Rule: Marker moved after ball picked up on green

Whyner

I walked up to my ball, placed the marker behind it and picked up my ball. I turned around and took a few steps off the green. I then turned back and my marker was not there. It was behind me, just off the green

I didn't see how it moved and neither did my partners. I took a 1 shot penalty and placed it where I thought it was. Could I have placed it without a penalty seeing as it was directly attributable to lifting my ball? Wasn't in contention so took 1 just in case. Both partners were very experienced and didn't know either

What's the ruling?

I looked it up but am still not sure.

20-1. Lifting and Marking
A ball to be lifted under the Rules may be lifted by the player, his
partner or another person authorised by the player. In any such case,
the player is responsible for any breach of the Rules.
Lifting, Dropping and Placing;
Playing from Wrong Place
Rule 20
86 Rule 19 / 20
Rule 20 87
The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule
that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a
penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not
replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule
but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.
If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the
ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must
be replaced.There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or
ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the
position of or lifting the ball. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of
one stroke under this Rule or Rule 18-2a.

G1032

Whyner wrote: »

I walked up to my ball, placed the marker behind it and picked up my ball. I turned around and took a few steps off the green. I then turned back and my marker was not there. It was behind me, just off the green

I didn't see how it moved and neither did my partners. I took a 1 shot penalty and placed it where I thought it was. Could I have placed it without a penalty seeing as it was directly attributable to lifting my ball? Wasn't in contention so took 1 just in case. Both partners were very experienced and didn't know either

I think there is a contradiction here.
You didn't see how it had moved but yet you can say that it was directly attributable to lifting your ball.
If you didn't see it happen then you cannot say that it moved while you marked the ball.
It could have moved after the ball was lifted, unlikely as that may seem.
It's a strange one alright and IMO you probably did the right thing in calling the penalty.

Also - Is there a difference between lifting that ball and marking the ball? Is lifting the ball an act done after it has been marked? I would say it is.

Whyner

Yes, I think you're right. As I didn't see it move in the act of lifting my ball I could have clipped it with my putter turning around (even though I know for a fact that I didn't)

I think it stuck to my thumb and fell off when I turned around.

I still think it can be argued that it was related and accidental, interpretation is key.

What if it blows away?

Dtoffee

I was of the opinion that you should immediately admit the error (as you did) and seek agreement with your playing partners as to where the marker is to be repositioned. If your partners agree it was an accident and agree on a spot, then you can replace the marker / ball without penalty ..... somewhat similar to a dog or a bird lifting you ball, you are entitled to play from where your last shot ended.

No doubt there are differing opinions so maybe where you need to go for an answer is 'decisions on the rules of golf' in the R&A site.

G1032

Whyner wrote: »

Yes, I think you're right. As I didn't see it move in the act of lifting my ball I could have clipped it with my putter turning around (even though I know for a fact that I didn't)

I think it stuck to my thumb and fell off when I turned around.

I still think it can be argued that it was related and accidental, interpretation is key.

What if it blows away?

Whyner
I just looked up the decisions. It looks like you'd have been OK to replace the marker without penalty.
Its Decision 20-1/12
I'm reading it in a book so will look for link to it and post for you.

Heres a link:
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=20&subRuleNum=1
See decision 20-1/12 on right hand side of screen

LostPassword

It looks to me like ruling 20-1/5.5 or 20-1/6 should apply depending on whether the movement of the marker was directly attributable to specific act of marking the ball.

If you moved it away at any stage between placing it and standing up after marking it, there's no penalty (you were bending down specifically to mark the ball), if you place it, stand up and then move it, one stroke penalty.

Whyner

I think a 1 stroke penalty was correct as I wasn't 100% that it stuck to my thumb or putter (directly attributable) so therefore it may have stuck to the sole of my shoe (clown). I think the ruling around this area is clear enough. Thanks for replies.

mike12

Hi,
Remember this happened to Clarke a couple of years ago he tapped down his marker after he picked up his ball and it stuck to the bottom of his putter. There was no penalty as it was in the act of marking his ball. Poulter last year in Duabi i think dropped his ball on the marker and it moved and that was a penalty as it was not in the act of marking.
It was a tough one to call as the only way it seems you marker could have moved was during the act of marking it.
Mike