the question in the first place seeing as the question wouldnt exist without myths. People dont take belief in Zues or Loki or Ra seriously yet for some reason give credence to the belief that god exists.

This thread was kinda in response to the "Whats the best argument you have heard for god" thread. A lot of people seem to think that lack of knowledge about the origin of the universe leaves open the possibility that there might be a god, ignoring the infinite amount of other things that could also be possible. Atheists give too much time to the god argument because they see it as somewhat valid even though they themselves dont have any belief.

I'm just wondering why the argument itself is considered legitimate.

Knasher

I'd guess the reason is that if you dismiss somebodies arguments as absurd then they can easily dismiss yours as close-minded and the discussion doesn't really go anywhere. It's definitely much more productive to engage with somebody and to try and get them to examine their own beliefs

Also with regards to that thread, I'd imagine that anybody that replied was really stretching to come up with some sort of convincing argument, and even then, if the same arguments were thrown back at them they would never accept them because they know they have no foundation. I see it as an exercise in showing that we are willing to examine the other sides arguments and look from their perspective, we just have yet to see anything convincing.

MungBean

Knasher wrote: »

I'd guess the reason is that if you dismiss somebodies arguments as absurd then they can easily dismiss yours as close-minded and the discussion doesn't really go anywhere. It's definitely much more productive to engage with somebody and to try and get them to examine their own beliefs

Also with regards to that thread, I'd imagine that anybody that replied was really stretching to come up with some sort of convincing argument, and even then, if the same arguments were thrown back at them they would never accept them because they know they have no foundation. I see it as an exercise in showing that we are willing to examine the other sides arguments and look from their perspective, we just have yet to see anything convincing.

I dont mean to come across as close minded or ignorant of the beliefs of others, I'm open to correction and will entertain any question provided it has a legitimate reason to be asked. But the question itself is a bit absurd to me. Do you think it a valid question to ask ?

Most people dont find a belief in god they lose belief. Because belief is forced onto you as a child. If a person in modern society grew up never hearing of religion or god do you think he would ever have a reason to ask if one exists ? Maybe the point that theres no evidence covers the fact that the question itself is groundless and I'm reading too much into one part of the belief. But I just think sometimes that atheists see it as a valid question but with no evidence to support it.

nozzferrahhtoo

Skunkle wrote: »

What reason do people have to propose the existence of god?

I think I know where you are coming from though I think it is not as clear as it could be. I am with you in thinking there is little reasons to treat it as a valid question. One of the only reasons it is treated as valid that I can think of is purely that those who subscribe to the idea of a creator god entity have strength of numbers. That does not MAKE the question valid but it sure puts us in a position where we are often forced to act as if it is.

As for the reasons why people ask such a question or why they think there is such an entity etc… the problem is that the reasons are many. Even if you could take one of the main reasons for people thinking there is a god and “cure” it, you would not eradicate belief or religion because there are many other reasons too.

What those reasons are I could list all day, but here are a sample few which (anecdotal for me alone) are the ones I most commonly come across in my travels:

1) Ignorance. God of the Gaps. There are things people do not know, because they have not learned them or bothered to try. There are also things that we as an entire species do not know, because we have not discovered or explained them yet. Humans commonly think that AN answer is better than NO answer at all, and so since god entity is AN answer, they run with it.

2) Wishful thinking. Meaning. People want to think there is a meaning to all this. They do not want to live in a universe where such meaning does not exist. So they convince themselves there is a god in order to get that meaning.

3) Fear of death. Some people are just afraid to die so they invent afterlives and the like to allay that fear.

4) Personification overdrive. We have a wonderful tendency as Humans to personify aspects of our universe and the human condition. This is a good thing resulting in beautiful art, literature and folklore. The bad side is that some people start to think those personifications are real, can be understood, communicated with and have desires. Personifying the entire universe itself is just one step further. Calling it “god” is ok. The problem is people start then thinking that this “god” actually exists… and even cares about things like who we have sex with and in what position.

5) Intentional Stance or hyper active agency detection. We have evolved a safety mechanism of seeing intent behind everything around us before anything else. A weird rustling in the bush will make us ask “who is there and what do they/it want?”. The evolutionary reasons for this are clear. You will not die for thinking something or someone is in the bush and it turns out there is not. If you assume first there is not however and there actually is… you are at a disadvantage. However although this is a good thing… it means we see intent, design and agency where there is none.

6) Pattern seeking. Similar to 5, we see patterns. It is one of the reasons we are the scientific civilization we are today. However we all too often see patterns when they are not actually there. This is a bad thing, but again like 5 it leads us to see intent, design and agency where there is none.

7) Childhood indoctrination. Many of us just learn what our parents teach us and then later in life simply refuse to re-evaluate that information. People will hold on to what their parents told them and be very stubborn to let it go, regardless of how absurd or evidence devoid the information is.

This is a short list and I could add many more. As could many users of this forum. The point is not to list 100s of them however, but to show that the reason people think there is a god or that thinking there is one is valid, are many fold and there is therefore no easy answer to your questions.

b318isp

IMO, there is one (non human) avenue which an argument about a creator has some credence today : the existence of everything. The principle of the universe is very difficult to explain compellingly in lay-man's language with our current level of scientific knowledge. In the absence of this, some may explain its existence on some form of instigator. Of course, this cosmological argument has its rebuffs.

nozzferrahhtoo

The other issue with that point b318isp is that you assume that nothing is default and the something is what needs explaining.

Why is it not just as valid to say that the onus is on those to explain why there should be "nothing" in the first place.

Especially given the people touting the "Why is there something not nothing" argument for god entirely fail to answer the same question about their god and just declare that that god has always existed.

Comically they miss the fact that always existing is just as valid in the universe argument as it is with god. The only difference between the two being at least we have evidence there IS a universe before we start wondering if it "always" existed. More than can be said for their god idea.

Bob Cratchet

Infinity is a big place lads, keep looking.

MungBean

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Infinity is a big place lads, keep looking.

And while we are looking do you plan on poking your head out the door ? Infinity is as you said a big place, why confine yourself to ignorance ?

Ellis Dee

Skunkle wrote: »

What reason do people have to propose the existence of god? I See a lot of atheists who enjoy the debate about god, and base their belief or lack of belief on the evidence that is available to us. And rightly so.

But why are we even asking the question ? As far as I see it the only reason we know of god/gods is from superstition and myth. Which for me means the entire thing is absurd.

In the argument for the existence of god I see alot of the cosmological side of things mentioned. What was there before the big bang. Where did matter come from. How did time begin. All valid questions but even if theres no scientific explanation to those how does that open up the possibility that a supreme being was involved more so than anything else?

I dont know what existed before the big bang. Science doesnt know. The possible answers are infinite, using that as an argument for the existence of god is absurd.

To people who are on the fence about the existence of god. What reason do you have to leave open the possibility of a supreme being existing more so that the possibility that any one of an infinite amount of things could have led to the universe being formed ?

I just cant get my head around why anyone can point the finger towards god simply because there a lack of evidence to suggest anything else. If you ask yourself why you believe in or leave the possibility open that there is a god then the answer you'll find is because of stuff you were told or read. All of which is based on myth and superstition.

The finger could be pointed at a Frying Spaghetti Monster or a Trans-Dimensional Snake or an Inter-Galactic Universal Fixer and Setter-Upper, for that matter. Anything, because there is exactly the same amount of evidence for its existence as there is for the existence of a god - none, zilch, nada, bugger all.

I could claim that I know for certain that there is a world somewhere in the Universe where everyone speaks English with a Westmeath accent, there is no need to work as the planet is blessed with beer springs and trees on which huge joints grow, the women all have lovely firm breasts, but on their back, and people spend most of their time dancing slow foxtrots ...;)

Most sane people would tell me I'm talking bull stool and challenge me to provide proof of my claim. Fair enough, but oddly they don't ask the same thing of the god-botherers who make equally absurd claims. :rolleyes:

Bob Cratchet

Skunkle wrote: »

And while we are looking do you plan on poking your head out the door ? Infinity is as you said a big place, why confine yourself to ignorance ?

I don't have to. I found him. If you're intrested keep looking, if not don't bother.

Turtwig

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

I don't have to. I found him. If you're intrested keep looking, if not don't bother.

That's not very helpful. You told us infinity is a big place and yet you found the answer, the secret, the epiphany moment! Please share it with us, give us some indications how we might find it.

nozzferrahhtoo

This is exactly what the bible prescribes too with the phrase "seek and you will find".

Of course you will. Thats how belief in god works. IF you assume there is one and you view the world in that light then you will time and time again find confirmation of that idea.

The problem with this is that you will find such confirmation with anything you assume.

Just look at the 23ists. The best example of religious thinking that I have ever seen. They think.... so many of them that there is a jim carey film on the subject.... that the number 23 controls everything. They look.... and of course they find.... for the number 23 everywhere.

What they fail to notice of course.... is that you could do the same thing with any number, especially prime numbers....

IF you want to find god you will. If you want to find 23 you will too. It just goes to show that one can find something that is not there.... if one is willing to look hard enough.

Bob Cratchet

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

This is exactly what the bible prescribes too with the phrase "seek and you will find".

Of course you will. Thats how belief in god works. IF you assume there is one and you view the world in that light then you will time and time again find confirmation of that idea.

The problem with this is that you will find such confirmation with anything you assume.

Just look at the 23ists. The best example of religious thinking that I have ever seen. They think.... so many of them that there is a jim carey film on the subject.... that the number 23 controls everything. They look.... and of course they find.... for the number 23 everywhere.

What they fail to notice of course.... is that you could do the same thing with any number, especially prime numbers....

IF you want to find god you will. If you want to find 23 you will too. It just goes to show that one can find something that is not there.... if one is willing to look hard enough.

Newsflash : The numbers 2 and 3 exist, so does the number 23.

Delirium

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Newsflash : The numbers 2 and 3 exist, so does the number 23.

I believe the post was referring to the 23 enigma

the culture of deference

Skunkle wrote: »

If a person in modern society grew up never hearing of religion or god do you think he would ever have a reason to ask if one exists ?

We have an answer for this.

Born in Ireland likelyhood of being RC = huge

Born in middle east likelyhood of being RC = zero

Born poor and uneducated in africa (Where you have exposure to RC indoctrination) likelyhood of being RC = huge

Born in south america poor and uneducated ETC

the culture of deference

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

I don't have to. I found him. If you're intrested keep looking, if not don't bother.

who did you find bob

nozzferrahhtoo

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Newsflash : The numbers 2 and 3 exist, so does the number 23.

Not sure I get your point. Even less convinced that you got mine.